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On July 22 2010 21:20 Merikh wrote:
Just to throw this out there. People say zerg is boring, then stop 1 base all in muta/ling every fucking game!
I swear that's like the only strategy I've seen on the US servers phase 2. I've yet to see some creative stuff on ladder.
I find Zerg boring and I try to grab as many expo's as possible...
Blizzard should have left Roach's with their anti-air, Queens with their ability to burrow from hatch to hatch...Lurkers should never have been taken away.
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On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Okay so I can't count how many QQ threads I've seen on Zerg being underpowered how it's uncreative it needs changes blah blah blah. Well I play zerg and I'm constantly around some of the best zergs around and generally I tend to disagree and I'm about to explain why. Tech SwitchesUnlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time. This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units. MobilityThe zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game. Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye. Fungal Growth used effectively can stop the mobility of their opponents completely. Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game with the exeption of the use of mass recall by protoss but that has limited uses when compared to a good nydus network setup. Unit ProductionZerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary. ConclusionZerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest: - Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up)
- Transfusion strategies
- Contamination
- Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration.
Tech Switching: The flip side of that coin is it's impossible to disguise what you're doing. If the opponent sees a Spire, they expect to see Mutas soon after. Even worse, due to creep mechanics, you can't even hide the tech building away from your base (overlord spreading creep elsewhere means that a building can be killed with a single viking...)
Mobility: Sure, burrowed Roaches and Nydus Networks can greatly increase one's mobility, but they're still tactical gimmicks. Suggesting that Zerg should use those tactics to win their games is as ridiculous as me suggesting that Terran should win with Reapers and Banshees...or Protoss should always win with Dark Templar and Pheonixes. Zerg is the only race that can't dictate the game's pace (they're extremely reactionary) and can't win in straight-up battles even with a huge macro advantage.
As for your final points...
SL - the difference between pro SL timing and perfect SL timing is irrelivant. Gas is always the cap on what Zerg can make, not larvae.
Transfusion Strategies - WTF? The only application that could ever work would involve mass creep spreading...and once again, simply abusing a gimmick. Far more can go wrong with offesnsive Queens than can go right.
Contamination - The reason you see Contamination done so little is that if Zerg attempted to do it in mass the opponent would work to prevent it with AA. If Zerg throws down one contamination, alarms don't go off to make mass AA. If Zerg continued using the ability every minute of the game, turrents woudl go up, etc...worth adding, overseers aren't cheep and losing one is a big hit in both cost and supply.
Conclusion:
The gap between the three races will only get wider with time unless Blizzard intervenes. A good Terran player who is willing to adapt and scout often should NEVER lose to an equal skilled Zerg player.
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I played random in phase 1 and settled on Zerg in phase 2. I'm still pretty bad, but I'm still enjoying myself because I feel there's a lot more to occupy my time and keep me interested with Zerg than the other two races. Most people experience this same thing and say that Zerg requires too much management. I think anyone who thinks anything in Starcraft 2 requires too much management has never played Starcraft 1. heh.
The only changes I'd really suggest are moving Hydras to tier 1, lowering their damage a bit and then moving Roaches to T2, make them larger (edit: like a little smaller physically than siege tanks), and buff their damage. While this, of course, would mean big changes for how people approach a vZ match and also fundamentally change how Zerg is currently played, I think in the long run it would work out pretty well. I could write a whole thread on all the positive changes I think it would mean for zerg, but I'll leave it there for now.
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On July 22 2010 22:34 DedOnArrival wrote:
I played random in phase 1 and settled on Zerg in phase 2. I'm still pretty bad, but I'm still enjoying myself because I feel there's a lot more to occupy my time and keep me interested with Zerg than the other two races. Most people experience this same thing and say that Zerg requires too much management. I think anyone who thinks anything in Starcraft 2 requires too much management has never played Starcraft 1. heh.
The only changes I'd really suggest are moving Hydras to tier 1, lowering their damage a bit and then moving Roaches to T2, make them larger (edit: like a little smaller physically than siege tanks), and buff their damage. While this, of course, would mean big changes for how people approach a vZ match and also fundamentally change how Zerg is currently played, I think in the long run it would work out pretty well. I could write a whole thread on all the positive changes I think it would mean for zerg, but I'll leave it there for now.
I agreed with this change a long time ago, but the caveat needs to be another AA unit. If Hydra damage is reduced (and turns into a slightly buffed Marine like in SC1), Zerg has no AA for things like VR's in the early-midgame.
I feel like the Corrupter is a very flawed unit...it's a worthless caster and only AA to Capital Ships...a role somewhat fulfilled by IP on an Infestor.
My guess is that the first exapantion is going to definetely add a T2 non-AA unit to Zerg, fulfilling the role that the Roach would have if it were T2 now.
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On July 22 2010 22:29 Graven wrote:
Tech Switching: The flip side of that coin is it's impossible to disguise what you're doing. If the opponent sees a Spire, they expect to see Mutas soon after. Even worse, due to creep mechanics, you can't even hide the tech building away from your base (overlord spreading creep elsewhere means that a building can be killed with a single viking...)
I wish people wouldn't use words like impossible and so forth. By the time you are at lair you should be underway with creep tumors and it is more than than feasible to at least put your spire/hydra/etc at least a little bit away from your hatchery.
Same with creeping overlord. I wouldn't bet on putting it very far away, but you can certainly use it to place tech in the outskirts of your base.
Also, techswitching does not need to be a ninja move. When you are into the midgame with like 150 supply and a steady economy you can pretty much afford any tech building you want. So what if the opponent sees that you have the buildings? He still dont know what you are going to use your next 20 larva on.
Biggest argument against tech switch is that there reallly isnt any tech switch in the world that can outmanouver Mech.
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On July 22 2010 22:46 Ghad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 22:29 Graven wrote:
Tech Switching: The flip side of that coin is it's impossible to disguise what you're doing. If the opponent sees a Spire, they expect to see Mutas soon after. Even worse, due to creep mechanics, you can't even hide the tech building away from your base (overlord spreading creep elsewhere means that a building can be killed with a single viking...) I wish people wouldn't use words like impossible and so forth. By the time you are at lair you should be underway with creep tumors and it is more than than feasible to at least put your spire/hydra/etc at least a little bit away from your hatchery. Same with creeping overlord. I wouldn't bet on putting it very far away, but you can certainly use it to place tech in the outskirts of your base. Also, techswitching does not need to be a ninja move. When you are into the midgame with like 150 supply and a steady economy you can pretty much afford any tech building you want. So what if the opponent sees that you have the buildings? He still dont know what you are going to use your next 20 larva on. Biggest argument against tech switch is that there reallly isnt any tech switch in the world that can outmanouver Mech.
You make it sound like "tech switching" is easy and cost-effective for Zerg. If a Zerg player goes Lair and fast Spire and the Spire is scouted, it's a HUGE disadvantage. Not only did you have to waste 17 minutes building the Spire, but the 5-6 Mutas you make immediately after NEED to do a ton of damage to make it worth while. A Scan+Turret means the Zerg player is playing behind the rest of the game.
As for a "tech switch" that can beat Mech, Zerg can go mass Roach/Brolord and be very effective against Mech, but again, the problem is the Terran versatility. As soon as the Terran scouts the Greater Spire, they can have a dozen Vikings waiting for the attack.
The disadvantage for Zerg is inherent in design, not conclusive to against mech. Zerg are in a position where they must both react to what the opponent is doing AND out-macro/out-mass the appropriate response. Zerg has no real "hard" counters, whereas Terran have nearly an entire race of hard counters, making it possible for them to counter the counter with exponentially greater effiency and speed than Zerg.
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What I think is kinda fun (and is an argument that is used since SC/BW):
Terra: Yuu decide between Mech and Bio because of your UPGRADES!!!
Terra to Zerg: Your strenght is to techswitch fast! Upgrades suddenly don't count anymore as an argument to stay on Meele/Range or Air.
Don't get me wrong, it's fine as it is, but the argument itself is funny and stupid and will ever be funny and stupid.
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On July 22 2010 22:18 arnold(soTa) wrote:
you missed my point entirely, you need flawless injections (meaning you inject larvae the instant your larvae spawns) to contend with terran/protoss unit production. and that is close to impossible.. missing mules and chronos does NOT hurt in teh same way BECAUSE YOU CAN CAST MULTIPLE AT ONCE.
This should be queite clear..
Yes, but P/T must flawlessly queue every unit before the previous one finishes (or use warpgate cooldown immediately) to avoid wasting production time. Queen injection is the only thing that makes our macro equal to theirs, otherwise it would just be 5szzzzzzzzzz all the time. We can choose to PRODUCE units FROM LARVA at any time, and larva will continue to spawn with no loss of production (up to the cap of 3). Adding the Queen makes Zerg have to actually look at our bases once in a while.
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What zerg really needs
What I think would help Zerg the most would be more large maps with wide open areas. You really don't get to utilize most of zerg's strengths on the 2 player maps, where you see players like Dimaga just do baneling busts and allins - probably cos he feels it's the most viable playstyle for those maps.
Nydus worms and drops etc. aren't that underutilized but there just isn't a big chance to get to use them on certain maps and occasions safely. Usually you want 3+ bases before Nydus starts feeling worth the gas investment, which you'd otherwise have to spend on units and upgrades.
For example ZvT on small maps seems hellish since the terran can just turtle on 2 bases with turrets covering every angle of his base until he's ready to push out with an unstoppable mech force. It makes the whole "abuse the terran immobility" quote a bit void on these maps: there's not a lot of immobility to abuse since the distances are so short and the maps so one dimensional.
Maps like Meta and LT actually make playing zerg feel a lot more diverse and you just generally feel like you have a lot more options at your disposal. I wouldn't mind seeing a few even larger maps with more wide open areas to get to see more multitasking, flanking and real macro battles.
Other points in the OP
Transfusion strategies: Transfusion is awesome but like frenzy, it reaches its full potential with T3 units (ultras, broodlords) that get the most out of the heals. The problem is surviving up to this point on smaller maps, where guerilla tactics lose some of their viability.
Contamination: Using one overseer for scouting and delaying tech or unit production is cool but mass producing them seems way too gas heavy even on bigger maps. I've had most success with it delaying colossi production with the first overseer and later dropping in his base killing the tech. It's definately something to use, but on a small scale.
Conclusion
The points in the OP are definately good, but I feel like they're something that can refine zerg play rather than address the real underlying issues zergs have been having. The biggest issue I see with zerg is these small maps that pigeonhole zerg into a certain style of play which isn't really entertaining to watch nor fun to play.
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On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Okay so I can't count how many QQ threads I've seen on Zerg being underpowered how it's uncreative it needs changes blah blah blah. Well I play zerg and I'm constantly around some of the best zergs around and generally I tend to disagree and I'm about to explain why. Tech Switches+ Show Spoiler +
Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time.
This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units.
The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game. Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye. Fungal Growth used effectively can stop the mobility of their opponents completely. Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game with the exeption of the use of mass recall by protoss but that has limited uses when compared to a good nydus network setup.
Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary.
Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest: - Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up)
- Transfusion strategies
- Contamination
- Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration.
I mostly disagree with you. Being a 400-500ish diamond Zerg myself (and 500ish protoss) at phase 2 (on different accounts) and practicing with one of the most famous zerg "SLush" almost every week makes me think that you are wrong on some of your points). Altho I agree that you made some valid points I think that whats being said about zerg is true.
Tech Switches
Altho I agree that zergs can switch tech on a dime, there is currently a problem on "how fast you can get those NEEDED techs". vP colossus will always get out before you can get your tier3 (ultralisk/broolords) and will annihilate your zerglins/ hydra/ roache force. The collosus is an EASY unit to micro and is REALLY potent on many maps. You can get corrupters to deal with them but in all honesty most protoss players including myself get soooo many stalkers that it's almost not good to get corrupter. If you stop for a sec to get hydras or roaches you are dead... so ultralisks normaly comes late (aka when your opp has around 4-5 colossus) and you just have to hope that he's not going to do TOO much damage or make some mistakes before you get ultras. Altho I agree that ZvP is probably the most balanced matchup right now. vT thors/tank are normaly out by the time you can get infestors/hydralisks and to fight tanks/thors you definaly need either ultras or broods. So this is where 1 problem resides.
Mobility
I find it funny that in SC2 players still tend to say that zerg has alot of mobility. In SC:BW zerg DEFINATLY had alot of mobility and I would agree with you that any zergs not abusing mobility in SC:BW would lose... but FFS SC2 zerg has mobility ONLY on creep. Zerg mobility in SC2 is clearly an UTOPIA or you're basicaly talking about speedlings? Creep = defensive not offensive and currently where zergs lacks the most is OFFENSIVE. As far as AIR mobility I find the phoenix to be more "mobile" than any zerg air force. Nydus is laughed by alot of pro simply cause the worm can get killed in the 3hrs it takes to get him out and finaly if you get him out units will get out 1 by 1 can you spell "D u c k S h o o t i n g R a n g e" ??  I mean if your army would get all out at once... it would be FREAKING good perhaps too good. but right now a 3hrs build time that cost OOOHHHH so many gaz and than you have this 1 by 1 unit getting out... please to say that nydus is a valid solution.... It's rather a cheese you can use early game to slip in some banelings. Also... on maps such as Kulas Ravine, Lost Temple.... I'd say that Terran has alot more "mobility" than zergs. Hell late game protoss with blink/colossus and air has alot more mobility than zergs.
Unit Production
I do agree with you that zergs unit production is kinda good. However the queen larva injection IS the most obnoxius macro ability compared to the 2 other races. It really requires dedication and you're being punished for keeping energy on your queens. Terrans has 150 energy? no problem trade them for ~900 minerals right away a DT is in your base "LOL" I missed a mule CD and I'm now rewarded for it. Protoss has 150 energy? Boom 3 techs are being researched at the speed of light I need more probes boom! done!. Zerg has 150 energy? eh... well i'll do a creeptumor here and there... oh and there... and there... and.... there... ahh my unit has taken 12 damage here transfuse. See what I mean? I do agree that when kept on top of the game queen is really strong but you don't get anything else. Also I want to point out that queen is the ONLY air support zerg has in tier 1 and 1.5 and yet loosing to 1 voidray and 1 banshee. Basicaly you need 1.67 queen PER voidray/banshee and while they are defending air you're not using your superb macro ability while the protoss and terrans are just laughing.... which is ridiculous! On the other hand, if you really get to late game and finaly get a 200/200 army, if it gets decimated (which it will be) you'll be able to get your 200/200 back in no time... so I somewhat agree with you on this point.
Conclusion
Or should I say reflection, I know that the game (or rather the beta) hasn't been studied as BW, but I must admit that Zergs unit choices isn't that hard to find since they have sooo few units and each units are used against X composition. I mean protoss and terrans will find new things to do with their 12 and 13 units but zergs with 9 units.... I mean common the race has already been viewed and studied in and out. I also want to point some FACTS:
1. A lot of whining/complaints from zergs, mostly none from protoss and none from terrans at all
2. Terrans/Protoss are dominating latest tournaments
3. Best random player switching to terran. Because he wins more games with it. As simple as that (speaking of TLO) and to be honest he was a REALLY good zerg... so why not choosing zerg?
4. Most statistics showing lacks of zerg players in the top ranking
5. Games, where terran fails to properly harass/attack opponent and yet they are leading.
6. Miracle comebacks. I've never seen them in Zerg
7. Games, where zerg are in clear advantage and somehow lose without doing any major mistake.
8. Some complaints from pros (Dimaga, IdrA......).
9. Several pro players currently playing Zergs are currently thinking on switching if blizzard don't fix zergs starting with one of the most known zerg (idra) and calculated by alot of player like THE BEST zerg. Altho I don't think he's THE BEST zerg (I think that sen was better) I still think that he's freaking good. I mean, I'm not Albert Einstein but when THE BEST zerg player is currently saying that zerg sucks and plans on switching to terran....... it says alot. If the best zerg fails to prove us all wrong how to you want to masses to be with you?
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+1!!!! Zerg are just fine, and I love them.
One more thing that makes us awesome in addition to everything said is that we have the most "drop ships". 
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On July 22 2010 07:22 floor exercise wrote:
I don't like how bad they are off creep, that's my biggest complaint. I feel almost encouraged not to leave creep unless I can absolutely win with an a-move
Thats kinda why zerg is awesome imo- they can expand like crazy, and you cant touch them on their home ground cuz they are too fast. Then, if you let them get out of control- they kill you with an a-move .
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Rather we have to try and expand like crazy because we need to be 2+ bases to our opponent?
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2010 23:28 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Okay so I can't count how many QQ threads I've seen on Zerg being underpowered how it's uncreative it needs changes blah blah blah. Well I play zerg and I'm constantly around some of the best zergs around and generally I tend to disagree and I'm about to explain why. Tech Switches+ Show Spoiler +
Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time.
This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units.
The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game. Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye. Fungal Growth used effectively can stop the mobility of their opponents completely. Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game with the exeption of the use of mass recall by protoss but that has limited uses when compared to a good nydus network setup.
Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary.
Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest: - Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up)
- Transfusion strategies
- Contamination
- Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration. I mostly disagree with you. Being a 400-500ish diamond Zerg myself (and 500ish protoss) at phase 2 (on different accounts) and practicing with one of the most famous zerg "SLush" almost every week makes me think that you are wrong on some of your points). Altho I agree that you made some valid points I think that whats being said about zerg is true. Tech SwitchesAltho I agree that zergs can switch tech on a dime, there is currently a problem on "how fast you can get those NEEDED techs". vP colossus will always get out before you can get your tier3 (ultralisk/broolords) and will annihilate your zerglins/ hydra/ roache force. The collosus is an EASY unit to micro and is REALLY potent on many maps. You can get corrupters to deal with them but in all honesty most protoss players including myself get soooo many stalkers that it's almost not good to get corrupter. If you stop for a sec to get hydras or roaches you are dead... so ultralisks normaly comes late (aka when your opp has around 4-5 colossus) and you just have to hope that he's not going to do TOO much damage or make some mistakes before you get ultras. Altho I agree that ZvP is probably the most balanced matchup right now. vT thors/tank are normaly out by the time you can get infestors/hydralisks and to fight tanks/thors you definaly need either ultras or broods. So this is where 1 problem resides. MobilityI find it funny that in SC2 players still tend to say that zerg has alot of mobility. In SC:BW zerg DEFINATLY had alot of mobility and I would agree with you that any zergs not abusing mobility in SC:BW would lose... but FFS SC2 zerg has mobility ONLY on creep. Zerg mobility in SC2 is clearly an UTOPIA or you're basicaly talking about speedlings? Creep = defensive not offensive and currently where zergs lacks the most is OFFENSIVE. As far as AIR mobility I find the phoenix to be more "mobile" than any zerg air force. Nydus is laughed by alot of pro simply cause the worm can get killed in the 3hrs it takes to get him out and finaly if you get him out units will get out 1 by 1 can you spell "D u c k S h o o t i n g R a n g e" ?? I mean if your army would get all out at once... it would be FREAKING good perhaps too good. but right now a 3hrs build time that cost OOOHHHH so many gaz and than you have this 1 by 1 unit getting out... please to say that nydus is a valid solution.... It's rather a cheese you can use early game to slip in some banelings. Also... on maps such as Kulas Ravine, Lost Temple.... I'd say that Terran has alot more "mobility" than zergs. Hell late game protoss with blink/colossus and air has alot more mobility than zergs. Unit ProductionI do agree with you that zergs unit production is kinda good. However the queen larva injection IS the most obnoxius macro ability compared to the 2 other races. It really requires dedication and you're being punished for keeping energy on your queens. Terrans has 150 energy? no problem trade them for ~900 minerals right away a DT is in your base "LOL" I missed a mule CD and I'm now rewarded for it. Protoss has 150 energy? Boom 3 techs are being researched at the speed of light I need more probes boom! done!. Zerg has 150 energy? eh... well i'll do a creeptumor here and there... oh and there... and there... and.... there... ahh my unit has taken 12 damage here transfuse. See what I mean? I do agree that when kept on top of the game queen is really strong but you don't get anything else. Also I want to point out that queen is the ONLY air support zerg has in tier 1 and 1.5 and yet loosing to 1 voidray and 1 banshee. Basicaly you need 1.67 queen PER voidray/banshee and while they are defending air you're not using your superb macro ability while the protoss and terrans are just laughing.... which is ridiculous! On the other hand, if you really get to late game and finaly get a 200/200 army, if it gets decimated (which it will be) you'll be able to get your 200/200 back in no time... so I somewhat agree with you on this point. ConclusionOr should I say reflection, I know that the game (or rather the beta) hasn't been studied as BW, but I must admit that Zergs unit choices isn't that hard to find since they have sooo few units and each units are used against X composition. I mean protoss and terrans will find new things to do with their 12 and 13 units but zergs with 9 units.... I mean common the race has already been viewed and studied in and out. I also want to point some FACTS: 1. A lot of whining/complaints from zergs, mostly none from protoss and none from terrans at all 2. Terrans/Protoss are dominating latest tournaments 3. Best random player switching to terran. Because he wins more games with it. As simple as that (speaking of TLO) and to be honest he was a REALLY good zerg... so why not choosing zerg? 4. Most statistics showing lacks of zerg players in the top ranking 5. Games, where terran fails to properly harass/attack opponent and yet they are leading. 6. Miracle comebacks. I've never seen them in Zerg 7. Games, where zerg are in clear advantage and somehow lose without doing any major mistake. 8. Some complaints from pros (Dimaga, IdrA......). 9. Several pro players currently playing Zergs are currently thinking on switching if blizzard don't fix zergs starting with one of the most known zerg (idra) and calculated by alot of player like THE BEST zerg. Altho I don't think he's THE BEST zerg (I think that sen was better) I still think that he's freaking good. I mean, I'm not Albert Einstein but when THE BEST zerg player is currently saying that zerg sucks and plans on switching to terran....... it says alot. If the best zerg fails to prove us all wrong how to you want to masses to be with you?
Wish I could +1 you, hit the nail on the head.
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On July 22 2010 23:25 Uranium wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 22:18 arnold(soTa) wrote:
you missed my point entirely, you need flawless injections (meaning you inject larvae the instant your larvae spawns) to contend with terran/protoss unit production. and that is close to impossible.. missing mules and chronos does NOT hurt in teh same way BECAUSE YOU CAN CAST MULTIPLE AT ONCE.
This should be queite clear..
Yes, but P/T must flawlessly queue every unit before the previous one finishes (or use warpgate cooldown immediately) to avoid wasting production time. Queen injection is the only thing that makes our macro equal to theirs, otherwise it would just be 5szzzzzzzzzz all the time. We can choose to PRODUCE units FROM LARVA at any time, and larva will continue to spawn with no loss of production (up to the cap of 3). Adding the Queen makes Zerg have to actually look at our bases once in a while.
that is actually a very good point, but I still think its harder to maintain seemless injections than pump units with hotkeys.
Remember that Z also has to produce units, and has to expand the creep.. which is now so gimped with the tumor being made half as good in the latest patch going from 15 to 30 seconds.
Honestly I think its good that you have to be very active with your macro as Zerg.
My complaint was more geared towards terran/protoss being much easier in that way rather than Zerg being hard: )
Like imagine if every 25 realtime seconds or wahtever the number exactly is, you had to go back to your orbital command and put down a mule, or you would lose the energy :-O) that is kinda the spot Z is in.
Sure you can spend the extra energy on creep tumors but Its most often not worth migrating a queen to inject on another hatchery/expansion unless you have a very good creepspread.. maybe queens should get a speedbuff ON creep and remain as slow off it? I duno... I dont really like Zerg being slow unless they are on creep, its cool in theory but doesnt really fit well with gameplay imo. Zergs tend to expand and react-
Opponent expands because you expanded? you take a third, possibly a fourth.
opponent techs? you counter it while harassing ..etc I dont think Zerg has many offensive options early game at all, except banelingbusts which are effective dont get me wrong, but I disslike the all-inisch nature of that strategy.
Like what can a Zerg do at tier1 ? speedlings and roaches...roaches move horrendously slow off creep - so much so that its basiclly not worth attacking often because you cant really retreat if need be. also he will have 9 bases by the time you get there speedlings are nice, but not like in sc1 because of the easy fashion in which any P/T can wallin.
I think it was a big misstake moving hydras to tier2. That is prob my biggest gripe with Zerg in sc2. I still enjoy playing Z but I wont give up playing Terran just yet.. I still need a big gun to pull out in a tournament if need be :D
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i agree with your post. I think the majority of the complaining is that i think zerg is equally strong, but hardest to pick up to decent level of play and they perceive this as imbalance. New players will struggle very hard with zerg at the start. I personally was stuck in gold (phase 1) until i got my build orders and "when to drone" timing down. I was in platinum right before they introduced diamond league and i was still only about 50%. After taking the break to watch replays and VODS i started spreading creep properly and learned some timing of when to use queen energy, and started using infestors more, and learning how to manage my money to essentially just to have the units i need. I quickly moved up to diamond and im only doing about a 1/4 of the things i know i need to do to use zerg at its potential. I think zerg has a longer learning curve to get to a competant level of play. (mimicing pro's without the precision) It will take quite some time before most of these tools the zerg has become second nature and they start getting creative, but eventually people will be like "ok so maybe i lied about zerg being weak". Of course there will always be complainers.
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I'm not entirely sure about Zerg being even with the other two races. As a Protoss player, PvZ and PvT both feel almost perfectly balanced to me, but from watching and hearing about ZvTs, I just don't see how anybody could call them balanced. Every solution that I have heard people propose requires the Zerg to be so much more active and skilled than the Terran, while the Terran needs to do relatively very little. Essentially, Zerg need to be constantly attacking at every possible location, scouting, harassing, and expanding, while Terran just need to macro off of 2 bases and park tanks in a few locations with good positioning. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, but that's essentially what I've seen and heard, and that's really not fair.
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On July 23 2010 00:12 Azile wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2010 23:28 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Okay so I can't count how many QQ threads I've seen on Zerg being underpowered how it's uncreative it needs changes blah blah blah. Well I play zerg and I'm constantly around some of the best zergs around and generally I tend to disagree and I'm about to explain why. Tech Switches+ Show Spoiler +
Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time.
This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units.
The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game. Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye. Fungal Growth used effectively can stop the mobility of their opponents completely. Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game with the exeption of the use of mass recall by protoss but that has limited uses when compared to a good nydus network setup.
Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary.
Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest: - Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up)
- Transfusion strategies
- Contamination
- Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration. I mostly disagree with you. Being a 400-500ish diamond Zerg myself (and 500ish protoss) at phase 2 (on different accounts) and practicing with one of the most famous zerg "SLush" almost every week makes me think that you are wrong on some of your points). Altho I agree that you made some valid points I think that whats being said about zerg is true. Tech SwitchesAltho I agree that zergs can switch tech on a dime, there is currently a problem on "how fast you can get those NEEDED techs". vP colossus will always get out before you can get your tier3 (ultralisk/broolords) and will annihilate your zerglins/ hydra/ roache force. The collosus is an EASY unit to micro and is REALLY potent on many maps. You can get corrupters to deal with them but in all honesty most protoss players including myself get soooo many stalkers that it's almost not good to get corrupter. If you stop for a sec to get hydras or roaches you are dead... so ultralisks normaly comes late (aka when your opp has around 4-5 colossus) and you just have to hope that he's not going to do TOO much damage or make some mistakes before you get ultras. Altho I agree that ZvP is probably the most balanced matchup right now. vT thors/tank are normaly out by the time you can get infestors/hydralisks and to fight tanks/thors you definaly need either ultras or broods. So this is where 1 problem resides. MobilityI find it funny that in SC2 players still tend to say that zerg has alot of mobility. In SC:BW zerg DEFINATLY had alot of mobility and I would agree with you that any zergs not abusing mobility in SC:BW would lose... but FFS SC2 zerg has mobility ONLY on creep. Zerg mobility in SC2 is clearly an UTOPIA or you're basicaly talking about speedlings? Creep = defensive not offensive and currently where zergs lacks the most is OFFENSIVE. As far as AIR mobility I find the phoenix to be more "mobile" than any zerg air force. Nydus is laughed by alot of pro simply cause the worm can get killed in the 3hrs it takes to get him out and finaly if you get him out units will get out 1 by 1 can you spell "D u c k S h o o t i n g R a n g e" ?? I mean if your army would get all out at once... it would be FREAKING good perhaps too good. but right now a 3hrs build time that cost OOOHHHH so many gaz and than you have this 1 by 1 unit getting out... please to say that nydus is a valid solution.... It's rather a cheese you can use early game to slip in some banelings. Also... on maps such as Kulas Ravine, Lost Temple.... I'd say that Terran has alot more "mobility" than zergs. Hell late game protoss with blink/colossus and air has alot more mobility than zergs. Unit ProductionI do agree with you that zergs unit production is kinda good. However the queen larva injection IS the most obnoxius macro ability compared to the 2 other races. It really requires dedication and you're being punished for keeping energy on your queens. Terrans has 150 energy? no problem trade them for ~900 minerals right away a DT is in your base "LOL" I missed a mule CD and I'm now rewarded for it. Protoss has 150 energy? Boom 3 techs are being researched at the speed of light I need more probes boom! done!. Zerg has 150 energy? eh... well i'll do a creeptumor here and there... oh and there... and there... and.... there... ahh my unit has taken 12 damage here transfuse. See what I mean? I do agree that when kept on top of the game queen is really strong but you don't get anything else. Also I want to point out that queen is the ONLY air support zerg has in tier 1 and 1.5 and yet loosing to 1 voidray and 1 banshee. Basicaly you need 1.67 queen PER voidray/banshee and while they are defending air you're not using your superb macro ability while the protoss and terrans are just laughing.... which is ridiculous! On the other hand, if you really get to late game and finaly get a 200/200 army, if it gets decimated (which it will be) you'll be able to get your 200/200 back in no time... so I somewhat agree with you on this point. ConclusionOr should I say reflection, I know that the game (or rather the beta) hasn't been studied as BW, but I must admit that Zergs unit choices isn't that hard to find since they have sooo few units and each units are used against X composition. I mean protoss and terrans will find new things to do with their 12 and 13 units but zergs with 9 units.... I mean common the race has already been viewed and studied in and out. I also want to point some FACTS: 1. A lot of whining/complaints from zergs, mostly none from protoss and none from terrans at all 2. Terrans/Protoss are dominating latest tournaments 3. Best random player switching to terran. Because he wins more games with it. As simple as that (speaking of TLO) and to be honest he was a REALLY good zerg... so why not choosing zerg? 4. Most statistics showing lacks of zerg players in the top ranking 5. Games, where terran fails to properly harass/attack opponent and yet they are leading. 6. Miracle comebacks. I've never seen them in Zerg 7. Games, where zerg are in clear advantage and somehow lose without doing any major mistake. 8. Some complaints from pros (Dimaga, IdrA......). 9. Several pro players currently playing Zergs are currently thinking on switching if blizzard don't fix zergs starting with one of the most known zerg (idra) and calculated by alot of player like THE BEST zerg. Altho I don't think he's THE BEST zerg (I think that sen was better) I still think that he's freaking good. I mean, I'm not Albert Einstein but when THE BEST zerg player is currently saying that zerg sucks and plans on switching to terran....... it says alot. If the best zerg fails to prove us all wrong how to you want to masses to be with you? Wish I could +1 you, hit the nail on the head.
Same, I would say that zerg is not weaker than protoss or terran but in their current state no matter how much their macro and mechanics are lovable, the way the race is currently designed it will be dead last for years to come.
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yes i see that zerg is good when i read ur post but i also can see p and t very good so i dont see why we must talk about it
its starcraft 2 EVERY race must be good oh man guys 4 1/2 days left !!
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Something to note on macro zerg macro play is that there's a paradox between the design of the race and large battles. A lot has to do with where the battle takes place
The zerg were designed to be reactionary in military, and aggressive economically. I don't think many people would dispute this. Creep, queens, etc are designed more as a defensive mechanic. However, when it comes to the mid-late game, the fact is that the zerg 200 supply army will wipe versus a terran or protoss 200 supply army considering equal control and unit composition.
The zerg player can remake quite fast, faster than any other race, but that does take SOME time. That means that the end game zerg player better make sure that the fight happens at the opponent's front door and not his. If it happens on your front door, no amount of larvae is going to produce instantly to give you enough units to defend the army that just crushed yours. At the very least, if your battle was in the center, you have a little bit of time to remake.
This fact though goes against the other fact that you have been playing defensively all game. There's no way to contain your opponent without the lurker until you get brood lords, so it is more likely that you are the one contained, albeit on more bases. If you are the one contained, how is it you can make sure that the major battle takes place on the enemy's front door? More likely due to the mechanics present, that the battle takes place on your front, and although you set your larvae to be making, the damage you take to your base before you can reinforce most times can cause you to lose. By the way, you're not the only one reinforcing. Most good t and P players will macro up just as much as you.
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