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Mechanics may be harder, but not by a lot as there are balancing issues that make it easier such as unit production. Honestly, just give me a way to put early pressure on my opponent that isn't an all in strategy and I would be happy. It is so incredibly easy to block your incredibly small ramps AND Zerg is the only race that doesn't have a unit that can abuse Terrain.
Just one of these tweaks would help. Change the map pool, let me upgrade Roach speed right away or even moving burrow back to hatchery tech would actually help a lot. Now I can hide lings outside your base for a surprise attack when you move out giving me a better shot at early map control or running through your blockade. It is just SO easy to sit back and play D versus Zerg for both Terran and Protoss.
Also, in SC1, when a Zerg took an FE, he had a significant advantage if his opponent didn't expand soon after or hit his economy. Now, an FE just barely keeps a Zerg above his opponent. Zerg are often forced to gamble on an expansion just to keep even with the drone count and that just doesn't feel quite right to me.
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Playing SC1 Zerg, they seem infinitely more massive. Just far more of a swarm.
150/200 on SC1 seems 2X larger than 200/200 on SC2.
That aside, I like the Units a lot... good artwork... even the sound has greatly improved. Just not the same swarm that is going to overwhelm you with ridiculous 4 to 1 numbers like in SC1. Seems like, in terms of population, they are on almost equal footing now with Protoss and Terran.
Mechanically, and strategically, though... I have the most respect for Zerg players. I could not play Zerg to the level that I could fake Terran or Protoss. I am sure of that. So Kudos to you guys.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
omg that Haypro beat THE STERLORK!!! Then that map must have truly must be broken
and omg omg that QXC beat Dimaga, Then TVZ must be broken.
This is what you sound like.
Can someone please tell me how he got 3k posts.
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I doubt you'll reach 500 if every post is a flame. Not responding to your ridiculous bolded nonsense.
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On July 23 2010 12:53 jalstar wrote:+ Show Spoiler +qxc just beat Dimaga so that's a sign something is definitely wrong with TvZ Show nested quote +Are we still arguing this. You are putting words in my mouth. I SAID mechanics is simplified not that it does not exist. And if you think managing low energy is hard then it is pointless talking to you.
ARE you seriously saying the that MBS and unlimited unit selection doesn't make things simpler in terms of mechanics? Zerg mechanics are still harder than Terran and Protoss. You're not thinking relatively.
Crazy talk. Zerg mechanics are incredibly simple / easy. Terran is by far the hardest mechanics wise. I don't think Z is easier to play, but mechanics wise they are.
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On July 23 2010 10:01 Calamity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 08:56 Antpile wrote:On July 22 2010 07:11 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Tech Switches
Unlike other races where you need to build a whole new production facility to make a new set of units such as a factory a stargate, the zerg only needs to wait on a single tech building and then every single hatch/lair/hive can produce that unit.
I can't agree with this. Terrans generally have at least 1 of each of their unit producers already down. This allows them extreme versatility in army make up. If terran decides to tech switch all they need is to simultaneously throw down a couple more unit producers or to build a reactor or two depending on what they are switching to. This can be done just as quickly as a zerg tech switch. I think zerg tech switches better than protoss, but protoss balances this with a very strong set of gateway units that can defend against almost any threat that they can spawn anywhere and reinforce very quickly. Zerg has many mechanics that still have not been used to their fullest: - Larva Injection (yes pros still mess this up)
- Transfusion strategies
- Contamination
- Nydus Networks both offensively and defensively
So until this game is released and players get the time to REALLY get their hands on zerg and play with it and experiment then I don't think it's right to really be commenting on how zerg is broken it doesn't work yada yada. This argument isn't logical. If the problem with Zerg is that people haven't gotten enough time with them yet to perfect Zerg play, then the same point goes for the other races. Following that logic, as players get the time to improve their zerg play, Terran and 'Toss play will improve right along with it leaving them all in the same place they are now at any point along the timeline. Also, if any race requires "much more focus and apm" to compete than the other 2, that race is by definition underpowered. Even Blizzard states that they consider a certain build or strategy over powered when it easier to perform than it is to counter. If zerg requires more focus and apm to compete than the other two races, then they are by definition underpowered. By stating that zerg takes more work to come out victorious is the exact same thing as saying: when two players of equal skill meet, the zerg will always lose. For tech switching, you need to come up with the right definition for "tech switch" in the first place". If tech switch is being able to make one unit now, then a different one in a few seconds, Terran no doubt great at tech switching. A rax can give you 4 different units to make if you have a tech lab, a factory gives you 3 with a tech lab, and a starport gives you 5 with a tech lab, all of which can trade reactors or tech labs with other unit producing structures. If tech switching means being able to make one type of units IN MASS, and another different type of unit IN MASS, zerg has the advantage. Just by having the tech structure, a zerg can build a bunch of mutas, then hit you hard with a bunch of lings, then go mass roaches with mutas in late game. Not to mention with this ability, zergs and jump from massing T1, T2, and T3 units if they have the tech structures. If a Terran were to go bio and try to go into mech, he'd have 5 - 6 raxs that would be useless and maybe 1 or 2 factories which build thors and tanks extremely slow. As for your second point about how zerg players should progress equally with Terran and Protoss players, well if people are getting mad about how mech is OP and how Collosi fry their hydras and lings too quickly, or how Terran is the best race and Zergs suck, less people will play zerg and zerg strategies and tactics will develop slower as well. But logically, I understand you're point and if two people of equal skill fight, the Zerg and his opponent should have a 50/50 chance of winning. It's no doubt that Starcraft 2 still needs some tweaking. Starcraft: Brood War took about 10 years to to become as balanced as it is now, and a great game.
My notion of what a tech switch is is producing a unit (ex ling) and the opponent bringing out their tech (obviously strong against ling) and you switch to producing the unit that beats their composition; For example, Z builds a Roach based army and sees immortals and tech switches to hydras or w/e (can be after a game or can be through scouting and showing your suprise tech before the game).
Examples of play from P and T that are strong plays in general are 4 gate w/ gas and 1/1/1 build. The strongest thing that Z has to compare is 13gas 14 pool into quick hatch and heavily out macro the opponent. The 4 gate and the 1/1/1 are going to have better timing attacks and will lead up to an army composition that is stronger in the late game as well. Zergs best play right now is probably 2 hatch muta because it fights P and T in ways that are subtle (making them turtle) but unless the zerg completely outplays the opp their army will be worse. Another thing that has an impact on the game is T/P have an easy way of walling off where Z doesn't really have a way. This means that Z should be the aggressor but their best gameplan is being macro oriented (the 2 don't have much of an affinity).
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On July 23 2010 10:51 jalstar wrote:
Basically, this thread is pointless, since Gold/Plat players complaining about how hard and therefore imba Zerg is is about as pointless as C/D terrans in BW saying Terran is impossible to win with.
If IdrA and Dimaga don't get to the semis of the KotB tournament, then there will definitely be a case that zerg is underpowered, as those are two very good players who can use any race to their full power. Complaints from low-level players should not factor into balance decisions at all though.
I don't agree with you at all about this thread being pointless. Raelcun is right on most points. Zerg tech switches and unit production easily out matches P and T if they have expanded correctly.
Actually. the only point I dont agree with him about are the nydus worms. yeah.. it's cool having units transported from on end of the map to the other.. but the problem is build time for th enydus.. the scream.. then the time it takes to individually unload one unit at a time for it to be effective as a defensive or offensive worm. Spreading creep early game is a must, however. A lot of lower level zergs keep spreading creep early game and have no way of utilizing those larvae while the higher level players spread creep and give their armies a good advantage of surrounding for pushes.
TBH the only problem I have with zerg (being a zerg player) is the tank UI and the slow drop on the nydus worms. ZvP seems like a pretty balanced matchup (maybe a few and i mean FEW tweaks and it'd be pretty good) while ZvT mech seems a bit OP (not saying it' snot unbeatable.. but at current point in time it's pretty hard to counter with less than 150 apm ((multiple drops)).
Say what you will about my post.. but most of it seems like a valid argument.
i do think SC2 will become 'the' or one of the greatest games ever developed. So far so good since most of the blanace came in BETA! Gogo blizzard.
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Zerg is only bad for bad players really. The difference is that the macro ability is much more punishing to these bad players than terran or protoss abilities. If you don't like it then don't play zerg duh.
But at high/pro level zerg is not underpowered at all. Thus, Z is not underpowered period.
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For the love of god people, can you use spoilers if you are going to spoil tournament results, any tournament.
I haven't watched the latest king of the beta games yet because I actually have to sleep so I have been avoiding that thread in fear of spoilers. And the Day9daily thread.
Then I open this one and the first thing I see is spoiler for the QXC vs Dimaga games, eh?
It isn't so hard and it makes slowpookes like me happy so please, I beg of you to use spoilers 
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On July 23 2010 08:44 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 06:59 Deckkie wrote:
About the Tech switch
I think its a very big advantage.
Think about the ZvP game from the King of the Beta (think it was IdrA vs Huk ... not sure)
toss came with mass Collosis, and the Zerg could counter it relatively easy with Corrupters, because Zerg can tech-switch super fast. A terran or Protoss would have had much more problems with it.
Also When a Zerg player looses drones, he can make ten new ones in a blink. Terran and Toss need to make them one by one.
Conclusion Tech switch big advantage You really haven't thought through anything in your post. If you're Terran, you likely have a Starport regardless of strategy...if it's MMM, fast banshee, Ravens in Mech, etc. Terran see a Colossus, immediately swap their Starport to a Reactor and start pumping out double Vikings. Zerg, oppositely, can't get all their tech buildings in advance (for obvious reasons), so when Zerg sees a Colossus, they have to build a Spire, which takes roughly 17 minutes, and then change all their unit production into Corrupters, which are completely useless against the rest of the Protoss army and twice the cost of a Viking (the only reason Zerg players make Corrupters is lack of alternatives...they're a terrible unit). That you think Zerg can react and counter a Colossus faster than Terran is ridiculous. And that doesn't even include the point that Colossus don't hard counter all Terran ground like they do with Zerg, meaning unlike Zerg, Terran have several options of response. You're point about replacing Drones ten at a time isn't an inherent advantage as it costs larvae, meaning that you can't be fortifying your army. I find it amazing how Non-Zerg players view Zerg through rose-colored glasses in nearly every discussion.
Yes your right, I did see Zerg through rose glasses, and have been told couple of times already how wrong I am, and Im sorry for that.
But I do also think you might see terran through rose glasses as well. Terran has both factory's, raxes, and starports. and they have to build from all three of them. as terran you can not say: ohh I need some vickings lets first make ten off those and then ill go on with making bio/mech.
And I have a question abut that (since I clearly dont know enough about Zerg) : dont you always tech to anti air in a basic build? or does that really weaken your ground army tech to much??
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On July 23 2010 17:20 Salteador Neo wrote:
Zerg is only bad for bad players really. The difference is that the macro ability is much more punishing to these bad players than terran or protoss abilities. If you don't like it then don't play zerg duh.
But at high/pro level zerg is not underpowered at all. Thus, Z is not underpowered period.
Balancing a game only around pro level is not good enough. SC2 will be solds to millions of people, then only around 100 people should enjoy a balanced game? Remember who gives money to Blizzard for developing the game (hint: not the 100 pro people).
And I've yet to see a high level Zerg. Idra seems to get beaten by pretty simple Terran tactics, so he can't be high level.
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On July 23 2010 18:47 eivind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:20 Salteador Neo wrote:
Zerg is only bad for bad players really. The difference is that the macro ability is much more punishing to these bad players than terran or protoss abilities. If you don't like it then don't play zerg duh.
But at high/pro level zerg is not underpowered at all. Thus, Z is not underpowered period. Balancing a game only around pro level is not good enough. SC2 will be solds to millions of people, then only around 100 people should enjoy a balanced game? Remember who gives money to Blizzard for developing the game (hint: not the 100 pro people). And I've yet to see a high level Zerg. Idra seems to get beaten by pretty simple Terran tactics, so he can't be high level.
:D made at least me laugh.
But I disagree, I think the game should be balanced around pro's and we lower tier players should just learn to play better.
To me balancing isn't making something viable against something only if you have Flash's or Jaedong's apm, when the other player can use only his right hand be ok.
So if everything is equally balanced for every race and for pro's, we will catch up eventually.
Plus I have seen a lot of lower tier terran's getting destroyed when using mech just because they just push into zergs base and start sieging when the battle is already going on and then they complain how crap mech is.
So no, please don't balance the game around lower tier players.
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Need to see what new maps come out. With maps the way they are allowing terran and protoss to wall off it really hurts zerg harrass... which is what makes the zerg strong. Without that option it isn't really showing how balanced the zerg can be on an open map.
Take away terrans 2-3 building wall and I think zerg would almost need a nerf to prevent harrassment. Especially in the early game.
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On July 23 2010 18:47 eivind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:20 Salteador Neo wrote:
Zerg is only bad for bad players really. The difference is that the macro ability is much more punishing to these bad players than terran or protoss abilities. If you don't like it then don't play zerg duh.
But at high/pro level zerg is not underpowered at all. Thus, Z is not underpowered period. Balancing a game only around pro level is not good enough. SC2 will be solds to millions of people, then only around 100 people should enjoy a balanced game? Remember who gives money to Blizzard for developing the game (hint: not the 100 pro people). And I've yet to see a high level Zerg. Idra seems to get beaten by pretty simple Terran tactics, so he can't be high level.
Well I didn't say it is fair. But I guess it's impossible to have the three races perfectly balanced at both low and high level of play. And if I have to choose, then it must be balanced at high level of course. Noobies can always learn to play better. Pros cannot become worse for the sake of balance xd
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On July 23 2010 17:30 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 08:44 Graven wrote:On July 23 2010 06:59 Deckkie wrote:
About the Tech switch
I think its a very big advantage.
Think about the ZvP game from the King of the Beta (think it was IdrA vs Huk ... not sure)
toss came with mass Collosis, and the Zerg could counter it relatively easy with Corrupters, because Zerg can tech-switch super fast. A terran or Protoss would have had much more problems with it.
Also When a Zerg player looses drones, he can make ten new ones in a blink. Terran and Toss need to make them one by one.
Conclusion Tech switch big advantage You really haven't thought through anything in your post. If you're Terran, you likely have a Starport regardless of strategy...if it's MMM, fast banshee, Ravens in Mech, etc. Terran see a Colossus, immediately swap their Starport to a Reactor and start pumping out double Vikings. Zerg, oppositely, can't get all their tech buildings in advance (for obvious reasons), so when Zerg sees a Colossus, they have to build a Spire, which takes roughly 17 minutes, and then change all their unit production into Corrupters, which are completely useless against the rest of the Protoss army and twice the cost of a Viking (the only reason Zerg players make Corrupters is lack of alternatives...they're a terrible unit). That you think Zerg can react and counter a Colossus faster than Terran is ridiculous. And that doesn't even include the point that Colossus don't hard counter all Terran ground like they do with Zerg, meaning unlike Zerg, Terran have several options of response. You're point about replacing Drones ten at a time isn't an inherent advantage as it costs larvae, meaning that you can't be fortifying your army. I find it amazing how Non-Zerg players view Zerg through rose-colored glasses in nearly every discussion. Yes your right, I did see Zerg through rose glasses, and have been told couple of times already how wrong I am, and Im sorry for that. But I do also think you might see terran through rose glasses as well. Terran has both factory's, raxes, and starports. and they have to build from all three of them. as terran you can not say: ohh I need some vickings lets first make ten off those and then ill go on with making bio/mech. And I have a question abut that (since I clearly dont know enough about Zerg) : dont you always tech to anti air in a basic build? or does that really weaken your ground army tech to much??
They can switch that reactor to the starport and start pumping them out 2 at a time, though, people seems to far underestimate the power of reactors when it comes to medivac, marine, viking and hellion production.
We all have queens, yeah. But honestly, no, you don't always get AA in your build. Consider this, you need 100 gas for speed, 100 for lair, 100 for ovie speed if you want any intel. Now add in roach upgrades and unit upgrades. These gas hurt, and these are gas you want to be spending rightaway. The 200 gas for spire hurts a ton, nevermind the 100gas per mute part. The gas+upgrade for hydra hurts greatly too. Besides, few Ts would go banshees without cloak, and as Z, if you can scout anything ahead of time, you'd really only see a starport + tech lab. Oh, sure, if the T is staying on one base it'd most likely be banshees, so you spend 100gas on overseer at least. Then let's consider how a Z's best hope at a late game situation is tier 3, and given the gas consuming nature of ultras/broodlords, you want to hoard up gas and start infestation pit/hive relatively early...all these gas adds up, and if you want to be in a position to match T at all, you will be cutting corners.
AA is one of the easiest one to skip given the power of queens. As to how effective that is? Well, it depends. 3 queens can take out a lot of stuff, and a number of Ts would hold off on using air just because Zs have been opting for extra queens. Then there are some Ts that up the ante and make more banshees - after all, they are excellent anti-ground DPS no matter what. Then one little loss of attention, you lose a queen, and what would've been a winnable fight becomes impossible. Honestly, having played T for a while, barring situations where I just try to skimp on turrets completely I have never felt as helpless as I did as Z. Where I can play safe with T and sit on one base with decent econ for a while, it is completely impossible with Z even with larva injection. I don't know if this means anything like imbalance, but I certainly feel that Zerg in SC2 has been placed into a particularly reactive position.
On July 23 2010 20:33 Bobgrimly wrote:
Need to see what new maps come out. With maps the way they are allowing terran and protoss to wall off it really hurts zerg harrass... which is what makes the zerg strong. Without that option it isn't really showing how balanced the zerg can be on an open map.
Take away terrans 2-3 building wall and I think zerg would almost need a nerf to prevent harrassment. Especially in the early game.
Scrap station? Even if they make the distance shorter, something like that isn't too amazingly hard to defend. Show a Z 2 bunkers and that Z will back off, and all you lose is a slight bit of time for that 200 minerals. Short rush distances might be a boom for ZvT, but for ZvP it is almost certain to be a huge issue with the power that 2gate has been displaying in the matchup. I really feel like Z's harassment ability isn't just hurt by the ability for other races to wall in, but the speed at which they can match Z's production while maintaining a decent economy.
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On July 23 2010 14:23 Gunman_csz wrote:omg that Haypro beat THE STERLORK!!! Then that map must have truly must be broken and omg omg that QXC beat Dimaga, Then TVZ must be broken. This is what you sound like. Can someone please tell me how he got 3k posts.
Thanks for the spoiler...
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As I see it, supposing relatively even knowledge of the units (including the opposition) there is a difference in the useful APM (not talking about spamming a rally point) to get to a certain level.
For example, on an arbitrary scale from 1-10 (where 10 is the high end, so a 10 player would beat a 9 regularly) I think it is something like this:
APM Terran Protoss Zerg
30 4 3 2
60 6 5 4
90 7 7 5.5
120 8 8 7
150+ 9 9 9
And if it turns out like broodwars as I recall some korean with zerg will hit 10 because there is more to do with a high APM (larva, creep tumors, mad zergling/muta micro).
As it is though a majority of the players are running in the 60 ish range (or probably 90-120 for people here) and that is where there is an imbalance because Terran can 1a2a or stair step at lower levels whereas missing some muta micro, even at a high level can lose you a game.
+ Show Spoiler +Just look at Dimaga vs QXC game 1, 1 missclick and no more mutas.
Terran can also have a simple build order which is essentially immune to rushes, cutting out the possibility of making any early big mistakes (whereas a Zerg player who can't wall off has to always have good scouting and balance the macro/micro because the Terran or Protoss player will invariably dictate the pace of the early game).
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Thanks Raelcun for this excellent write-up. I've found nothing in here that I haven't said before in zerg QQ threads and it's nice to see it all in one place.
I think Zerg is a blast to play because of all the constant scouting you need to do to know when to switch form powering drones to making military units. You never get a chance to go "well, this is a macro game right now so I can just sit back and chill for a moment"
That being said, Zerg are just straight up boring to watch. I think this comes from the infancy of the game but there just seems to be so few micro opportunities for zerg to make battles more interesting then blob vs blob. Seeing roaches burrow to avoid damage mid battle is extremely uncommon, as is seeing things like zerg players pulling units back to avoid damage. It just makes the race seem dull from a spectators perspective but I feel that will change as people get more experience with the race.
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Zerg is a lot of fun to play for me at least, but it is definitely the least forgiving race. P and T can counter the zerg's (non-diverse) unit composition, they have much more options for early and mid game harassment, they have OP AtG air units (void and bancheese), they can skimp on army early and power by doing a simple wall off, and they have the more powerful late game armies, and they can tech to T3 faster than zerg.
I just see too many situations where the zerg are way more vulnerable than other races, and unlike broodwar we don't have any amazing spell casters to use as our trump card.
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