EPTThe one thing that I feel isn't explored enough is drop play. Other than that, yes, zerg really do have less openings and mid game plays available to them. Anything else?
Why Zerg is Good - Page 27
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
The one thing that I feel isn't explored enough is drop play. Other than that, yes, zerg really do have less openings and mid game plays available to them. Anything else? | ||
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yalag
38 Posts
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MonkeyKungFu
Norway154 Posts
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DTown
United States428 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:24 Happy.fairytail wrote: Yes, now Terran has so many options -- does Zerg really only have like 2-3 openings and 2-3 mid game plays available to them? Yes, that is exactly the problem. | ||
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:30 MonkeyKungFu wrote: Removing thor splash would be good for the MU i think, its not like they lack good anti air and I think they just went overboard, same goes for the now ridiculous phoenix, my grandma can now take out infinite of mutalisks with a couple of phoenixes Two words: Fungal. Growth. Learn to use it. | ||
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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:24 Happy.fairytail wrote: Ruthless, I was going to list a bunch of things that Terrans are always worried about in TvZ, but I realized one major thing: US Zerg play has largely been uncreative for majority of the beta. The same openings we've seen from the beginning of the beta are still here today, except that roaches have been nerfed to the point where 1-base mass roach isn't viable anymore. We still see 14 pool 16 hatch, 14 hatch, and 14 pool/queen/hatch. On the other hand, US Terran play has evolved greatly. 3 rax marauder, 1 rax FE, proxy rax reaper, fast banshee, 1/1/1, fast hellion, fast thorship, fast tank/bunker roll, mass viking into BCs, mass marine/ghost, marine/tank/raven push, bio-oriented drop harass, and so-on. In addition, Zerg mid-game has been rather stale as well -- only recently have US Zergs begun to incorporate queens, infestors, burrow and drops into their play. In addition, I have rarely seen a Zerg timing push -- in fact, it seems like Zergs never consider timing into any of their games, they almost always play extremely passively, relying only on mutas to do their harass, and their macro to win their game for them. It just seems to me the reason why TvZ seems so Terran favored is that Terran play has expanded greatly over the beta, while Zergs have just gotten by on the strength of their macro and mutas/ling/bling. Yes, now Terran has so many options -- does Zerg really only have like 2-3 openings and 2-3 mid game plays available to them? This has been my feeling as well. I have played on europe a lot as well though. The problem I feel with zergs timing pushes and aggressive alternatives to 14 pool 15 hatch is that it makes me feel too all in. I have a number of timing pushes for a terran who expands in my mind. But that tank on the ridge and a slow tank push down the ramp for the expo makes me feel so hesitant to do something like an early push to try to shut it down. I feel like I have spent a lot of time trying different strategies but none have made me feel as confident as basically trying to out defend my opponent while macroing. (each one of the responses to the terran harrasses I listed is a different strategy in my mind). Zerg in SC2 at the current state of game play is definetly in the reactive position. If zerg beats back a timing push of some sort their best response is to macro harder with the advantage. I feel like if i destroy a terran drop play or stop his banshees he will have a few tanks sieged up covering his expo in a way that I have a very hard time breaking it to return the damage. So I will just power more drones. I feel like im trying to push a gimic if I get aggressive with zerg vs terran. I feel more free to try these things against protoss where I feel on a more level footing. (the one base roach build dimaga used vs whitera is something I actually like quite a lot vs the fast expanding toss and have used for a while). If anything I feel like terran players can just do anything and it will have a good success rate while zerg feels to me like a struggle to survive and out control the massive amounts of early harrass well enough to be able to win the big fight via having almost double the economy. | ||
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DTown
United States428 Posts
Muta-stacking would probably be pretty OP then though, huh? What are your thoughts on this idea? | ||
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Happy.fairytail
United States327 Posts
What I am saying is that I think 1-base zerg play has not been explored even close to the full extent. And I've never, ever seen a zerg even attempt a fast ling overlord drop, fast nydus, fast infestor, fast ultralisk, and fast broodlord. And I feel like zerg's mid-game play has not been explored to the full extent either. Why is the zerg mid-game almost always mass muta/ling/bling or roach/hydra? I mean, I gotta say, if Zerg innovation is over, that really sucks for you guys. Because seriously ... zerg play has been pretty stagnant this whole beta (at least compared to Terran), in my opinion... | ||
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:30 MonkeyKungFu wrote: Removing thor splash would be good for the MU i think, its not like they lack good anti air and I think they just went overboard, same goes for the now ridiculous phoenix, my grandma can now take out infinite of mutalisks with a couple of phoenixes If you see phoenix you should stop building mutalisks and build corruptors instead. They do very well against phoenix and will get you back control of the air. | ||
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:37 Happy.fairytail wrote: Chill man, I wasn't saying zerg players are less intelligent. Trust me, I'd never say that, because I'm sick of hearing arguments that zerg players are more skilled and terran takes no skill. What I am saying is that I think 1-base zerg play has not been explored even close to the full extent. And I've never, ever seen a zerg even attempt a fast ling overlord drop, fast nydus, fast infestor, fast ultralisk, and fast broodlord. And I feel like zerg's mid-game play has not been explored to the full extent either. Why is the zerg mid-game almost always mass muta/ling/bling or roach/hydra? I mean, I gotta say, if Zerg innovation is over, that really sucks for you guys. Because seriously ... zerg play has been pretty stagnant this whole beta (at least compared to Terran), in my opinion... The drop play and fast infestor could be explored but as far fast nydus, fast ultralisk, fast broodlord those are not viable against any competent opponent. Fast nydus requires a minimum of 300/300 and your opponent being so incompetent that he still has fog of war in his base in the mid-game. Fast ultralisk and fast broodlord is kind of a ridiculous idea, don't you think? All terran and toss players make timing pushes or have some sort of aggression that makes this impossible. Zerg always has to have a sizeable mid-game army in order to survive just to get to those tier 3.5 units and all of this costs a lot of gas. And what does this mid-game army consist of? Yes that stagnant roach/hydra or muta/ling composition that everyone is so bored of. | ||
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MonkeyKungFu
Norway154 Posts
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Happy.fairytail
United States327 Posts
Fast ultra/brolord is just as ridiculous as a fast thor/BC. And yeah, fast BC is probably pretty dumb, but I've never even seen zerg try it. The only 1-base play I've ever seen was baneling bust. Nowadays, we've been seeing BCs (the so-called worst Terran unit) in top-level play as well as Raven hunter-seeker missile use. We've been seeing very effective bio-based drops in mid-game. Could we really not see zerg's doing counter drops with 1 roach + 4 banelings to completely kill a whole mineral line? Could we really not see more ultra, brolord, infestor and queen play? | ||
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:52 Happy.fairytail wrote: Doomfox, fast thorship requires Starport/Medivac, which is 250/200. And are you saying offensive nydus is useless in any mid-game? Fast ultra/brolord is just as ridiculous as a fast thor/BC. And yeah, fast BC is probably pretty dumb, but I've never even seen zerg try it. The only 1-base play I've ever seen was baneling bust. Nowadays, we've been seeing BCs (the so-called worst Terran unit) in top-level play as well as Raven hunter-seeker missile use. We've been seeing very effective bio-based drops in mid-game. Could we really not see zerg's doing counter drops with 1 roach + 4 banelings to completely kill a whole mineral line? Could we really not see more ultra, brolord, infestor and queen play? I'm not saying offensive nydus or ultra/brood/infestor play is not viable. You asked whether or not FAST nydus, ultra/brood play is viable. And I said I don't believe it is and then stated why, based on my experiences. Also, I don't think anyone believed battlecruisers were ever weak. Edit: Also, fast BC can be viable because terran can easily wall-off and defend their choke/base with minimal resources. Zerg can not, ever, fast tech to tier 3.5 with just a handful of lings/roaches/anything. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:24 Happy.fairytail wrote: In addition, Zerg mid-game has been rather stale as well -- only recently have US Zergs begun to incorporate queens, infestors, burrow and drops into their play. In addition, I have rarely seen a Zerg timing push -- in fact, it seems like Zergs never consider timing into any of their games, they almost always play extremely passively, relying only on mutas to do their harass, and their macro to win their game for them. It just seems to me the reason why TvZ seems so Terran favored is that Terran play has expanded greatly over the beta, while Zergs have just gotten by on the strength of their macro and mutas/ling/bling. Yes, now Terran has so many options -- does Zerg really only have like 2-3 openings and 2-3 mid game plays available to them? I would like to comment on this post. Because of the huge variety of terran openings, you HAVE to play passively. You can't get a ling timing-push in because if the terran decides for a hellion-igniter push, you're toast. Not only that, but a wall in with an scv repairing it blocks ling agression. A baneling is only good for one shot, and takes up 50 minerals and 25 gas, which you WILL lose. Although very strong, its not very reliable to make a timing push with pure banelings. Queens are slow off creep and hardly strong against a couple of marauders. Roaches have a tiny tiny range, and require 2 upgrades to get a good use of their cloaking abilities. Not to mention they are hard countered by marauders, banshees, tanks and thors behind a wall. The zerg is not incapable of doing a timing push, however, they rely on deflecting the first push of a terran. Because the terran has a huge array of options layed out for him, he picks one and you follow the dance, not the other way round. Once you correctly scouted and deflected the push, then its zergs time to lead. Zerg is the macro race, no way around it. But if you can't get that macro going, for instance in the early or midgame, it becomes increasingly hard to get the advantage. As Zerg you need the macro advantage. You won't get any miracles handed to you like you would have by for instance a well placed nuke or a tank behind a solid wall, if you lose the macro war, you're pretty much toast. Because your units are the weakest you need to be able to produce more than the enemy, thus you need a bigger economy then them. It generally doesn't help the zergs economy that terran has a whole bible worth of harrasment units and tactics. As many others have said. A wall is the terrans best asset in the early game, the zerg lack this and hence have to rely on scouting and countering. Lategame Zerg is more than fine, its the midgame that's hard to get through. | ||
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Happy.fairytail
United States327 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:35 Ruthless wrote: This has been my feeling as well. I have played on europe a lot as well though. The problem I feel with zergs timing pushes and aggressive alternatives to 14 pool 15 hatch is that it makes me feel too all in. I have a number of timing pushes for a terran who expands in my mind. But that tank on the ridge and a slow tank push down the ramp for the expo makes me feel so hesitant to do something like an early push to try to shut it down. I feel like I have spent a lot of time trying different strategies but none have made me feel as confident as basically trying to out defend my opponent while macroing. (each one of the responses to the terran harrasses I listed is a different strategy in my mind). Zerg in SC2 at the current state of game play is definetly in the reactive position. If zerg beats back a timing push of some sort their best response is to macro harder with the advantage. I feel like if i destroy a terran drop play or stop his banshees he will have a few tanks sieged up covering his expo in a way that I have a very hard time breaking it to return the damage. So I will just power more drones. I feel like im trying to push a gimic if I get aggressive with zerg vs terran. I feel more free to try these things against protoss where I feel on a more level footing. (the one base roach build dimaga used vs whitera is something I actually like quite a lot vs the fast expanding toss and have used for a while). If anything I feel like terran players can just do anything and it will have a good success rate while zerg feels to me like a struggle to survive and out control the massive amounts of early harrass well enough to be able to win the big fight via having almost double the economy. I think you said it quick well. Because Terran is the aggressor almost every TvZ, Zerg "feels like a struggle to survive", because they're playing the macro game every time. And yes, that's the safe and smart play. But seriously ... I think Zergs have not explored their offensive options very much, which you admit. There are no build orders out there for going fast/mass half the units you have... why is that?? What you say about timing attacks is exactly right, and it's not unique to Zergs. If a Terran or Protoss fails in a timing attack, I'm pretty sure they lose the game too. All three races have ways to catch up -- they all can macro, they all can harass to get back in the game. I guess I just want to put out there that most zergs rely too much on their macro by playing passively, and now that Terran has innovated multiple harass plays/early timing pushes to win, it's up to Zerg to figure out early harass/timing push counters, as well as early harass/timing attacks of their own. | ||
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Disp
United States59 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:37 Happy.fairytail wrote: What I am saying is that I think 1-base zerg play has not been explored even close to the full extent. And I've never, ever seen a zerg even attempt a fast ling overlord drop, fast nydus, fast infestor, fast ultralisk, and fast broodlord. And I feel like zerg's mid-game play has not been explored to the full extent either. Why is the zerg mid-game almost always mass muta/ling/bling or roach/hydra? You haven't seen fast broodlord/ultra because it's literally impossible. Under absolute ideal circumstances you can get your first ultra out at about the 11 minute mark. And that's going almost completely ling so you have the 550 gas required just to tech to Ultra and then have gas to actually produce them. Add in hydras or roaches and you slow that down further. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:44 DoomFox wrote: The drop play and fast infestor could be explored but as far fast nydus, fast ultralisk, fast broodlord those are not viable against any competent opponent. I would be weary of fast infestors for the same reasons as ultras and broods. Infestors take roughly twice as long to build as roaches/hydras (50 vs. 27/33) and cost 3x the gas (150 vs. 50/25). Also without pathogen glands, they come into play without the ability to immediately contribute to your army. Any fast infestor play would be susceptible to early pushes. I agree that drops are one promising avenue for zerg agression in the mid-to-late game, the only problem being that it takes an eon to research. See for example: + Show Spoiler + Game 3 of Idra vs. TLO: immediate counter-offensive with roaches utlizing drops. Also, I'm interested in seeing more baneling drops being explored as properly microed overlords can deliver their payload even in the face of small-to-medium anti-air opposition. | ||
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OHtRUe
United States283 Posts
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Happy.fairytail
United States327 Posts
On July 27 2010 06:57 Chaosvuistje wrote: I would like to comment on this post. Because of the huge variety of terran openings, you HAVE to play passively. You can't get a ling timing-push in because if the terran decides for a hellion-igniter push, you're toast. Not only that, but a wall in with an scv repairing it blocks ling agression. A baneling is only good for one shot, and takes up 50 minerals and 25 gas, which you WILL lose. Although very strong, its not very reliable to make a timing push with pure banelings. Queens are slow off creep and hardly strong against a couple of marauders. I was referring to getting quick overlord speed/drop, and doing a ling drop to get around the chokes. Probably much more gas efficient than muta harass, and Terran probably won't be able to scout this kind of harass coming, whereas they can scan your spire. I mean, Zergs are already starting to do infestor drops with fungal growth/infested marine (kinda like Raven harass), why not just do good ol' zergling scv harass? And what about Ultra drops for main base buildilng harass? (And you can always extract your ultras out you know, it doesn't have to be a doom drop .. vikings are rather slow!) And I wonder why Zergs never use overlords to shuttle their queens around? I mean, isn't this what Toss do in BW all the time with their reavers? And I wonder why Zerg aren't more aggressive with map control? Mass vikings are owned by fungal growth + hydras. I feel like zerg should own the air every single game. I feel like there is still yet creativity to be explored...! | ||
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