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Its not that Zerg is that bad. Its that it pales in comparison to a complete race like terran. If anything keep zerg the same and nerf the other races.
Terran simply has too many options. Hellion opener with reactor?? 3rax marine/marauder stim push? viking/dropship? thor drop? tank drop? preigniter? reaper? banshee? marauder/hellion push before spire? its the fact that a race has been given too many tools and effective counters for that said race have been drastically reduced. A free blockoff and the ability to open up all tech trees within a short time of the game starting. Combine that with clear hard counters (people who keep saying thor isnt a hard counter to muta are being ridiculous). The reason mech is so strong is that it features a very robust unit composition which contains clear hard counters to light air, light ground, armored ground It's silly. Simply put, it is too effective.
Zerg? not so much. This philosophy of giving a race murky counters and limited options is fine. However if that's the case then the rest of the races should be normalized as such.
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I am going to take the oposite stand and explain why I believe Zerg is not good, or better yet why Zerg is not as good as the other two races. In this arguement not only will I take into account what we have already seen today in the most recent tournament battles but also the inherent potential of development of the races in the game.
1) Zerg have a uni-dimensional development
Because each individual unit is enabled by building the coresponding tech structure, the tech paths of zerg are very linear. You get get Zerglings then Roaches the Hydras, pretty much in a straight line, thus making the advance in the tree pretty much predictible. Zerg will never be able to do stuff like: get a Tech Lab at the Barracks to get Marrauders, but pop a Reaper first for some harrass. Oh, factory is finished, switch the tech lab over for instant tank production. The ramifications for this are endless. (same example works for protoss very well with pretty much all tech buildings).
The fact that unit building structures have multiple units enabled at start give the other two races a much more unpredictible transition possibility which zerg lacks. Zerg will just enable 1 unit at a time. If you see Hydra Den, you know exactly what to expect and how soon its gonna come. All linear and limited play.
2) Zerg units lack versatility.
Both other races have harrass units that can bolster the main army - like banshees or void rays; support units that also enable elaborate tactics - Medivacs heal and can be used to drop, Sentries can use FF to split armies but also to block ramps defensively or offensively; upgrades which enhance the way a unit can be utilised: Blink Stalkers, Stim and Concussive Shell...
Zerg has none of that. All you get is: here, have this unit, it is good at that, use it that way. Roach burrow play is the only upgrade that might add some flavor, but it is very gimmicky in the first place (i.e. 1 scan and u lose). Look at the upgrades for Zerg: pretty much all of them spell: this unit is now faster, or has a better range or better armor... all in all uncreative.
Can there even be a comparison between the Blink for stalkers and the Hydra range upgrade?? The first spells "omg cool new possibilities" the second... "well, I guess my hydras will shoot farther now". How about an activated ability which increases Hydra range by 2 (from 6 to 8) for like 8-10 seconds... that would open some nice play...
Each zerg unit is good at its own role and that's it. Which pretty much means no room for extra creativity and cute play.
3) Zerg has the lowest micromanagement need
Every T and P unit can be greately enhanced by microing it around. Either because it has an ability to use or because of its design. A few examples:
Stalkers: high range, very fast can be used to pick off slower, lower range units like roaches or marines. Blink.
Sentries: FF, GS, Hallucination
Immortals: making them absorb the tank shots, immortal drops
pheonix: picking up stuff, moving shot to keep out of range of mutas etc
Marines: stim
Marrauders: concussive shell kite, stim
Viking: landing action
Hellion: harrass
Thor: Thor Drops
etc etc etc
Lets see how zerg has to micro: you get to move your mutas around (which with how ridiculous Missile Turrets and Thors are you cant even do cute Muta Micro as in BW), you get to move your lings around for some surrounds, eventually rearrange your army when sending it into battle and maybe some infestor play.
All because zerg units are pretty sluggish and bland. Hydras - all zerg makes those, what can they do... well, they can shoot. How do you micro them? well... you a-move... and retreat when it doesnt work.
How about... I dunno... make overlords spill creep while they move so you can create a trail of creep which can serve as a creep highway for your units by moving your overlord in front of your army... and you would need to make sure the ovie is always in front, and the units must keep up as the creep will wear off in time (just a wild thing out the top of my head.)
4) Zerg has very limited harrass options.
A game that is nice to watch has a ton of action. Nobody wants to see a 30 minute game where both players macro up to the final battle. The idea that Zerg is a "reactionary race" is just another word for crap race. It is simply poor game design to leave a race take all the pounding and repell harrass after harrass just to win in the end-game by out-macro-ing its oponent. It bores the players and it bores the viewers.
It limits creativity and meta-game progression. We've seen the countless ways Terrans can open and transition while keeping the pressure up on its oponent. It strenghtens the idea that the race has a deep undiscovered potential, it makes it worth exploring and expanding. In today's state, the zerg we see, will continue to fend off attacks and macro up for 10 more years. Nothing much will change because there is not much room for it.
With the new game mechanics that allow perfectly zergling-tight walls, and roaches which are an absolute piece of crap slow unit, zerg is pretty much of no threat early on. Rushing to Mutalisks? No problem, 2 Missile Turrets with their absurd damage and low cost and you are safe. Hydralisks? Well, let me just put this here tank on my ledge and play TvZ - "The Tower Defense"...
How about a disruption web like ability on those corruptors, or some sneakier way to break those wall-ins at the ramp, like burrowed roaches moving underneath buildings or cliffs, or some sort of zergling catapult that would be fun... I dunno, something
There is a reason why in chess, it is White who is almost always favored to win. Because it has the initiative. Because Black is the reactionary race... think about it.
5)Zerg cannot abuse Terrain
Zerg has absolutely no unit that can abuse cliffs, ramps, ledges, chokes and all other crazy stuff map-makers will put in their maps. Therefore map makers really have to be careful about the maps they make. Races cannot be balanced in function of a map, it will just never work.
What about the opposite? Huge flat maps with empty spaces? Well, zerg will have trouble on those too, as hellions can enter ur base with ease and protoss early pushes will be much harder to defend. Which means that other races do fine on different kinds of maps, it is only zerg who will suffer because of maps with funky terrain.
Where's our Lurker or other unit that can abuse ramps and chokes and stuff? gone.. but wait all is good we have the baneling....
Anyway, I might continue this later on.. but I think I made sufficient points to counter your arguement.
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On July 25 2010 06:16 Kvz wrote:
Its not that Zerg is that bad. Its that it pales in comparison to a complete race like terran. If anything keep zerg the same and nerf the other races.
Terran simply has too many options. Hellion opener with reactor?? 3rax marine/marauder stim push? viking/dropship? thor drop? tank drop? preigniter? reaper? banshee? marauder/hellion push before spire? its the fact that a race has been given too many tools and effective counters for that said race have been drastically reduced. A free blockoff and the ability to open up all tech trees within a short time of the game starting. Combine that with clear hard counters (people who keep saying thor isnt a hard counter to muta are being ridiculous). The reason mech is so strong is that it features a very robust unit composition which contains clear hard counters to light air, light ground, armored ground It's silly. Simply put, it is too effective.
Zerg? not so much. This philosophy of giving a race murky counters and limited options is fine. However if that's the case then the rest of the races should be normalized as such.
I think Kvz hit it on the head, except I don't think they should nerf the other races. I think Terran and Protoss are really fun. Zerg seems like the race that was brought in last and needs to balance to the other two (which I believe it was). I don't know what they should do honestly.
I don't feel that zerg is underpowered or bad. But they are very frustrating to play sometimes. Terran and Protoss both can field armies of doom as I like to call it. Basically an army that you cannot take head on without heavy casualties. Think anything + thor, or anything + colossus (or mech, an army you pretty much can't take head on at all). As zerg your recourse against armies like that is pretty limited. Before they nerfed NP to oblivion infestors were pretty good against thors/colossi, but well that was before. Now you really have very little options against armies of doom. You do have options, it just feels very pidgeonholed. Think about your response to thor marine. Thor marauder. Colossus lot stalker is a personal favorite. Your best recourse against lot stalker is terrible against colossus. Throw in immortals and sentries for maximum excitement. You better have creep and some nice micro to beat their a move army.
Mobility. Just go around the army. Works but it is difficult. And what if the Terran player decides to just take his army to your base anyway? Well unless your mobile army kills his base faster than his army of doom kills yours, you are going to lose that fight.
I want to point out again that I think mobility CAN win against mech and I'm not saying you cannot beat these armies. But it is FRUSTRATING. You win by running away? You just have to give up any base that this army decides to attack, because you're the mobile race? I would much rather have an army that can't be beaten head on, or heaven forbid an army that can beat such an army.
Next Mutalisks. Mutalisks are awesome, but a terran just has to get 2-3 thors to ruin your day. Thors don't just beat mutas, they annihilate them. 3 Thors will kill x number of mins/gas/supply in the blink of an eye. They are so bad against Thors you can't even bring them to the fight. Even arriving late, the Thors will instantly target them and disintegrate. No matter how you shake it, no matter how important it is for balance, this is really really frustrating. I can't think of any other unit that shuts down another unit so hard. At least templar and infestors have to use energy and are really fragile. Maybe hellions in sufficient number against anything light (but let's be honest, losing 20 zerglings is a far cry from losing 20 mutalisks). /shrug
And lastly, although I shouldn't have saved this for last, I have been talking in extremes even though I didn't mean it. I recognize that ultralisks and brood lords are both solid units and can make and break armies of doom. But they are also both pretty high tech and generally, from what I've seen, both T and P can field their doom armies well before ultras or BLs appear. If you actually make it to Hive tech then I think Zerg are fine. It's that Lair - Hive area where they are really frustrating, and also in that area where many games seem to be decided.
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Zerg just need some much needed TLC...
Blizzard need to knock some heads together and tell the SC2 team to get creative, ambitious and think of ways to make Zerg interesting and unique...
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On July 25 2010 06:53 okrane wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I am going to take the oposite stand and explain why I believe Zerg is not good, or better yet why Zerg is not as good as the other two races. In this arguement not only will I take into account what we have already seen today in the most recent tournament battles but also the inherent potential of development of the races in the game.
1) Zerg have a uni-dimensional development
Because each individual unit is enabled by building the coresponding tech structure, the tech paths of zerg are very linear. You get get Zerglings then Roaches the Hydras, pretty much in a straight line, thus making the advance in the tree pretty much predictible. Zerg will never be able to do stuff like: get a Tech Lab at the Barracks to get Marrauders, but pop a Reaper first for some harrass. Oh, factory is finished, switch the tech lab over for instant tank production. The ramifications for this are endless. (same example works for protoss very well with pretty much all tech buildings).
The fact that unit building structures have multiple units enabled at start give the other two races a much more unpredictible transition possibility which zerg lacks. Zerg will just enable 1 unit at a time. If you see Hydra Den, you know exactly what to expect and how soon its gonna come. All linear and limited play.
2) Zerg units lack versatility.
Both other races have harrass units that can bolster the main army - like banshees or void rays; support units that also enable elaborate tactics - Medivacs heal and can be used to drop, Sentries can use FF to split armies but also to block ramps defensively or offensively; upgrades which enhance the way a unit can be utilised: Blink Stalkers, Stim and Concussive Shell...
Zerg has none of that. All you get is: here, have this unit, it is good at that, use it that way. Roach burrow play is the only upgrade that might add some flavor, but it is very gimmicky in the first place (i.e. 1 scan and u lose). Look at the upgrades for Zerg: pretty much all of them spell: this unit is now faster, or has a better range or better armor... all in all uncreative.
Can there even be a comparison between the Blink for stalkers and the Hydra range upgrade?? The first spells "omg cool new possibilities" the second... "well, I guess my hydras will shoot farther now". How about an activated ability which increases Hydra range by 2 (from 6 to 8) for like 8-10 seconds... that would open some nice play...
Each zerg unit is good at its own role and that's it. Which pretty much means no room for extra creativity and cute play.
3) Zerg has the lowest micromanagement need
Every T and P unit can be greately enhanced by microing it around. Either because it has an ability to use or because of its design. A few examples:
Stalkers: high range, very fast can be used to pick off slower, lower range units like roaches or marines. Blink.
Sentries: FF, GS, Hallucination
Immortals: making them absorb the tank shots, immortal drops
pheonix: picking up stuff, moving shot to keep out of range of mutas etc
Marines: stim
Marrauders: concussive shell kite, stim
Viking: landing action
Hellion: harrass
Thor: Thor Drops
etc etc etc
Lets see how zerg has to micro: you get to move your mutas around (which with how ridiculous Missile Turrets and Thors are you cant even do cute Muta Micro as in BW), you get to move your lings around for some surrounds, eventually rearrange your army when sending it into battle and maybe some infestor play.
All because zerg units are pretty sluggish and bland. Hydras - all zerg makes those, what can they do... well, they can shoot. How do you micro them? well... you a-move... and retreat when it doesnt work.
How about... I dunno... make overlords spill creep while they move so you can create a trail of creep which can serve as a creep highway for your units by moving your overlord in front of your army... and you would need to make sure the ovie is always in front, and the units must keep up as the creep will wear off in time (just a wild thing out the top of my head.)
4) Zerg has very limited harrass options.
A game that is nice to watch has a ton of action. Nobody wants to see a 30 minute game where both players macro up to the final battle. The idea that Zerg is a "reactionary race" is just another word for crap race. It is simply poor game design to leave a race take all the pounding and repell harrass after harrass just to win in the end-game by out-macro-ing its oponent. It bores the players and it bores the viewers.
It limits creativity and meta-game progression. We've seen the countless ways Terrans can open and transition while keeping the pressure up on its oponent. It strenghtens the idea that the race has a deep undiscovered potential, it makes it worth exploring and expanding. In today's state, the zerg we see, will continue to fend off attacks and macro up for 10 more years. Nothing much will change because there is not much room for it.
With the new game mechanics that allow perfectly zergling-tight walls, and roaches which are an absolute piece of crap slow unit, zerg is pretty much of no threat early on. Rushing to Mutalisks? No problem, 2 Missile Turrets with their absurd damage and low cost and you are safe. Hydralisks? Well, let me just put this here tank on my ledge and play TvZ - "The Tower Defense"...
How about a disruption web like ability on those corruptors, or some sneakier way to break those wall-ins at the ramp, like burrowed roaches moving underneath buildings or cliffs, or some sort of zergling catapult that would be fun... I dunno, something
There is a reason why in chess, it is White who is almost always favored to win. Because it has the initiative. Because Black is the reactionary race... think about it.
5)Zerg cannot abuse Terrain
Zerg has absolutely no unit that can abuse cliffs, ramps, ledges, chokes and all other crazy stuff map-makers will put in their maps. Therefore map makers really have to be careful about the maps they make. Races cannot be balanced in function of a map, it will just never work.
What about the opposite? Huge flat maps with empty spaces? Well, zerg will have trouble on those too, as hellions can enter ur base with ease and protoss early pushes will be much harder to defend. Which means that other races do fine on different kinds of maps, it is only zerg who will suffer because of maps with funky terrain.
Where's our Lurker or other unit that can abuse ramps and chokes and stuff? gone.. but wait all is good we have the baneling....
Anyway, I might continue this later on.. but I think I made sufficient points to counter your arguement.
Hit the nail on the head with pretty much all these points right there.
But of course Terran needs its easy wins...
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I've seen some posts venerating terran as the "manliest race to play" but it is actually the zerg, since the latter demands the most skill than the other two races. It'll be nice to hear from pro Korean zergs their insight on the race as a whole.
Here are some ideas to spice up zerg (don't take it too seriously lol)
Zergling Metabolic Boost - also make it an activate ability similar to Blink which allow zerglings to "glide down" from cliffs.
Makes use of those tiny wings they get from the upgrade, Blizz can make them open up in a span NOT make them flap though, it would look silly lol. Managing and separating your melee units from the ranged will be much easier.
Baneling Centrifugal Hooks - passively allow banelings to "Climb/Roll up" cliffs but at a slower move speed.
Makes sense if you ponder it, those hooks aren't just fit for horizontal movement. This opens up a new avenue for harass and make players actually research Hooks and morph more blings. Punishes players who "turtle it out" and not being vigilant enough, also provides zerg players an edge or chance to dictate the pace of the game.
Roach New Skill - an ability which enables roaches to emit a noxious gas which cling to their bodies and blocks the sight of enemies similar to smoke/tree sight obstruction mechanism, which of course does not affect friendly units and yours. This might as well serve as a buff to compensate their 2 supply count now.
Roaches then become a better tank with this skill, imagine a moving ball of "trees/smoke" which gradually position themselves in a perfect line and allow your hydras to safely snipe from their back. C'mon roaches here on earth are "dirty" lol, emitting green gas is not farfetched.
Overseer New Spell - in lieu of Dark Swarm, overseers can cast a similar cloud towards a target area and every 'ranged' unit under its cover will have their attack range reduced by let's say 40%.
This can be a potential remedy for Tanks/Thors obliterating your ball and also abuses their slow mobility, Colossi are not affected though since they are damn tall lol.
Corruptor Corruption - make it corrupt a target caster's energy also, which prevents them from casting spells.
Counters HTs, Medivacs, Raven, Ghosts and so on.. Gives the corruptor more "utility" not just destroy massive units.
Queen possible New Spell (I call it "the Swarm!") - a channeling spell like Infestor NP which "buffs" every unit nearby. Buffed units are given +1 damage for every other similar zerg unit of the "same species/strand" attacking the buffed unit's primary target, bonus damage caps at +3.
Scenario: 3 zerglings attacking a command center each dealing a base damage of 5, cast this skill and every zergling will get +2 damage because of his other two zergling companions. This pushes players to try "offensive queen play" making use of those extra queens you morphed at T1 to defend your base. Works wonders with Zerglings, Mutas, BROODLINGS, Hydras and more!
just my 2 cents
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If Zerg were so good, there wouldn't need to be a thread on the subject in the first place.
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Is it me or is every air unit or anti air unit a counter to the mutalisk. I mean I'm just going through the units and what they're good against and everything is good against mutalisk. I mean are mutas really that good that you have to give each race 6 different viable options against them?
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On July 25 2010 06:16 Kvz wrote:
Its not that Zerg is that bad. Its that it pales in comparison to a complete race like terran. If anything keep zerg the same and nerf the other races.
Terran simply has too many options. Hellion opener with reactor?? 3rax marine/marauder stim push? viking/dropship? thor drop? tank drop? preigniter? reaper? banshee? marauder/hellion push before spire? its the fact that a race has been given too many tools and effective counters for that said race have been drastically reduced. A free blockoff and the ability to open up all tech trees within a short time of the game starting. Combine that with clear hard counters (people who keep saying thor isnt a hard counter to muta are being ridiculous). The reason mech is so strong is that it features a very robust unit composition which contains clear hard counters to light air, light ground, armored ground It's silly. Simply put, it is too effective.
Zerg? not so much. This philosophy of giving a race murky counters and limited options is fine. However if that's the case then the rest of the races should be normalized as such.
I think there is truth in this. Terran simply has too many stupidly good units, to the point where you could pick a composition of 3 or 4 random Terran units and it is probably good enough to deal with everything.
I mean, for AA they have Marines, Stimmed Marines, Vikings (huge range and mobility), and Thors (extreme durability, long range, AoE, and always backed up by marines). Thors are so strong that you only need ONE to shut down Muta harass, thus shutting off an entire tech tree for your opponent. Just pick one!
The issue of them having so many viable openings is also a problem, since they're extremely hard to scout. And if his cheese fails, he can always mass repair behind his wall and survive. In PvT, for example, you live in a constant state of fear because you don't know if he is going to go mech (strong mid-to-late game), open up fast Reaper (terrifyingly strong early game), go bioball and rush to EMP (scary strong timing push with stim and EMP that is very hard to survive), or hell, just wall off and go 3rax marine timing push for a WTF win. Or hell, forget to get enough AA and a detector and BAM, cloaking flying DT in your base (Banshees).
Then their MULES (guaranteed flood of minerals that take up zero pop) and extremely strong defensive units behind a wall (1 siege tank behind the wall shuts down any kind of early-mid aggression) guarantees they have the ability to sit in their base and remain technologically flexible. They can switch add-ons for instant timing pushes, such as dropping a factory on a Reactor and pumping Hellions to punish a Zerg.
They are extremely mobile, almost always having dropships as a part of their build (now that they double as medics). They have the almost exclusive ability to abuse cliffs, to the point where some maps (like LT, DO, or Kulas) make non-Terran players groan when they see PvT/ZvT on the loading screen.
Terran has too much good shit that synergizes too well together. A lot of people say that "then they should buff the other races, not nerf Terran" but that simply isn't true- a game in which everything works would just be a mess, and timing pushes, subtlety, and diversity would break down entirely. We need units with well-defined roles that synergize well with a select few other units, outside of gimmicky creative usage, so that there can be a certain amount of reliability and predictability.
In BW races took a while to build up to things. But for Terran in SC2, simply getting something instantly shuts down a window of time for their opponent: for example, getting a Thor (on top of a few Marines) instantly invalidates Muta harass against 1 or 2 bases (compare this to building up Marine+Medic ctrl groups in BW, or slowly massing Goliaths off of 3+ factories), and getting a Siege Tank behind a wall instantly negates any kind of ground aggression by your opponent. Other races can't do that.
/bitching over. Just keep in mind that there is a reason most games against Terran either end in some crazy cheese by the non-Terran, or are long, drawn out macro games where the non-Terran player struggles to find a unit composition to beat Terran's anti-everything blobs. Once pro Koreans switch to SC2, Terran is going to appear incredibly imbalanced.
And for the record, I think that ZvP is mostly fine, since Corruptors exist as a counter to Colossi. ZvT feels like ZvP with cliff abuse, range 13 Colossi, and the complete impossibility of using air units. It really makes me want to hang myself.
My solution for all of this is pretty simple. Nerf the shit out of Thor AA capabilities, make Overlord speed 50/50 again, let Roaches burrow under buildings, and give Hellions a gas cost so they aren't extremely-effective units that the Terran can afford to throw away willy-nilly. None of these changes particularly affect TvP but would make ZvT waaaaaaaaay better. I think that lowering the energy cost of Corruption might be a good idea, too, so that Zerg players can try to slow their opponent's teching, giving them a bit of time to react and forcing their opponent to defend against it.
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Actually I believe it would be in the best interest of the game if all races felt and behaved like Terran. Keep in mind that this is a game made in 2010, it must be worthy of such thing.
Depth and complexity is what will keep this game alive and I feel they have succeeded in adding that for at least 1 race.
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On July 25 2010 06:53 okrane wrote:
...Hydralisks? Well, let me just put this here tank on my ledge and play TvZ - "The Tower Defense"...
i actualy lol'd hard on this one, it just made my day b/c it happens so often
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Look it just comes down to tanks. Sure thors kill muta, but they also cost 300 gas each, and 1 thor loses to 4 muta (400 gas). Vikings cant effectivly deal with muta alone (with backup they do really well). So all in all I think the air war is working out well. Its the ground war that really destroys zerg. Nothing can kill the tanks on the ground (before T3 for zerg), cost for cost, given any kind of decent backup for the tank. That is a problem. Now tanks in TvP are fine, immortals, blinking stalkers, fast charge lots, all effective counters to the tank. So I think the tank needs to be changed, not so it isnt good, but just so that it has some kind of zerg unit before T3 that can deal with it. Without unbalancing it for TvP play. I think the key is reducing the splash, but increesing the damage. Lower splash, means its less effective in TvZ, but higher damage means its still as effective in TvP. Effectivly allowing the roach to be a stronger counter against mek. This would force more marauder/tank/thor allowing muta to come back into the play (now that thier will be fewer thors/marines), as well as allowing roach to beat a player only going for marines and tanks (if you play smart).
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On July 25 2010 16:34 obsid wrote:
Look it just comes down to tanks. Sure thors kill muta, but they also cost 300 gas each,
hm, last I knew it was 300min/200 gas? And yes, 4 Mutas can kill 1 Thor, but of course, the thor just sits there, and the zerg has to dance around with his mutas spreading them out like theres no tomorrow (and there isnt, most of the time).
What bugs me is the huge range actually.. same thing on vikings as well, heck, most terran units. Why do they have this huge range advantage? Yeah, sure, Thor are "immobile" (they actually move fast enough imo), but what does this matter when they dont need to move, due to their huge range 
And please, get rid of that 12 secs duration on NP.. Make it at least 30 secs
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On July 25 2010 16:34 obsid wrote:
Look it just comes down to tanks. Sure thors kill muta, but they also cost 300 gas each, and 1 thor loses to 4 muta (400 gas). Vikings cant effectivly deal with muta alone (with backup they do really well). So all in all I think the air war is working out well. Its the ground war that really destroys zerg. Nothing can kill the tanks on the ground (before T3 for zerg), cost for cost, given any kind of decent backup for the tank. That is a problem. Now tanks in TvP are fine, immortals, blinking stalkers, fast charge lots, all effective counters to the tank. So I think the tank needs to be changed, not so it isnt good, but just so that it has some kind of zerg unit before T3 that can deal with it. Without unbalancing it for TvP play. I think the key is reducing the splash, but increesing the damage. Lower splash, means its less effective in TvZ, but higher damage means its still as effective in TvP. Effectivly allowing the roach to be a stronger counter against mek. This would force more marauder/tank/thor allowing muta to come back into the play (now that thier will be fewer thors/marines), as well as allowing roach to beat a player only going for marines and tanks (if you play smart).
Blizz won't nerf tanks, and Terran players will scream bloody murder.
Keep in mind: Mutas counter tanks. If we take out the obnoxious doomsday anti air abilities of the Thor, we'll have options to keep tanks down.
Corruptors might need a tiny boost though, otherwise he can transition into mass Viking and win (look at TLO vs Sen in EU vs Asia).
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the a-move-faceroll terran requires way too much micro/stars-aligning to defeat for this matchup to be balanced.
the stupid target priority with the thor doesnt help. if ur going to make the thor kill muta in a few hits, make the terran player manually target your muta. Having the thor auto-shoot your muta the second they are within half a screen away is ridiculously stupid. At least requiring manual targeting would allow the zerg to send in ground forces first, thors attack them, then use that opportunity to sweep in with muta to take the thors out.
or make corruptors attack thors.
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Having played zerg all through beta, and watched a ton of replays/casts along the way, I'm left with the feeling that zerg is "unfinished" or "unrefined" more than anything. Not particularly "bad" or "weaker", just that they didn't really take time to add interesting and useful features to zerg especially the end-game units. Other than the +1/2/3 upgrades, which apply to all races and in most cases, entire classes of units:
One example -- brood lords. A nice, powerful, albeit expensive unit, but with no real upgrades available (melee upgrades apply to the broodlings only). There's no upgrade for more broodlings, or faster flying, or really anything else. They do one thing -- lumber around the map slowly, and hope that their player has provided them with some fighter cover to fend off enemy AA (think B-17s without 50 cal turrets). No spell casting whatsoever, just A-move and then micro away from anti-air. Terran battle cruisers have anti-ground and anti-air, along with the Yamato cannon for burst damage. Carriers have upgrades for extra zip-around-thingies (the name escapes me -- never lasted long enough playing protoss to get carriers).
Ultralisk -- really, really boring. Terrible pathing, nothing to do except mass up, get the standard +2 upgrade, and go bash stuff. Now they can break forcefields (assuming they can reach them). Special ability -- headbutt a building. Not very fun. Trying to manuever is the entirety of their micro potential.
Corruptor -- biggest disappointment in the zerg army. Corruption spell is probably worth spamming but battles happen too fast to know if it's making a difference, and there's nothing else to do with their energy. Other than melting Collossus, very underwhelming. When I have them in a late game army it's basically for protecting my brood lords and then morphing when gas or food count permits. Still can't figure out why Collossus is tall enough for corruptors to attack, but Thors aren't. I know they shrunk the Thor, but they're still pretty big.
Infestor -- the one possible bright spot, after a neural parasite upgrade they're somewhat flexible. Still squishy as hell, but I didn't have much time to experiment with casting while burrowed. The 12 second NP timer was probably necessary but greatly diminished the fear factor for the infestor.
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On July 26 2010 03:18 starcat wrote:
the a-move-faceroll terran requires way too much micro/stars-aligning to defeat for this matchup to be balanced.
the stupid target priority with the thor doesnt help. if ur going to make the thor kill muta in a few hits, make the terran player manually target your muta. Having the thor auto-shoot your muta the second they are within half a screen away is ridiculously stupid. At least requiring manual targeting would allow the zerg to send in ground forces first, thors attack them, then use that opportunity to sweep in with muta to take the thors out.
or make corruptors attack thors.
I've thought about this as a solution, but I dislike it for a few reasons:
1) An anti-air unit attacking an anti-air unit is silly
2) Corruptors serve no purpose except killing the Thors (they aren't cost efficient against Vikings) which leaves you with a bunch of useless units (until T3.5, anyway, which might as well be forever)
3) Thors still rape Mutas and are still capable of forming a nuclear-anti-air critical mass.
The cold fact is that Terran DOESN'T NEED the Thor as an anti-air unit. T already has stimmed Marines, Vikings, Raven HSM, very strong Turrets, friggin EARLY WARNING RADAR SYSTEMS, and BCs (lategame).
If Terran wants to be able to annihilate everything in the air, they should have to build up to it by making loads of Vikings - which can actually be done quickly thanks to Reactors. But it is absurd, and detrimental to the timings of the matchup, to have Mutas be completely invalidated the second a Thor pops out (and Terran players have mastered their Thor timing).
Zerg has no timing push in the game. They just have to survive pressure upon pressure and push after push, fend off endless harass, and STILL outmacro their opponent long enough to bludgeon them to death with good positioning, better micro, and greater numbers.
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On July 26 2010 03:28 jester121 wrote:
Corruptor -- biggest disappointment in the zerg army. Corruption spell is probably worth spamming but battles happen too fast to know if it's making a difference, and there's nothing else to do with their energy.
I agree so much on the corruptor. It's the worst designed AA unit. Just look at the phoenix and the viking: their are just unique.
Blizzard did something unique but totally crazy: in the early stages of the game, the corruption (mind controling units) was the core of the corruptor. Ok it was impossible to let something like that in the beta.
It seems like plan B was "let's just put an a+click unit and we will add a corrupt thing which has no role in their anti air role" (the first version of corruption in the beta).
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zerg are the best because mutalisks can fly in space by flapping their wings.
Too cool to even obey the laws of physics.
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On July 25 2010 06:53 okrane wrote:
5)Zerg cannot abuse Terrain
Zerg has absolutely no unit that can abuse cliffs, ramps, ledges, chokes and all other crazy stuff map-makers will put in their maps.
What about Guardians? I mean... Brood lors  They have long range, can withstand lots of damage and you can do some terrain harass like one would with carriers .
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EPT
