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Why Zerg is Good - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Bibbit
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada5377 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-21 22:51:38
July 21 2010 22:50 GMT
#41
I was just thinking. Can you rally into a Nydus? If so you could put a worm near the battle and reinforce as instantly as the toss can. Could be pretty neat and just one more example of how zerg just needs to explore more options.

And actually, even if you can't rally into the Nydus, its still fine. Just need to put some effort into it.
yScale
Profile Joined June 2010
41 Posts
July 21 2010 22:51 GMT
#42
Dont you guys worry. One day the (T)BoxeR of Sc2 Zerg will come along and 30% will switch to Zerg and try being awesome with the Race they decided to be underpowered.
He, who never made a mistake, never tried anyting new.
crappyleft
Profile Joined April 2010
99 Posts
July 21 2010 22:54 GMT
#43
On July 22 2010 07:30 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:

Show nested quote +
On July 22 2010 07:27 crappyleft wrote:
On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration.


And saying "Zerg is good" isn't an exaggeration? please...



Notice I didnt say zerg is great, zerg is OP, zerg is the best. I said zerg is good. Zerg can stay in there with the other races and win just like the other two and people need to stop saying Zerg is underpowered, because really it isn't.


What you say is true for mediocre players, but at the top level the things are pretty clear the latest results can't all be wrong. Statistics don't lie so blatantly, they can be wrong but not with the margins we've seen lately, and god knows we've had a ton of that in the past few days. You can't claim that 90% of the Zerg players play the race in wrong way, that would be just ignorant. You can claim that the metagame hasn't evolved enough or that the maps aren't balanced though.

Also if you claim zerg is good then they wouldn't need the "adjustments" you mentioned in your first post because that would make them great or OP. You try and make this whole point of zerg being fine, then you create a small loop whole for yourself with the last line. You either say they are good and all the races are equal, or you say zerg units need "more adjustments", which automatically debunks your whole all races are equal point.
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-21 22:54:40
July 21 2010 22:54 GMT
#44
@Fabled, Did you watch Sheth vs Huk? He had Creep at Huk's door on big maps like Lost Temple and Metalopolis in the early game and used that to do aggressive Hydra attacks. To aggressively spread creep you need more than just creep tumours he was using overlords to help them spread faster by having patches of creep for the creep tumour to target by the time the cooldown was ready.

Also Fungal Growth > Dropships so kind of, warp-ins are powerful but usually early on the zerg has a free reign of the map so if they're aggressively hunting down pylons they can't really. Nydus networks have been brought up in the past but usually by people like Avilo who say that you need to make multiple networks and build 10 worms at the same time. Putting one worm in each base and having an infestor ready to fungal growth to delay the army so that you can get your army out to defend is an extremely potent strategy. Yes some of these points have been brought up before but it doesnt change the fact that even the top zergs havent fully utilized all of the race's mechanics.

On July 22 2010 07:50 Bibbit wrote:
I was just thinking. Can you rally into a Nydus? If so you could put a worm near the battle and reinforce as instantly as the toss can. Could be pretty neat and just one more example of how zerg just needs to explore more options.

And actually, even if you can't rally into the Nydus, its still fine. Just need to put some effort into it.


And yes you can I've done it
Torture
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada221 Posts
July 21 2010 22:56 GMT
#45
As a Protoss player I think that Zerg looks fucking bad ass.
Brad
Profile Joined April 2010
2754 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-21 22:57:32
July 21 2010 22:57 GMT
#46
In before some Zerg gets 'The Revolutionist' nickname.
Lee Jae Dong proved that a focus on mechanics and execution could solve problems in the StarCraft game strategy.
buKe
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada168 Posts
July 21 2010 22:57 GMT
#47
so now everyones agreeing that zerg is not all that bad? quick someone make a thread about how bad it is and everyone will follow suit
Goobus
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong587 Posts
July 21 2010 23:01 GMT
#48
I agree with everything that has been said in this post! Hell, it's about time someone stood up for Zerg. Everyone's been whining about how they're too weak when I've barely seen nydus worms and tech switches being abused as much as they should be. Considering Zerg only has 9 units (8 of which are army units), they really need to be crafty. Unlike Terran, Zerg don't really have many units that completely hard counter the other races' units.

mufin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States616 Posts
July 21 2010 23:02 GMT
#49
very good post. I've always thought that the ability for zerg to tech switch so quickly and easily was something that we don't see nearly enough.

Zergs should be getting all of their t1 and t2 tech structures in the mid-late game and abuse the fact that they can spawn a direct counter to your army with just a little scouting. A pro zerg on 3-4 bases with every larva unit available to him is probably the scariest thing one could encounter.
I only make 5 actions per minute. But since I use all my time deliberating and planning, my 5 actions are so brutally devastating that children cry out and grown men weep.
Fenrir-Vice
Profile Joined May 2010
United States123 Posts
July 21 2010 23:02 GMT
#50
Well said realcun. The game is still in its infancy stages. Broodwar never got to the point where it is at until years after its release, we just need to give it time and to learn it.
Biscut Status: Buttered
Jadix
Profile Joined September 2004
United States134 Posts
July 21 2010 23:02 GMT
#51
Zerg is the only race I'm any good at. I think the Nydus network is the best ability in the game.
Two
Profile Joined May 2010
United States95 Posts
July 21 2010 23:09 GMT
#52
Tech Switches

Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time.

This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units.


Zerg is a race that reacts to their opponent depending on what the opponent does. If they weren't able to do this then Zerg would have no viability in this game what so ever. This brings up another point why scouting as a Zerg player is so important.

If Zerg wasn't able to just throw up a Roach Warren when they saw mass Zealots, they would lose. Zerg is a macro heavy race as you should know.

People who say Zerg is overpowered or underpowered wrong. Blizzard has been in production of Starcraft 2 for a stupidly long time. I am pretty sure they balanced out the 3 races pretty evenly.
ixi.genocide
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States981 Posts
July 21 2010 23:11 GMT
#53
In many ways I agree. These strategies are there for people to master to get zerg top tier. The problem with saying that is Toss and Terran are in the same category. With time all 3 races will improve dramatically and while improvements might not be as much as Zerg, I do think that zerg needs a buff (I would recommend making a 1 food unit that can your "main" army unit).

The thing about Terran mech is inevitability. Tanks are extremely powerful against ground and Thors counter air with rines and marauders being shields and great damage dealers themselves.

I think that the main strat that is going to balance out mech is having a large amount of zerglings waiting for the surround.
Ouga
Profile Joined March 2008
Finland645 Posts
July 21 2010 23:16 GMT
#54
I don't think balance issues are big enough to make a topic, zvp at least doesn't even feel bad. But this sort of topic doesn't prove a point either unless OP is wellknown zerg player. With my scene knowledge I'd only be happy with handful (10-15) zerg names opening this thread and saying zerg was fine I'm not aware what Raelcun is playing, but if not zerg at top level then there's just no sense making these topics. You have to have proof under own pelt to claim one race is completely balanced to have credibility. The same reason I wouldn't feel happy making topic "T imba!1" because I could not discuss all the details with high terran experience.
SugarBear
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States842 Posts
July 21 2010 23:16 GMT
#55
Thank you! Zerg is not nearly appreciated enough and it's nice to see someone who realizes it.
Staff vVv Gaming | "So what did you do today?" "Oh not much, mined some minerals, harvested some gas, spawned some zergs, the usual"
Dance.jhu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States292 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-21 23:26:36
July 21 2010 23:17 GMT
#56
EDIT:
How did blizzard drop the ball with Zerg?

below it...

Why Zerg is good.

lolol
It is what it is...
starcat
Profile Joined July 2010
66 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-21 23:20:08
July 21 2010 23:18 GMT
#57
On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Okay so I can't count how many QQ threads I've seen on Zerg being underpowered how it's uncreative it needs changes blah blah blah. Well I play zerg and I'm constantly around some of the best zergs around and generally I tend to disagree and I'm about to explain why.

Tech Switches

Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit. This makes Zerg the undeniable king of Tech Switching, yes the tech buildings can take quite a while to build but this is to balance out the fact that as soon as it's done there can be 20+ of that unit hatching at any given time.

This kind of rapid unit composition switching is unparalleled by the other races especially terran who has to deal with addons and switching them around if they want to change their unit composition even while dealing with the same units.

Mobility

The zerg air army can be very frightening when used correctly, creep giving movement boosts when exploited allows for aggressive creep expansion letting the zerg dominate the map early on in the game. Later in the game Nydus networks allow a zerg to move their army from one corner of the map to the other in the blink of an eye. Fungal Growth used effectively can stop the mobility of their opponents completely. Zerg is capable of out maneuvering every other race in the game with the exeption of the use of mass recall by protoss but that has limited uses when compared to a good nydus network setup.

Unit Production

Zerg has the capability to reproduce units faster than any other race with the queen mechanics, larva spit is so completely powerful and watching the top zergs at the moment you will see that even they don't miss larva injections. The zerg macro mechanic is tough to deal with as you have to manage every hatchery seperately requiring a lot more multitasking than warpins or dealing with add-ons. But when done effectively the rate at which a zerg can produce units is rather scary.

Conclusion

Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest:
  • Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up)
  • Transfusion strategies
  • Contamination
  • Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively


So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. Previously people complained that Ultras werent usable and that they were the reason why zerg didn't have any units and now Ultras are being used in top level play somewhat. There might be a few more adjustments to zerg units down the road but for now saying "Zerg sucks fix it now" is a bit of an exaggeration.


Zerg can produce and reproduce the most units, too bad they get melted in record time.

Read the QQ before QQing.

This isnt BW, the advantages to the things you are mentioning dont apply as much to sc2.
Tone_
Profile Joined May 2009
United Kingdom554 Posts
July 21 2010 23:20 GMT
#58
Good post Raelcun. Highlighting the reasons why zerg is great (not moreso than others perhaps) but why you shouldn't blame the race when you can't play.
Hasta La Victoria Siempre | 톤
tollz
Profile Joined July 2010
United States17 Posts
July 21 2010 23:20 GMT
#59
i agree with everything Raelcun said EXCEPT the part about Zerg's Air, pheonixes are a huge threat if used corrrectly, and well all i gotta say about Terran is "god damn vikings"
YUT OORAH KILL
Qzy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Denmark1121 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-21 23:26:33
July 21 2010 23:23 GMT
#60
The only problem zerg has atm, is the inability to scout properly. Yes you can sacrifice an overlord, but until you get lair up, and get the overlord speed upgrade, you are pretty much fucked, if a toss decides to give you an early push, cos you wont see it coming that easy.

They gotta change overlord upgrade to hatch, and not lair.

And do i really need to mention all the hardcounters to zerg, with their inability to kill anything that flies? =).
TG Sambo... Intel classic! Life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
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