EPT
Great post and good thread to think upon.
Why Zerg is Good - Page 4
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Bright]
United States118 Posts
Great post and good thread to think upon. | ||
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MuTT
United States398 Posts
Your conclusion proves my point; zerg doesn't have much room to grow. Idra keeps his queen pretty low with spawn larvae and i can't see a huge difference in say a year when they pros perfect it. As for transfusion and contamination its not like these spells are free and there is just raw potential that is unused. It wouldn't be wise to spend 100 gas just for more contamination and the same goes for the queen. As for nydus we have seen them defensively in bw so we know what they can do and we have seen them offensively a bunch already. Don't make the mistake of appealing to ignorance and saying all your wildest dreams lie ahead because you don't know otherwise. TL;DR While zerg has some room to grow, it is nothing compared to the potential protoss and terran have. | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:20 tollz wrote: i agree with everything Raelcun said EXCEPT the part about Zerg's Air, pheonixes are a huge threat if used corrrectly, and well all i gotta say about Terran is "god damn vikings" Vikings suck vs muta.. Qzy Denmark. July 22 2010 08:23. Posts 135 The only problem zerg has atm, is the inability to scout proberly. Yes you can sacrifice an overlord, but until you get lair up, and get the overlord speed upgrade, you are pretty much fucked, if a toss decides to give you an early push, cos you wont see it coming that easy. They gotta change overlord upgrade to hatch, and not lair. And do i really need to mention all the hardcounters to zerg, with their inability to kill anything that flies? =). All you have to do is sit an overlord outside the ramp of the main, pretty much every map has a spot where you can have vision of the choke and still be able to save ovie if it gets attacked by early sentry or stalker. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:23 Qzy wrote: The only problem zerg has atm, is the inability to scout properly. Yes you can sacrifice an overlord, but until you get lair up, and get the overlord speed upgrade, you are pretty much fucked, if a toss decides to give you an early push, cos you wont see it coming that easy. They gotta change overlord upgrade to hatch, and not lair. And do i really need to mention all the hardcounters to zerg, with their inability to kill anything that flies? =). drone scout? queens and hydras to kill early air? | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
how bout you show us? edit - dont want buffs, i think ZvP is Z favored I just want changes to ZvT | ||
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Two
United States95 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:31 billyX333 wrote: instead of telling us how bout you show us? How would he show you when Beta is down and SC2 hasn't released yet...? | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:34 Two wrote: How would he show you when Beta is down and SC2 hasn't released yet...? he had since february its convenient he write this during the down time | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
The problem with the nydus is that often you're entering a situation almost blind, you can do some damage with a hit/run, but it's difficult for it to be cost-effective. | ||
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:28 DanielD wrote: Vikings suck vs muta.. In an only viking vs muta fight, I totally agree. But in a mech strategy, some vikings (9range I think) in combinaison of a thor can be very strong against muta. You have to protect your vikings to exploit their range. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:30 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: So? Wow it requires focus and APM thats good for a competitive game to have a high skill cap. Sorry but easy to counter that argument. And you underestimate the power of a solid tech switch, being around some of the best players because of my position in Root Gaming and my role as a caster in iCCup TV a devastating tech switch can really demolish people. Zerg has such a great capability to play mind games by combining their ability to switch compositions with their quick unit production. Go into an engagement trade even or even come out slightly worse and then have a completely DIFFERENT army on them immediately. Players don't know how to react to that and frequently will make mistakes. Also early game sauron zerg strategies are still possible with roaches even at 2 food just because when larva spit is utilized correctly and you get your creep spread you're able to keep roaches in their face aggressively while expanding... it's disgusting how powerful Zerg can be when a player makes no mistakes. Notice I didnt say zerg is great, zerg is OP, zerg is the best. I said zerg is good. Zerg can stay in there with the other races and win just like the other two and people need to stop saying Zerg is underpowered, because really it isn't. I don't think that was his point. He saying something along the lines that with equal skilled players, the zerg has to "work" harder with stupid larva mechanics and such. While a protoss is free to use APM more productively. That's how it would work in theory. Even when I draw zerg as random my average APM is 30 points higher than with protoss or zerg. And I'd hardly call pressing a button every 40 seconds contributing to a skill cap when it's easily circumvented with an out-of-game timer. | ||
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Pocketpurple
United States80 Posts
Vikings suck vs muta.. umm excuse me? All you have to do is sit an overlord outside the ramp of the main, pretty much every map has a spot where you can have vision of the choke and still be able to save ovie if it gets attacked by early sentry or stalker. you obviously don't play zerg. | ||
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HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:34 MoreFasho wrote: The problem with the nydus is that often you're entering a situation almost blind, you can do some damage with a hit/run, but it's difficult for it to be cost-effective. Nydus are not just to pop in your opponent base. It's about getting more mobility. Some actual maps are just too one dimensional (steppes of war) to use them to their fully potential. But the map where they are very strong, Desert Oasis, is banned from tourneys etc. On bigger maps I'm pretty sure we would see a lot of more nydus worms. | ||
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Hann1bal
United States46 Posts
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration. Ultras didn't become a viable unit (and that is still debatable) until they made heavy modifications to the unit based on this type of input. Zerg was an after thought for this game and we are simply discussing what we feel isn't working with this race in order to facilitate these types of changes. People are getting a little jumpy because they want their race to be playing its best on launch day, I feel it is vital that we continue to have these types of debates to help Blizzard observe what is happening at all levels of play and make the changes they feel necessary. | ||
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NATO
United States459 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:54 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: @Fabled, Did you watch Sheth vs Huk? He had Creep at Huk's door on big maps like Lost Temple and Metalopolis in the early game and used that to do aggressive Hydra attacks. To aggressively spread creep you need more than just creep tumours he was using overlords to help them spread faster by having patches of creep for the creep tumour to target by the time the cooldown was ready. Also Fungal Growth > Dropships so kind of, warp-ins are powerful but usually early on the zerg has a free reign of the map so if they're aggressively hunting down pylons they can't really. Nydus networks have been brought up in the past but usually by people like Avilo who say that you need to make multiple networks and build 10 worms at the same time. Putting one worm in each base and having an infestor ready to fungal growth to delay the army so that you can get your army out to defend is an extremely potent strategy. Yes some of these points have been brought up before but it doesnt change the fact that even the top zergs havent fully utilized all of the race's mechanics. I watched it, but I don't remember, I'll have to take a look, but I wouldn't personally say lair tech is early game, nor are hydras. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding is. Personally I feel there is vast amounts of potential in having mass dropships that enable you to drop an entire army in a Zerg main, snipe a hive and some critical tech buildings, and fight the units that are reinforcing into you. Recall that when you do so, you'll have a major positioning advantage when Zerg rushes back to the base, as buildings will be in the way and lings will arrive much faster (and in a line) to your troops, making him have to wait all the way for the other Roaches/Hydras. Merely the threat of a doom drop from Terran is in itself giving the Terran tons of potential (similar to how merely the potential of DT in SC1 forced Terrans to get early turrets). Then you have all your dropships to heal your stimmed units that are taking down the buildings, etc. Concerning Nyduses, the units come out really slowly, and I doubt with the speed of Terran units that your entire Nydus at multiple bases would be viable, but who knows. We can see with nydus canals in SC1 that usually you don't even have enough army out in time, and the units through the canals come out a million times faster, and you could utilize Dark Swarm and lurkers in small numbers to delay for much more time (fungal... not so much I feel, but I have definitely used it to delay army movement before like you suggest and buy time). I just have a massive problem with the maxed army Zerg, I've had numerous games where I've sat at 200/200 vs a 2 base toss, with tons of minerals to spare, and lost the game. My most recent game I can recall was a game where I gained a massive early base advantage, had 5 base vs 2 base, 200/200 and 5k minerals and 2k gas in the bank. Stupidly, I didn't get an ultra cavern vs the Toss, but instead stuck with Ling/Roach/Hydra (and outupgrading him). As he moved out to secure his third, I burrowed my roaches and popped out on top of his army, and moved in wiht hydra support, but he demolished them. I had around ~35-40 larvae saved up, and instantly started reinforcing. However, his ball was able to come in and power through all my separated weak reinforcements, and he reinforced his ball with warp gate units before mine even hatched. I got annihilated. Imo, that's just broken. Even if I could have won with Ultralisks (I'm near positive if i just built an ultra cavern and like 10 ultras I could have cleaved with 5 armor through his mass stalker/sentry/colossus ball). But I shouldn't be forced to use them to have even a remote chance at fighting his army of tier 1. It's moments like that where I just think Zerg is broken lategame, and it's just as bad if not worse vs Terran. | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:43 Pocketpurple wrote: umm excuse me? you obviously don't play zerg. Yes, cost for cost viking suck vs muta. Obviously viking are good over marines or turrets but that's not what the guy I was responding to said. And... I have played Z. I don't main Z, but it sure as hell didn't take me a long time to figure out that you can sit an ovie right outside a toss' main ramp/choke (after your inital ovie scout does his run-thru ofc) and watch for early aggression (2 gate, missing buildings, etc etc). Proxy is another story as you can scout that the same as any other race would, with workers. | ||
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thisblindman
Philippines50 Posts
I'm seeing a lot of Zerg whining around the forums, but watching a lot of YouTube replays, it shows that very few people are actually using Zerg to its full capacity. For example, Roach can move while burrowed, and yet how many Zerg replays actually utilize that terrific ability of the Roach to ambush enemy lines taking away tanks and Thors and then burrowing again and moving to safety? I've seen that once and it was a replay by Cool, a Korean player if I'm not mistaken. And again if I'm not mistaken, Koreans own with Zerg. Koreans are doing something amazing with Zerg that players from the US and EU need to learn. As a Terran player, I'm very envious of the Zerg's Nydus Network, the ability to move an entire squad of 200/200 units from one side of the map to the other in a blink of an eye. Again very few Zerg replays showcase that Zerg talent. Zerg needs a slight upgrade, but not an overhaul. Zerg isn't as underpowered as most people make it to be. | ||
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Azile
United States339 Posts
Every single one of your points is either a double edged sword or a requirement for the race to even be functional, not a reason zerg is good. On July 22 2010 08:48 thisblindman wrote: For example, Roach can move while burrowed, and yet how many Zerg replays actually utilize that terrific ability of the Roach to ambush enemy lines taking away tanks and Thors and then burrowing again and moving to safety? Do you even play zerg? Have you made roaches against any decent T mech? You do know what scan is right? As a Terran player Oh ok, well forgive me then you seem very qualified to tell us all about how great zerg is. | ||
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Qzy
Denmark1121 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:30 Backpack wrote: drone scout? queens and hydras to kill early air? Again, if you don't see a hidden tech going on, you'll only have 1 queen per hatch. Drone scout into a closed off base? I don't get that one. If you mean the initial drone, it gets sniped off when the first stalker pops in, and then you are in the dark. I wouldn't call hydra for "early" as it's a tier2 unit. | ||
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shlomo
258 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Tech Switches Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time. This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units. This is already offset by the fact that Zerg really has a very limited number of viable combat units compared to T or P. No, Queen doesn't count as a combat unit because really how viable is she in an offensive even supported by creep? So woohoo, we can tech switch, but considering the actual number of options our opponent needs to worry about in a given matchup at a given point in time, this is really not that much of a strong point, sorry. Is he going to make hydra, or is he gonna make roach for ground? Muta or.. muta for air? Oh boy, the thinking our opponents have to do because of these "tech switches"! Must be so hard... On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Mobility The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game. Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye. Fungal Growth used effectively can stop the mobility of their opponents completely. Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game with the exeption of the use of mass recall by protoss but that has limited uses when compared to a good nydus network setup. Mobility my ass. The only really fast unit is the zergling and KINDA the mutalisk. Everything else is just OKAY (okay does not qualify as "fast"), when it's not completely terrible off-creep like the hydra. Nydus costs a crapload of resources and is easily spotted by a competent opponent using depots/pylons to cover the outskirts of his bases, not to mention [b]the units coming out one-at-a-time really really limits its viability[b] in situations where the opponent catches you right after it finishes. Edit: it also severely limits the possibility of using it as a defense mechanism across your various bases. On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Unit Production Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary. This is already offset by the fact that most all of Zerg's unit are weak as shit. Yeah, that's why Zerg is allowed to respawn faster. But clearly, a brilliant mind like you fails to comprehend that at this point in time or thinks we have some really strong point here when the counterbalance is already present. It's different yes, is it a strength? Considering the viability of say, Zerglings compared to SC1's, or the average supply cost of Z units in SC2, I'd say it's really not that big of a deal. Edit: It was actually a big deal back when we still had a less than 2 supply unit other than the Zergling. But as we all know, it's not the case anymore. On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Conclusion Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest: Typical BS statement that comes off as "hi, you top Zerg players are pretty terrible but it's ok because I'm here to teach you how to use those mechanics to their fullest". Until you go out there and win some tournaments to show us how awesome you are, do us all a favor and refrain from using ridiculous statements like that. We'll all be grateful. It's like you think you're so goddamn smarter than the top Zergs right now, I mean these guys are so dumb they really haven't given those mechanics a try, you know? GOSH! On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
rofllololol Yeah really, Zerg players are bad because they just haven't thought about using Nydus properly yet, or transfuse! I mean really why don't we just build 50 queens? Also thanks for reminding us that top Zergs are bad at larva injection and that it's part of the problem. I'm not sure how much of a chance that leaves to actual non-pro players to play Zerg semi-competitively, but hey, who gives a shit, I'm Raelcun hear me roar. On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. Yeah, when the Zerg player is way ahead and able to dump all these resources into the otherwise borderline useless melee upgrades, Ultras are "somewhat" used. Wonderful. I look forward to seeing your mind-blowing performance as a competitive Zerg player in the near future. Any other expert advice? Picking up Adrenal Glands maybe? lolol | ||
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