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On July 27 2010 05:54 DTown wrote:
I swear to god I'm not trolling. But if you think I am, then the mods will likely agree with you. I'll just leave it here. What with zerg only having one unit that can shoot up and all.
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Zerg may be the so called king of tech switching, but their units have to be massed, as their units are balanced around being able to make a lot of them from all larvae. Its not like each hatchery is making a siege tank, or a thor, or stalkers or immortals. They make fast low hp zerg units, that you need a lot of, and in the right position, to do good damage. So tech switching isn't really a plus, at least not a huge plus.
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On July 27 2010 05:55 Ruthless wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:44 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:40 Ruthless wrote:
Ahout mech: although i do think it is hard to beat i know we can argue about map balance being the problem, but at the end of the day you are just agreeing that zvt is broken you just are blaming it on something else.
Mech aside, i think the matchup feels so hard for z because of the sheer amount of nearly unscoutable strategues all of which require a unique response to avoid falling way behind not to mention the amount of vulnerability zerg must submit to in order to take an advantage.
I will list all the strats i am thinking about when i have to play zerg.
Early reaper.
Reaper bunker rush
Marine bunker rush
Early hellions into expand
Early hellions into more hellions
Thor drop
Hell8on maurader timing push
Marine hellion iming push
Banshees
Banshees with cloak
Thor.timing push
Tank play
If i make the wrong choice on what your hiding behind the wall off. i literally have no chance. You pick the harrass and if i play too safe i have no way to punish you with my defensive slow units that die to one tank on the ridge. I dont play safe enough and four hellions kills 10 or more drones.
If terran expects mutas and gets a thor. And the flthree to four turrets it takes to cover two bases (lol). The thor can be dropped or used to great effect against ground.
If zerg goes muta and terran has five rines and a thor your out 1000-1400 resources for nothing because they die like paper to terran anti air. I think I'm going to quote myself, much earlier in this thread in regards to this. On July 27 2010 03:50 MythicalMage wrote:
And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. Thats an explanation for why you agree with me tha zerg vs terran is an unfair matchuo? You are just shifting the debate and everyone is falling into it. I dont really care about your speculations about zergs degree of completion or your speculations on their future development. I am more interested in discussing the idea of zerg vs terran and the difficulties i have been facing more and more as the entire terran player base is discovering more ways to exploit zergs Then what I said is irrelevant to what you want to talk about. I, as someone who has played so little zerg, obviously know nothing of the race and can be of no help to you.
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On July 27 2010 05:58 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:55 Ruthless wrote:On July 27 2010 05:44 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:40 Ruthless wrote:
Ahout mech: although i do think it is hard to beat i know we can argue about map balance being the problem, but at the end of the day you are just agreeing that zvt is broken you just are blaming it on something else.
Mech aside, i think the matchup feels so hard for z because of the sheer amount of nearly unscoutable strategues all of which require a unique response to avoid falling way behind not to mention the amount of vulnerability zerg must submit to in order to take an advantage.
I will list all the strats i am thinking about when i have to play zerg.
Early reaper.
Reaper bunker rush
Marine bunker rush
Early hellions into expand
Early hellions into more hellions
Thor drop
Hell8on maurader timing push
Marine hellion iming push
Banshees
Banshees with cloak
Thor.timing push
Tank play
If i make the wrong choice on what your hiding behind the wall off. i literally have no chance. You pick the harrass and if i play too safe i have no way to punish you with my defensive slow units that die to one tank on the ridge. I dont play safe enough and four hellions kills 10 or more drones.
If terran expects mutas and gets a thor. And the flthree to four turrets it takes to cover two bases (lol). The thor can be dropped or used to great effect against ground.
If zerg goes muta and terran has five rines and a thor your out 1000-1400 resources for nothing because they die like paper to terran anti air. I think I'm going to quote myself, much earlier in this thread in regards to this. On July 27 2010 03:50 MythicalMage wrote:
And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. Thats an explanation for why you agree with me tha zerg vs terran is an unfair matchuo? You are just shifting the debate and everyone is falling into it. I dont really care about your speculations about zergs degree of completion or your speculations on their future development. I am more interested in discussing the idea of zerg vs terran and the difficulties i have been facing more and more as the entire terran player base is discovering more ways to exploit zergs Then what I said is irrelevant to what you want to talk about. I, as someone who has played so little zerg, obviously know nothing of the race and can be of no help to you.
Then why are you in this thread? Oh yea, you're trolling.
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Then i would appreciate if you dont fill this thread with garbage thanks.
I know my post is like two pages deep in flame now but i would really like to hear terran and zerg players thoughts on what i have said. If they find it relatable etc
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On July 27 2010 05:58 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:55 Ruthless wrote:On July 27 2010 05:44 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:40 Ruthless wrote:
Ahout mech: although i do think it is hard to beat i know we can argue about map balance being the problem, but at the end of the day you are just agreeing that zvt is broken you just are blaming it on something else.
Mech aside, i think the matchup feels so hard for z because of the sheer amount of nearly unscoutable strategues all of which require a unique response to avoid falling way behind not to mention the amount of vulnerability zerg must submit to in order to take an advantage.
I will list all the strats i am thinking about when i have to play zerg.
Early reaper.
Reaper bunker rush
Marine bunker rush
Early hellions into expand
Early hellions into more hellions
Thor drop
Hell8on maurader timing push
Marine hellion iming push
Banshees
Banshees with cloak
Thor.timing push
Tank play
If i make the wrong choice on what your hiding behind the wall off. i literally have no chance. You pick the harrass and if i play too safe i have no way to punish you with my defensive slow units that die to one tank on the ridge. I dont play safe enough and four hellions kills 10 or more drones.
If terran expects mutas and gets a thor. And the flthree to four turrets it takes to cover two bases (lol). The thor can be dropped or used to great effect against ground.
If zerg goes muta and terran has five rines and a thor your out 1000-1400 resources for nothing because they die like paper to terran anti air. I think I'm going to quote myself, much earlier in this thread in regards to this. On July 27 2010 03:50 MythicalMage wrote:
And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. Thats an explanation for why you agree with me tha zerg vs terran is an unfair matchuo? You are just shifting the debate and everyone is falling into it. I dont really care about your speculations about zergs degree of completion or your speculations on their future development. I am more interested in discussing the idea of zerg vs terran and the difficulties i have been facing more and more as the entire terran player base is discovering more ways to exploit zergs Then what I said is irrelevant to what you want to talk about. I, as someone who has played so little zerg, obviously know nothing of the race and can be of no help to you.
Self-admitted lack of knowledge of Zerg + Strongly opinionated Zerg-based statements = ?
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On July 27 2010 05:59 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:58 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:55 Ruthless wrote:On July 27 2010 05:44 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:40 Ruthless wrote:
Ahout mech: although i do think it is hard to beat i know we can argue about map balance being the problem, but at the end of the day you are just agreeing that zvt is broken you just are blaming it on something else.
Mech aside, i think the matchup feels so hard for z because of the sheer amount of nearly unscoutable strategues all of which require a unique response to avoid falling way behind not to mention the amount of vulnerability zerg must submit to in order to take an advantage.
I will list all the strats i am thinking about when i have to play zerg.
Early reaper.
Reaper bunker rush
Marine bunker rush
Early hellions into expand
Early hellions into more hellions
Thor drop
Hell8on maurader timing push
Marine hellion iming push
Banshees
Banshees with cloak
Thor.timing push
Tank play
If i make the wrong choice on what your hiding behind the wall off. i literally have no chance. You pick the harrass and if i play too safe i have no way to punish you with my defensive slow units that die to one tank on the ridge. I dont play safe enough and four hellions kills 10 or more drones.
If terran expects mutas and gets a thor. And the flthree to four turrets it takes to cover two bases (lol). The thor can be dropped or used to great effect against ground.
If zerg goes muta and terran has five rines and a thor your out 1000-1400 resources for nothing because they die like paper to terran anti air. I think I'm going to quote myself, much earlier in this thread in regards to this. On July 27 2010 03:50 MythicalMage wrote:
And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. Thats an explanation for why you agree with me tha zerg vs terran is an unfair matchuo? You are just shifting the debate and everyone is falling into it. I dont really care about your speculations about zergs degree of completion or your speculations on their future development. I am more interested in discussing the idea of zerg vs terran and the difficulties i have been facing more and more as the entire terran player base is discovering more ways to exploit zergs Then what I said is irrelevant to what you want to talk about. I, as someone who has played so little zerg, obviously know nothing of the race and can be of no help to you. Then why are you in this thread? Oh yea, you're trolling.
I suspect he is here to farm his post-count 
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On July 27 2010 05:59 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:58 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:55 Ruthless wrote:On July 27 2010 05:44 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:40 Ruthless wrote:
Ahout mech: although i do think it is hard to beat i know we can argue about map balance being the problem, but at the end of the day you are just agreeing that zvt is broken you just are blaming it on something else.
Mech aside, i think the matchup feels so hard for z because of the sheer amount of nearly unscoutable strategues all of which require a unique response to avoid falling way behind not to mention the amount of vulnerability zerg must submit to in order to take an advantage.
I will list all the strats i am thinking about when i have to play zerg.
Early reaper.
Reaper bunker rush
Marine bunker rush
Early hellions into expand
Early hellions into more hellions
Thor drop
Hell8on maurader timing push
Marine hellion iming push
Banshees
Banshees with cloak
Thor.timing push
Tank play
If i make the wrong choice on what your hiding behind the wall off. i literally have no chance. You pick the harrass and if i play too safe i have no way to punish you with my defensive slow units that die to one tank on the ridge. I dont play safe enough and four hellions kills 10 or more drones.
If terran expects mutas and gets a thor. And the flthree to four turrets it takes to cover two bases (lol). The thor can be dropped or used to great effect against ground.
If zerg goes muta and terran has five rines and a thor your out 1000-1400 resources for nothing because they die like paper to terran anti air. I think I'm going to quote myself, much earlier in this thread in regards to this. On July 27 2010 03:50 MythicalMage wrote:
And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. Thats an explanation for why you agree with me tha zerg vs terran is an unfair matchuo? You are just shifting the debate and everyone is falling into it. I dont really care about your speculations about zergs degree of completion or your speculations on their future development. I am more interested in discussing the idea of zerg vs terran and the difficulties i have been facing more and more as the entire terran player base is discovering more ways to exploit zergs Then what I said is irrelevant to what you want to talk about. I, as someone who has played so little zerg, obviously know nothing of the race and can be of no help to you. Then why are you in this thread? Oh yea, you're trolling.
That was a joke. XD.
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On July 27 2010 06:00 okrane wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:59 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 05:58 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:55 Ruthless wrote:On July 27 2010 05:44 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:40 Ruthless wrote:
Ahout mech: although i do think it is hard to beat i know we can argue about map balance being the problem, but at the end of the day you are just agreeing that zvt is broken you just are blaming it on something else.
Mech aside, i think the matchup feels so hard for z because of the sheer amount of nearly unscoutable strategues all of which require a unique response to avoid falling way behind not to mention the amount of vulnerability zerg must submit to in order to take an advantage.
I will list all the strats i am thinking about when i have to play zerg.
Early reaper.
Reaper bunker rush
Marine bunker rush
Early hellions into expand
Early hellions into more hellions
Thor drop
Hell8on maurader timing push
Marine hellion iming push
Banshees
Banshees with cloak
Thor.timing push
Tank play
If i make the wrong choice on what your hiding behind the wall off. i literally have no chance. You pick the harrass and if i play too safe i have no way to punish you with my defensive slow units that die to one tank on the ridge. I dont play safe enough and four hellions kills 10 or more drones.
If terran expects mutas and gets a thor. And the flthree to four turrets it takes to cover two bases (lol). The thor can be dropped or used to great effect against ground.
If zerg goes muta and terran has five rines and a thor your out 1000-1400 resources for nothing because they die like paper to terran anti air. I think I'm going to quote myself, much earlier in this thread in regards to this. On July 27 2010 03:50 MythicalMage wrote:
And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. Thats an explanation for why you agree with me tha zerg vs terran is an unfair matchuo? You are just shifting the debate and everyone is falling into it. I dont really care about your speculations about zergs degree of completion or your speculations on their future development. I am more interested in discussing the idea of zerg vs terran and the difficulties i have been facing more and more as the entire terran player base is discovering more ways to exploit zergs Then what I said is irrelevant to what you want to talk about. I, as someone who has played so little zerg, obviously know nothing of the race and can be of no help to you. Then why are you in this thread? Oh yea, you're trolling. I suspect he is here to farm his post-count
Well, unless he can change his name, it won't do him much good. No one reading this thread will do anything but laugh at his future posts.
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I'm not trying to backseat moderate, but this thread has really gone to shit. Can we stop bashing MythicalMage and get back on topic, please?
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I think people were trying really hard to keep it on track, but he replied to literally every post. I will repost my post, I really am curious to hear some feedback on it.
Ahout mech: although i do think it is hard to beat i know we can argue about map balance being the problem, but at the end of the day you are just agreeing that zvt is broken you just are blaming it on something else.
Mech aside, i think the matchup feels so hard for z because of the sheer amount of nearly unscoutable strategues all of which require a unique response to avoid falling way behind not to mention the amount of vulnerability zerg must submit to in order to take an advantage.
I will list all the strats i am thinking about when i have to play zerg.
Early reaper.
Reaper bunker rush
Marine bunker rush
Early hellions into expand
Early hellions into more hellions
Thor drop
Hell8on maurader timing push
Marine hellion iming push
Banshees
Banshees with cloak
Thor.timing push
Tank play
If i make the wrong choice on what your hiding behind the wall off. i literally have no chance. You pick the harrass and if i play too safe i have no way to punish you with my defensive slow units that die to one tank on the ridge. I dont play safe enough and four hellions kills 10 or more drones.
If terran expects mutas and gets a thor. And the flthree to four turrets it takes to cover two bases (lol). The thor can be dropped or used to great effect against ground.
If zerg goes muta and terran has five rines and a thor your out 1000-1400 resources for nothing because they die like paper to terran anti air.
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Right. Well, here is my own weak attempt to right the ship. Does anyone have some specific knowledge on # of hits to kill for Thors to take out mutas, as well as the affects of upgrades on this dynamic?
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Thors kill mutas in 3 hits regardless of armor upgrades I believe. Mutas are generally only useful in terran matches if you scout hellion/marauder. It is generally ineffective against any other unit composition. Also, 2+ turrets stop all early muta harassment.
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I agree with the OP that Larva Injection is one of the most important mechanics that every zerg player should master. Keeping up with larva injection and fast expanding will get you the biggest army in game. But keeping tab on the injection is too micro intensive.
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I don't mind thors killing mutalisks effortlessly, but I do mind that they do splash damage. What's the reasoning for giving Thor bonus damage against units like mutalisks, giving Thors tremendous aa range, and splash damage?
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On July 27 2010 06:04 Ruthless wrote:
etc.
When playing in the dark I think going roaches combined with 1-2 spinecrawlers while teching to lair is generally a safe bet.
It should hold back most early unit composition harassment but will lose to all-in mass marauder.
While you're teching to lair you really have no choice but to sac 1-2 overlords to see their tech pattern and adjust accordingly. I would only go spire if he's going mass marauder or marauder/hellion otherwise I would just get burrow/moveburrow and mass roaches until you can determine whether or not you can safely expand/ transition to another tech.
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i gots to admit, ever having found out that queens is a good counter to air and most forms of harass builds, zerg has seemed a lot better recently.
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On July 27 2010 06:13 Deathstar wrote:
I don't mind thors killing mutalisks effortlessly, but I do mind that they do splash damage. What's the reasoning for giving Thor bonus damage against units like mutalisks, giving Thors tremendous aa range, and splash damage?
Thors were always strong against mutalisks even before the AA splash was added. In fact you could have just 1 thor and add a handful of marines and that's just as effective yet cheaper than adding a 2nd thor. I've never understood why blizz feels thors alone are justified to be such strong anti-air when their other options are just as viable without being overpowered.
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Ruthless, I was going to list a bunch of things that Terrans are always worried about in TvZ, but I realized one major thing: US Zerg play has largely been uncreative for majority of the beta. The same openings we've seen from the beginning of the beta are still here today, except that roaches have been nerfed to the point where 1-base mass roach isn't viable anymore. We still see 14 pool 16 hatch, 14 hatch, and 14 pool/queen/hatch.
On the other hand, US Terran play has evolved greatly. 3 rax marauder, 1 rax FE, proxy rax reaper, fast banshee, 1/1/1, fast hellion, fast thorship, fast tank/bunker roll, mass viking into BCs, mass marine/ghost, marine/tank/raven push, bio-oriented drop harass, and so-on.
In addition, Zerg mid-game has been rather stale as well -- only recently have US Zergs begun to incorporate queens, infestors, burrow and drops into their play. In addition, I have rarely seen a Zerg timing push -- in fact, it seems like Zergs never consider timing into any of their games, they almost always play extremely passively, relying only on mutas to do their harass, and their macro to win their game for them.
It just seems to me the reason why TvZ seems so Terran favored is that Terran play has expanded greatly over the beta, while Zergs have just gotten by on the strength of their macro and mutas/ling/bling. Yes, now Terran has so many options -- does Zerg really only have like 2-3 openings and 2-3 mid game plays available to them?
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The reason why Terran has expanded so much over the beta is because the have so many more options to do so. It's not because Zerg players just don't know how to innovate. I hate that argument.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPdgAG7cqJEQkikd8eXsQZiFytktJarCoNNSHYtCsl1lQCauM&t=1&usg=__RF5fWHYWysHsfa8VaLHpYo620sQ=)
