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On July 27 2010 07:24 Happy.fairytail wrote:
And I wonder why Zergs never use overlords to shuttle their queens around? I mean, isn't this what Toss do in BW all the time with their reavers?
And I wonder why Zerg aren't more aggressive with map control? Mass vikings are owned by fungal growth + hydras. I feel like zerg should own the air every single game.
I feel like there is still yet creativity to be explored...!
Can you be more specific with what you're trying to accomplish using queen/overlord drop? If you're talking about spreading creep everywhere that is accomplished by being proactive in the first place with creep tumors and makes this unnecessary. I hope you don't mean using queens offensively because they don't do a lot of damage and transfuse is limited in it's use.
Aggressive map control using...hydras and infestors? Hydras and infestors come out slower than vikings can kill a few overlords. Not to mention hydras + map control is a contradictory idea because hydralisks are incredibly slow and are limited to being defensive on creep or drop play or big a-move death marches. You will never get hydras AND infestors at the same time to counter early viking harass. Not to mention that if the terran has somehow tricked you into building hydralisks then you deserve to lose to the inevitable tank push.
No offense but it seems you're calling out for "creativity" for the sake of being creative, as opposed to creativity leading to "viable" strategies. 2 hatch mass drone rush is creative but it's not exactly viable.
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Well I guess we can agree to disagree. Where I see unexplored build orders and tactics, you see 2 hatch mass drone rush lol
Oh well, I'm going to switch to Zerg anyway =] see you in a few
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On July 27 2010 07:36 DoomFox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 07:24 Happy.fairytail wrote:
And I wonder why Zergs never use overlords to shuttle their queens around? I mean, isn't this what Toss do in BW all the time with their reavers?
And I wonder why Zerg aren't more aggressive with map control? Mass vikings are owned by fungal growth + hydras. I feel like zerg should own the air every single game.
I feel like there is still yet creativity to be explored...! Can you be more specific with what you're trying to accomplish using queen/overlord drop? If you're talking about spreading creep everywhere that is accomplished by being proactive in the first place with creep tumors and makes this unnecessary. I hope you don't mean using queens offensively because they don't do a lot of damage and transfuse is limited in it's use. Aggressive map control using...hydras and infestors? Hydras and infestors come out slower than vikings can kill a few overlords. Not to mention hydras + map control is a contradictory idea because hydralisks are incredibly slow and are limited to being defensive on creep or drop play or big a-move death marches. You will never get hydras AND infestors at the same time to counter early viking harass. Not to mention that if the terran has somehow tricked you into building hydralisks then you deserve to lose to the inevitable tank push. No offense but it seems you're calling out for "creativity" for the sake of being creative, as opposed to creativity leading to "viable" strategies. 2 hatch mass drone rush is creative but it's not exactly viable.
I'll go ahead and refine it for him, since you're evidently speaking as much out of your ass as those you condemn.
Using overlords to ferry queens about is actually a very good way to spread creep, since you get to lay a tumor where there was no creep initially, you get the full radial benefit of it's spread. This is opposed to, of course, spreading creep from the edge of your own creep, which only receives half of the radial benefit. Technically your creep can advance twice as quickly once you hit lair tech and can manage your pathways with overlords.
Also, I'm pretty sure he was just referring to hydras/Infestors as a generally good AA, which they are. Hydras or Infestors on their own have no trouble creating a boundary that kills unwary vikings, as the harass begins to return less than you get for it. Also, you can switch the production between the two whenever you want really. Hydras and Infestors at the same time doesn't work well, but Hydras, THEN Infestor/Speedling works great. Then you can go back to Hydras and possibly even pepper banelings into your mix. The Zerg macro system is somewhat harsh, but very, very malleable once you get it down.
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On July 27 2010 07:49 Happy.fairytail wrote:
Well I guess we can agree to disagree. Where I see unexplored build orders and tactics, you see 2 hatch mass drone rush lol
Oh well, I'm going to switch to Zerg anyway =] see you in a few
Indeed. We can all creatively create ourselves into a losing w/l ratio. GL 
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On July 27 2010 07:51 JinjoBust wrote:
I'll go ahead and refine it for him, since you're evidently speaking as much out of your ass as those you condemn.
Using overlords to ferry queens about is actually a very good way to spread creep, since you get to lay a tumor where there was no creep initially, you get the full radial benefit of it's spread. This is opposed to, of course, spreading creep from the edge of your own creep, which only receives half of the radial benefit. Technically your creep can advance twice as quickly once you hit lair tech and can manage your pathways with overlords.
Also, I'm pretty sure he was just referring to hydras/Infestors as a generally good AA, which they are. Hydras or Infestors on their own have no trouble creating a boundary that kills unwary vikings, as the harass begins to return less than you get for it. Also, you can switch the production between the two whenever you want really. Hydras and Infestors at the same time doesn't work well, but Hydras, THEN Infestor/Speedling works great. Then you can go back to Hydras and possibly even pepper banelings into your mix. The Zerg macro system is somewhat harsh, but very, very malleable once you get it down.
See, the hydra/infestor combo you just clarified I have no problem with. But the queen/overlord, as far as I'm concerned isn't necessary.
I've been using a 13 pool/ queen/ queen/ build which allows to me never skip a beat on larva inject and use all of the 2nd queens energy on making 6-7 creep tumors at the start of the game.
By the time lair tech arrives, my creep has expanded to nearly halfway across the map already no exageration. And by mid-game the creep is already at his front door, assuming he isn't already clearing your tumors with detection. Sorry I should have clarified why I felt that strat was unecessary.
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I've noticed that, so far in this thread at least, that most non-Zerg players (myself included to some extent, I'm sure) are at a loss as to why Zerg players are dissatisfied with their race.
Besides aesthetics (personally, I find the Zerg to have rather bad@$$ looking units) and "coolness" (straight-up speed upgrades instead of "Charge" or "Blink", for example) what is it that really makes Zerg players feel underpowered? It's not that their units need improvement in general -- good Zergs feel competitive with Protoss. It's not against MMM bio either, which is shut down by banelings and infestors. It's biomech or pure mech that causes problems.
Then again, I doubt it's really endgame mech/biomech either that really gets under the skin of non-pro Zergs, since T3 Zerg can be pretty competitive with mech/biomech (or at least force the Terran to branch out in tech drastically, like forcing a ton of Vikings if the Zerg masses Broodlords & Corruptors, which means less supply for Thors and tanks).
It sounds like it's the midgame that Zergs have issue with. If they open Mutalisks, they can harass but not well enough to deter the Terran from simply pushing out and leveling his base (and the Zerg can't stop it because with all their gas into Mutas, they don't have an army that can compete with mech at that stage).
How can Zergs make their mid-T2 and T2/T3 transition stronger against mech heavy play?
WARNING: KOTB spoiler below.
+ Show Spoiler + I was really impressed by how IdrA handled TLO's terran mech when he opened with Muta harass and transitioned into Roaches. It seems like that could be an answer to early mech pushes (I think TLO had like 8 Hellions, 3 Thors and 3 tanks?). However, if I recall correctly, they were cross-positioned on Metalopolis. Something tells me that if the distance had been closer, IdrA may not have gotten enough Roaches in time to successfully fight it off (he waited until the last possible second to engage TLO).
It doesn't seem like a reliable counter, even though it did work. The counter needs to be reliable even on small maps -- it's not balanced for Zerg if it's just an auto-loss to mech every time the map comes up Blistering Sands.
OFF-TOPIC: Did anybody else cringe hard in the Battlecruiser IdrA v. TLO match? Something tells me IdrA didn't know that they changed Neural Parasite... he would have won if he had put the gas into corruptors instead...
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"Did anybody else cringe hard in the Battlecruiser IdrA v. TLO match? Something tells me IdrA didn't know that they changed Neural Parasite... he would have won if he had put the gas into corruptors instead..."
Think everyone did. But really the problem was he didnt focus down the ones he had under control. Like he would take control and then just wait it out and then... die I guess.
But yeah seems like its the midgame as you said thats the problem. I personally feel like its the lag of AoE. Fungal is just bad compared to siege tanks, helions, storm and collu. And banelings are really only good against lightarmored targets like marines and helions.
When zerg hits T3 they shouldnt be complaining about anything, ultras and broodlords are pretty damn sick.
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On July 27 2010 08:22 Toxigen wrote:I've noticed that, so far in this thread at least, that most non-Zerg players (myself included to some extent, I'm sure) are at a loss as to why Zerg players are dissatisfied with their race. Besides aesthetics (personally, I find the Zerg to have rather bad@$$ looking units) and "coolness" (straight-up speed upgrades instead of "Charge" or "Blink", for example) what is it that really makes Zerg players feel underpowered? It's not that their units need improvement in general -- good Zergs feel competitive with Protoss. It's not against MMM bio either, which is shut down by banelings and infestors. It's biomech or pure mech that causes problems. Then again, I doubt it's really endgame mech/biomech either that really gets under the skin of non-pro Zergs, since T3 Zerg can be pretty competitive with mech/biomech (or at least force the Terran to branch out in tech drastically, like forcing a ton of Vikings if the Zerg masses Broodlords & Corruptors, which means less supply for Thors and tanks). It sounds like it's the midgame that Zergs have issue with. If they open Mutalisks, they can harass but not well enough to deter the Terran from simply pushing out and leveling his base (and the Zerg can't stop it because with all their gas into Mutas, they don't have an army that can compete with mech at that stage). How can Zergs make their mid-T2 and T2/T3 transition stronger against mech heavy play? WARNING: KOTB spoiler below. + Show Spoiler + I was really impressed by how IdrA handled TLO's terran mech when he opened with Muta harass and transitioned into Roaches. It seems like that could be an answer to early mech pushes (I think TLO had like 8 Hellions, 3 Thors and 3 tanks?). However, if I recall correctly, they were cross-positioned on Metalopolis. Something tells me that if the distance had been closer, IdrA may not have gotten enough Roaches in time to successfully fight it off (he waited until the last possible second to engage TLO).
It doesn't seem like a reliable counter, even though it did work. The counter needs to be reliable even on small maps -- it's not balanced for Zerg if it's just an auto-loss to mech every time the map comes up Blistering Sands.
OFF-TOPIC: Did anybody else cringe hard in the Battlecruiser IdrA v. TLO match? Something tells me IdrA didn't know that they changed Neural Parasite... he would have won if he had put the gas into corruptors instead...
I think you're the first non-zerg player in this thread who actually understands what's going on with zerg.
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On July 27 2010 07:01 OHtRUe wrote:
The problem is I could create a gigantic list of why zerg is bad that overshadows your terrible list of Why Zerg is Good~
Ha this is the truest post of them all. I have friends. That played BW regularly with me back in the days but didnt keep with it as long as i did. And when they watch me play sc2 they just go holy crap terran and protoss have cool shit. Why are you playing Zerg? And i dont have any answer other than im a Zerg devoted player. I can admit they suck horribly .
I lol everytime i see the 100s of posts from players saying zerg doesnt suck.. its just the players that play zerg. hahaha get real.
Basically zerg play is suvive cheese, harassment, timing pushes etc. whatever is thrown at you. Until you finally crush their whole army in one ill fated battle. Then Zerg macro gives you the win.
Theres baneling busts drop/worm play that can get you a few wins. But other than that theres no innovation to be had. You cant win unless you crush terran or protoss whole army. Which is the hard part. Its not hard for terran or protoss to crush your army over and over again. But its not hard to rebuild your zerg army either.
My only advice to fellow Zerg is to always have 2 extra expos that arent even satured maybe just gas. Saturating more than 4 bases just wastes your supply. its a shame you cant morph drones to banelings or something useful to get your supply back without wasting too much money. (creep tumors plz blizzard) crawlers are too expensive and useless.
1.SO you have a place to send your drones when inevitably one of your working expansions dies.
2. you have something to stall if they choose to kill your pointless hatcherys.
3. extra larva.
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Well, all you people basing which race is the best on how a few players (just 2?!) do as zerg, don't understand statistics. If I flip a coin three times, there is a chance I'll get heads 3x in a row. OMG!!! The coin's rigged! Imba IMBA!!!! That's as silly as those ID proponents saying that the universe in which we exist is so unlikely to have come to be on its own that it is thus impossible that it wasn't "guided by a divine hand". Perhaps all permutations of the universe are equally unlikely, but some permutation (1 out infinity possibilities?) must be the one to exist... Just as I can roll 10 d10's, and any combination that I roll has a 1:10^10 chance of being rolled, and thus the chances of a roll such as: <1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1> had the probability of 1:10^10 of being rolled, so I must not have rolled it, but rather place it that way... OMG! the dice are IMBA!!
Any statistician will tell you that such a low N (sample size) of 2 Zerg players will not give you accurate results. Get a large number of each, say 1000 terran players, 1000 protoss, and 1000 zerg, and then if the zerg always lose, you might be on to something in crying "IMBA!!!" though there's still a chance you're wrong, yet then I would be inclined to agree, given such evidence. But over just a single KOTB, quit QQ'ing IMBA, Zerg are still awesome.
To further refute this argument, imagine if people were to say that there were more top chess players whom came from a communist country, and thus communism must be OP'd in comparison to a silly capitalist society only capable of making one gem such as, oh, Bobby Fischer... It would just as silly to say that since Fischer beat them all that one time that capitalism is the superior society. Perhaps one group of people happen to play better than the other group, not necessarily due to the group from which they came, but perhaps by sheer luck of where they spawned (or picked as a fave race, in terms of SC2). Perhaps, as in SC2, there just happen to be better skilled players who prefer protoss and terran.
No, perhaps the people at the top who aren't Zerg, at the moment, happen to be better, perhaps Idra and Dimaga were off there game on the replays we saw. (OMG, 2 really good Zerg, but just two players, and keep in mind Idra apparently has a win:loss ratio of games played of 5:4, which is nothing at which to sneeze.)
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And hahaha
Game Spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Sheth as Zerg, beat LZGamer as Terran in the ICCup portion of the Day9 opening party  Take that you Zerg haters. And who said Zerg doesn't have nukes?! It's called banelings (with fungal growth makes it better), yo
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On July 27 2010 10:02 DuncanIdaho wrote:
Stuff
This is just a heads up...people have been saying this for a lot longer than the KOTB has been going on. While I'm sure you felt really empowered writing that wall of text, there have been hundreds, if not thousands of players that have been very vocal about it on this board. People aren't basing this on how pro-gamers are doing; they're basing it on their own experiences. No idea how you could have misunderstood that.
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All the qqs will stop for a while since idra won Day9 tournament .
I expect more to surface after a while though.
Zerg are really hard to master but once you do it is the most rewarding race .
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+ Show Spoiler +
Well to be fair QxC wasn't really at his top game in the semi finals, but still Idra did represent.
I cant wait to get home and finally play the game in its full release glory.
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On July 27 2010 20:02 st3roids wrote:
All the qqs will stop for a while since idra won Day9 tournament .
I expect more to surface after a while though.
Zerg are really hard to master but once you do it is the most rewarding race .
Wow, thanks for the spoiler. The torney happened in the middle of the night and hasn't been uploaded yet...
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On July 27 2010 13:43 Disp wrote:crap
While I'm sure you felt very impowered by your rebuke, I assure you many have been using the recent games to justify their opinions, which yes, were based on their own inabilities to play well as Zerg. I did not misunderstand that, I realize people have been qq'ing for some time now that Zerg are the nerfed race, but I was upset about several of the posts in this thread using the recent games as "evidence."
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yes now that a zerg won _one tournament_ there can be no doubt: zerg is powerfull..........ffs mybe idra won because he is MUCH MUCH better player that littererly gets paid to play infron of audiences..
Zerg offcreep are just to slow except speedlings, but they are easily countered by every race
Zerg? make one baneling, or roaches.
Protos? zealot ff stalker, or collosus? or blinkstalkers
Terran hellion reaper tanks..
This means Z is no threat earlygame, so you are forced to play a reactionary style..and Z units dont really serve that purpose well, because they DIE so fast ....
it can be real frustrating getting a 200 pop army only to lose the fight at your doorstep and not having the time to rebuild your force eventhough you had a clear economic advantage...
Perhaps Z's have to learn to fight offcreep, that way you could reinforce much easier..
Imo the 'broken' units in Z are corrupters: obviously broken..wtf is this unit supposed to serve as anti collosus? hows that gonna work against stalkers sentry, blink etc..
counters BC/carriers. granted..but those units are not really a problem in 99.9% of the games due to obvious reasons.
Hydralisk: way to slow offcreep, practiclly unmicroable. I dunno what to do about them....they can easily become overpowred if blizz improve their movementspeed... but they need something imo, they are crazy good defensively on creep.
roaches: nerfed into oblivion.. the 2 food is really hurting once you near maxed out army, the unit itself is very good... personally I think that roaches would be a lot stronger if they raised the supply cap to something like 250 possibly 300.
Its way to easy to cap out when building roaches, and they are really needed.. makes u lose a lot of fight were you have higher food count, better upgrades and better positioning simpyl because some higherpower determined that you could only have 200 supply :-(
infestors: neural parasite was way to good, true. But now it is just retarded bad. perhaps a compromise? it needs something because rite now I much rather go brood lord, which is saying A LOT.
obviously Im not asking for a buff on every single unit I talked about... Im just detailing my personal opinion on how they feel to me.
Perhaps the metagame will change and we will be in here complaining about Z imba like in early beta, but right now it feels like I need to play way better as Z than as T to beat my opponents, and I bealive I have played way more Z.
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My first TL post =) hello everyone. I'm sure this is just rehashing what others have said but whatever...
a little background: I started playing in the beta in late april. I've played 2 games as terran and one as protoss, and a few hundred as zerg.
i wouldnt say I'm a great player but I am decent. I am currently in a platinum league in retail and have won more then 50% of my games so far.
playing as zerg is very frustrating sometimes, especially in the early/mid game and especially against a meching terran.
brood lords make it all worthwhile right now though. people hate on these units it seems like. 90% of the time I get them out I win though. the element of surprise probably helps, no one seems to expect these.
ive had some success with rushing brood lords actually. i started working on this in the beta and have won 2 live games with this strat against meching terrans, albeit the timing was very close on his attack and the BL's popping. once they do pop they wipe up the mech ball quickly.
i think i made it sound too easy. it is not easy to do this and very risky, but if it is successful you will more then likely win.
just my .02
vapo
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ye good ole flundra rush.. cute in theory but not really doable, also vikings 
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good macro is needed for zerg.
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EPT
