I agree that Zerg isn't nearly as bad as people claim.
However, I really do feel Zerg is lacking something. Wether its a spell, unit, spellcaster ect. is beyond me. But they do not feel as finished as protoss or terran.
I do feel like removing the Lurker, Delfir, Muta Stacking, ect. and not replacing them for something interesting?
I mean, people say BANELINGS?!? Yes they are probably the only thing the Zerg got to spice up play, but lets be honest. They are not nearly as Micro intensive as Lurkers or Muta Stacking. You move the banelings into an army on ground or by overlords. Thats pretty much it.
On July 22 2010 14:46 Freeheals wrote: Could nydus worms be set up between the zerg's bases, especially expos that are a good distance from the Zerg's main base? I think that could make some interesting play especially late game when some hard-to-reach expos are being picked off one by one by a terran's vikings or some other easily maneuverable harass units. I'm fairly confident some zergs have already tried this but I've never seen anyone try it. Maybe defensive nydus worm use isn't the most viable thing in the world.
Defensive nydus is really good it's just that it costs so damn much. In BW, a nydus cost 150/0, in sc2 they cost 100/200 for the network and then 100/100 for the worms. Late-game its nice but right now, it just seems too situational for such a high gas-cost.
Nydus worms are really difficult to incorporate mid-game because every mineral, and more importantly, every vespene gas counts. Gas-wise, a functional Nydus network is the equivalent of 12 roaches (which is a really bad way to put things into perspective but still). The point is that they are huge investments in the early and mid game. However, they definitely should be used liberally in late game situations.
Could understand a lot better this whole argumentation that "zerg is weak" or so on if there was no zerg at any tournament or ever invited to tournaments. But seeing as among the pro's there is zerg players that are in tournaments and performing good. Cannot see how this should translate into zerg is weak. Just look at the King of the Beta Tournament by Day9
Idra-Z, Tester-P, IntoTheRainbow-T, Dimaga-Z, White-rA-P, TheLittleOne-R, Huk-P, and Qxc-T. (We are not seeing only terrans and Protoss players here)
At the moment they seem good to me at least, Zerg player myself. And personally I see/saw lot's of zerg players in second phase of beta as well. So saynig zerg is underpowered or weaker then the others seems just like a rant/cry for buff or justification for loss/bad play or whatever reason you may have for it. But even not at Pro levels there is Zerg players
Even if the numbers still point to that there is fewer Zerg players then other races, there is still som evidence that you apperently can win even if you play zerg
If this argumentation was true we wouldn't see any zerg at all if this was true. Why would anyone ever play the race that is absolute weaker then protoss/terran ? Does not make sense to me personally, and seemingly to some people in this thread as well.
Just cause we cannot mass roch/hydra every game vs any race on any map, does not make us weaker. And really, if you find that you lose with zerg or dislike them or want them buffed cause of X or Y reason and you don't want to work on your mistakes switch race if that makes you happier.
And most "issues" with Zerg that people mention just seems as something that comes with the race. If you don't like ex that some units are slow outside of creep or dislike spreading creep keeping larva up and mass expand and doing Zerg stuff in general mabey zerg aint for you But saying that Zerg is worse/weaker seems just truly not true at this point.
Could understand a lot better this whole argumentation that "zerg is weak" or so on if there was no zerg at any tournament or ever invited to tournaments. But seeing as among the pro's there is zerg players that are in tournaments and performing good. Cannot see how this should translate into zerg is weak. Just look at the King of the Beta Tournament by Day9
Idra-Z, Tester-P, IntoTheRainbow-T, Dimaga-Z, White-rA-P, TheLittleOne-R, Huk-P, and Qxc-T. (We are not seeing only terrans and Protoss players here)
At the moment they seem good to me at least, Zerg player myself. And personally I see/saw lot's of zerg players in second phase of beta as well. So saynig zerg is underpowered or weaker then the others seems just like a rant/cry for buff or justification for loss/bad play or whatever reason you may have for it. But even not at Pro levels there is Zerg players
Even if the numbers still point to that there is fewer Zerg players then other races, there is still som evidence that you apperently can win even if you play zerg
If this argumentation was true we wouldn't see any zerg at all if this was true. Why would anyone ever play the race that is absolute weaker then protoss/terran ? Does not make sense to me personally, and seemingly to some people in this thread as well.
Just cause we cannot mass roch/hydra every game vs any race on any map, does not make us weaker. And really, if you find that you lose with zerg or dislike them or want them buffed cause of X or Y reason and you don't want to work on your mistakes switch race if that makes you happier.
And most "issues" with Zerg that people mention just seems as something that comes with the race. If you don't like ex that some units are slow outside of creep or dislike spreading creep keeping larva up and mass expand and doing Zerg stuff in general mabey zerg aint for you But saying that Zerg is worse/weaker seems just truly not true at this point.
Sry for my bad english!
I don't see how pointing out that there are Zerg pro players translates to a statement on their strength as a race. I'm pretty sure no one is arguing that Zerg is "absolutely weaker" than toss or terran. It's just a common assertion that Zerg is not on the same even footing as the other two races in the grander image.
As for statistics, even though they suggest less people play Zerg, I just don't think statistics represent a fair statement on the state of any race. Each player is personally at a different skill level and have gone their own route in choosing what race they play.
Nydus was used quite alot in early beta. After the nerf in time for the worm to spawn though it sorta died down, it is still insanely effective though.
Nydus network/worms need a cost reduction. Or one network could let you build multiple exits at the same time, or just make the cooldown shorter by whatever is reasonable.
Right now, network + exits, especially if you intend to build multiple ones, is just way too costly to be used unless you are comfortably ahead / very safe.
I mean sure, it CAN be useful, but right now given the cost/time investment, and the risk factor, it's 95% of the time nothing more than a "cute" play.
Keep in mind units come out one at a time, which is another crippling factor: Using it defensively is really not an option unless you see your opponent coming a mile away so your units have time to pop out before the engagement. Using it offensively will fail horrendously if your opponent manages to get his blob of units close enough to the just-finishing worm and kills units one by one as they come out.
Half of the people complaining about the Zerg complaining have no clue about playing Zerg anyway, it's painfully obvious.
"OMG USE NYDUS LOL" yeah ok we'll get right back to you on that bro. You may or may not have noticed that any competitive player worth his salt now covers the outskirts of his base with pylons/depots/what have you. Yeah, GL with that nydus.
I think the big downer or nydus is that you cant retract the worm and get back the money. Seems really unfair when you think that Terran can disband the freaking bunkers for no loss at all.
On July 22 2010 14:04 Barrin wrote: wow cucumber. do you have any idea what a competitive game is supposed to be? If zerg is not balanced, there is a problem, regardless of what you seem to think the casuals want to do.
Yes, I do. If zerg is not balanced I completely agree it should be fixed. All I am saying is that progamers shouldn't pick an underpowered race and then want props for choosing it. If zerg is underpowered or needs more diversity, I hope Blizzard fixes it (I don't pretend to know). The only thing I am saying is that competitive gamers don't get to whine that that they picked zerg and lost because zerg was underpowered. The game is in beta and anyone can switch races. Zerg may be underpowered or lack diversity; I don't really have an opinion.
I'm bowing out of this thread before I get a warning/banning. I'm really not saying anything I think should be controversial or hard to understand. If you're a gamer for fun then by all means if you think zerg is underpowered/lacks diversity please tell Blizzard. If you're a pro, then choose zerg if you don't think that. If you do think that and you're a pro, then don't whine. You chose it.
I really don't think my opinion should be controversial. If you're a pro then only choose zerg if you think you can win. If no pros choose zerg, Blizzard will notice. If you play for fun and want to play zerg, by all means complain if zerg is underpowered.
If you're a pro don't play zerg unless you aren't going to whine that it's underpowered. ie, if you are paid to win then choose the race that can effect that.
Anyway, I am bowing out of this thread. I don't want to offend anyone else or get into fights. It's just a game and I hope you all enjoy playing once it comes out! (just a week from now!!)
On July 22 2010 15:08 Buffy wrote: Could understand a lot better this whole argumentation that "zerg is weak" or so on if there was no zerg at any tournament or ever invited to tournaments. But seeing as among the pro's there is zerg players that are in tournaments and performing good. Cannot see how this should translate into zerg is weak. Just look at the King of the Beta Tournament by Day9
Idra-Z, Tester-P, IntoTheRainbow-T, Dimaga-Z, White-rA-P, TheLittleOne-R, Huk-P, and Qxc-T. (We are not seeing only terrans and Protoss players here)
At the moment they seem good to me at least, Zerg player myself. And personally I see/saw lot's of zerg players in second phase of beta as well. So saynig zerg is underpowered or weaker then the others seems just like a rant/cry for buff or justification for loss/bad play or whatever reason you may have for it. But even not at Pro levels there is Zerg players
You understand that Day[9]'s tournament is an invitational, right? Meaning he likely hand-picked the players you see before you, and meaning he probably considered balancing out the race distribution as much as possible.
On July 22 2010 15:08 Buffy wrote: Could understand a lot better this whole argumentation that "zerg is weak" or so on if there was no zerg at any tournament or ever invited to tournaments. But seeing as among the pro's there is zerg players that are in tournaments and performing good. Cannot see how this should translate into zerg is weak. Just look at the King of the Beta Tournament by Day9
Idra-Z, Tester-P, IntoTheRainbow-T, Dimaga-Z, White-rA-P, TheLittleOne-R, Huk-P, and Qxc-T. (We are not seeing only terrans and Protoss players here)
At the moment they seem good to me at least, Zerg player myself. And personally I see/saw lot's of zerg players in second phase of beta as well. So saynig zerg is underpowered or weaker then the others seems just like a rant/cry for buff or justification for loss/bad play or whatever reason you may have for it. But even not at Pro levels there is Zerg players
You understand that Day[9]'s tournament is an invitational, right? Meaning he likely hand-picked the players you see before you, and meaning he probably considered balancing out the race distribution as much as possible.
Yes absolutely I know it was invite only, but not sure how he picked, but I was under the assumption he was picking by skill and by how good you have performed. So I thought he picked by that and not by race. And if I was right about him picking the players by skills / performance I suspected if Zerg was "underpowered" or what to really say, there would've been 1 or 0 zerg players.
On July 22 2010 15:08 Buffy wrote: Could understand a lot better this whole argumentation that "zerg is weak" or so on if there was no zerg at any tournament or ever invited to tournaments. But seeing as among the pro's there is zerg players that are in tournaments and performing good. Cannot see how this should translate into zerg is weak. Just look at the King of the Beta Tournament by Day9
Idra-Z, Tester-P, IntoTheRainbow-T, Dimaga-Z, White-rA-P, TheLittleOne-R, Huk-P, and Qxc-T. (We are not seeing only terrans and Protoss players here)
At the moment they seem good to me at least, Zerg player myself. And personally I see/saw lot's of zerg players in second phase of beta as well. So saynig zerg is underpowered or weaker then the others seems just like a rant/cry for buff or justification for loss/bad play or whatever reason you may have for it. But even not at Pro levels there is Zerg players
You understand that Day[9]'s tournament is an invitational, right? Meaning he likely hand-picked the players you see before you, and meaning he probably considered balancing out the race distribution as much as possible.
Yes absolutely I know it was invite only, but not sure how he picked, but I was under the assumption he was picking by skill and by how good you have performed. So I thought he picked by that and not by race. And if I was right about him picking the players by skills / performance I suspected if Zerg was "underpowered" or what to really say, there would've been 1 or 0 zerg players.
Once again sry for bad english
Of course skill is gonna be the main factor but it's not like these people are hands down the best 8 people in the world. Day invited people who are top players and I'm sure considered the races when doing so. Say the 8 best players players in the world were all terran, it would still be silly to choose 8 terrans.
On July 22 2010 15:08 Buffy wrote: Could understand a lot better this whole argumentation that "zerg is weak" or so on if there was no zerg at any tournament or ever invited to tournaments. But seeing as among the pro's there is zerg players that are in tournaments and performing good. Cannot see how this should translate into zerg is weak. Just look at the King of the Beta Tournament by Day9
Idra-Z, Tester-P, IntoTheRainbow-T, Dimaga-Z, White-rA-P, TheLittleOne-R, Huk-P, and Qxc-T. (We are not seeing only terrans and Protoss players here)
At the moment they seem good to me at least, Zerg player myself. And personally I see/saw lot's of zerg players in second phase of beta as well. So saynig zerg is underpowered or weaker then the others seems just like a rant/cry for buff or justification for loss/bad play or whatever reason you may have for it. But even not at Pro levels there is Zerg players
You understand that Day[9]'s tournament is an invitational, right? Meaning he likely hand-picked the players you see before you, and meaning he probably considered balancing out the race distribution as much as possible.
Yes absolutely I know it was invite only, but not sure how he picked, but I was under the assumption he was picking by skill and by how good you have performed. So I thought he picked by that and not by race. And if I was right about him picking the players by skills / performance I suspected if Zerg was "underpowered" or what to really say, there would've been 1 or 0 zerg players.
Once again sry for bad english
Of course skill is gonna be the main factor but it's not like these people are hands down the best 8 people in the world. Day invited people who are top players and I'm sure considered the races when doing so. Say the 8 best players players in the world were all terran, it would still be silly to choose 8 terrans.
Yeah, didn't think of the entertainment factor of the whole thing, silly of me : /
Just because the OP can point out the inherent advantages of the zerg race (advantages that have been there throughout the entirety of SC2), does not mean that those aspects of the race trump the counter-advantages (or rather, unique aspects and elements) of the other races. Yes, there are things about the Zerg that the other races do not have that give them an upper hand in some situations. Every race has these, but Zerg players are not complaining about the race being absolutely underpowered. Everyone who actually plays SC2 at a diamond+ level understands that SC2 is a relatively balanced game. The imba is slight, but it is still there. You prove nothing in your post.
Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up) Transfusion strategies Contamination Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively
Yes, these things should be put to more use- just like how Warp Prism drops should be used more, or the many other things that Terran and Protoss players have at their disposal that are underused should be used more. At the same time, that's much easier said than done. Do people seriously think that the people who have chosen to play Zerg in SC2 thus far just happen to be the people who are less skilled than the ones that have chosen to play T and P? Does the absolutely disproportionate ratio of P-T-Z players in tournaments (and especially the winners of those tournaments) just lend itself to the idea that Zerg PLAYERS, not the race, are weak? If the numbers and the evidence were not so disproportionate, then I might agree that people are just QQing, and that it's just a difficult race to play correctly. However, a reasonable person who has watched many replays and has experienced many games would not think this to be the case.
In my opinion, Zerg is balanced enough for bliz to release the game and for people to enjoy playing the race competitively. That does not mean the race is balanced. It is weaker than the other races, and it needs changes- but these changes do not need to be extraordinary, but they do need to be made.
It would be pretentious of me to try to say exactly what is wrong with Zerg, just as it is pretentious of anyone to think that they have a solution to fix the race. It is definitely a complicated issue, but people do need to realize that changes are necessary in order for SC2 to be as good of a game as it possibly can be- and so that we can see an even distribution of Pro players throughout the various races in the game.
I think this thread should be more focused on the ZvT MU. ZvP is actually pretty fun and balanced, the only unit that I see and cringe at is the colossus and that can be dealt with by multiple angles of attack. ZvZ is a little degenerate but it isn't any worse than sc:bw ZvZ so I don't think I would make changes with that being the focus either. Really all I see that should be the focus is ZvT.
Because we aren't bringing in the P or T macro equivalent of the queen that could be "taken out" but it does do damage and cost food so I left it in. As you can see the list for zerg is a little more condensed with 2 of the units being morphs and the shift between the 3 races is different.
The bulk of your army can be taken down to these X units before T3 tech (I say bulk because the units not on this list are situational) you have
Zergling Zealot Marine Hydra Sentry Maurader Roach Stalker Siege tank Immortal Hellion Void Ray Banshee* Viking*
Banelings, Mutas, Corruptors, Phoenix, Infestors, Warp prisms, Overseers, Reaper, Ghost, DT, HT are all specific tech that you go for while these units see high amounts of play. The 2 units with asterisks next to them are the viking (heavy play in TvP) and Banshee (would see heavy play if there weren't better options at tech level). You see Immortals quite often (only time you don't is when they are going for colossus timing atk) and players like white-ra use void rays every PvT. While on the zerg end you have the zergling which is great, it dies to plenty but does its job; Hydras see play in most zerg games at one point or another (Best unit to bolster around) and Roach is good against a lot of things but it gets outclassed quickly, especially since it isn't on par with units like marauders and stalkers (Which is arguably the bulk of the other races {bio not mech}). This is where the problem lies and their are quite a few ways to fix it. One is to make Roachs 1f again (Helps early by using less ovies and later by effectively doubling your Roach count) another is to make the lurker again or some other unit that does opens up strats (convienently adding another unit would make Z less stale and boring {I personally don't have a problem with it being stale or w/e}). These are merely a suggestion, I don't pretend to be a game designer or really anyone except an avid player and fan.
Ultras and B-lords are good units that will see their play once the meta evolves and the strats for them emerge. Thor and B-C are good units (Thor is great) that will/have see(n) play. Colossus is an awesome unit and carriers is meh (I didn't care for it in BW either).
tl:dr- I love Zerg but I think it needs something to bolster the ZvT gameplay. I think there are a lot of unseen strats out there and a diverse meta waiting to be shaped but it may need nurturing.
Hm lots of the people in here havent extensively played zerg have they?
On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest:
Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up)
Transfusion strategies
Contamination
Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively
Missing a couple of larva injections in the mid game is hardly game breaking... Stop repeating this useless idea of how it messes everything up.
Transfusion is quite nice, but can only really be decently used for defensive purposes, and that only early game. Any later than that, noone can transfuse in time due to the massive armies and the rate of damage dealing. And of course doesnt even come close to medevacs...
Contamination is decent, I'm using it myself when I get the chance. Ends up being kind of costly tho, still, a nice harrassment technique
Nydus SUCK. Thats it. Researching your overlord upgrades is MUCH MUCH more cost efficient. Nydus can be clubbed to death by a few damn workers for crying out loud.
Mobility -> as was pointed out, stop listening to day9...
On July 22 2010 10:19 waffling1 wrote: it would seem that the spine crawler can pretty much be used as a medium seige tank.
Medium siege tank? WTF? Range of 7 and damage of 25 +5 vs armored, how does this even come close to 13 and 50+?? Spines are an amazing defensive structure, but come on...
On July 22 2010 10:19 waffling1 wrote: also, baneling drops to the econ line. comon.
Currently one of the most inefficient way to kill workers, as I am sure you would know if you played zerg and tried it out.
On July 22 2010 10:13 ckw wrote: Oh yeah and as stated above, the creep tumors could be called IMBA, they give speed/health bonuses
Err, health bonuses? Mustve missed this in the patch notes I guess...
Anyhow, I like zerg quite a lot, and I do believe the problem is mostly the mappool. Seriously, ALL MAPS promote offensive play by terran/protoss and leave zerg with very few ways to defend.
Make maps with at least 2 open ramps to each base area, get rid of all those ledges so freely abused by those units with huge range and awe-inspiring damage and the game will look a lot more different... To be frank, just the 2 open wide ramps will be enough...
PS STOP REPEATING ULTRAS ROCK AND ITS JUST THAT WE ARE NAAABS AND CANT USE THEM!!! Ultras PALE in front of any other tier 3 units and take the longest to tech to
EPT
But saying that Zerg is worse/weaker seems just truly not true at this point.
