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On July 27 2010 04:10 MythicalMage wrote:
Kinda. I feel that zerg CAN sacrifice their economy early on, get some control of the game, and then double expand or something. There are tons of options. As for defense, speedlings on creep move at the speed of light, so I don't REALLY see that as a concern. And you can look at Dimaga's games, as mentioned above for an example of early aggression.
Dimaga's play in the King of the Beta failed miserably for the most part, so why would anyone use that as a role model? And I agree that Zerg can gain early map control and expand faster than Terran or Protoss, but they're doing so in the dark. Expanding costs a lot of minerals, forcing you to delay tech. If Zerg fast expands and then has to deal with Hellions and Banshees shortly after, they're put at a big disadvantage since they're not able to use the larvae for drones anyway.
The point is fast expanding with no knowledge of what your opponent is doing is russian roulette.
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Why do you refere to Dimaga all the time? He lost pretty much all important games recently.
The biggest problem with zerg is simply their straight up fighting power in mid game. Many people argue that you need to nydus/burrow/drop blah....
But if the terra deathball attacks, you have exactly 2 choices:
- base trade
- fight head on
Whatever you choose, you'll be in a horrible position. Thats also why many zerg prefere a straight up macro game instead of fancy harassing styles, because you simply get crushed the moment your harassment fails, because you invested so much into burrow upgrades/mutas/nydus/drop.
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On July 27 2010 04:12 MythicalMage wrote:
But zerg has the most accessible, and arguably the cheapest scout in the overlord. Morph it into an overseer, and you can even stop their production for a time.
Terrans wall off because speedlings will literally end the game if they don't. The same can be said for Protoss. And if they don't wall well enough, a few banelings can be GG.
As I wrote in what you quoted, Zerg don't gain that scouting ability until T2 -- it's before that there's an issue. Also, I disagree about Speeding = gg if there's no wall-off. Players would be forced to make tighter bases with static defense in fear of mass zergling, which is a better game mechanic that making speedlings irrelivant.
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On July 27 2010 04:18 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:10 MythicalMage wrote:
Kinda. I feel that zerg CAN sacrifice their economy early on, get some control of the game, and then double expand or something. There are tons of options. As for defense, speedlings on creep move at the speed of light, so I don't REALLY see that as a concern. And you can look at Dimaga's games, as mentioned above for an example of early aggression. Dimaga's play in the King of the Beta failed miserably for the most part, so why would anyone use that as a role model? And I agree that Zerg can gain early map control and expand faster than Terran or Protoss, but they're doing so in the dark. Expanding costs a lot of minerals, forcing you to delay tech. If Zerg fast expands and then has to deal with Hellions and Banshees shortly after, they're put at a big disadvantage since they're not able to use the larvae for drones anyway. The point is fast expanding with no knowledge of what your opponent is doing is russian roulette.
So what it failed? I saw a game recently where LzGamer tried to fast expand and it failed. Does that mean that all Terran fast expands are bad? Of course not.
And I've already discussed scouting.
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On July 27 2010 04:05 MythicalMage wrote:
I don't follow much of Zerg play, but you can look at Dimaga's game in the Day9 tournament as an example of an early aggressive zerg. You very very rarely see mid-late game aggression from zerg as the focus is always on out econ-ing your opponent. Also, your snarkiness is unnecessary and unhelpful.
good example, I guess you mean his "totally getting schooled" aggression for a strong 0-2 in 20 mins against ITR? Or maybe the super versatile 0-2 against qxc, all thanks to zerg aggression? As a zerg you have to do damage if you're gonna be aggressive. Not like protoss or terran, where 2 zealots trade for 2 drones and your happy about the exchange. With mules and chronoboosted probes, you are falling far, far behind unless you do a shitton of damage with your early units. Sure, I've used the builds dimaga uses and I'm very open to doing baneling busts etc. I like being aggressive. Sometimes it even works, the early roaches for example, outright kills thorship rush. It is however pretty close to an allin. If you don't get into the terran base with the roaches you better type out, there is no coming back since you've been living off 16 drones until 5 mins into the game.
Edit: My biggest beef with this game atm is however the fact that out of my ground units exactly 2 can hit air. Queen and hydra? Blizzard seriously wants to make me fight air units with units who are slow as a reaver off creep? Thanks, that way a terran will never lose a medivac, ever as long as he won't be putting it in my base. At least give me my scourges back if my ground AA has to suck that much :S
And of course, that interview with the blizzard guy who said that "maybe terran units are too specialized, they might counter some things too hard". If my units were as specialized as the thor I would jump around in joy. You say that the thor is specialized at killing mutas? lucky me that it doesn't like demolish every ground unit I can field apart from lings and ultras (assuming possiblity for the fat ultras to make sure all of them hits).
To be honest, I'm really looking forward to play some again to try to see if I can come up with a way to beat a good terran, and I'm eagerly awaiting the first month or two of tournaments to see what my fellow zergs can come up with. My feeling right now however is that this matchup is damaged and is actually gonna get broken when terrans start to utilize their entire arsenal. Hopefully time will prove me wrong.
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On July 27 2010 04:20 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:12 MythicalMage wrote:
But zerg has the most accessible, and arguably the cheapest scout in the overlord. Morph it into an overseer, and you can even stop their production for a time.
Terrans wall off because speedlings will literally end the game if they don't. The same can be said for Protoss. And if they don't wall well enough, a few banelings can be GG.
As I wrote in what you quoted, Zerg don't gain that scouting ability until T2 -- it's before that there's an issue. Also, I disagree about Speeding = gg if there's no wall-off. Players would be forced to make tighter bases with static defense in fear of mass zergling, which is a better game mechanic that making speedlings irrelivant.
So you tech to lair before you get an overlord? Cool strategy. As for speedlings, I feel that once they deal significant damage, it at least equalizes the game. And the GG bit was more for banelings and so on.
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As I've said just because a player lost doesn't completely invalidate the build.
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On July 27 2010 04:05 MythicalMage wrote:
I don't follow much of Zerg play, but you can look at Dimaga's game in the Day9 tournament as an example of an early aggressive zerg. You very very rarely see mid-late game aggression from zerg as the focus is always on out econ-ing your opponent. Also, your snarkiness is unnecessary and unhelpful.
Dimaga vs Qxc game 1: Roach rush, fails horribly without any harassment
Dimaga vs Qxc game 2: Tries to defend against hellions, no harassment to speak of
Dimaga vs IntoTheRainbow game 1: Roach rush, fails without any harassment
Dimaga vs IntoTheRainbow game 1: Banshee harassment..
Dimaga vs Whitera: Woho! All in baneling against FE Protoss...
Give me the link to this early aggressive zerg replay please, it would make it much easier to find. I might be watching wrong tournament.
Dont use something as an example for how Z should play if it didnt work.
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On July 27 2010 04:23 eivind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:05 MythicalMage wrote:
I don't follow much of Zerg play, but you can look at Dimaga's game in the Day9 tournament as an example of an early aggressive zerg. You very very rarely see mid-late game aggression from zerg as the focus is always on out econ-ing your opponent. Also, your snarkiness is unnecessary and unhelpful. Dimaga vs Qxc game 1: Roach rush, fails horribly without any harassment Dimaga vs Qxc game 2: Tries to defend against hellions, no harassment to speak of Dimaga vs IntoTheRainbow game 1: Roach rush, fails without any harassment Dimaga vs IntoTheRainbow game 1: Banshee harassment.. Dimaga vs Whitera: Woho! All in baneling against FE Protoss... Give me the link to this early aggressive zerg replay please, it would make it much easier to find. I might be watching wrong tournament.
I'm not saying the same thing for three time in a row.
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On July 27 2010 04:22 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:20 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:12 MythicalMage wrote:
But zerg has the most accessible, and arguably the cheapest scout in the overlord. Morph it into an overseer, and you can even stop their production for a time.
Terrans wall off because speedlings will literally end the game if they don't. The same can be said for Protoss. And if they don't wall well enough, a few banelings can be GG.
As I wrote in what you quoted, Zerg don't gain that scouting ability until T2 -- it's before that there's an issue. Also, I disagree about Speeding = gg if there's no wall-off. Players would be forced to make tighter bases with static defense in fear of mass zergling, which is a better game mechanic that making speedlings irrelivant. So you tech to lair before you get an overlord? Cool strategy. As for speedlings, I feel that once they deal significant damage, it at least equalizes the game. And the GG bit was more for banelings and so on.
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg...
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Yes i would like to see it as well, because i can't think of anything other then an occasional all-in baneling bust / ling runby.
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On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg...
I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down.
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On July 27 2010 04:20 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:18 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:10 MythicalMage wrote:
Kinda. I feel that zerg CAN sacrifice their economy early on, get some control of the game, and then double expand or something. There are tons of options. As for defense, speedlings on creep move at the speed of light, so I don't REALLY see that as a concern. And you can look at Dimaga's games, as mentioned above for an example of early aggression. Dimaga's play in the King of the Beta failed miserably for the most part, so why would anyone use that as a role model? And I agree that Zerg can gain early map control and expand faster than Terran or Protoss, but they're doing so in the dark. Expanding costs a lot of minerals, forcing you to delay tech. If Zerg fast expands and then has to deal with Hellions and Banshees shortly after, they're put at a big disadvantage since they're not able to use the larvae for drones anyway. The point is fast expanding with no knowledge of what your opponent is doing is russian roulette. So what it failed? I saw a game recently where LzGamer tried to fast expand and it failed. Does that mean that all Terran fast expands are bad? Of course not. And I've already discussed scouting.
I wouldnt use a replay where something failed horribly as an example on how to play a race. This might confuse people.. 
Problem with overlord: They cost 100 minerals and 1 larva. Losing them hurts. If you try to scout with it against decent Terran you will lose one, thought sometimes it is worth it..
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Why bother discussing anything with MythicalMage when he admitted he doesn't know anything about zerg playstyle. He makes suggestions without knowing what he's talking about and you continue to reply to him?
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On July 27 2010 04:28 DoomFox wrote:
Why bother discussing anything with MythicalMage when he admitted he doesn't know anything about zerg playstyle. He makes suggestions without knowing what he's talking about and you continue to reply to him?
Where did I admit this? The core idea that Zerg can be aggressive is true, regardless of examples.
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On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down.
I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial...
You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal.
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On July 27 2010 04:30 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:28 DoomFox wrote:
Why bother discussing anything with MythicalMage when he admitted he doesn't know anything about zerg playstyle. He makes suggestions without knowing what he's talking about and you continue to reply to him? Where did I admit this? The core idea that Zerg can be aggressive is true, regardless of examples.
Just like the core idea of earth is flat is true without any proof?
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On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:22 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:20 Graven wrote:On July 27 2010 04:12 MythicalMage wrote:
But zerg has the most accessible, and arguably the cheapest scout in the overlord. Morph it into an overseer, and you can even stop their production for a time.
Terrans wall off because speedlings will literally end the game if they don't. The same can be said for Protoss. And if they don't wall well enough, a few banelings can be GG.
As I wrote in what you quoted, Zerg don't gain that scouting ability until T2 -- it's before that there's an issue. Also, I disagree about Speeding = gg if there's no wall-off. Players would be forced to make tighter bases with static defense in fear of mass zergling, which is a better game mechanic that making speedlings irrelivant. So you tech to lair before you get an overlord? Cool strategy. As for speedlings, I feel that once they deal significant damage, it at least equalizes the game. And the GG bit was more for banelings and so on. You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg...
Thats maybe true on some maps, but on most maps you can do it. Kulra ravine and blistering sand you can have an overlord looking over the terran choke all the time (which is plenty. A good zerg wont need to know more than wether its techlab or reactor to have an idea of whats going on). On steppes of war you can easily suicide an overlord in from either side even if they are slow, same with metalpolis. On lost temple you can watch the expansion choke at all time and ofc suicide from the back. Yes they will die if he gets vikings or phoenixes, but then you know that.
And ofc. you can always send a zergling to the other players choke to see his unit composition.
But last and not least, as soon as the wall of the terran or toss base is up, is the same time you wont be scouting some decent zerg with a worker due to good linx/queen micro.
Its just, many zergs forget to do those things, since you have to think about it in advance. Look at Idra's overlord placement, its soooo good. And he will constantly be sending 1 zergling in to see what you have at your choke.
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On July 27 2010 04:35 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 04:27 MythicalMage wrote:On July 27 2010 04:25 Graven wrote:
You cannot effectively scout a player with an Overlord that doesn't have the speed upgrade. I hate to make assumptions, but I'm guessing you don't play Zerg... I didn't say AN overlord. You can scout pretty effectively with two, in my experience. They can't have anti air units all over their base, and if they do, you can just push their front and so on. But, if I'm wrong, let me know. I haven't played zerg in a while, what with the beta being down. I'm not sure if you're trying to be difficult, but I'll remain cordial... You can use two Overlord's...hell you can use three to be even safer. However, they need to be put in place several minutes before (crossing the map with an unupgraded Overlord takes time) and you need to hope the Overlord about to reveal the needed info isn't killed first. 2-3 Marines kill an Overlord VERY quickly, so to throw 200 minerals, several minutes of positioning, and two larvae away, all for a CHANCE at reveallnig what your opponent is doing isn't ideal. Fair enough. Though, it's still not uncommon for the first hundred gas to go to lair, and if not the first, then the second hundred gas. It's one of the flaws in the game, sure. Just like protoss only has one means of detection.
EDIT: And I'm not trying to be difficult. =]
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On July 27 2010 04:37 Zinbiel wrote:
Just like the core idea of earth is flat is true without any proof?
If DIMAGA tried it, that means that it works at least some of the time. It's not like he's going into a big tournament looking to lose.
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EPT
