EPTI'm a Zerg player and I win many match ups fine, fair and dandy
In Korea Terran is considered the weakest and Zerg is considered the strongest
Why Zerg is Good - Page 7
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Gentlebite
United States132 Posts
I'm a Zerg player and I win many match ups fine, fair and dandy In Korea Terran is considered the weakest and Zerg is considered the strongest | ||
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Hann1bal
United States46 Posts
On July 22 2010 10:19 waffling1 wrote: i think the spine crawler + queen +creep expansion push has not been explored much. spine are mobile, and are pretty much meant to be used offensively as well. on top of being able to heal them, and being mobile, i think the spine crawler is pretty much the extra zerg unit. in a game, if players are diligent about creep expansion they can expand it up to the base, plant sunkens, and basically have healable, durable seige tanks (less range than tanks of course, but still). In straight up unit to unit confrontations, i tseems zerg are usually at a disadvantage against any P ball with colossi or T ball with tanks or splash. of course zerg is pretty much required to flank, but throwing spines into the mix can add a bit of forcing the other race to back off before 12 seconds, as you push and gain ground. Think about it, 150 minerals for a healable, durable spine crawler will just do a whole lot more than 6 lings. (ling of course will be all about mobility, which is its own niche). it would seem that the spine crawler can pretty much be used as a medium seige tank. also, baneling drops to the econ line. comon. Spinecrawler pushes have been used which is why they nerfed the rooting time from 6 to 12 seconds. It was utilized mostly on the Asian servers, but widely used nonetheless. After the nerf, it has become less popular because it is now much easier to bypass them in the open field. By the time you can utilize this, your opponent has plenty of things to push back with making the tactic not too effective. Baneling drops ARE used but most Zerg are reluctant to drop because it is the most expensive and slowest dropship in the game. Not to mention if I make a mistake I might supply block myself. We're better off with a Nydus most of the time because at least when they blow up in your face, you can recover. | ||
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JinjoBust
Korea (North)130 Posts
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
edit:also i would like to add that i think lower skill level players find a harder time playing zerg than terran and protoss would thats why there is so many complaints. | ||
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
On July 22 2010 10:24 Melt wrote: Also, the Maps are really small and there won't be bigger ones in the Ladder Map Pool. Probably, Zerg would easily be the strongest Race if the Maps where as big as in BW, but they said they wanted to keep it small and noobfriendly. did blizzard really say this or is this just an assumption? | ||
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Kokosaft
Germany172 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:47 FabledIntegral wrote: I just have a massive problem with the maxed army Zerg, I've had numerous games where I've sat at 200/200 vs a 2 base toss, with tons of minerals to spare, and lost the game. My most recent game I can recall was a game where I gained a massive early base advantage, had 5 base vs 2 base, 200/200 and 5k minerals and 2k gas in the bank. Stupidly, I didn't get an ultra cavern vs the Toss, but instead stuck with Ling/Roach/Hydra (and outupgrading him). As he moved out to secure his third, I burrowed my roaches and popped out on top of his army, and moved in wiht hydra support, but he demolished them. I had around ~35-40 larvae saved up, and instantly started reinforcing. However, his ball was able to come in and power through all my separated weak reinforcements, and he reinforced his ball with warp gate units before mine even hatched. I got annihilated. Imo, that's just broken. Even if I could have won with Ultralisks (I'm near positive if i just built an ultra cavern and like 10 ultras I could have cleaved with 5 armor through his mass stalker/sentry/colossus ball). But I shouldn't be forced to use them to have even a remote chance at fighting his army of tier 1. It's moments like that where I just think Zerg is broken lategame, and it's just as bad if not worse vs Terran. That's what I am feeling too. For Example: Idra vs Huk deciding game on LT Idra was sooo far ahead in money and a little ahead in food, fine with tech and had good positioning (or at least decent in some rare situations). Idra nearly lost although Huk FORGOT RANGE UPGRADE FOR COLOSSI!!! That's just broken. Huk nearly won the fight without the most important upgrade for this playstyle AND Idra was hunting his 6 colossi with 10+ corruptors. When I saw this I just thought about how ridicilous retarded SC2 sometimes can be... Don't get me wrong, I love the game and I think it's well balanced most of the time, but those situations shouldn't even possibly happen ... PS: sorry for the typos using different keyboard (@ work) | ||
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
On July 22 2010 10:46 Hann1bal wrote: Spinecrawler pushes have been used which is why they nerfed the rooting time from 6 to 12 seconds. It was utilized mostly on the Asian servers, but widely used nonetheless. After the nerf, it has become less popular because it is now much easier to bypass them in the open field. By the time you can utilize this, your opponent has plenty of things to push back with making the tactic not too effective. Baneling drops ARE used but most Zerg are reluctant to drop because it is the most expensive and slowest dropship in the game. Not to mention if I make a mistake I might supply block myself. We're better off with a Nydus most of the time because at least when they blow up in your face, you can recover. I think spine crawler pushes are really a "might as well" thing. Building Spines just to fight with your army might not be the best thing ever but it's not like it's rare to build them for defense. Once you start spreading the creep towards their base, there's no reason not to bring your Spines with you. They're sunkens that walk around, just use them.  | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On July 22 2010 10:40 Thenas wrote: So basicly what you are saying is that we got a siege tank with less range (1 vs 13), less than half of the movement speed, no splash damage, three times as long siege/root time and it requires creep in order to even work not only this but it drasticly hinders your movement speed across the map. Tell me again how this is viable since it requires your larva to be used for this cos I sure can't see it. Oh and it has almost double the attack speed of the tank but I can't see that making up for anything. Because of the above it's to abusable with drops / warpins from P and T just runns over it no problem. So basicly this is like a double edged sword only the edge which faces your opponent is dull, coated with a thick wooly fabric. can't say anything about baneling drops kinda hard to pull of unless you do it as a battle takes place elsewhere. i didn't mean that the spine is actually a seige tank. they are definitely not comparable by any means, but a lot of its mechanics and behavior ends up being so. all i'm saying is that blizzard gave mobility to the zerg defensive structures. it's not being used offensively when it totally can be. plus, a sunken is way more potent than 6 lings later on in the game in various respects. the spine can also bolster the fragility of the zerg ball compared to other balls. a sort of creeping forward and containing with spines can even be experimented with similar to lurkers (of course there is a huge difference with a 12 second burrow time). say u make a lot of spines for defense. the unique thing about zerg is that they can uproot them, and use them as offense, provided you're diligent about creep. T and P cannot do this. The simple fact that it can be done means it should at least be explored. There was a game KotB where Idra in game 2 against HuK moved 4 spines spread out to the center of the map on stepps, was able to hold the center much better. he didn't move his spines in range of poking at the wallin, but hey, it's more than leaving the spines back at the base. i think a lot of underutilizing offensive spines has to do with the spillover from BW mentality. despite not being as long ranged as a tank or colossus, the spine is still the longest ranged ground unit in the zerg arsenal. if u can manage to entrench yourself in a contain, why not poke away at the toss wallin before the period colossi come out? force the issue on the Toss with queens transfusing them as well. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On July 22 2010 10:55 Kokosaft wrote: That's what I am feeling too. For Example: Idra vs Huk deciding game on LT Idra was sooo far ahead in money and a little ahead in food, fine with tech and had good positioning (or at least decent in some rare situations). Idra nearly lost although Huk FORGOT RANGE UPGRADE FOR COLOSSI!!! That's just broken. Huk nearly won the fight without the most important upgrade for this playstyle AND Idra was hunting his 6 colossi with 10+ corruptors. When I saw this I just thought about how ridicilous retarded SC2 sometimes can be... Don't get me wrong, I love the game and I think it's well balanced most of the time, but those situations shouldn't even possibly happen ... PS: sorry for the typos using different keyboard (@ work) yeah, that game is not good to reference for any sort of balance discussion indeed ^^ | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
Seriously though, there may be balance issues with Zerg, there may not be. We need to wait until these things are more evident and developed and not blow your credibility before the game is even out. Blizzard doesn't make balance changes based on the TL boards so I don't see the point in all the zerg underpowered threads. Nobody on this game has explored any of the race's possibilities to the fullest. Nowhere even close. The strength of Asian zerg players leads me to believe there's more to zerg than you'd think from reading these forums. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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waffling1
599 Posts
On July 22 2010 10:46 Hann1bal wrote: Spinecrawler pushes have been used which is why they nerfed the rooting time from 6 to 12 seconds. It was utilized mostly on the Asian servers, but widely used nonetheless. After the nerf, it has become less popular because it is now much easier to bypass them in the open field. By the time you can utilize this, your opponent has plenty of things to push back with making the tactic not too effective. Baneling drops ARE used but most Zerg are reluctant to drop because it is the most expensive and slowest dropship in the game. Not to mention if I make a mistake I might supply block myself. We're better off with a Nydus most of the time because at least when they blow up in your face, you can recover. yeah, i think it just means it's not as fluid, and there is more chance to interrupt it. i think it just means the zerg needs a fuller contain before attempting it, as well as a slower, inching-forward style of leapfrog if it is to be done. if ur gonna push, and u have creep spread out, might as well use those spines offensively as if they were units. offensive spines don't necessariliy entail that you have to do it as a rush, or that spines have to be your main composition. it's just some extra tanky unit with great bang for the buck. the benefit of all static structures in any RTS game is that they are tanky and are cost efficient. the drawback is that they cannot be used offensively and is a waste of money in terms of mustering an offensive force. | ||
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:47 FabledIntegral wrote: I watched it, but I don't remember, I'll have to take a look, but I wouldn't personally say lair tech is early game, nor are hydras. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding is. Personally I feel there is vast amounts of potential in having mass dropships that enable you to drop an entire army in a Zerg main, snipe a hive and some critical tech buildings, and fight the units that are reinforcing into you. Recall that when you do so, you'll have a major positioning advantage when Zerg rushes back to the base, as buildings will be in the way and lings will arrive much faster (and in a line) to your troops, making him have to wait all the way for the other Roaches/Hydras. Merely the threat of a doom drop from Terran is in itself giving the Terran tons of potential (similar to how merely the potential of DT in SC1 forced Terrans to get early turrets). Then you have all your dropships to heal your stimmed units that are taking down the buildings, etc. Concerning Nyduses, the units come out really slowly, and I doubt with the speed of Terran units that your entire Nydus at multiple bases would be viable, but who knows. We can see with nydus canals in SC1 that usually you don't even have enough army out in time, and the units through the canals come out a million times faster, and you could utilize Dark Swarm and lurkers in small numbers to delay for much more time (fungal... not so much I feel, but I have definitely used it to delay army movement before like you suggest and buy time). I just have a massive problem with the maxed army Zerg, I've had numerous games where I've sat at 200/200 vs a 2 base toss, with tons of minerals to spare, and lost the game. My most recent game I can recall was a game where I gained a massive early base advantage, had 5 base vs 2 base, 200/200 and 5k minerals and 2k gas in the bank. Stupidly, I didn't get an ultra cavern vs the Toss, but instead stuck with Ling/Roach/Hydra (and outupgrading him). As he moved out to secure his third, I burrowed my roaches and popped out on top of his army, and moved in wiht hydra support, but he demolished them. I had around ~35-40 larvae saved up, and instantly started reinforcing. However, his ball was able to come in and power through all my separated weak reinforcements, and he reinforced his ball with warp gate units before mine even hatched. I got annihilated. Imo, that's just broken. Even if I could have won with Ultralisks (I'm near positive if i just built an ultra cavern and like 10 ultras I could have cleaved with 5 armor through his mass stalker/sentry/colossus ball). But I shouldn't be forced to use them to have even a remote chance at fighting his army of tier 1. It's moments like that where I just think Zerg is broken lategame, and it's just as bad if not worse vs Terran. There's no way in hell a maxed, upgraded 200/200 zerg army of hydra/roach is getting killed by a Protoss tier 1 army. But ignoring that (since you said he had Colossus, meaning its not really a tier 1 army), I can't see how you can call that unfair. Colossus destroy ground if you have like 4. Get a Spire bro. And if you maxed and banked 5k/2k, he was likely maxed as well. You had the advantage in being able to reinforce because of your bank but it sounds like you just rallied into him and let him kill you piecemeal. Should probably be regrouping. Just talking based off the description. I'm actually really interested and would love to see a replay if you still have it kicking around somewhere. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On July 22 2010 10:44 Heaven. wrote: North America is a bunch of complainer who rant over how underpowered Zerg is and Terran mech is imba I'm a Zerg player and I win many match ups fine, fair and dandy In Korea Terran is considered the weakest and Zerg is considered the strongest This isn't true, terran is #1 , zerg a close second and protoss a distant third on asia. unlike US were terran and protoss are close and zerg is a distant third. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On July 22 2010 08:47 FabledIntegral wrote: I watched it, but I don't remember, I'll have to take a look, but I wouldn't personally say lair tech is early game, nor are hydras. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding is. Personally I feel there is vast amounts of potential in having mass dropships that enable you to drop an entire army in a Zerg main, snipe a hive and some critical tech buildings, and fight the units that are reinforcing into you. Recall that when you do so, you'll have a major positioning advantage when Zerg rushes back to the base, as buildings will be in the way and lings will arrive much faster (and in a line) to your troops, making him have to wait all the way for the other Roaches/Hydras. Merely the threat of a doom drop from Terran is in itself giving the Terran tons of potential (similar to how merely the potential of DT in SC1 forced Terrans to get early turrets). Then you have all your dropships to heal your stimmed units that are taking down the buildings, etc. Concerning Nyduses, the units come out really slowly, and I doubt with the speed of Terran units that your entire Nydus at multiple bases would be viable, but who knows. We can see with nydus canals in SC1 that usually you don't even have enough army out in time, and the units through the canals come out a million times faster, and you could utilize Dark Swarm and lurkers in small numbers to delay for much more time (fungal... not so much I feel, but I have definitely used it to delay army movement before like you suggest and buy time). I just have a massive problem with the maxed army Zerg, I've had numerous games where I've sat at 200/200 vs a 2 base toss, with tons of minerals to spare, and lost the game. My most recent game I can recall was a game where I gained a massive early base advantage, had 5 base vs 2 base, 200/200 and 5k minerals and 2k gas in the bank. Stupidly, I didn't get an ultra cavern vs the Toss, but instead stuck with Ling/Roach/Hydra (and outupgrading him). As he moved out to secure his third, I burrowed my roaches and popped out on top of his army, and moved in wiht hydra support, but he demolished them. I had around ~35-40 larvae saved up, and instantly started reinforcing. However, his ball was able to come in and power through all my separated weak reinforcements, and he reinforced his ball with warp gate units before mine even hatched. I got annihilated. Imo, that's just broken. Even if I could have won with Ultralisks (I'm near positive if i just built an ultra cavern and like 10 ultras I could have cleaved with 5 armor through his mass stalker/sentry/colossus ball). But I shouldn't be forced to use them to have even a remote chance at fighting his army of tier 1. It's moments like that where I just think Zerg is broken lategame, and it's just as bad if not worse vs Terran. Lol you mentioned having to fight stalker/sentry/collosus, they're tier 1.5 and 3 respectively... you onli fought with ling roach and hydras which are tier 1 tier 1.5 and tier 2... of course you need to have something match his collusus. Your army was outclassed and i can say with my modest knowledge; hard countered. collosus > hydras w(with +2 collosus destroy lings) collosus + stalkers > hydras/roach collosus + stalkers > hydras/roach/lings (forcefield funnels your short range and melee units) And yes, ultra's would've won you the battle. They would break through force field and allow you a better surround with lings and roaches. It's your fault you did not build that cavern | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On July 22 2010 11:08 PrinceXizor wrote: This isn't true, terran is #1 , zerg a close second and protoss a distant third on asia. unlike US were terran and protoss are close and zerg is a distant third. Source please? I actually remmebr day9 talking about this in one of his cast where he said that zerg is much stronger in asia. But wether that's because Zerg is actually stronger in Asia or Terran and Protoss are weaker than US remains to be seen. BUT he DID state that zerg is stronger in asia compared to the T/P there. | ||
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 22 2010 11:19 me_viet wrote: Source please? I actually remmebr day9 talking about this in one of his cast where he said that zerg is much stronger in asia. But wether that's because Zerg is actually stronger in Asia or Terran and Protoss are weaker than US remains to be seen. BUT he DID state that zerg is stronger in asia compared to the T/P there. http://sc2.vacau.com/sc2/krranks.php Look at it all you want, while you are at it. go through the global rankings. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On July 22 2010 11:19 me_viet wrote: Source please? I actually remmebr day9 talking about this in one of his cast where he said that zerg is much stronger in asia. But wether that's because Zerg is actually stronger in Asia or Terran and Protoss are weaker than US remains to be seen. BUT he DID state that zerg is stronger in asia compared to the T/P there. I'm pretty sure it was in one of the earlier Day9 beta dailes (proably around patch 3/4), because I also remember listening to one of the State of the Beta podcasts where Artosis was venting about Terran mech vs Z, saying that most Zs on Asia were changing to T. Of course, that was right at the end of phase one, so it's still outdated news. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On July 22 2010 10:49 shrinkmaster wrote: did blizzard really say this or is this just an assumption? They really said that. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136770¤tpage=5#96 The last time we got any statistics to back up the claim that Asian Zergs were "dominating" was well over a month ago. Plus, I'm willing to bet that none of you who make these claims play on the Asia server. Also, compare the top Korean Zergs to the top Korean Terrans and Protosses. For Zergs, we have what, Cool and Check? Maybe Zenio? Terran: IntoTheRainbow, TheStc (who just beat Cool in the most recent Korean online tournament), Ensane, Maka, Hannibal. And for Protoss you have Tester, enough said. So how are Asian Zergs "dominating?" | ||
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