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On July 27 2010 04:58 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:56 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:54 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:53 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:52 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:50 zTz wrote:
Lol @ argument...
Anyways, for all you Blizzard flamers and "OP Terran/UP Zerg" screamers out there: this is the Terran package, next comes Zerg, then Protoss. GG.
Thanks for this thread, there is nothing wrong with Zerg, Blizzard is a lot smarter than the angry preteen gamers who call them idiots. Are you implying that Blizzard purposely intended for Terran to be the strongest race because the Terran campaign is being released? And then did you actually follow that up by insulting other peopless intelligence? Really? Really? No. I'm fairly certain he's implying that Zerg is not "complete." Under that logic, no race is complete. It's not as if only Zerg is gonig to receive new units in the first expansion. This entire argument is painfully stupid. I'm fairly certain Zerg will get new units in the Zerg expansion, and the same for Protoss. Just like every expansion that Blizzard has released for it's RTS games has given new units. Exactly...so wtf are you aguing?
Before Brood War, Starcraft was almost unplayable in a competitive sense. The same with Warcraft 3 before Frozen Throne. I'm not saying SC2 is like that, I think it's amazingly playable and so on, but I think that the game is far from finished. I think it's pretty damn near balanced, at least pretty damn close to Brood War's balance, and I think that, if you want more units or versatility, just wait for your expansion.
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On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg.
What does that have to do with anything? Sure, I may not know all the details about the race, but I can comment on what I've seen professional players do. Whether or not that applies to casual gamers is another topic entirely.
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On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg.
i play random(finished ~550 or something diamond). Z beeing my 2nd best race.
im not even argueing against the possibility(most Zs still expect to win with massing 1-2 units and aclicking into the enemy.) that Z might have issues. i just cant stand super biased nonsense posts.and when people complain about basic mechanic/style differences which are in the game for 12 years or say plain stupid/wrong stuff i can do nothing but facepalm irl.
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Zerg is by far the manliest race, it just needs some more options.
The only thing is disagree with as blizzard goes is the creep tumor nerf, by the time you have enough creep to actually be able to move your hydras around, all the hard counters for hydras are out as well. Im sure a lot of zerg players are left with the thoght " what the F@#k am I suppose to do to stop that shit" at times.
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On July 27 2010 05:10 MonkeyKungFu wrote:
Zerg is by far the manliest race, it just needs some more options.
The only thing is disagree with as blizzard goes is the creep tumor nerf, by the time you have enough creep to actually be able to move your hydras around, all the hard counters for hydras are out as well. Im sure a lot of zerg players are left with the thoght " what the F@#k am I suppose to do to stop that shit" at times.
i just added one queen in my builds just for creep spreading. 150 mins to counter a "big nerf" doesnt sound bad to me. esp since its also a nice defense&AA unit which also can be used on the next expo.
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On July 27 2010 05:03 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg. What does that have to do with anything? Sure, I may not know all the details about the race, but I can comment on what I've seen professional players do. Whether or not that applies to casual gamers is another topic entirely.
It has a lot to do with everything. I agree that you can comment on what you see, but the feel of many things coems down to objective timings rather than first-person perspective. As an example, when you watch a replay and see an overlord scouting a base, it looks straight-forward, but there's a lot of planning that goes on into making that happen that you can't "feel" unless you play the race.
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Fair enough. But it certainly doesn't invalidate my thoughts entirely.
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[/QUOTE]i just added one queen in my builds just for creep spreading. 150 mins to counter a "big nerf" doesnt sound bad to me. esp since its also a nice defense&AA unit which also can be used on the next expo.[/QUOTE]
Im well aware that you can make several queens, people did that long before the tumor time was doubled, but I still disagree =)
Was the creep too "powerfull" or were terran and protoss players in general too sloppy with getting their observers out to kill the creep tumors?
As in many other aspects they have been careful about nerfing things because it might not have been necessary, in this case, I think they should have waited and seen how it would evolve. To be honest, we have not seen many actively kill creep tumors in higher level of play either until recently
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On July 27 2010 05:13 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
i just added one queen in my builds just for creep spreading. 150 mins to counter a "big nerf" doesnt sound bad to me. esp since its also a nice defense&AA unit which also can be used on the next expo.
Im well aware that you can make several queens, people did that long before the tumor time was doubled, but I still disagree =)
Was the creep too "powerfull" or were terran and protoss players in general too sloppy with getting their observers out to kill the creep tumors?
As in many other aspects they have been careful about nerfing things because it might not have been necessary, in this case, I think they should have waited and seen how it would evolve. To be honest, we have not seen many actively kill creep tumors in higher level of play either until recently
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On July 27 2010 05:04 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg. i play random(finished ~550 or something diamond). Z beeing my 2nd best race. im not even argueing against the possibility(most Zs still expect to win with massing 1-2 units and aclicking into the enemy.) that Z might have issues. i just cant stand super biased nonsense posts.and when people complain about basic mechanic/style differences which are in the game for 12 years or say plain stupid/wrong stuff i can do nothing but facepalm irl.
I'd love to use more diverse unit compositions, but lack of options and gas restrictions prevent that. Roaches are used in a lot of compositions because they can act as a mineral dump. It's not realistic to go Hydra, Infestor, BroLord, Banaling.
Oppositely, Terran have a wide variety of unit-mixing that can be incorporated, making great unit compositions. To be honest, you can pick 3-4 random Terran units and in all liklihood, they'll synergize very well. There are many reasons for that, but two important ones are: Terran units are almost exclusively hard counters (every unit has a lot of bonus damage to specific armor types) and a lot of Terran units can target air (Zerg need to count on poorly-designed Corrupters, painfully-slow Hydra's, or ineffeictive-in-small-numbers Muta's for their AA).
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On July 27 2010 05:24 MonkeyKungFu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:13 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
i just added one queen in my builds just for creep spreading. 150 mins to counter a "big nerf" doesnt sound bad to me. esp since its also a nice defense&AA unit which also can be used on the next expo. Im well aware that you can make several queens, people did that long before the tumor time was doubled, but I still disagree =) Was the creep too "powerfull" or were terran and protoss players in general too sloppy with getting their observers out to kill the creep tumors? As in many other aspects they have been careful about nerfing things because it might not have been necessary, in this case, I think they should have waited and seen how it would evolve. To be honest, we have not seen many actively kill creep tumors in higher level of play either until recently
well if you really did a good job at using 2 tumors you could easily creep your way over to the enemy on close positions like lt 6vs3 or steppes.
and i rather have something a bit "underpowered"(i dont think it is) which can be compensated by a extra queen or two then something a bit "overpowered" ( i dont say it was) which has to be compensated by ravens/obs.
Oppositely, Terran have a wide variety of unit-mixing that can be incorporated, making great unit compositions. To be honest, you can pick 3-4 random Terran units and in all liklihood, they'll synergize very well. There are many reasons for that, but two important ones are: Terran units are almost exclusively hard counters (every unit has a lot of bonus damage to specific armor types) and a lot of Terran units can target air (Zerg need to count on poorly-designed Corrupters, painfully-slow Hydra's, or ineffeictive-in-small-numbers Muta's for their AA).
see thats the problem. you see evrything only from a Z point of view. "oh T has so many hardcounters!". yeah thats true. but that coin has 2 sides. you get countered just as easy as you counter. if your composition isnt spot on youll lose evrything else. while the Z army has lots of versatile units that are plain good in many aspects. like the hydra,roach or muta. T units often are good vs only one thing. while a hydra is good vs evrything but 1-2 things.
the problem most Zs have is that they try to beat a 200/200 upgraded well mixed army with roach/hydra or muta/x only. that doesnt work. once they realise that a) the specialised nature of the T army works both ways and b) Hive tech is super strong.
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On July 27 2010 05:25 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:04 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg. i play random(finished ~550 or something diamond). Z beeing my 2nd best race. im not even argueing against the possibility(most Zs still expect to win with massing 1-2 units and aclicking into the enemy.) that Z might have issues. i just cant stand super biased nonsense posts.and when people complain about basic mechanic/style differences which are in the game for 12 years or say plain stupid/wrong stuff i can do nothing but facepalm irl. I'd love to use more diverse unit compositions, but lack of options and gas restrictions prevent that. Roaches are used in a lot of compositions because they can act as a mineral dump. It's not realistic to go Hydra, Infestor, BroLord, Banaling. Oppositely, Terran have a wide variety of unit-mixing that can be incorporated, making great unit compositions. To be honest, you can pick 3-4 random Terran units and in all liklihood, they'll synergize very well. There are many reasons for that, but two important ones are: Terran units are almost exclusively hard counters (every unit has a lot of bonus damage to specific armor types) and a lot of Terran units can target air (Zerg need to count on poorly-designed Corrupters, painfully-slow Hydra's, or ineffeictive-in-small-numbers Muta's for their AA).
Terran units that can hit air: Marie, ghost, Thor.
Zerg Units that can hit air: Hydralisk, queen.
That means Terrran only has one more than Zerg.
If you include Air units,then that becomes five four, counting the terrible Battle Cruiser which is still only one more.
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On July 27 2010 05:30 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:25 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 05:04 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg. i play random(finished ~550 or something diamond). Z beeing my 2nd best race. im not even argueing against the possibility(most Zs still expect to win with massing 1-2 units and aclicking into the enemy.) that Z might have issues. i just cant stand super biased nonsense posts.and when people complain about basic mechanic/style differences which are in the game for 12 years or say plain stupid/wrong stuff i can do nothing but facepalm irl. I'd love to use more diverse unit compositions, but lack of options and gas restrictions prevent that. Roaches are used in a lot of compositions because they can act as a mineral dump. It's not realistic to go Hydra, Infestor, BroLord, Banaling. Oppositely, Terran have a wide variety of unit-mixing that can be incorporated, making great unit compositions. To be honest, you can pick 3-4 random Terran units and in all liklihood, they'll synergize very well. There are many reasons for that, but two important ones are: Terran units are almost exclusively hard counters (every unit has a lot of bonus damage to specific armor types) and a lot of Terran units can target air (Zerg need to count on poorly-designed Corrupters, painfully-slow Hydra's, or ineffeictive-in-small-numbers Muta's for their AA). Terran units that can hit air: Marie, ghost, Thor. Zerg Units that can hit air: Hydralisk, queen. That means Terrran only has one more than Zerg. If you include Air units,then that becomes five four, counting the terrible Battle Cruiser which is still only one more.
What battlecruiser is awesome.
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XD. It's air to air damage isn't nearly as good as it's air to ground. >.>
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On July 27 2010 05:30 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:25 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 05:04 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg. i play random(finished ~550 or something diamond). Z beeing my 2nd best race. im not even argueing against the possibility(most Zs still expect to win with massing 1-2 units and aclicking into the enemy.) that Z might have issues. i just cant stand super biased nonsense posts.and when people complain about basic mechanic/style differences which are in the game for 12 years or say plain stupid/wrong stuff i can do nothing but facepalm irl. I'd love to use more diverse unit compositions, but lack of options and gas restrictions prevent that. Roaches are used in a lot of compositions because they can act as a mineral dump. It's not realistic to go Hydra, Infestor, BroLord, Banaling. Oppositely, Terran have a wide variety of unit-mixing that can be incorporated, making great unit compositions. To be honest, you can pick 3-4 random Terran units and in all liklihood, they'll synergize very well. There are many reasons for that, but two important ones are: Terran units are almost exclusively hard counters (every unit has a lot of bonus damage to specific armor types) and a lot of Terran units can target air (Zerg need to count on poorly-designed Corrupters, painfully-slow Hydra's, or ineffeictive-in-small-numbers Muta's for their AA). Terran units that can hit air: Marie, ghost, Thor. Zerg Units that can hit air: Hydralisk, queen. That means Terrran only has one more than Zerg. If you include Air units,then that becomes five four, counting the terrible Battle Cruiser which is still only one more.
Not that I should even have to explain why your post is silly, but Queens cannot be used offesively (realistically), leaving only Hydra's, which is why you see so many boring Roach/Hydra compositions. Terran, oppositely, can do compositions like Marine/Tank/Hellion or Maurader/Thor. both of which need to be countered entirely differently. It's painfully simple why Terran appear more diverse in games...it's because they are more diverse.
And there's nothing wrong with them being diverse...it's as if terran players want to argue against simple facts in the hopes that no one else will see through their paper-thin, unfounded arguments.
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On July 27 2010 05:35 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:30 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:25 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 05:04 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg. i play random(finished ~550 or something diamond). Z beeing my 2nd best race. im not even argueing against the possibility(most Zs still expect to win with massing 1-2 units and aclicking into the enemy.) that Z might have issues. i just cant stand super biased nonsense posts.and when people complain about basic mechanic/style differences which are in the game for 12 years or say plain stupid/wrong stuff i can do nothing but facepalm irl. I'd love to use more diverse unit compositions, but lack of options and gas restrictions prevent that. Roaches are used in a lot of compositions because they can act as a mineral dump. It's not realistic to go Hydra, Infestor, BroLord, Banaling. Oppositely, Terran have a wide variety of unit-mixing that can be incorporated, making great unit compositions. To be honest, you can pick 3-4 random Terran units and in all liklihood, they'll synergize very well. There are many reasons for that, but two important ones are: Terran units are almost exclusively hard counters (every unit has a lot of bonus damage to specific armor types) and a lot of Terran units can target air (Zerg need to count on poorly-designed Corrupters, painfully-slow Hydra's, or ineffeictive-in-small-numbers Muta's for their AA). Terran units that can hit air: Marie, ghost, Thor. Zerg Units that can hit air: Hydralisk, queen. That means Terrran only has one more than Zerg. If you include Air units,then that becomes five four, counting the terrible Battle Cruiser which is still only one more. Not that I should even have to explain why your post is silly, but Queens cannot be used offesively (realistically), leaving only Hydra's, which is why you see so many boring Roach/Hydra compositions. Terran, oppositely, can do compositions like Marine/Tank/Hellion or Maurader/Thor. both of which need to be countered entirely differently. It's painfully simple why Terran appear more diverse in games...it's because they are more diverse. And there's nothing wrong with them being diverse...it's as if terran players want to argue against simple facts in the hopes that no one else will see through their paper-thin, unfounded arguments. Why can't queens? Sure, early game you don't have the production capacity, but late game? Why not?
Regardless, Terran is more diverse. . .because it has more units. That's literally it. Zerg will diversify with the expansion, I guarantee it.
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On July 27 2010 05:32 Saracen wrote:
What battlecruiser is awesome.
BCs aren't that great against Air target.
They deal 6 damages a shot to Air instead of the 13 damage a shot to ground.
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Ahout mech: although i do think it is hard to beat i know we can argue about map balance being the problem, but at the end of the day you are just agreeing that zvt is broken you just are blaming it on something else.
Mech aside, i think the matchup feels so hard for z because of the sheer amount of nearly unscoutable strategues all of which require a unique response to avoid falling way behind not to mention the amount of vulnerability zerg must submit to in order to take an advantage. Note i say unscoutable because of the wall off. I know it is possible to sac overlord but its not a sure thing and can often get you the info you need later than you would like.
I will list all the strats i am thinking about when i have to play zerg.
Early reaper.
Reaper bunker rush
Marine bunker rush
Early hellions into expand
Early hellions into more hellions
Thor drop
Hell8on maurader timing push
Marine hellion iming push
Banshees
Banshees with cloak
Thor.timing push
Tank play
If i make the wrong choice on what your hiding behind the wall off. i literally have no chance. You pick the harrass and if i play too safe i have no way to punish you with my defensive slow units that die to one tank on the ridge. I dont play safe enough and four hellions kills 10 or more drones.
If terran expects mutas and gets a thor. And the flthree to four turrets it takes to cover two bases (lol). The thor can be dropped or used to great effect against ground.
If zerg goes muta and terran has five rines and a thor your out 1000-1400 resources for nothing because they die like paper to terran anti air.
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On July 27 2010 05:37 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 05:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 05:30 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 05:25 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 05:04 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 05:00 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:58 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On July 27 2010 04:38 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:
[quote]
I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection. EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =] dont listen to him. hes argueing that slow ovi scouts are worthless .yeah evryone that did that since 10 years (including evry pro and sc2) obviously has no clue. evryone will tell you that sacing overlords is totally standart and recommended. if you dont already somewhat know whats going on from running 1-2 lings up his ramp or having a decently fast lair for a overseer intime. dont let him talk you out of smart plays just because in his world Z is the worst race evurr ! had to jump in... I do scout with slow Overlords and was not suggesting not to. This thread is painful. There's no chance any of the people arguing against Zerg being UP play Zerg. i play random(finished ~550 or something diamond). Z beeing my 2nd best race. im not even argueing against the possibility(most Zs still expect to win with massing 1-2 units and aclicking into the enemy.) that Z might have issues. i just cant stand super biased nonsense posts.and when people complain about basic mechanic/style differences which are in the game for 12 years or say plain stupid/wrong stuff i can do nothing but facepalm irl. I'd love to use more diverse unit compositions, but lack of options and gas restrictions prevent that. Roaches are used in a lot of compositions because they can act as a mineral dump. It's not realistic to go Hydra, Infestor, BroLord, Banaling. Oppositely, Terran have a wide variety of unit-mixing that can be incorporated, making great unit compositions. To be honest, you can pick 3-4 random Terran units and in all liklihood, they'll synergize very well. There are many reasons for that, but two important ones are: Terran units are almost exclusively hard counters (every unit has a lot of bonus damage to specific armor types) and a lot of Terran units can target air (Zerg need to count on poorly-designed Corrupters, painfully-slow Hydra's, or ineffeictive-in-small-numbers Muta's for their AA). Terran units that can hit air: Marie, ghost, Thor. Zerg Units that can hit air: Hydralisk, queen. That means Terrran only has one more than Zerg. If you include Air units,then that becomes five four, counting the terrible Battle Cruiser which is still only one more. Not that I should even have to explain why your post is silly, but Queens cannot be used offesively (realistically), leaving only Hydra's, which is why you see so many boring Roach/Hydra compositions. Terran, oppositely, can do compositions like Marine/Tank/Hellion or Maurader/Thor. both of which need to be countered entirely differently. It's painfully simple why Terran appear more diverse in games...it's because they are more diverse. And there's nothing wrong with them being diverse...it's as if terran players want to argue against simple facts in the hopes that no one else will see through their paper-thin, unfounded arguments. Why can't queens? Sure, early game you don't have the production capacity, but late game? Why not? Regardless, Terran is more diverse. . .because it has more units. That's literally it. Zerg will diversify with the expansion, I guarantee it.
We're simply not communicating effectively.
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I just think it's funny you're writing off zerg balance in a game that's just been released and are just saying deal with it, wait till next year to become as competitive as terran/toss.
Blizzard can easily balance the game with a patch or two. Why should anyone have to wait for an entirely new game to achieve balance?
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EPT
