On July 27 2010 02:03 FTemplar wrote:
What about Guardians? I mean... Brood lors
They have long range, can withstand lots of damage and you can do some terrain harass like one would with carriers .
What about Guardians? I mean... Brood lors

T3.5
Forum Index > SC2 General |
brain_
United States812 Posts
On July 27 2010 02:03 FTemplar wrote: Show nested quote + On July 25 2010 06:53 okrane wrote: 5)Zerg cannot abuse Terrain Zerg has absolutely no unit that can abuse cliffs, ramps, ledges, chokes and all other crazy stuff map-makers will put in their maps. What about Guardians? I mean... Brood lors ![]() T3.5 | ||
MamiyaOtaru
United States1687 Posts
On July 25 2010 14:12 Count_Waltz wrote: Is it me or is every air unit or anti air unit a counter to the mutalisk. I mean I'm just going through the units and what they're good against and everything is good against mutalisk. I mean are mutas really that good that you have to give each race 6 different viable options against them? Well sure, a unit that can ignore terrain and bypass chokes is pretty damn good. Now give it the ability in a small group to tear down a hatchery in under 10 seconds, and you have the Banshee. Tada! | ||
MrBims
2 Posts
Reaper: Barracks, Techlab Colossus: Gateway, Cybernetics Core, Robotics Facility, Robotics Bay Brood Lord: Spawning Pool, Lair, Spire, Infestation Pit, Hive, Greater Spire, Corrupters. A Reaper can come out well within 4 minutes and is an incredible harasser. A Colossus can come in well within 8 minutes and is a mainstay in PvZ and PvT. A Brood Lord will come in... well, never, because the game will be long over. Both Reapers and Colossi benefit from the fact that, aside from the Robotics Bay, they only require buildings that are going to be built anyway. Everyone gets a Barracks with a tech lab, everyone gets a Robotics Facility. Nobody gets a Hive, nobody gets a Greater Spire. So not only do you get Brood Lords much, much later than the equivalent mobile siegers, but they require you to go out of your way to build them. So much for "tech switching", eh? Also, they have only twice the amount of HP as a Viking, they go down super easy for something so expensive. | ||
BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
Well sure, a unit that can ignore terrain and bypass chokes is pretty damn good. Now give it the ability in a small group to tear down a hatchery in under 10 seconds, and you have the Banshee. Tada! banshees cost as much as tanks (almost). they are fragile,cant defend against air and die to any AA in the game. also what is the better position for you? 6 banshees which can be dealt with by a few hydras/2-3 spores or 6 tanks? or 6 banshees vs 3 colloxen? whats the bigger threat? ya thought so. you are just trying to find something to complain about. /edit after reading the post below me i will now stay out of this thread. its sad what tl has come to regarding balance discussions.in this thread its EXACTLY like in the bnet forums with people crying about evrything as long as their race isnt instawin/all races are exactly the same. i mean wallin imba? P>Z scouting tier1? really? | ||
Graven
United States314 Posts
Using a TvZ game as an example, let's say that as Zerg I make some lings and take the watch towers and then leave the rest of them just outside the Terran base. I'm now completely in the dark until I tech and upgrade Overlord Speed or get an Overseer. Terran are free to scout me as they wish, be it with units or a scan and I'm powerless. If I rush for tech, I could be faced with a mass group of Mauraders at any moment, from which the only counter during T1 is MASS lings -- Roaches and Blings are owned. I can't mass up lings just in case and not tech because I might instead see Banshee's or Mech pop out. The window of uncertainty is inherently unfair. One possible solution -- other than elimininating tight entry points into bases on maps -- is perhaps decreasing the build time of Spine Crawlers. That way, if I see a massive blob of units popping out of their wall, I can take drones off mining and make some quick defense. I'm not sure if that would solve everything, but I'm really at a loss for how Blizzard doesn't see the issue. How is it fair to have only one race that can't wall in and can't scout in T1? | ||
eivind
111 Posts
On July 27 2010 02:43 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: so the thread totally derailed into pointless "EVRYTHING IMBA! MY RACE TOTALLY SUXXX!" posts by former bnet forum users. well done folks! esp at the post above me. never seen such totally random and useless stat comparisons before. Show nested quote + Well sure, a unit that can ignore terrain and bypass chokes is pretty damn good. Now give it the ability in a small group to tear down a hatchery in under 10 seconds, and you have the Banshee. Tada! banshees cost as much as tanks (almost). they are fragile,cant defend against air and die to any AA in the game. also what is the better position for you? 6 banshees which can be dealt with by a few hydras/2-3 spores or 6 tanks? or 6 banshees vs 3 colloxen? whats the bigger threat? ya thought so. you are just trying to find something to complain about. /edit after reading the post below me i will now stay out of this thread. its sad what tl has come to regarding balance discussions.in this thread its EXACTLY like in the bnet forums with people crying about evrything as long as their race isnt instawin/all races are exactly the same. i mean wallin imba? P>Z scouting tier1? really? I looked at the post below you, then I looked at yours again. Your post resembles the official forum much closer than his. He argues why he believe Zerg is at disadvantage and even gives suggestion on how to improve it, while your post does not have anything to do in this thread. He does not say anything about instawin etc.. You will find people that do stupid posts anywhere and it is possible to ignore them (I hope..?). If you quote the posts then you just highlight them even more... I know I should have ignored your post if I had been a better human being! | ||
Graven
United States314 Posts
On July 27 2010 02:43 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: ...after reading the post below me i will now stay out of this thread. Thank you. | ||
Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On July 27 2010 02:36 MrBims wrote: Let's compare how much tech it takes to get to the terrain abusers: Reaper: Barracks, Techlab Colossus: Gateway, Cybernetics Core, Robotics Facility, Robotics Bay Brood Lord: Spawning Pool, Lair, Spire, Infestation Pit, Hive, Greater Spire, Corrupters. A Reaper can come out well within 4 minutes and is an incredible harasser. A Colossus can come in well within 8 minutes and is a mainstay in PvZ and PvT. A Brood Lord will come in... well, never, because the game will be long over. Both Reapers and Colossi benefit from the fact that, aside from the Robotics Bay, they only require buildings that are going to be built anyway. Everyone gets a Barracks with a tech lab, everyone gets a Robotics Facility. Nobody gets a Hive, nobody gets a Greater Spire. So not only do you get Brood Lords much, much later than the equivalent mobile siegers, but they require you to go out of your way to build them. So much for "tech switching", eh? Also, they have only twice the amount of HP as a Viking, they go down super easy for something so expensive. Are you a troll? if so 10/10 if not 0/10 | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
On July 25 2010 11:13 shlomo wrote: Show nested quote + On July 25 2010 06:53 okrane wrote: + Show Spoiler + I am going to take the oposite stand and explain why I believe Zerg is not good, or better yet why Zerg is not as good as the other two races. In this arguement not only will I take into account what we have already seen today in the most recent tournament battles but also the inherent potential of development of the races in the game. 1) Zerg have a uni-dimensional development Because each individual unit is enabled by building the coresponding tech structure, the tech paths of zerg are very linear. You get get Zerglings then Roaches the Hydras, pretty much in a straight line, thus making the advance in the tree pretty much predictible. Zerg will never be able to do stuff like: get a Tech Lab at the Barracks to get Marrauders, but pop a Reaper first for some harrass. Oh, factory is finished, switch the tech lab over for instant tank production. The ramifications for this are endless. (same example works for protoss very well with pretty much all tech buildings). The fact that unit building structures have multiple units enabled at start give the other two races a much more unpredictible transition possibility which zerg lacks. Zerg will just enable 1 unit at a time. If you see Hydra Den, you know exactly what to expect and how soon its gonna come. All linear and limited play. 2) Zerg units lack versatility. Both other races have harrass units that can bolster the main army - like banshees or void rays; support units that also enable elaborate tactics - Medivacs heal and can be used to drop, Sentries can use FF to split armies but also to block ramps defensively or offensively; upgrades which enhance the way a unit can be utilised: Blink Stalkers, Stim and Concussive Shell... Zerg has none of that. All you get is: here, have this unit, it is good at that, use it that way. Roach burrow play is the only upgrade that might add some flavor, but it is very gimmicky in the first place (i.e. 1 scan and u lose). Look at the upgrades for Zerg: pretty much all of them spell: this unit is now faster, or has a better range or better armor... all in all uncreative. Can there even be a comparison between the Blink for stalkers and the Hydra range upgrade?? The first spells "omg cool new possibilities" the second... "well, I guess my hydras will shoot farther now". How about an activated ability which increases Hydra range by 2 (from 6 to 8) for like 8-10 seconds... that would open some nice play... Each zerg unit is good at its own role and that's it. Which pretty much means no room for extra creativity and cute play. 3) Zerg has the lowest micromanagement need Every T and P unit can be greately enhanced by microing it around. Either because it has an ability to use or because of its design. A few examples: Stalkers: high range, very fast can be used to pick off slower, lower range units like roaches or marines. Blink. Sentries: FF, GS, Hallucination Immortals: making them absorb the tank shots, immortal drops pheonix: picking up stuff, moving shot to keep out of range of mutas etc Marines: stim Marrauders: concussive shell kite, stim Viking: landing action Hellion: harrass Thor: Thor Drops etc etc etc Lets see how zerg has to micro: you get to move your mutas around (which with how ridiculous Missile Turrets and Thors are you cant even do cute Muta Micro as in BW), you get to move your lings around for some surrounds, eventually rearrange your army when sending it into battle and maybe some infestor play. All because zerg units are pretty sluggish and bland. Hydras - all zerg makes those, what can they do... well, they can shoot. How do you micro them? well... you a-move... and retreat when it doesnt work. How about... I dunno... make overlords spill creep while they move so you can create a trail of creep which can serve as a creep highway for your units by moving your overlord in front of your army... and you would need to make sure the ovie is always in front, and the units must keep up as the creep will wear off in time (just a wild thing out the top of my head.) 4) Zerg has very limited harrass options. A game that is nice to watch has a ton of action. Nobody wants to see a 30 minute game where both players macro up to the final battle. The idea that Zerg is a "reactionary race" is just another word for crap race. It is simply poor game design to leave a race take all the pounding and repell harrass after harrass just to win in the end-game by out-macro-ing its oponent. It bores the players and it bores the viewers. It limits creativity and meta-game progression. We've seen the countless ways Terrans can open and transition while keeping the pressure up on its oponent. It strenghtens the idea that the race has a deep undiscovered potential, it makes it worth exploring and expanding. In today's state, the zerg we see, will continue to fend off attacks and macro up for 10 more years. Nothing much will change because there is not much room for it. With the new game mechanics that allow perfectly zergling-tight walls, and roaches which are an absolute piece of crap slow unit, zerg is pretty much of no threat early on. Rushing to Mutalisks? No problem, 2 Missile Turrets with their absurd damage and low cost and you are safe. Hydralisks? Well, let me just put this here tank on my ledge and play TvZ - "The Tower Defense"... How about a disruption web like ability on those corruptors, or some sneakier way to break those wall-ins at the ramp, like burrowed roaches moving underneath buildings or cliffs, or some sort of zergling catapult that would be fun... I dunno, something There is a reason why in chess, it is White who is almost always favored to win. Because it has the initiative. Because Black is the reactionary race... think about it. 5)Zerg cannot abuse Terrain Zerg has absolutely no unit that can abuse cliffs, ramps, ledges, chokes and all other crazy stuff map-makers will put in their maps. Therefore map makers really have to be careful about the maps they make. Races cannot be balanced in function of a map, it will just never work. What about the opposite? Huge flat maps with empty spaces? Well, zerg will have trouble on those too, as hellions can enter ur base with ease and protoss early pushes will be much harder to defend. Which means that other races do fine on different kinds of maps, it is only zerg who will suffer because of maps with funky terrain. Where's our Lurker or other unit that can abuse ramps and chokes and stuff? gone.. but wait all is good we have the baneling.... Anyway, I might continue this later on.. but I think I made sufficient points to counter your arguement. Hit the nail on the head with pretty much all these points right there. But of course Terran needs its easy wins... Jep, EXACTLY. Zerg has no options to really be aggressive and it's harder to defend against harrassement because you can't really wall off and as soon as the opponent has Tanks/Colossi you'r pretty much forced to move out and sacrifice your Units. It would be fine if they are a defensive macro race, but they should at least have a chance to defend their bases properly! | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. | ||
Graven
United States314 Posts
On July 27 2010 03:50 MythicalMage wrote: Zerg has no options to be agressive? No Zerg doesn't use their options to be aggressive. Burrowed infestors, Mutalisks, burrowed roaches, drops, nydus, creep harass, the list goes on. You just have to use the tools you have. And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. Why do you think Zerg players don't use their many options to be aggressive? It seems odd that Terran plyers use a million of them and Zerg don't use any. Rationally, it would seem that it's one of two possibilities: either the aggression options you have listed are not as viable as you think OR -- and this is key -- you're simply more intelligent than every other Zerg player. Now, for the record, I'm with you on this. The latter option just feels far more realistic. Zerg players are a bunch of morons who don't have any idea on how to play the race. I can't speak for the rest of them, but if you were to make some toutorial videos on how to paly Zerg, I'd be first in line to buy them. With your knowledge, I could dominate the pro-scene. Thanks in advance. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On July 27 2010 04:01 MythicalMage wrote: Zerg don't use their options, normally, because they feel that "powering" is always better than being aggressive. All races have this to some extend; you build your magic unit composition and THEN you attack. Zerg has it worse than most due to the lack of units. That, and, as with pretty much every RTS game, people want to figure out the core, figure out what's the standard thing to do against Mech of 4 gate or what have you before exploring additional possibilities. Can you load up some games showing us ignorant Zerg player how to play the race? It'd be really helpful. | ||
Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
Stalkers and chargelots runs as fast as drones everywhere. Add blink for ninja speed. Collusus are also extremely fast while being able to pass terrain. Only units that arent mobile are sentinels, immortals and HTs. Those units are just as slow as terran bio. On top of that they can warp in units anywhere they have power. Terran, even bio is by far the slowest. Zerg is in the middle, but are way more mobile on the defence with creep and shizzle. Also someone talked about zerg weakness being unable to wall off... Well that would be kinda of stupid to do when your tier 1 units are roach and linx. And someone said zerg cant be aggressive.. Go watch dimaga on day9 Kotb. However the way you can pump drones and then pump out an army insanely fast you are better off going fast expo and then just race for the 200/200 before the other player or do some sort of timing push. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
On July 27 2010 03:50 MythicalMage wrote: Zerg has no options to be agressive? No Zerg doesn't use their options to be aggressive. Burrowed infestors, Mutalisks, burrowed roaches, drops, nydus, creep harass, the list goes on. You just have to use the tools you have. And, more importantly, and I know people aren't going to want to hear this, but Zerg is the least finished race. Wait for the zerg expansion, and then see what options you have. I may have said it wrong. They don't have options early on like the other races (especially terran) and they can't really wall off. And if you are in defense mode, it's very very hard to become the aggressor because your opponent is always ahead. It's just extremely hard to defend early stuff like hellions and reapers and still be on top of your macro/tech to defend the push or air harrassement/drops. If Zerg itself tries some early aggression with Baneling or Roaches, their economy will be extremely bad and they will be forced to win the game with that early aggression. So, as Zerg -You are the worst at defending early aggression, -You are the one that relies the most on being able to defend early aggression and -You are the one with the least possibilitys to be aggressive early (in the sense of harrassing, not an all-in rush) | ||
Graven
United States314 Posts
On July 27 2010 04:04 Armsved wrote: Lets be honest here, protoss has by far the highest mobility of all races. Stalkers and chargelots runs as fast as drones everywhere. Add blink for ninja speed. Collusus are also extremely fast while being able to pass terrain. Only units that arent mobile are sentinels, immortals and HTs. Those units are just as slow as terran bio. On top of that they can warp in units anywhere they have power. Terran, even bio is by far the slowest. Zerg is in the middle, but are way more mobile on the defence with creep and shizzle. Also someone talked about zerg weakness being unable to wall off... Well that would be kinda of stupid to do when your tier 1 units are roach and linx. And someone said zerg cant be aggressive.. Go watch dimaga on day9 Kotb. However the way you can pump drones and then pump out an army insanely fast you are better off going fast expo and then just race for the 200/200 before the other player or do some sort of timing push. I mentioned walling off because it gives Zerg a big scouting disadvantage in the early game. The race is built to be reactionary and before T2, Terran and Protoss can see what Zerg is donig and Zerg cannot see what Terran is doing. It's counter-intuative to the race's design. I'd be interested in seeing some maps without the option to wall-off, forcing non-Zerg players to be very careful with their "Sim City." They can still protect their mineral line without cutting off the Zerg ability to scout. It's unfair that Zerg can be kept in the dark due solely to map design, not gameplay design. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On July 27 2010 04:09 Graven wrote: But zerg has the most accessible, and arguably the cheapest scout in the overlord. Morph it into an overseer, and you can even stop their production for a time. Show nested quote + On July 27 2010 04:04 Armsved wrote: Lets be honest here, protoss has by far the highest mobility of all races. Stalkers and chargelots runs as fast as drones everywhere. Add blink for ninja speed. Collusus are also extremely fast while being able to pass terrain. Only units that arent mobile are sentinels, immortals and HTs. Those units are just as slow as terran bio. On top of that they can warp in units anywhere they have power. Terran, even bio is by far the slowest. Zerg is in the middle, but are way more mobile on the defence with creep and shizzle. Also someone talked about zerg weakness being unable to wall off... Well that would be kinda of stupid to do when your tier 1 units are roach and linx. And someone said zerg cant be aggressive.. Go watch dimaga on day9 Kotb. However the way you can pump drones and then pump out an army insanely fast you are better off going fast expo and then just race for the 200/200 before the other player or do some sort of timing push. I mentioned walling off because it gives Zerg a big scouting disadvantage in the early game. The race is built to be reactionary and before T2, Terran and Protoss can see what Zerg is donig and Zerg cannot see what Terran is doing. It's counter-intuative to the race's design. I'd be interested in seeing some maps without the option to wall-off, forcing non-Zerg players to be very careful with their "Sim City." They can still protect their mineral line without cutting off the Zerg ability to scout. It's unfair that Zerg can be kept in the dark due solely to map design, not gameplay design. Terrans wall off because speedlings will literally end the game if they don't. The same can be said for Protoss. And if they don't wall well enough, a few banelings can be GG. | ||
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