EPTWhy Zerg is Good - Page 14
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On July 23 2010 04:55 DanielD wrote: I think I already answered these questions... game one he massed lings rather than expand or tech which was a mistake in terms of responses to the cannon rush I feel, obviously a gateway wall with a sentry behind it nullifies mass ling, especially that far into the game. Game 2 he got fooled! He didn't see the collosi until it was too late. He needed corrupters. But I am going to re-watch Game 2 and tell you what I think. humm I'm sorry but I can't agree with you on these. Game#1 If he had expanded or double expanded than teched it would have been WAYYYY tooo late. I mean... it was a do or die. Tester had 4 gates and was about to get his expand running. Being THAT late vs a protoss is a no go... and I know what I'm talking about since I play protoss at 500 diamond level. I just want you to realise something. Could IdrA have been better early on? I mean... not getting caged like a stupid fawk? I doupt it. As pro as he can be... this trick is done with 2 pylons and 1 canon?! he send drones to start hitting and than proceeded. Would you personaly have done better!? I doupt it... not that I say that you are newb, just that I doupt you and I are IdrA's level. When he decided it was time to attack IdrA was denied with 1x Zealot 2x Sentry 1x Canon .... ?!?! Game #2 He out expanded Tester, his macro was awesome. He survived the early stage blah blah blah.... he saw the Collosus when he sent the "changeling" in. Which was around 2-3 mins before tester did the final push but at this time it was alraedy too late. You also can't expect a zerg to know everything on the map at the verry second it's made. Its stupid to ask such a thing from players. Protoss don't have to scout if there is a spire or ultra cavern HELL they are doing it ANYWAY! Conclusion: I don't know you and don't know your level. But I know that we're both not at the level of tester and idra so their might be even more than we are actualy see. The facts stays. They are currently playing for 3000$ so it's not a joke. if they are doing something its cause they think they are doing whats best for them. | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
I re-watched Game 2... Idra had a chance at 8:30 (going off of day 9's blip archive footage) to take out the majority of not all of Tester's units at the watchtower, take the center and expand to the gold. He also took his natural and 3rd gases late, if you look at his resources when Idra maxes he's at 1000 mins and 0 gas. Idra was pretty rich when that battle ended, if he had dropped a spire earlier(which he could have done had he not been so gas-deficient), when his changeling saw those 2 collosi he could have put out some corrupters or muta and had a much better chance of winning.... he gg'd because he didn't manage to kill 1 collosus in that first engagement. He also had ZERO roaches, having pure hydra-ling means the lings dissapear instantly and then the hydra are ALL getting hit, roaches in the mix, although they have a lower dps than hydra and thats something you might not want to sacrifice in your 200/200 army, don't sit at the same range as hydra and so cause the collosi to be less effective. Also Idra was at much higher supply than Tester but rather than attack at all let Tester max and come to him... more agressive creep spreading would have allowed Idra to do a lot more... Plus Idra didn't even have vision of the destructible rocks path, sort of weird. Just saw your reply... As far as game 1 goes, yes the cannon rush really screwed Idra, but 2nd hatch in base was the worst response he could have possibly made. 1 base zerg can do some damage, but those 300 minerals ended up being a complete waste. And you keep saying: The facts stays. They are currently playing for 3000$ so it's not a joke. if they are doing something its cause they think they are doing whats best for them. which doesn't matter. It doesn't mean Idra played well. You actually can expect zerg to know everything that's being built... that's what overlords are for. Should be checking for stuff every minute or so, not twice in the whole game. It's not like Tester had his whole base cannoned. | ||
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Ashera
Canada202 Posts
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
I would like to know which race you are playing cause it might be the reason you're not seeing the same things. Anyways thats all for me today... I have to get home and do some shiets while the game is down! Thx for this civilised discution Daniel | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On July 23 2010 05:21 Konsume wrote: Oh well I tried... but we're definatly not seeing the game with the same eyes! I would like to know which race you are playing cause it might be the reason you're not seeing the same things. Anyways thats all for me today... I have to get home and do some shiets while the game is down! Thx for this civilised discution Daniel Opinions are opinions  Thanks to you as well I play Terran by the way, although I have played Z for about a month and am going to learn to play Protoss when the 27th comes. | ||
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Motion
Germany183 Posts
1. You can better harass then Zerg especially in early game. 2. You don't need to take that much macro risk. I mean every Zerg has to learn hard timings just to not end the game with only drones. .. 3. Yes you can tech switch, but is is often not much an surprise, because of the leak in unit diversity and builds are very limited. 4. You have to play sauron zerg, if you do not, you will loose 75% of your games. So the other races are much more flexible in there builds and tactics and they can focus more on micro if they want. | ||
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
Raelcun's counter to a lot of things was using fungal, but if you're good enough to be using fungal that well and your opponent is equally skilled then your opponent can micro out of it or never even let you get it off. My biggest issue with zerg now is I always feel like zerg is playing from behind, even with an early expand. In BW if your early expo wasn't stopped, it was much more difficult to beat you. I don't think IdrA is that good by any means, just my opinion, but if you do check out his games even when he gets 3 bases running early at the same time, he can still easily lose if he doesn't do everything perfectly. I actually prefer 1 base zerg just because I feel that's the only time zerg can have tech advantage: speedling/roach against P and speedling/baneling/maybe roach against T, but even those are pretty easily stopped if they know it's coming. | ||
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hyouro
Denmark45 Posts
Don't think I will point out more things atm ;D ;D | ||
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
On July 23 2010 05:13 DanielD wrote: @Konsume: I re-watched Game 2... Idra had a chance at 8:30 (going off of day 9's blip archive footage) to take out the majority of not all of Tester's units at the watchtower, take the center and expand to the gold. He also took his natural and 3rd gases late, if you look at his resources when Idra maxes he's at 1000 mins and 0 gas. Idra was pretty rich when that battle ended, if he had dropped a spire earlier(which he could have done had he not been so gas-deficient), when his changeling saw those 2 collosi he could have put out some corrupters or muta and had a much better chance of winning.... he gg'd because he didn't manage to kill 1 collosus in that first engagement. He also had ZERO roaches, having pure hydra-ling means the lings dissapear instantly and then the hydra are ALL getting hit, roaches in the mix, although they have a lower dps than hydra and thats something you might not want to sacrifice in your 200/200 army, don't sit at the same range as hydra and so cause the collosi to be less effective. Also Idra was at much higher supply than Tester but rather than attack at all let Tester max and come to him... more agressive creep spreading would have allowed Idra to do a lot more... Plus Idra didn't even have vision of the destructible rocks path, sort of weird. Just saw your reply... As far as game 1 goes, yes the cannon rush really screwed Idra, but 2nd hatch in base was the worst response he could have possibly made. 1 base zerg can do some damage, but those 300 minerals ended up being a complete waste. And you keep saying: which doesn't matter. It doesn't mean Idra played well. You actually can expect zerg to know everything that's being built... that's what overlords are for. Should be checking for stuff every minute or so, not twice in the whole game. It's not like Tester had his whole base cannoned. Yeah I completely agree (you saved me some writing). In game 1 I don't think the cannon rush screwed IdrA I feel idra panics when he easily could of played that game out. Game 2 - His overseer scouted the double robo right as the big collosus push is heading out (He lacked scouting). He had 2 units that are completely vulnerable to collosus (Tester just reacted correctly) he could of throw down a spire or even teched to ultra off 3 base much earlier which does amazing damage to protoss. Idra made a mistake in game 2 and gave up in game one. That doesn't say something's wrong with zerg, because Idra didn't win; he wasn't mentally focused from what I've seen. Then IdrA comes back and 2-1's Huk. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
If you one base you are usually doing roach or baneling push, that's it. I know it's always been the case but here it's a lot harder to defend that expansion as 1base play with other races is so strong. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
I think its a very big advantage. Think about the ZvP game from the King of the Beta (think it was IdrA vs Huk ... not sure) toss came with mass Collosis, and the Zerg could counter it relatively easy with Corrupters, because Zerg can tech-switch super fast. A terran or Protoss would have had much more problems with it. Also When a Zerg player looses drones, he can make ten new ones in a blink. Terran and Toss need to make them one by one. Conclusion Tech switch big advantage | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On July 23 2010 06:57 Piski wrote: I don't consider zerg as a bad race but with them you are always two steps behind and zerg is the only race that can't really play from one base. If you one base you are usually doing roach or baneling push, that's it. I know it's always been the case but here it's a lot harder to defend that expansion as 1base play with other races is so strong. IMO terran cant one base mech either. It costs to much gas, and bio vs roaches lings is a good match-up | ||
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hyouro
Denmark45 Posts
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Azile
United States339 Posts
On July 23 2010 06:59 Deckkie wrote: About the Tech switch I think its a very big advantage. Think about the ZvP game from the King of the Beta (think it was IdrA vs Huk ... not sure) toss came with mass Collosis, and the Zerg could counter it relatively easy with Corrupters, because Zerg can tech-switch super fast. A terran or Protoss would have had much more problems with it. Also When a Zerg player looses drones, he can make ten new ones in a blink. Terran and Toss need to make them one by one. Conclusion Tech switch big advantage Summary: You didn't watch the game very closely. You have no concept of the relationship between making drones and making combat units as zerg. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On July 23 2010 07:01 Azile wrote: Summary: You didn't watch the game very closely. You have no concept of the relationship between making drones and making combat units as zerg. Well... Terran or Toss wouldn't be able to make that many anti Collosis units and that short period of time. And for the drone thing, If I lost probes I would absolutely spend 150 minerals at ones to resupply my probes. Which I cant cuz I can only make one at a time edit: but your right, I have hardly played Zerg, so your probably right | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On July 23 2010 07:00 Deckkie wrote: IMO terran cant one base mech either. It costs to much gas, and bio vs roaches lings is a good match-up Making 10 drones means you won't have 10 army units fighting those 10 units T or P just made. Don't get me wrong I don't consider zerg to be severely underpowered, maybe an underdog. Tech switching is a big deal yes but as I said zerg is always two steps behind. The tech switching usually happens only to counter opponents forces and now it's just a zerg player bitching but T/P usually already has hard/soft counters to anything zerg can throw at them. So it usually goes like if you fast tech switch to mutas and he happens to have a thor that's it, it's lights out for zerg as he spent so much on that and didn't do anything. But like I said I don't consider zerg to be UP, I just think they have lost their ability to dictate the game. | ||
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hyouro
Denmark45 Posts
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starcat
66 Posts
On July 23 2010 06:59 Deckkie wrote: About the Tech switch I think its a very big advantage. Think about the ZvP game from the King of the Beta (think it was IdrA vs Huk ... not sure) toss came with mass Collosis, and the Zerg could counter it relatively easy with Corrupters, because Zerg can tech-switch super fast. A terran or Protoss would have had much more problems with it. Also When a Zerg player looses drones, he can make ten new ones in a blink. Terran and Toss need to make them one by one. Conclusion Tech switch big advantage Making corruptors isnt a tech switch lol. Scout colossi, make corruptors. Scout colossi, make vikings (with reactor potentially). Harder as terran or toss? Hardly. Losing probes? You can chrono boost your nexus to build tons more. Losing scvs? you got mules. Conclusion, its not as big as an advantage as it was in BW. In sc2 this advantage is almost non-existant. Fast zerg production has been almost equalized with warp gates, reactors, and chrono boosts. Zerg constantly plays from behind. Its z builds up a pre-lair army to keep them alive early game, that will become easily melted once P/T get their tech out. So, Z must scout the tech path, and tech accordingly, all while continuing to macro and produce units in case of a surprise attack. As your teching to hive/den/GS you just hope that you are able to get ur ultras/Broodlords before he decides to push with terran mech for example, but if the terran is smart they wont give you that much time. Once you get your tech out you hope to god its enough to keep you alive and win the battle. Oh, guess what, what if your teching broodlords and an observer rolls and sees the spire? What if a terran scans? They just build the appropriate counter to whatever your getting that your hoping will keep you alive. In the big battle you roll in with ur broodlords and you encounter a ton of blink stalkers or a ton of vikings and ur gg. Zerg gets countered every step of the way. Its not liek BW where there were no LOLCOLOSSI that will just A-move roflstomp your whole army in small numbers. in bw it was more strategic, it was about micro, it was about outthinking your opponent. And people who keep saying OH BUT ZERG PLAY WILL EVOLVE. Well, no, it wont. Not unless things get patched to let that happen. Z only has a handful of units, and trust me, people have tried many combinations of Z units and buildings. Z just does not have the tools to be equal in the current state of the game. You may not agree, but its true, and many people agree. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On July 23 2010 07:14 hyouro wrote: Excuse me deckkie, how can you make conclusions like that when you don't even know the basics of a Zerg? You guys are totally right. I shouldnt assume stuff without knowing. I am sorry for the inconvenience. Guess the first thing for me when the game comes out, wont be playing single player, but training my Zerg. | ||
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