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On July 22 2010 09:43 Floophead_III wrote:
The only thing zerg needs is scourge. Scourge prevent the stupidity that is infinity voidrays or vikings. Scourge also make spire play more versatile. Zerg units have to deal damage quickly, corruptors are not viable units 90% of the time because zerg armies die too fast. Corruptors just take too long to kill things.
PLEASE ADD SCOURGE!
That I would like to see. We might not necessarily need them but it would be fun, micro wise.
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On July 22 2010 09:45 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 09:42 Bibbit wrote:On July 22 2010 09:38 DooMDash wrote:
I love Zerg in SC2, far from bland. You guys must not have played SC1 original hah. What? I thought it would be the opposite. People from BW seeing that what made zerg what it was is missing (less swarmy, less mobility unless you're actually good, etc...) I don't know why you think zerg is less swarmy, other than hydras being more powerful then they were in BW. I still think they feel similar to BW's zerg, and they are actually faster (well lings are) when they are on creep. To be honest I think people are just finding different play styles that are less dependent on numbers and speed with the new hydras, you just have to play a certain way to 100% swarm your opponent.
Note that I was just trying to justify why I think some people might be unpleased with zerg. But still, the lack of a really massable unit (bar the lings) just makes it a different feel than SC1 zerg, which is what I think some people might not be liking.
I wouldn't have switched from terran in BW to zerg in sc2 if I didn't find them cool. 
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I think Raelcun brought up a few really good points and all those people who are saying "who the fuck are you? did you win tournaments or so, if you can't live up to the things you preach just shut the fuck up". Where the hell are you guys coming from? You don't have to play soccer to say, wow, that pass was dumb and you don't need to play the violin in order to commentate on a mistake the musician did that led to a few clunky parts in his play, the only thing you have to do is to somehow understand the concepts and/or see how it can be done in a better way.
And to all those players who are complaining about a lack of diversity in zergs army compositions, you have to feel that way if everything you're relying on is a few zerglings early, sometimes mutalisks and the rest of the time hydra/roach. So as soon as the game is released just press F12 to see that the infestation pit isn't only there to enable hive tech and that upgrading to 3/3 isn't the sole purpose of having a hive.
mhm, i guess after raging for quite a bit, i want to mention a thing that isn't mentioned nearly as often as it should be, because besides granting creep creep tumors do give sight of the area around them, so in the later stages of the game good zergs should always have a good sense of what the opponent is doing and where his army should be at the moment, that combined with the high mobility on creep should lead to even more exploitable situations in which you can damage your opponent badly.
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These are all cliches about the Zerg. I'll break it down...
On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Tech Switches
Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time.
This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units.
Not true. Zerg play is very much determined by gas usage. If I was playing mass hydralisks, and I plop down a spire, I cannot suddenly go mass mutalisks (not enough gas). If I want to go ultralisks, I also need more vespene geyers being mined. In order to do this, I need more drones (which takes away more larva). And I need more expansions.
It is a myth that a Zerg player can easily switch from one tech to another. A Zerg player cannot go from Ultralisks to suddenly go Broodlords. A Zerg player is actually heavily invested in a tech direction and is difficult to swap. For proof of this, look at how most Zerg rarely change their direction during a game. They might get air units if collossi or other air units are on the map. They might go hydralisks if enemy air keeps harassing them. But this is no different from any other race.
Zerg are invested in upgrades from overlord upgrades, evolution chamber upgrades, spire upgrades, and all of these push Zerg to stay on their earlier path. Many Zerg go mass hydralisks because hydralisks are good against almost anything. If Zerg tech switching was easy, we wouldn't see mass hydralisks so often.
Mobility
The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game. Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye. Fungal Growth used effectively can stop the mobility of their opponents completely. Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game with the exeption of the use of mass recall by protoss but that has limited uses when compared to a good nydus network setup.
The 'use Zerg mobility' (against mech) is a myth fabricated by Day[9] which people are erroneously repeating like gospel. Zerg are actually the most immobile race in the game. Here is why:
The Zerg dropship requires two upgrades and, even then, it is the slowest dropship in the game.
Zerg have no units that can attack while cloaked like Banshees or Dark Templars. (Infestors with their one lame spell don't really count.)
Zerg have no cliff traveling units like the Reapers or Colossi which severely punishes Zerg on certain maps.
Some units are absolutely horrible off the creep. Queens never leave the creep, for example. As TLO admitted, hydralisks are bad off the creep.
Nydus Canals are an example of immobility as they are structures that do not move. They are also very expensive and are rarely successful when used offensively.
Since drones and Zerg units come from the same larva, drones being killed is a harsher penalty on Zerg. Replenishing the drone count comes from larva that could have been used to make more units. Because of how fragile losing drones is, Zerg are often sitting in their bases more than they should be.
Protoss and Terran are far more mobile. Terran buildings can literally fly around. Their dropship doubles as a healer. Protoss can literally warp in units from any pylon on the map. The Protoss dropship also doubles as warping in units wherever it is placed.
Saying the Zerg are the 'most mobile' race is absolutely wrong. They are the most immobile race.
Unit Production
Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary.
This is simply not true. This is only true for the late-game. Most of the game, the Zerg is not producing fighting units. The Zerg is often just making drones.
The problem with this 'unit production' notion is that Zerg drones and units all come from the same larva. Protoss and Terran have separate facilities to produce their harvestors and separate facilities to produce their units. This is one reason why unit production is faster for Protoss and Terran in the early and mid game.
And the 'late game' argument doesn't make sense because Zerg usually have more expansions than their opponent. If a Protoss or a Terran has more expansions than their zerg opponent, their unit production will be higher.
My point is that unit production, late game, is determined more by resources, and that unit production is favored in the Terran and Protoss's favor in the early and mid game. The only way for the Zerg to catch up is to expand across the map.
A Protoss with many warp gates will replenish its army way faster than the Zerg and the units can warp straight into the middle of the battlefield.
ConclusionZerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest: - Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up)
- Transfusion strategies
- Contamination
- Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively
Are you joking?
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada.
Who are you to say what people may or may not comment on? And why do you assume Zerg players do not know how to play their own race?
Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat.
You're missing out the part that Blizzard totally revamped how weapons worked and did constant patches to make the ultralisk more viable.
There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration.
This is a strawman argument. That is not what people are saying.
What people absolutely must understand that the problem with the Zerg goes beyond balance. It is that the Zerg are not that fun. When I win as Zerg, I feel more 'lucky' than anything else. Playing Zerg against Terran often is not an enjoyable experience.
The entire purpose of playing a video game is for fun. Zerg players are complaining not because many are losing to, say, Terran mech, but because the game is not fun for them at all in such a situation. It feels like Zerg doesn't have many options.
What Zerg players are saying is that the Zerg race does not feel finished and needs to be fleshed out some more. Blizzard, of course, has their hands tied because all their attention is with launching the game. But after the launch, expect to see Blizzard wade into this issue.
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Shhhhh - Don't tell everyone  . Ya I agree with almost all that you said.
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On July 22 2010 07:17 Elmers_Cow wrote:
Zergs not broken, just boring.
wait... does boring=broken?
help me out here Boring to you, maybe, but that just means they don't match your play style. Thats why there is 2 other races d00d. I LOVE Zerg and their style, macro, macro, macro and everything Raelcun stated above. Thats why I always tell people to quit bitching about how IMBA other races are because they can't play Zerg correctly.
Oh yeah and as stated above, the creep tumors could be called IMBA, they give speed/health bonuses AND when you creep the map you have vision of every thing. When the QQ happens think of that because neither Terran or Protoss can have that much mobility or maphacks.
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Give me mutalisk micro or give me death
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I find it appalling you make such an assine post that's so full of shit and random talking points then never bother to respond to any post that points out the blatant errors in your line of thinking. The worst of it is you are actually some what involved in the community and cast games, the horror.
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i think the spine crawler + queen +creep expansion push has not been explored much.
spine are mobile, and are pretty much meant to be used offensively as well. on top of being able to heal them, and being mobile, i think the spine crawler is pretty much the extra zerg unit.
in a game, if players are diligent about creep expansion they can expand it up to the base, plant sunkens, and basically have healable, durable seige tanks (less range than tanks of course, but still).
In straight up unit to unit confrontations, i tseems zerg are usually at a disadvantage against any P ball with colossi or T ball with tanks or splash. of course zerg is pretty much required to flank, but throwing spines into the mix can add a bit of forcing the other race to back off before 12 seconds, as you push and gain ground.
Think about it, 150 minerals for a healable, durable spine crawler will just do a whole lot more than 6 lings. (ling of course will be all about mobility, which is its own niche).
it would seem that the spine crawler can pretty much be used as a medium seige tank.
also, baneling drops to the econ line. comon.
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Zerg are NOT underpowered, just more difficult to play effecitvely.
There are 2 main issues:
1) Zerg has no lair tech 'counter' to the long range splash of siege / colossi. This makes the game for the zerg a defensive struggle of poking and harass until you can get the required units out.
2) Because of 1), to play on par with reasonably powerful protoss or terran builds, zerg needs to be more skilled in order to survive to the point of the required units. This means:
Lower league players can execute the t/p build to hurt the z, but z can't play effectively enough to win (most of the time). So there is a skill gap between being able to play t/p long range splash builds, and being able to defend it as z.
This adds up to the QQ of zerg
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Macavity: +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1
I would also like to add that I really really hate when people say "zerg players just need to get better at using zerg mechanics." Is that not a problem in itself? Protoss players literally just have to use chrono boost and maybe be clever with their pylon placements. Raelcun would have zerg players constantly spread creep on every cooldown, use larvae injection on every hatchery with no delay, as well as pop nydus worms all over the map and mass tech switch all game. Am I missing something here? The problem isn't that zerg sucks or is underpowered. The problem is that zerg takes considerably more apm to play and is, as others have said, unenjoyable when trying to break terran.
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Tech switches:
The Zerg Units don't offer enough diversity to really get an advantage of a tech switch. Also, they have fewer Units than the other Races and it's easier to be prepared for everything Zerg can throw at you.. even if they can tech switch fast.
Mobility:
You need Mobility to be able to defend your spreaded Bases. So, often your mobility isn't used offensively, but is necessary to be able to hold off harrass. It's more a necessity than an advantage.
Also, the Maps are really small and there won't be bigger ones in the Ladder Map Pool. Probably, Zerg would easily be the strongest Race if the Maps where as big as in BW, but they said they wanted to keep it small and noobfriendly.
Unit Production:
It's the way Zerg works. It can be an advantage, but it's also very hard to manage. It's defenitely where the strenght of Zerg lies. But with all the Harrassement options the other Races have, it's really hard to get a good economy running.
All in all, Zerg has the potential to be quite good, but the opponents seem to have it a little to easy from stopping you to use your advantages.
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Could you imagine how purely AWESOME it would be to split 25 scourge into 5 groups, and just instantly decimate 5 colossi? Just thinking about it gives me chills!
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First of all i want to say that i'm 60% zerg 40%random during the beta.
So first of all you say, "Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time."
So you're saying that all you have to do is tech to lair and then you can make 20 hydras? no you can't because you have to make a hydra den, so then you have to make mutas, well you got a hydra den and a lair yet still you have to make a spire, so you can say that a factory to make siege tanks is like a hydra den to make hydra, same with starport and spire. You CANNOT make a lair then make any teir 2 units you want.
Then you say "The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game." This is true, if you have creep to your expansions you can me mobile to them, but how does creep let you be aggressive at your opponent when even on the smallest maps or closest spawns in the "early game" you cannot use your queens energy to make tumors all the way to the middle of the map, or if you want on 2 bases you can make a 3rd queen but imo i'd like to not waste 150 on that.
And then..."Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye." I dono how many networks you have used, but it is not a "blink of an eye" b/c you can only load 1 unit into the network at a time and it isn't even that fast, THEN you have to spew it all out again on the other side, so yes they can be good on some large maps if you wanna put your army across the map away from you're opponent.
"Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game" yes they are capable of it, but how much maneuvering is a protoss or terran going to let you have on steppes of war? or close spawns on kulas?
"Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest:Contamination"
Well see the thing is...if you are spending 50minerals and 100gas per overseer, and are getting more than 1-2, you will have a smaller army, ALTHOUGH i do agree in certain situation there might be some strats to constantly delay collosi. ect. but i don't think it is much of a difference.
Ok so thats my "bashing" that i'm going to do, now to say what i agree with what you said.
"Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary."
I agree with this statement A LOT, but the thing that gets me that i don't like is how ultras took i think 75seconds to make and cost 6 supply. But in sc1 is was 60 seconds and 4 supply. So they take long time to get them out, and Corrupts take 40 seconds to make then another 34 seconds if you plan to make them into tier 3 broodlords, another unit that zerg needs to have late game and doesn't produce that fast and are crucial units.
Don't mean to bash you but these are my thoughts and i don't 100% agree with the things you stated. Maybe you are right and zerg is completely balanced but i feel that there aren't the right maps for zerg and that the fear of them being able to mass expand is gone ( with there being 6workers on gas per base and more workers to saturate the minerals).
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in terms of unit producing, i guess zerg is ahead. argueably protoss is faster but not the higher tier units
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On July 22 2010 10:24 Vedreth wrote:
Zerg are NOT underpowered, just more difficult to play effecitvely.
There are 2 main issues:
1) Zerg has no lair tech 'counter' to the long range splash of siege / colossi. This makes the game for the zerg a defensive struggle of poking and harass until you can get the required units out.
2) Because of 1), to play on par with reasonably powerful protoss or terran builds, zerg needs to be more skilled in order to survive to the point of the required units. This means:
Lower league players can execute the t/p build to hurt the z, but z can't play effectively enough to win (most of the time). So there is a skill gap between being able to play t/p long range splash builds, and being able to defend it as z.
This adds up to the QQ of zerg
roach drop bombs to counter tanks. + mass units
corruptor for collossi. colossi raping any pure ground just means u dont go pure ground.
zerg does require more skill doesnt it? i feel like contaminate, creep expanding, multiple hotkey grouping for flanking, queen spells just means there is a much higher skill cap, and apm requirement, much like how it was for terran in BW.
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i really wonder if 12 seconds is realllly necessary. i'd like to see it go down to at least 10 seconds or so for more offensive viability.
6 might have been too offensively oriented but the spine really is the extra zerg units (T and P have more unit types in the game if u dont count spines or spores or queens.
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He didn't bring up any points that all top zerg players aren't already aware of and/or trying to abuse.
The only factor Raelcun brought up that I agree is underused is mobility (specifically nydus worms).
Tech switch
One of zerg's biggest advantages but at the same time one of their biggest banes. For an effective tech switch as zerg you need to actually be stockpiling minerals and gas, which leaves you more vulnerable and with less units for a certain timing window.
Example: If you go for a fast spire, you want to save up to 600/600 once the spire finishes. Dealing with and defending from hyperaggressive terrans with hellions/rauders/tanks without enough units becomes really hard and oftentimes you have to sack your timing to be able to survive.
Same thing with any zerg tech switch. Ultralisks? They're to no use unless you've stockpiled 2k minerals and 1500gas so you can build 5-6 of them and upgrade their armor.
Broodlords? In addition to the tech buildings you need to stockpile gas for at least 4-5 corruptors and their morphing to broodlords. What good will 1 or 2 broodlords do?
Tech switching, while it adds depth to the zerg, also adds more trouble in terms of decision making and taking chances than you would expect. Zerg macro isn't as straight forward as terran macro, where you merely need to spend your minerals/gas at a steady rate and produce from a variety of ezmode units that are all useful.
Unit Production
The things you wrote don't apply unless it's lategame, you're maxed, and you've got a huge surplus of minerals/gas. No top players produce larva at a slower rate than they mine minerals and harvest gas. Sure, there are occasional screw ups where top players could've had 8 extra roaches or hydras due to missing injections. But this pretty much applies to any race and falls under the category "better macro", rather than miraculous unit replenishing capabilities (since you're limited by the amount of minerals you have).
Conclusion
* Better macro means you can have slightly more units (yes this applies to terran and protoss too)
* Obscure healing spell called transfusion (the equivalence of telling terran to repair better to fight the imbalance)
* Contamination (i actually agree on this one)
* Nydus Networks (Agreed. Problem still persists that you can't ever engage a terran blob though. So wouldn't be of any defensive use unless terran splits their troops to defend and attack at the same time. If they go for a base trade you'd just be donating your units by trying to defend.)
Pretty much everything hinges on actually surviving til the mid and lategame relatively unscathed. I already win enough of the games where I do. The unit production part helps. But I suspect, at the same time, that the strength of the larva inject, is the very reason why Blizzard need to keep zerg units so weak in relative comparison to the other races. Everytime they make them "slightly" too strong, zerg just steamrolls the other races in the mid and late game (because they have an easier time surviving the early game without sustaining damage).
I'd reform the macro mechanics rather than have all zergs learn 1001 ways in which you can avoid a terran death blob. Macro mechanics make timing attacks so strong, that zerg has a hard time "tech switching" without dying. On the other hand, the zerg macro mechanics makes zerg macro so good, that if they survive the early game unscathed, it runs amok; totally out of control. What you're left with are Blizzard, scratching their heads, wondering why tweaking unit stats doesn't help.
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On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration.
I don't care who you are or how many pros you are in contact with... To come in here and make it sound like Zerg players just don't know how to use the race or just aren't trying is completely ridiculous. Basic statistical knowledge would tell you that skill levels are probably quite evenly spread across all three races, so when a bunch of Zerg players start complaining that x is OP, that is a BIG DEAL.
There are pro players complaining too, and we can certainly assume that they are trying as hard as they can to make the race work.
You can't just come and say:
"Oh, they just need to do this, this and this and they'll be fine!".
"Ah, so all I need to do is that, that and that? Lucky I have this spare 100 APM that I didn't know what to do with before..."
Get real man. There is a real problem here, and glazing over it with bullshit like "Zerg players haven't had the time to REALLY get their hands on Zerg" is just useless. We've been trying just as hard (I think harder) as Terran and Protoss players during the beta.
For the record, I don't think Zerg is underpowered per se. I just think they require a much higher degree of skill to get an even footing against Terran (PvZ is pretty good IMO). This is not how the game should be.
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On July 22 2010 10:19 waffling1 wrote:
i think the spine crawler + queen +creep expansion push has not been explored much.
spine are mobile, and are pretty much meant to be used offensively as well. on top of being able to heal them, and being mobile, i think the spine crawler is pretty much the extra zerg unit.
in a game, if players are diligent about creep expansion they can expand it up to the base, plant sunkens, and basically have healable, durable seige tanks (less range than tanks of course, but still).
In straight up unit to unit confrontations, i tseems zerg are usually at a disadvantage against any P ball with colossi or T ball with tanks or splash. of course zerg is pretty much required to flank, but throwing spines into the mix can add a bit of forcing the other race to back off before 12 seconds, as you push and gain ground.
Think about it, 150 minerals for a healable, durable spine crawler will just do a whole lot more than 6 lings. (ling of course will be all about mobility, which is its own niche).
it would seem that the spine crawler can pretty much be used as a medium seige tank.
also, baneling drops to the econ line. comon.
So basicly what you are saying is that we got a siege tank with less range (1 vs 13), less than half of the movement speed, no splash damage, three times as long siege/root time and it requires creep in order to even work not only this but it drasticly hinders your movement speed across the map.
Tell me again how this is viable since it requires your larva to be used for this cos I sure can't see it.
Oh and it has almost double the attack speed of the tank but I can't see that making up for anything.
Because of the above it's to abusable with drops / warpins from P and T just runns over it no problem.
So basicly this is like a double edged sword only the edge which faces your opponent is dull, coated with a thick wooly fabric.
can't say anything about baneling drops kinda hard to pull of unless you do it as a battle takes place elsewhere.
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EPT
