EPTWhy Zerg is Good - Page 9
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On July 22 2010 13:23 Whomp wrote: I get you, i really do because you honestly have to outplay them by using zerg's potential. Mech has limited play as its slow and clunky, it's depressing facing it but I KNOW that we have options to explore they are just harder to implement! Zerg is not underpowered it's just harder to play and to lesser skilled players it would seem otherwise because they will never reach that potential. Those who argue otherwise see what I see, what can be done if you eek out just a bit more here and there and voila you can beat mech and it goes downhill. It's a plateau effect once you've beaten mech soundly you can emulate that same procedure in every game because Terrans feel comfortable playing the same playstyle. Blizzard has to collect insurmountable amount of data to make a game feel balance on all levels, every month this game will be out meta games will change peoples thought patterns and skills will develop. The entire multiplayer will be a sentient being due to that and you need to understand that what seems obvious from your perspective is COMPLETELY different from another. For example, I change my game up and manage to beat 10 meching terrans in a row because I can extort a weakness. However a fellow Zerg has just lost 10 games against the same meching terrans because he continues to follow the standard meta game for zerg. You will have 3 separate opinions that swear they are correct 1. Zerg can beat mech all the time 2. Mech is OP Zerg has no hope 3. Mech is fine I win about 50% of the time You swiftly go to the nearest forum and complain with a reasonable explanation as to why its unbalanced/balanced with replays to prove it! YOU FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THIS BECAUSE OF YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE Hope this helps That's true, what that is called is perceptions of reality. In all facets of life we have Perceptions and SC2 is no exception. While I agree with you completely on that end of it I also disagree by bringing up your previous points. You mentioned that the meta will act as a sentient being with an ebb and flow and if you put that information into a statistical analysis you will see a lot more zerg players (even high end) believe that ZvT needs to be tweeked. To the guy that had his 200f army wiped by the 150f toss opp. the only thing I can really say is that you have room to grow, It has already been discussed that you should have teched to hive, you prolly could have scouted him better and a surround with zerglings (yes, they wreck colossi if you do a pincer attack) would have done wonders for your initial fight. ZvP is growing and changing, It will continue to evolve into something dynamic and fun; ZvT on the other hand needs some help, it may seem stagnant or boring because even doing the best tactics in the game you won't find an equal fight against an equal opponent. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 22 2010 13:30 StarBrift wrote: I think the reason zerg is considered kinda weak right now are the bloody maps. Some are just SO SMALL. I mean there is hardly any map in the pool that is actually as big as a normal sc1 map. Flanking is too hard on most maps and stalling the map in time to get expansions up etc almost never work. Terran and Protoss timing pushes become overpowered on some maps because of this. I hope they get rid of like 90% of the maps right away. Been saying this since the first 2 weeks I got the beta (mid March). I think maps need to be bigger and more open, but Blizzard has clearly said they are not going to do that. And DO doesn't count, because the enemy literally can attack in a line to your base without you being able to flank and kill all your expansions. | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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cucumber
United States116 Posts
I'm not going to respond to people who can't read or understand what I've written. I might be wrong or misinformed, and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I am, but please try to read what I've written before you male yourself look stupid. I'm not going to respond to stupid. (I'm sorry if you're a teenage progamer who thinks he's really smart. Seriously, try learning how to read and understand. It'll help you when you have to join the real world. What I'm saying is obnoxious and I'm sorry about that but it's also true.) | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
On July 22 2010 13:44 cucumber wrote: I never said you can learn a new race in a day. I explicitly said I was talking about long-term whining. If you want to disagree with me, then fine, but try some reading comprehension classes before you attack me for things I'm not talking about. I'm not going to respond to people who can't read or understand what I've written. I might be wrong or misinformed, and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I am, but please try to read what I've written before you male yourself look stupid. I'm not going to respond to stupid. (I'm sorry if you're a teenage progamer who thinks he's really smart. Seriously, try learning how to read and understand. It'll help you when you have to join the real world. What I'm saying is obnoxious and I'm sorry about that but it's also true.) First off why are you personally bashing individuals so much, your posts are more geared towards verbal abuse then getting your point across. If people can't comprehend what your saying this is probably the fault of the conveyor, perhaps you should practice writing things out so they are more sensible. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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MiyaviTeddy
Canada697 Posts
The points are fair and all, but: -ZvZ is just... :\ all in zerglings or bane+lings -Though this will change eventually, ultimately the zerg army composition usually only consist of hydras for dps and roach for tank (and a bit of dps). That's it. Maybe some lings and mutas but that's the zerg fighting army in a nutshell. Hydroaches. Lings die very fast to AoE or upgraded units such as zealots and whatnot in like what, 2 shots? totally die against AoE stuff like siege tank splash damage (given with their center of AoE shit + "I REFUSE TO ACT STUPID AND SHOOT THE FIRST THING I SEE WITH OTHER TANKS UHUHUH" Mutas are good against toss I guess but the rest is like... well. Colossi melts shit, Immortals can tank a bit and obliterating roaches, stalkers help alot of with the roaches, zealots just tanks and slices things so nicely. Don't even mention Terran Mech. At least this is what I think. -Difficult to get into a turtler? though, I like playing zerg and I do see that zerg does require a different mindset and goals to win now then it is to play zerg in bw. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
I don't think it needs to be rebalanced but I think it will be a while until Zerg is competitive against terran without resorting to all-ins. Then again it was this way in BW too, management Zerg took like 8 years to develop. | ||
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Flings
Algeria4 Posts
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Gnarg
Netherlands165 Posts
Also combatting a mech T requires excellent creep spreading and map control. I don't know how balanced Z is at higher levels, they seem to do well in tournaments. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
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Arcticc
United States203 Posts
On July 22 2010 09:32 XBLancer wrote: I agree with almost all of your points, and I definitely agree with your overall point that people need so stop saying that Zerg are underpowered. I honestly don't understand why people keep saying this... I think it's a genuine belief of a lot Zerg players. You don't see a ton of threads discussing how terran or protoss are underpowered (anymore). Love how it's just instantly labeled as "whining" from people who don't even play the race. Anyways... I'm going to attempt to paint some broad strokes into this discussion. I personally find the problem to be, what most people are suggesting is the solution. Zerg players MUST perform stupid little unexpected tricks and strategies to pull off the W. Soon these tricks and strategies will be expected and useless. If we take a step back from the pro discussion and just look at the game in terms of the average playing populace, a Zerg player almost always HAS to be better than it's competition to win. That defeats the idea of evenly matched races. Therefor the race is underpowered when compared to Toss and Terran. Nydus Networks - I like these, but they are becoming more and more expected and are so easy to counter. People have already gotten into the habit of building pylons/supply depots around the fog areas of their base. I will have to see nydus used well in a defensive position to believe that it's useful in that sense. "Tech Switches" - Toss and Terran have so many diverse choices in units that these tech switches almost never play as a significant role as you're suggesting. I would rather suggest that the lack of diversity in units makes Zerg incredibly underpowered. That's what makes mech so strong. Susceptibility to cheese - Although I would argue that all races have some susceptibility to cheese, Zerg MUST always be on their toes for it. I've played terrans who just refuse to scv scout because they can just wall in and scan later. Zerg, besides not having the ability to wall, have a ridiculous lack of anti-air and cloak detection pre-lair. Sure, people argue queens are an answer for air, but it's always a struggle. Especially for the common, non-pro, player. Just use Roach burrow lolz - Yeh, it's useful. It's not going to be the game winning research. Especially against terran who can just scan. Once your opponent sees it, it's basically useless (except for the healing). Scouting - just so much harder for zerg. Give us a cloaked overseer ability. Changelings get dropped so quickly now. Terrans have, once again, easy mode with scan. Spawning larva and spreading creep are pretty self-explanatory. They're basically necessary. You have a lot of expansions and you need to protect them. Zerg units off creep are handicap. They can barely move. | ||
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Freeheals
United States488 Posts
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Arcticc
United States203 Posts
On July 22 2010 14:46 Freeheals wrote: Could nydus worms be set up between the zerg's bases, especially expos that are a good distance from the Zerg's main base? I think that could make some interesting play especially late game when some hard-to-reach expos are being picked off one by one by a terran's vikings or some other easily maneuverable harass units. I'm fairly confident some zergs have already tried this but I've never seen anyone try it. Maybe defensive nydus worm use isn't the most viable thing in the world. It's just really slow, I would have to see it to believe it. Once one guy pops out the opponent could just book it. | ||
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ohN
United States1075 Posts
On July 22 2010 14:46 Freeheals wrote: Could nydus worms be set up between the zerg's bases, especially expos that are a good distance from the Zerg's main base? I think that could make some interesting play especially late game when some hard-to-reach expos are being picked off one by one by a terran's vikings or some other easily maneuverable harass units. I'm fairly confident some zergs have already tried this but I've never seen anyone try it. Maybe defensive nydus worm use isn't the most viable thing in the world. Defensive nydus is really good it's just that it costs so damn much. In BW, a nydus cost 150/0, in sc2 they cost 100/200 for the network and then 100/100 for the worms. Late-game its nice but right now, it just seems too situational for such a high gas-cost. | ||
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