EPTOn July 22 2010 07:27 crappyleft wrote:
And saying "Zerg is good" isn't an exaggeration? please...
And saying "Zerg is good" isn't an exaggeration? please...
nope, its not an exaggeration
Why Zerg is Good - Page 2
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
nope, its not an exaggeration | ||
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FC.Strike
United States621 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:27 crappyleft wrote: And saying "Zerg is good" isn't an exaggeration? please... Zerg is good Terran is good Protoss is good It's all good. I think SC2 is a pretty good game all around right now. Could it be better? Sure! But we'll probably have to wait for the expansions for that to happen. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:22 Dance.jhu wrote: Just for arguments sake: How would you respond if I said, zerg creativity and strength demand so much more focus and apm then the other two races, which is why zerg would appear weaker. Also "tech switching" isn't a major strength in the late game imo. Protoss have warpgates to handle whatever you are trying to switch to, and terran have more than adequate ways to counter any threat from bio-mech. Plus, anyone who knows how to scout easily negates "tech switches" So? Wow it requires focus and APM thats good for a competitive game to have a high skill cap. Sorry but easy to counter that argument. And you underestimate the power of a solid tech switch, being around some of the best players because of my position in Root Gaming and my role as a caster in iCCup TV a devastating tech switch can really demolish people. Zerg has such a great capability to play mind games by combining their ability to switch compositions with their quick unit production. Go into an engagement trade even or even come out slightly worse and then have a completely DIFFERENT army on them immediately. Players don't know how to react to that and frequently will make mistakes. Also early game sauron zerg strategies are still possible with roaches even at 2 food just because when larva spit is utilized correctly and you get your creep spread you're able to keep roaches in their face aggressively while expanding... it's disgusting how powerful Zerg can be when a player makes no mistakes. On July 22 2010 07:27 crappyleft wrote: And saying "Zerg is good" isn't an exaggeration? please... Notice I didnt say zerg is great, zerg is OP, zerg is the best. I said zerg is good. Zerg can stay in there with the other races and win just like the other two and people need to stop saying Zerg is underpowered, because really it isn't. | ||
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Pocketpurple
United States80 Posts
Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest: * Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up) * Transfusion strategies * Contamination * Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively I disagree on larva injection not being used to the fullest. and if you are constantly doing your larva injections you cannot do any transfusion strategies unless you get many queens. Contamination imo is good but overrated but i definitely agree with the nydus network point. I don't think zerg is underpowered at all but i do think it is the hardest race to play. | ||
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pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:32 pieisamazing wrote: You're right. Zerg isn't underpowered. What they are is boring. Then don't play Zerg plenty of people find it fun, others find Protoss warp-ins boring it's called personal taste that shouldn't effect people's thoughts on balance changes. IE Zerg shouldnt be changed just because some people think they're boring when plenty of others find them fun as hell. | ||
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Moozeo
United Kingdom10 Posts
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pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
Zerg, however, is not. This is to say nothing of balance. They just seem so bland in a way that the other two races are not. | ||
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Dance.jhu
United States292 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:30 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: So? Wow it requires focus and APM thats good for a competitive game to have a high skill cap. Sorry but easy to counter that argument. And you underestimate the power of a solid tech switch, being around some of the best players because of my position in Root Gaming and my role as a caster in iCCup TV a devastating tech switch can really demolish people. Zerg has such a great capability to play mind games by combining their ability to switch compositions with their quick unit production. Go into an engagement trade even or even come out slightly worse and then have a completely DIFFERENT army on them immediately. Players don't know how to react to that and frequently will make mistakes. Also early game sauron zerg strategies are still possible with roaches even at 2 food just because when larva spit is utilized correctly and you get your creep spread you're able to keep roaches in their face aggressively while expanding... it's disgusting how powerful Zerg can be when a player makes no mistakes. I agree completely, just I was just suggesting that maybe in order for zerg to stay competitive, it demands so much more focus and apm than the other two races. I'm not trying to say that it shouldn't require it. Also, I more talking about the midlevel of diamond rather than the very top players of the ladder. So please consider players that do make mistakes. Also, I added some things to my post, I was hoping i could get your opinion on that as well. I dont think zerg is underpowered at all, just maybe it demands more. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:35 Moozeo wrote: iCCup.Raelcun, I think it would be easier if we went into more specific examples. Did you watch Game 2 of IdrA & Tester? What do you think he could of done differently? Make a God Damn Spire, he did it fine against Huk, but against Tester he just kept making Hydras la da da dee da into the lategame where you really need to have a spire just to cover your ass in case your opponent is going to switch to colossus on you. Plus it allows you to quick switch to broodlords off hive tech as well, Idra simply fell into the macro more roach/hydra trap and Tester smashed him because of it. | ||
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Pocketpurple
United States80 Posts
The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, I'm sorry but terran and protoss air dominates zerg air. and Unit Production Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary. Protoss can recreate a heavy army VERY FAST, maybe not as fast as a zerg with constant larva injections, but veryyyyy fast with chrono'd warpgates. | ||
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Greedie
Sweden6 Posts
I feel like, as we get further into the game, the zerg race will seem to improve as players APM and control increase. Else I'd just like to say I think it's about time we see one of these threads cause quite frankly, the 400 different "zerg is so weak" threads were getting pretty annoying. Hopefully this helps open a few eyes that just go into "Zerg-is-so-weak" mode b/c of some whiny pros  | ||
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
Mobility? How much more mobile can you get then warp in tech? Also a bio ball can be quite mobile as well especially with a medic + transport combo. Sure, zerg can produce more units at the same time if you have the apm to sustain constant larvae inject, but I would hope so as our units are much weaker than protoss'. Think about mass killing units like colossus and HT. They cant wipe out an army incredibly quickly. Also, terran bio can have a new ball up incredibly quickly as well. Warp-in tech is reliant on pylons, if a zerg can hunt down your pylons with overlords placed in effective places then the mobility from warp-ins are severely limited. Colossus have their counters and so do HT, terran bio ball can be easily dealt with by zerg and most zergs would rather see a bio ball over a mech ball because a bio ball is easier to deal with. Bio ball gets chain fungal growthed until medivacs are out of energy and they're all low health and then zerg just streams units in to roll them over. @ Pocketpurple If a protoss is staying on just warpgate tech and not adding in anything else then they will lose so early game warp ins are almost as good as larva inject but not in the lategame where they have to rely on other units like colossus immortals and possibly stargate units as well. The unique part of the zerg mechanics is they stay true through the entire game. | ||
DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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Pocketpurple
United States80 Posts
@ Pocketpurple If a zerg is staying on just warpgate tech and not adding in anything else then they will lose so early game warp ins are almost as good as larva inject but not in the lategame where they have to rely on other units like colossus immortals and possibly stargate units as well. The unique part of the zerg mechanics is they stay true through the entire game. good point. I agree with this topic that zerg is good. and i think this game is amazingly well balanced considering it isn't even out yet. However, i do find that ZvT is a very hard matchup for zerg, not imba but very hard to win for zerg. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Okay so I can't count how many QQ threads I've seen on Zerg being underpowered how it's uncreative it needs changes blah blah blah. Well I play zerg and I'm constantly around some of the best zergs around and generally I tend to disagree and I'm about to explain why. Tech Switches Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time. This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units. Mobility The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game. Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye. Fungal Growth used effectively can stop the mobility of their opponents completely. Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game with the exeption of the use of mass recall by protoss but that has limited uses when compared to a good nydus network setup. Unit Production Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary. Conclusion Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest:
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration. 1. Tech switches - nothing new really. Yes it's an advantage of the Zerg race, everyone is aware of it. My point is that by stating this, it's not an argument that anyone could have been missing in the entire balance debate thus far. 2. Mobility - Zerg is not very mobile at all, at least compared to it's BW counterpart. Creep tumors have been nerfed at the rate it can expand creep, and unless you are going to forgo multiple spawn larvaes, there is no such thing as the "aggressive early game creep expansion that lets Zerg dominate the early game." Fungal growth can stop an enemy in it's tracks yes, but Terran now has the ability to transport it's entire army into your base via dropship (a tactic I find highly underused) to bypass defenses. Risky, yes, but they nonetheless have the transportation power (think of TvT BW where most of the armies are inside the dropships and you can doom drop... very powerful ability, especially with high DPS stimmed bio armies). Toss can warp to anywhere on the map, and fast stalkers with blink which make up a strong core of any toss army heavily counteract this supposed Zerg mobility. Off creep, the Protoss army is just as fast if not faster than the Zerg army. 3. Unit Production - Protoss can reinforce the battle much faster than the Zerg, it's just Zerg can do more at once. Protoss instantly warps in another 8 units MIDBATTLE which if you barely held off his push, the reinforcements are going to hurt. By the time your units hatch, he'll have 16 units knocking on your doorstep pounding away, while your army is scattered. Yes, it's true overall that Zerg can remax the fastest, but that means a lot less when your units are a lot weaker. The only valid point I really see (personally) is the potential of nydus networks... which has already been advocated by people plenty of times :-/. | ||
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SoLaR[i.C]
United States2969 Posts
As a terran player, there's nothing worse than pumping mauraders and tanks to deal with a sizable force of roaches, and then having to frantically train anti-air when 8 mutalisks start killing scvs at your backside only a minute or two later. | ||
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Sephy90
United States1785 Posts
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Dance.jhu
United States292 Posts
I think zerg is very strong and I'm going to continue to have that race as my main. I was thinking about why people consider zerg underpowered and why they think zerg lack variety. I think it is because all the advantages stated in the OP seems to take a lot of apm. I mean, creep tumors and larvae inject are incredibly hard to keep track of. The vast majority of players on TL are not at the top level so its hard to utilize it to its full effect. Which translates into a weaker race, and hence the bitching and moaning. I know that when I'm on top of my game with creep spreading and larvae inject, I can easily out expand my opponent and make him afraid to move out. It makes me smile that I play Zerg. | ||
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