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On July 22 2010 11:24 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:19 me_viet wrote:On July 22 2010 11:08 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 22 2010 10:44 Heaven. wrote:
North America is a bunch of complainer who rant over how underpowered Zerg is and Terran mech is imba
I'm a Zerg player and I win many match ups fine, fair and dandy
In Korea Terran is considered the weakest and Zerg is considered the strongest This isn't true, terran is #1 , zerg a close second and protoss a distant third on asia. unlike US were terran and protoss are close and zerg is a distant third. Source please? I actually remmebr day9 talking about this in one of his cast where he said that zerg is much stronger in asia. But wether that's because Zerg is actually stronger in Asia or Terran and Protoss are weaker than US remains to be seen. BUT he DID state that zerg is stronger in asia compared to the T/P there. I'm pretty sure it was in one of the earlier Day9 beta dailes (proably around patch 3/4), because I also remember listening to one of the State of the Beta podcasts where Artosis was venting about Terran mech vs Z, saying that most Zs on Asia were changing to T. Of course, that was right at the end of phase one, so it's still outdated news.
Maybe Zerg was stronger in Asia two months ago when it was still on patch 9. But the game has developed since then.
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It might not be completely broken, but it is very boring.
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On July 22 2010 10:58 waffling1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:40 Thenas wrote:On July 22 2010 10:19 waffling1 wrote:
i think the spine crawler + queen +creep expansion push has not been explored much.
spine are mobile, and are pretty much meant to be used offensively as well. on top of being able to heal them, and being mobile, i think the spine crawler is pretty much the extra zerg unit.
in a game, if players are diligent about creep expansion they can expand it up to the base, plant sunkens, and basically have healable, durable seige tanks (less range than tanks of course, but still).
In straight up unit to unit confrontations, i tseems zerg are usually at a disadvantage against any P ball with colossi or T ball with tanks or splash. of course zerg is pretty much required to flank, but throwing spines into the mix can add a bit of forcing the other race to back off before 12 seconds, as you push and gain ground.
Think about it, 150 minerals for a healable, durable spine crawler will just do a whole lot more than 6 lings. (ling of course will be all about mobility, which is its own niche).
it would seem that the spine crawler can pretty much be used as a medium seige tank.
also, baneling drops to the econ line. comon. So basicly what you are saying is that we got a siege tank with less range (1 vs 13), less than half of the movement speed, no splash damage, three times as long siege/root time and it requires creep in order to even work not only this but it drasticly hinders your movement speed across the map. Tell me again how this is viable since it requires your larva to be used for this cos I sure can't see it. Oh and it has almost double the attack speed of the tank but I can't see that making up for anything. Because of the above it's to abusable with drops / warpins from P and T just runns over it no problem. So basicly this is like a double edged sword only the edge which faces your opponent is dull, coated with a thick wooly fabric. can't say anything about baneling drops kinda hard to pull of unless you do it as a battle takes place elsewhere. i didn't mean that the spine is actually a seige tank. they are definitely not comparable by any means, but a lot of its mechanics and behavior ends up being so. all i'm saying is that blizzard gave mobility to the zerg defensive structures. it's not being used offensively when it totally can be. plus, a sunken is way more potent than 6 lings later on in the game in various respects. the spine can also bolster the fragility of the zerg ball compared to other balls. a sort of creeping forward and containing with spines can even be experimented with similar to lurkers (of course there is a huge difference with a 12 second burrow time). say u make a lot of spines for defense. the unique thing about zerg is that they can uproot them, and use them as offense, provided you're diligent about creep. T and P cannot do this. The simple fact that it can be done means it should at least be explored. There was a game KotB where Idra in game 2 against HuK moved 4 spines spread out to the center of the map on stepps, was able to hold the center much better. he didn't move his spines in range of poking at the wallin, but hey, it's more than leaving the spines back at the base. i think a lot of underutilizing offensive spines has to do with the spillover from BW mentality. despite not being as long ranged as a tank or colossus, the spine is still the longest ranged ground unit in the zerg arsenal. if u can manage to entrench yourself in a contain, why not poke away at the toss wallin before the period colossi come out? force the issue on the Toss with queens transfusing them as well.
Ok so I think what you are getting at a little bit more, I can sort of see them really useful if the opponent doesn't have air and you place them behind the tall grass, that way tumors that are infront of the grass give vision 2 them. however with the root time being 12 secs and them only having a speed of 1 I can't really see them used in any pushes except as sacrificial lambs allowing your army to retreat.
It still feels like it severly limits the speed at which you can move around tho.
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On July 22 2010 10:19 waffling1 wrote:
i think the spine crawler + queen +creep expansion push has not been explored much.
spine are mobile, and are pretty much meant to be used offensively as well. on top of being able to heal them, and being mobile, i think the spine crawler is pretty much the extra zerg unit.
in a game, if players are diligent about creep expansion they can expand it up to the base, plant sunkens, and basically have healable, durable seige tanks (less range than tanks of course, but still).
In straight up unit to unit confrontations, i tseems zerg are usually at a disadvantage against any P ball with colossi or T ball with tanks or splash. of course zerg is pretty much required to flank, but throwing spines into the mix can add a bit of forcing the other race to back off before 12 seconds, as you push and gain ground.
Think about it, 150 minerals for a healable, durable spine crawler will just do a whole lot more than 6 lings. (ling of course will be all about mobility, which is its own niche).
it would seem that the spine crawler can pretty much be used as a medium seige tank.
also, baneling drops to the econ line. comon.
Wrong. Spine crawler mobility has been nerfed, because Blizzard has specifically said they do not see it as an offensive unit. They are meant to be base defenses, and the movement is mainly for moving them from one base to another, or reposition them into choke points.
Hitting an enemy base with spine crawlers is very rarely useful, if at all.
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On July 22 2010 11:11 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 08:47 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 22 2010 07:54 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
@Fabled, Did you watch Sheth vs Huk? He had Creep at Huk's door on big maps like Lost Temple and Metalopolis in the early game and used that to do aggressive Hydra attacks. To aggressively spread creep you need more than just creep tumours he was using overlords to help them spread faster by having patches of creep for the creep tumour to target by the time the cooldown was ready.
Also Fungal Growth > Dropships so kind of, warp-ins are powerful but usually early on the zerg has a free reign of the map so if they're aggressively hunting down pylons they can't really. Nydus networks have been brought up in the past but usually by people like Avilo who say that you need to make multiple networks and build 10 worms at the same time. Putting one worm in each base and having an infestor ready to fungal growth to delay the army so that you can get your army out to defend is an extremely potent strategy. Yes some of these points have been brought up before but it doesnt change the fact that even the top zergs havent fully utilized all of the race's mechanics.
I watched it, but I don't remember, I'll have to take a look, but I wouldn't personally say lair tech is early game, nor are hydras. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding is. Personally I feel there is vast amounts of potential in having mass dropships that enable you to drop an entire army in a Zerg main, snipe a hive and some critical tech buildings, and fight the units that are reinforcing into you. Recall that when you do so, you'll have a major positioning advantage when Zerg rushes back to the base, as buildings will be in the way and lings will arrive much faster (and in a line) to your troops, making him have to wait all the way for the other Roaches/Hydras. Merely the threat of a doom drop from Terran is in itself giving the Terran tons of potential (similar to how merely the potential of DT in SC1 forced Terrans to get early turrets). Then you have all your dropships to heal your stimmed units that are taking down the buildings, etc. Concerning Nyduses, the units come out really slowly, and I doubt with the speed of Terran units that your entire Nydus at multiple bases would be viable, but who knows. We can see with nydus canals in SC1 that usually you don't even have enough army out in time, and the units through the canals come out a million times faster, and you could utilize Dark Swarm and lurkers in small numbers to delay for much more time (fungal... not so much I feel, but I have definitely used it to delay army movement before like you suggest and buy time). I just have a massive problem with the maxed army Zerg, I've had numerous games where I've sat at 200/200 vs a 2 base toss, with tons of minerals to spare, and lost the game. My most recent game I can recall was a game where I gained a massive early base advantage, had 5 base vs 2 base, 200/200 and 5k minerals and 2k gas in the bank. Stupidly, I didn't get an ultra cavern vs the Toss, but instead stuck with Ling/Roach/Hydra (and outupgrading him). As he moved out to secure his third, I burrowed my roaches and popped out on top of his army, and moved in wiht hydra support, but he demolished them. I had around ~35-40 larvae saved up, and instantly started reinforcing. However, his ball was able to come in and power through all my separated weak reinforcements, and he reinforced his ball with warp gate units before mine even hatched. I got annihilated. Imo, that's just broken. Even if I could have won with Ultralisks (I'm near positive if i just built an ultra cavern and like 10 ultras I could have cleaved with 5 armor through his mass stalker/sentry/colossus ball). But I shouldn't be forced to use them to have even a remote chance at fighting his army of tier 1. It's moments like that where I just think Zerg is broken lategame, and it's just as bad if not worse vs Terran. Lol you mentioned having to fight stalker/sentry/collosus, they're tier 1.5 and 3 respectively... you onli fought with ling roach and hydras which are tier 1 tier 1.5 and tier 2... of course you need to have something match his collusus. Your army was outclassed and i can say with my modest knowledge; hard countered. collosus > hydras w(with +2 collosus destroy lings) collosus + stalkers > hydras/roach collosus + stalkers > hydras/roach/lings (forcefield funnels your short range and melee units) And yes, ultra's would've won you the battle. They would break through force field and allow you a better surround with lings and roaches. It's your fault you did not build that cavern
Forgot to include I had infestors too - anywho.
Point is - doesn't mean his army should shit all over yours. Roach/Hydra are both staple units in the Zerg arsenal. Not by any means saying they should win, but when they don't make a dent, there is a problem.
His army also wasn't maxed, he was severely outplayed early game, I believe he two gated vs my 15 hatch (cross positions) and his zealots didn't do anything (he mismicroed his first zealot, I killed it with my first 6 lings, didn't lose any lings, and then proceeded to kill like another 4 zealots with lings and then took a third before he took his second).
If you throw 200/200 at something like 150/200, the smaller tier should win. Nonetheless, that's not 6the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is the "attack in multiple waves" is retarded. I couldn't reinforce my army before his army just rolled over mine.
Zerg was fundamentally "throw a lot of shit at the enemy, outexpand him, etc." It's not like that all anymore, and doesn't feel zergy, and the entire "oh it feels swarmy when you come in with a second wave ASAP" is not only a retarded concept, but it's incredibly situational. I simply hate the lategame system, but I enjoy the early-midgame.
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On July 22 2010 11:37 Saracen wrote:To everyone saying "stop whining, Asian Zergs are dominating," you're wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136770¤tpage=5#96The last time we got any statistics to back up the claim that Asian Zergs were "dominating" was well over a month ago. Plus, I'm willing to bet that none of you who make these claims play on the Asia server. Also, compare the top Korean Zergs to the top Korean Terrans and Protosses. For Zergs, we have what, Cool and Check? Maybe Zenio? Terran: IntoTheRainbow, TheStc (who just beat Cool in the most recent Korean online tournament), Ensane, Maka, Hannibal. And for Protoss you have Tester, enough said. So how are Asian Zergs "dominating?"
I'm a Zerg player, and that link in your post is becoming my sig. It's just amazing how many people are still echoing what Dustin Browder said in a video interview like 3 months ago.
Zerg is not dominating in South Korea.
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i agree about the tech swapping up until u mention ZvT simply because no matter what i go if he has thors its kinda meh. overall i feel in the mid game they are the weakest of the 3 races simply because u cant have all that tech and still be alive so u have to stick with 1 and hold off your opponent until new tech kicks in or you kill him with ur first tech choice
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There really weren't any big tournaments in phase 2, but definitely Zerg was dominating in tournaments at the very end of phase 1 in Asia. The last ASM, done right before the end of phase 1, had
1. Zerg
2. Zerg
3. Zerg
4. Zerg
5-8: Zerg, Zerg, Protoss, Zerg
The biggest tournament in phase 2 I guess was the WTA, which had 1. Terran, 2. Zerg, 3. Zerg, 4. Terran for its top 4.
It's tough to say Zerg is still dominating in Asia, since we really didn't get enough time with phase 2 (not even two weeks). But definitely there's no real reason to think that Zerg's domination in Asia has stopped, either.
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On July 22 2010 11:37 Saracen wrote:To everyone saying "stop whining, Asian Zergs are dominating," you're wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136770¤tpage=5#96The last time we got any statistics to back up the claim that Asian Zergs were "dominating" was well over a month ago. Plus, I'm willing to bet that none of you who make these claims play on the Asia server. Also, compare the top Korean Zergs to the top Korean Terrans and Protosses. For Zergs, we have what, Cool and Check? Maybe Zenio? Terran: IntoTheRainbow, TheStc (who just beat Cool in the most recent Korean online tournament), Ensane, Maka, Hannibal. And for Protoss you have Tester, enough said. So how are Asian Zergs "dominating?"
Not that this was addressed to me, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying if zerg is under-powered then stop playing it and tell Blizzard why you're stopping. No one is forcing anyone to play a race with which they think they can't win.
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On July 22 2010 12:17 cucumber wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 11:37 Saracen wrote:To everyone saying "stop whining, Asian Zergs are dominating," you're wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136770¤tpage=5#96The last time we got any statistics to back up the claim that Asian Zergs were "dominating" was well over a month ago. Plus, I'm willing to bet that none of you who make these claims play on the Asia server. Also, compare the top Korean Zergs to the top Korean Terrans and Protosses. For Zergs, we have what, Cool and Check? Maybe Zenio? Terran: IntoTheRainbow, TheStc (who just beat Cool in the most recent Korean online tournament), Ensane, Maka, Hannibal. And for Protoss you have Tester, enough said. So how are Asian Zergs "dominating?" Not that this was addressed to me, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying if zerg is under-powered then stop playing it and tell Blizzard why you're stopping. No one is forcing anyone to play a race with which they think they can't win.
Nice solution, why didn't I think of that.
Zerg players just stop playing zerg!
/facepalm
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Azile, I'm going to explain this to you like baby-food, since that's apparently what you need. If you're playing competitively don't play to whine; play to win.
1) If zerg can't compete
2) then zerg won't
3) people will notice
4) Blizzard will compensate and make zerg better
Understand? GREAT!!!
All I'm otherwise saying is that pro gamers should pick races and strategies that allow them to win and they don't get to whine about their race when they lose. Because they themselves picked it. If you're a competitive gamer, then don't play zerg if you think it's not the best to win. If you pick it and you don't think it's the best to win and then you whine whine whine? Then f you. Pick the race that lets you win.
If, on the other hand, you want to play SC2 for fun, and you want to play zerg, and you think zerg needs more diversity or more/different stuff to be the 'swarm' then by all means tell us and Blizzard and everyone to make the changes happen.
Just don't play pro and tell me you're a martyr. Because that means you're a tool.
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On July 22 2010 12:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
If you throw 200/200 at something like 150/200, the smaller tier should win. Nonetheless, that's not 6the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is the "attack in multiple waves" is retarded. I couldn't reinforce my army before his army just rolled over mine.
Zerg was fundamentally "throw a lot of shit at the enemy, outexpand him, etc." It's not like that all anymore, and doesn't feel zergy, and the entire "oh it feels swarmy when you come in with a second wave ASAP" is not only a retarded concept, but it's incredibly situational. I simply hate the lategame system, but I enjoy the early-midgame.
You said you had more bases how many more drones did you have? I am going to guess that your actual army sizes werent so different and you said yourself you refused to build your tier three units or even get some corrupters whereas he had invested in higher tier units.
How many warp gates did he have ten maybe? Thats what about ten reinforcements compared to your 45 saved up larvae?
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On July 22 2010 12:23 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 12:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
If you throw 200/200 at something like 150/200, the smaller tier should win. Nonetheless, that's not 6the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is the "attack in multiple waves" is retarded. I couldn't reinforce my army before his army just rolled over mine.
Zerg was fundamentally "throw a lot of shit at the enemy, outexpand him, etc." It's not like that all anymore, and doesn't feel zergy, and the entire "oh it feels swarmy when you come in with a second wave ASAP" is not only a retarded concept, but it's incredibly situational. I simply hate the lategame system, but I enjoy the early-midgame. You said you had more bases how many more drones did you have? I am going to guess that your actual army sizes werent so different and you said yourself you refused to build your tier three units or even get some corrupters whereas he had invested in higher tier units. How many warp gates did he have ten maybe? Thats what about ten reinforcements compared to your 45 saved up larvae?
If I could have managed to have all 45 larvae spawn units in the same area, I probably could have held it off with a second and third wave. Unfortunately, he just raped my bases 1 by 1 and I couldn't actually group up an army, that was the problem. Immediately after raping me in the middle of LT, he immediately went to my gold, which had 5 spines defending, ran over them and moved into my nat. Admittedly a few units died due to my previous rallies, but it was my inability to recoup my army like they say you should. I've lost many games due to this.
As I've said, I definitely screwed up with not having corrupters or ultras. BUT the point is, I feel people aren't giving enough credit to what a fully maxed ling/roach/hydra army *should* accomplish. It should do *something*.
PS. If he had 10 warpgates that's probably 2 waves of reinforcements by the time my first one comes through (especially if he chronos), which is a 40 supply reinforcement... lol. And his units all spawn in the same area T_T.
Don't remember what my drone count was but none of my bases were fully saturated, I just transferred drones from my first 3 bases to my later two. Still probably a lot, however. Even with a full 20 less drones though, that's only 10 more units.
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raelcun your awesome man, but you how people are, mostly from north american region, cry instead of trying to find ways to make things work. keep fightin bruh. i have to say when i played on asia server zerg is like a different race, those dudes know they're starcraft!
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On July 22 2010 10:44 Heaven. wrote:
North America is a bunch of complainer who rant over how underpowered Zerg is and Terran mech is imba
I'm a Zerg player and I win many match ups fine, fair and dandy
In Korea Terran is considered the weakest and Zerg is considered the strongest
Flat out lie. Don't post something you don't know anything about. the race split up (top 50) on the asia server is
19: T
16: P
13: Z
2: R
While I win a fair amount of ZvP I feel that I have to out play my Terran opponent heavily to win. You pretty much need to harass heavily with zerglings, open mutas to make them turtle more then take 3-4 bases to their 1-2 plus out playing heavily in major battles, scout all of their tech and defend their harass.
Furthermore when you have Pro players calling imba while other pros are refusing to use the terminology but still acknowledge that things need to be tweeked it's easy to see that something is astray. Sure eventually the meta will change and that will change the dynamic of the MU but their has to be a real strategy from Z to make the T change anything about their play (Harass is the only thing I can think of).
The thing that I would like to see is making one of Z's units 1 food again (like hydra was in sc:bw or roach was pre patch 13) but make sure it doesn't affect the ZvP MU too much (ZvZ is still growing quite a bit, but baneling play is annoying).
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
On July 22 2010 13:03 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:44 Heaven. wrote:
North America is a bunch of complainer who rant over how underpowered Zerg is and Terran mech is imba
I'm a Zerg player and I win many match ups fine, fair and dandy
In Korea Terran is considered the weakest and Zerg is considered the strongest Flat out lie. Don't post something you don't know anything about. the race split up (top 50) on the asia server is 19: T
16: P
13: Z
2: RWhile I win a fair amount of ZvP I feel that I have to out play my Terran opponent heavily to win. You pretty much need to harass heavily with zerglings, open mutas to make them turtle more then take 3-4 bases to their 1-2 plus out playing heavily in major battles, scout all of their tech and defend their harass. Furthermore when you have Pro players calling imba while other pros are refusing to use the terminology but still acknowledge that things need to be tweeked it's easy to see that something is astray. Sure eventually the meta will change and that will change the dynamic of the MU but their has to be a real strategy from Z to make the T change anything about their play (Harass is the only thing I can think of). The thing that I would like to see is making one of Z's units 1 food again (like hydra was in sc:bw or roach was pre patch 13) but make sure it doesn't affect the ZvP MU too much (ZvZ is still growing quite a bit, but baneling play is annoying).
Just wanted to point out it is:
15 T
21 P
13 Z
1 R
In Asia.
credit to: http://sc2.vacau.com/sc2/krranks.php
edit: also from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136770¤tpage=5#96
On July 19 2010 09:28 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Thanks for the link, jokah, and thanks to martinni for updating the list. Of the 3635 players in asia diamond division 1v1. - 1244 are protoss
- 1187 are terran
- 750 are zerg
- 454 are random
So - 34.22% are protoss
- 32.65% are terran
- 20.63% are zerg
and
- 12.49% are random
Observations: - The number of zerg is less than what we've all been told. Perhaps next time everyone (myself included) will try not to fall prey to rumors anymore.
- Used source data, word, and replace tool to find the number of players in each category
- Don't go about posting definite conclusions to this information, we don't know very much yet
- I don't know if martinni has updated his list of asian players in diamond division completely.
20.63% diamond player pool zerg and 13 of them in top 50. Yes, terran and protoss have more in top 50 but 12%+ more players.
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On July 22 2010 13:14 Corinthos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 13:03 ixi.genocide wrote:On July 22 2010 10:44 Heaven. wrote:
North America is a bunch of complainer who rant over how underpowered Zerg is and Terran mech is imba
I'm a Zerg player and I win many match ups fine, fair and dandy
In Korea Terran is considered the weakest and Zerg is considered the strongest Flat out lie. Don't post something you don't know anything about. the race split up (top 50) on the asia server is 19: T
16: P
13: Z
2: RWhile I win a fair amount of ZvP I feel that I have to out play my Terran opponent heavily to win. You pretty much need to harass heavily with zerglings, open mutas to make them turtle more then take 3-4 bases to their 1-2 plus out playing heavily in major battles, scout all of their tech and defend their harass. Furthermore when you have Pro players calling imba while other pros are refusing to use the terminology but still acknowledge that things need to be tweeked it's easy to see that something is astray. Sure eventually the meta will change and that will change the dynamic of the MU but their has to be a real strategy from Z to make the T change anything about their play (Harass is the only thing I can think of). The thing that I would like to see is making one of Z's units 1 food again (like hydra was in sc:bw or roach was pre patch 13) but make sure it doesn't affect the ZvP MU too much (ZvZ is still growing quite a bit, but baneling play is annoying). Just wanted to point out it is: 15 T 21 P 13 Z 1 R In Asia. credit to: http://sc2.vacau.com/sc2/krranks.php
Odd how they are so clustered. Top 5 has 4/5 Terran + 1 Toss. But top 20 starts to incorporate a lot more Zerg (8/20). Then the next 15 (21 - 35) are 13 Protoss 1 Terran 1 Random.
Weirddd. So looks like Terran are at the VERY top, then Zerg after the Top 10, then Mass protoss around 20 onward.
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On July 22 2010 13:03 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 10:44 Heaven. wrote:
North America is a bunch of complainer who rant over how underpowered Zerg is and Terran mech is imba
I'm a Zerg player and I win many match ups fine, fair and dandy
In Korea Terran is considered the weakest and Zerg is considered the strongest Flat out lie. Don't post something you don't know anything about. the race split up (top 50) on the asia server is 19: T 16: P 13: Z 2: R While I win a fair amount of ZvP I feel that I have to out play my Terran opponent heavily to win. You pretty much need to harass heavily with zerglings, open mutas to make them turtle more then take 3-4 bases to their 1-2 plus out playing heavily in major battles, scout all of their tech and defend their harass. Furthermore when you have Pro players calling imba while other pros are refusing to use the terminology but still acknowledge that things need to be tweeked it's easy to see that something is astray. Sure eventually the meta will change and that will change the dynamic of the MU but their has to be a real strategy from Z to make the T change anything about their play (Harass is the only thing I can think of). The thing that I would like to see is making one of Z's units 1 food again (like hydra was in sc:bw or roach was pre patch 13) but make sure it doesn't affect the ZvP MU too much (ZvZ is still growing quite a bit, but baneling play is annoying).
I get you, i really do because you honestly have to outplay them by using zerg's potential. Mech has limited play as its slow and clunky, it's depressing facing it but I KNOW that we have options to explore they are just harder to implement! Zerg is not underpowered it's just harder to play and to lesser skilled players it would seem otherwise because they will never reach that potential. Those who argue otherwise see what I see, what can be done if you eek out just a bit more here and there and voila you can beat mech and it goes downhill.
It's a plateau effect once you've beaten mech soundly you can emulate that same procedure in every game because Terrans feel comfortable playing the same playstyle.
Blizzard has to collect insurmountable amount of data to make a game feel balance on all levels, every month this game will be out meta games will change peoples thought patterns and skills will develop. The entire multiplayer will be a sentient being due to that and you need to understand that what seems obvious from your perspective is COMPLETELY different from another.
For example, I change my game up and manage to beat 10 meching terrans in a row because I can extort a weakness. However a fellow Zerg has just lost 10 games against the same meching terrans because he continues to follow the standard meta game for zerg. You will have 3 separate opinions that swear they are correct
1. Zerg can beat mech all the time
2. Mech is OP Zerg has no hope
3. Mech is fine I win about 50% of the time
You swiftly go to the nearest forum and complain with a reasonable explanation as to why its unbalanced/balanced with replays to prove it! YOU FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THIS BECAUSE OF YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
Hope this helps
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On July 22 2010 12:22 cucumber wrote:
Azile, I'm going to explain this to you like baby-food, since that's apparently what you need. If you're playing competitively don't play to whine; play to win.
1) If zerg can't compete
2) then zerg won't
3) people will notice
4) Blizzard will compensate and make zerg better
Understand? GREAT!!!
All I'm otherwise saying is that pro gamers should pick races and strategies that allow them to win and they don't get to whine about their race when they lose. Because they themselves picked it. If you're a competitive gamer, then don't play zerg if you think it's not the best to win. If you pick it and you don't think it's the best to win and then you whine whine whine? Then f you. Pick the race that lets you win.
If, on the other hand, you want to play SC2 for fun, and you want to play zerg, and you think zerg needs more diversity or more/different stuff to be the 'swarm' then by all means tell us and Blizzard and everyone to make the changes happen.
Just don't play pro and tell me you're a martyr. Because that means you're a tool.
That would be assuming anyone else joins in your boycotting zerg. Furthermore you conveniently neglected the previous post that countered yours and that is it takes a LONG time to fully master another race. You SHOULD be better off practicing zerg until you can play it blindfolded because the races should be equal. If your solution is to switch to Terran because zerg is UP then instead of switching to terran you should work on proposing the correct buff that the zerg would need.
TBH I haven't and won't call IMBA on anything in SC2. The game hasn't even come out yet and blizz did a great job making sc:bw balanced, I don't think they will leave this hanging. I will say that the ZvT is disproportionately difficult and the zerg unit composition is lacking a 1f proficient unit (ie Hydra sc:bw)
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On July 22 2010 12:22 cucumber wrote:
Azile, I'm going to explain this to you like baby-food, since that's apparently what you need. If you're playing competitively don't play to whine; play to win.
1) If zerg can't compete
2) then zerg won't
3) people will notice
4) Blizzard will compensate and make zerg better
Understand? GREAT!!!
All I'm otherwise saying is that pro gamers should pick races and strategies that allow them to win and they don't get to whine about their race when they lose. Because they themselves picked it. If you're a competitive gamer, then don't play zerg if you think it's not the best to win. If you pick it and you don't think it's the best to win and then you whine whine whine? Then f you. Pick the race that lets you win.
If, on the other hand, you want to play SC2 for fun, and you want to play zerg, and you think zerg needs more diversity or more/different stuff to be the 'swarm' then by all means tell us and Blizzard and everyone to make the changes happen.
Just don't play pro and tell me you're a martyr. Because that means you're a tool.
Dude, just stop it. Your arguments are, for lack of a better word, stupid.
No "competitive gamer" will switch races on a whim. It's like telling a defender in soccer to start playing as an attacker because "if there's no glory in defending, stop whiniing and pick what gets you the glory".
You do not simply learn how to play a new race in 1 day, just like you do not switch position/role in football or basketball because your current one isn't the "best" or "easiest" one. You hang in there trying to find new ways to improve. Perhaps, after extensive discussions and debates within your sport, rule changes emerge to promote fair and better play (like referee's cracking down on holdings or whatever fouls).
Now stop spewing your irrelevant off topic bullshit over this thread. Asking competitive zerg players to switch races is not something that furthers constructive discussion. Only possible prospect the type of posts you write have got are starting flame wars.
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