EPTIf IdrA and Dimaga don't get to the semis of the KotB tournament, then there will definitely be a case that zerg is underpowered, as those are two very good players who can use any race to their full power. Complaints from low-level players should not factor into balance decisions at all though.
Why Zerg is Good - Page 17
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
If IdrA and Dimaga don't get to the semis of the KotB tournament, then there will definitely be a case that zerg is underpowered, as those are two very good players who can use any race to their full power. Complaints from low-level players should not factor into balance decisions at all though. | ||
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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
On July 23 2010 10:09 jalstar wrote: Do you have stats that it doesn't end 50/50? The highest level tourney we've had so far, the 17173 world cup or whatever, had 3 zergs in the semis and one Terran, ZvZ finals. No one gives a shit that low level zergs lose a lot of games. Pros are doing fine with Zerg and that's that. Tournament results from several patches ago are not relevant. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On July 23 2010 10:52 Ruthless wrote: Tournament results from several patches ago are not relevant. They absolutely are. Zerg has not been completely revamped since then, so arguments that Zerg needs a complete revamp to be competitive are pointless. | ||
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RxN
United States255 Posts
On July 23 2010 10:54 jalstar wrote: They absolutely are. Zerg has not been completely revamped since then, so arguments that Zerg needs a complete revamp to be competitive are pointless. You're a fool. It's not only what has changed for zerg, but what has changed with terran and protoss as well. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On July 23 2010 11:08 RxN wrote: You're a fool. It's not only what has changed for zerg, but what has changed with terran and protoss as well. The changes made have been relatively small compared to even the patch changes at the beginning of beta. Besides, people were saying "mech is unstoppable" when the 17173 world cup was going on as well. | ||
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 23 2010 10:47 jalstar wrote: You think Diamond level right now is anywhere near the skill cap? Again, Terran is a hard race in BW, and D/C terrans fail hard on iccup but the top Terran pros can win tons of games. Again, you have shown no evidence that Zerg's situation in SC2 is any different from Terran's in SC1. Needing more APM and skill to play does not mean worse. Keep on arguing for the sake of arguing/trolling. LET me explain this to you in simple terms. The only and only reasons Terran seems hard to those D/C players is because of the Terran mechanics (unit production, spells, unit control, etc). Now that is a freaking polar opposite to the Zerg race in SC2. Because A. Zergs don't have many spell casters. B. Unity product is simplified (MBS), and unit control is way easier. Mechanics is what made Terran hard! Mechanics is extremely simplified in sc2! thus your argument is flawed. So please don't don't go on comparing two entirely different things on two very different games. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On July 23 2010 11:08 RxN wrote: You're a fool. It's not only what has changed for zerg, but what has changed with terran and protoss as well. Also what has changed with knowledge of the game and strategies. Terran were very hard to get into at the start of the beta because of their diverse tech tree. Zerg were very straight forward in comparison (at the start of the beta), as you'd be able to mass units because terran hadn't developed strategies and knowledge of the tech tree. As terrans learned the most efficient way of playing, they grew increasingly harder to deal with for zerg. They've basically got an infinite amount of openings to choose from. Because of their diversity I'd argue they're still the race with the most unexplored potential. I just don't see zerg finding any ways of putting pressure on a terran before 8-9 minutes into the game anytime soon. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On July 23 2010 11:17 Gunman_csz wrote: Keep on arguing for the sake of arguing/trolling. LET me explain this to you in simple terms. The only and only reasons Terran seems hard to those D/C players is because of the Terran mechanics (unit production, spells, unit control, etc). Now that is a freaking polar opposite to the Zerg race in SC2. Because A. Zergs don't have many spell casters. B. Unity product is simplified (MBS), and unit control is way easier. Mechanics is what made Terran hard! Mechanics is extremely simplified in sc2! thus your argument is flawed. So please don't don't go on comparing two entirely different things on two very different games. Microing muta/baneling/speedling properly is much harder than microing any unit combination with terran or protoss. With Terran and Protoss I could do reasonably well with massing units and pressing 1a, with Zerg it's impossible to win like that. Also macroing is much less mindless with Zerg since you need to use both creep tumors and larva inject. So yes, there are mechanics in SC2. I can't believe so much time has passed and people are still saying there aren't. | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
On July 23 2010 11:17 LaLuSh wrote: I just don't see zerg finding any ways of putting pressure on a terran before 8-9 minutes into the game anytime soon. At least until we see a new map pool that doesn't favor the use of ramps and small chokes. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On July 23 2010 11:24 Headshot wrote: At least until we see a new map pool that doesn't favor the use of ramps and small chokes. The maps are imba? That's ridiculous, everyone knows mech is imba! Remove siege tanks! | ||
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 23 2010 11:22 jalstar wrote: Microing muta/baneling/speedling properly is much harder than microing any unit combination with terran or protoss. With Terran and Protoss I could do reasonably well with massing units and pressing 1a, with Zerg it's impossible to win like that. Also macroing is much less mindless with Zerg since you need to use both creep tumors and larva inject. So yes, there are mechanics in SC2. I can't believe so much time has passed and people are still saying there aren't. Are we still arguing this. You are putting words in my mouth. I SAID mechanics is simplified not that it does not exist. And if you think managing low energy is hard then it is pointless talking to you. ARE you seriously saying the that MBS and unlimited unit selection doesn't make things simpler in terms of mechanics? LET me ask you this, Why is it if not for mechanics that Terran is hard for low level? Keep on posting (cough troll) | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19392 Posts
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SpaceYeti
United States723 Posts
Coincidence? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/media/screenshots EDIT: Kept looking, and nm. They get better deeper in the stack. :D | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
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Fizbin
Canada202 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
qxc just beat Dimaga so that's a sign something is definitely wrong with TvZ Are we still arguing this. You are putting words in my mouth. I SAID mechanics is simplified not that it does not exist. And if you think managing low energy is hard then it is pointless talking to you. ARE you seriously saying the that MBS and unlimited unit selection doesn't make things simpler in terms of mechanics? Zerg mechanics are still harder than Terran and Protoss. You're not thinking relatively. | ||
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starcat
66 Posts
On July 23 2010 12:53 jalstar wrote: + Show Spoiler + qxc just beat Dimaga so that's a sign something is definitely wrong with TvZ Zerg mechanics are still harder than Terran and Protoss. You're not thinking relatively. People are too dumb to realize these things. They live in their own little world, and seem to play a different sc2 than the rest of us. | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
On July 23 2010 13:01 starcat wrote: People are too dumb to realize these things. They live in their own little world, and seem to play a different sc2 than the rest of us. Calm down your being hypocritical at this point, any time you feel someone is dumb for not feeling the same way you do your living in your own little world buddy. Hate to break it to you in such a fashion but you need to let it go, whether the race feels broken to you or not isn't going to change someone elses personal experience. | ||
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 23 2010 12:53 jalstar wrote: + Show Spoiler + qxc just beat Dimaga so that's a sign something is definitely wrong with TvZ Zerg mechanics are still harder than Terran and Protoss. You're not thinking relatively. Are you even capable of understanding an argument? It doesn't matter if Zerg mechanics are relatively harder compared to Protoss/Terran in SC2 (debatle), The point is that it is still no where near as demanding as the pure mechanics/limitations of SC1. This explains why Terran had to master the fundamentally hard mechanics to compete with their counterparts at the lower level ICCUP. So you are saying all these people are complaining because they can't manage their queen energy? or spew lava? Do you even think before you type? Like I have already pointed out you can't compare two inherit opposite race in two entirely different games. Keep on trolling. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
It doesn't matter if Zerg mechanics are relatively harder compared to Protoss/Terran in SC2 (debatle Yes it does that's the whole point. The learning curve is harder so Zergs aren't as good right now. Again, a recent result has convinced me that ZvT does need to be tweaked in favor of Z, but Zerg mechanics are definitely harder. Macro: with P or T you can group all your CCs/nexuses together and there's your macro mechanic. With Z you have double the macro mechanics if you want to have additional larva at each hatchery and creep all over the map. Micro: with P or T you can do ok with using 1a, with Z you need to flank, split banelings, control mutas, burrow roaches, micro infestors (and very few zergs have been doing all those things). There's no ball of death for Zerg, not even close. Also, I don't understand why you're trying to derail this thread into a flamewar. So you are saying all these people are complaining because they can't manage their queen energy? or spew lava? Do you even think before you type? I've only seen Idra and TLO cover the map with creep tumors while getting maximum larva. And so many zergs have been using a 1a blob of death it's not even funny. | ||
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