EPTOn July 14 2010 06:19 iEchoic wrote:
250mm cannon isn't that effective against ultras anymore...
250mm cannon isn't that effective against ultras anymore...
Wrong. It doesn't stun them but it still kills them in five seconds.
[Poll] Racial Matchup Balance - Page 4
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StupidFatHobbit
United States98 Posts
Wrong. It doesn't stun them but it still kills them in five seconds. | ||
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Guilloteen
United States128 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On July 14 2010 06:36 StupidFatHobbit wrote: Wrong. It doesn't stun them but it still kills them in five seconds. Sorry for not having the numbers but the DPS is effectively the same now (in fact, IIRC it was BETTER to not use the cannon). | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
I've seen the following done by top terrans regularly (depending on maps/positions): double rax/fact >> marine/marauder/tank push double rax/fact >> marauder/hellion early push(way before mutas) double fact/rax >> marine/hellion/tank push double fact/rax >> upgraded hellion harass or marine/hellion >> thor/tanks + expo 1/1/1 >> hellion to banshee harass >> bio + tanks OR pure mech 1/1/1 >> early hellion+early viking for minor harass/scout >> thor drop rax/fact/cc >> turtle to mech >> roflstop >> win kulas ravine > mass vikings very powerful LT > cliffing w/ tanks with a build/opening that looks nearly identical to banshee or thor drop which drives me nuts so I just veto LT that being said, all the strats have optimal counters but most of them involve early dedication which don't transition well if you guess wrong or timing is way off (too early =bad econ or too late=dead) and to the people who think this matchup is imbalanced favoring Z (because MMM is underpowered vs Z?) are all fooling themselves Anybody who doesn't use tanks in mid/late game and ONLY uses bio should be getting roflstomped by fungal growth all day The majority of my wins vs terran are when players overbuild bio into late game its basically a free win because I almost always have 3+ infestors | ||
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Rkie
United States1278 Posts
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UniQ.eu
Sweden82 Posts
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Nagano
United States1157 Posts
On July 14 2010 05:52 koppik wrote: For regional differences, Blizzard said recently (again) that people on the Asia server feel like Zerg is too powerful while NA/Europe servers feel Zerg is too weak. Zerg has continued to dominate the Asian scene in tournaments at least, deserved or not. Facts like these emphasize why players should just devote their time learning new and different strategies for their particular race before flocking to the forums and voting for their race as the most underpowered. We have real players like Day[9] reiterating this perspective, yet we still feel the need to rant on the forums about how every race but ours is overpowered. Adapt. | ||
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prodiG
Canada2016 Posts
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys. I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me. Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose. | ||
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silveryms
United States23 Posts
According to the results so far, ZvP is 94% balanced - favors protoss slightly TvP is 75% balanced - favors terran TvZ is 43% balanced - favors terran and ZvP seems to be the funnest matchup by far | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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Ronald_McD
Canada807 Posts
The poll seems to mirror my feelings though, except that the PvZ matchup according to the poll seems to be slightly Protoss favoured (yes it says fairly balanced, but the second highest picked one is Protoss favoured, although not by much) | ||
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Dance.jhu
United States292 Posts
On July 14 2010 06:45 Kiburn wrote: Thank you crybabies idRa and Artosis for brainwashing the Zerg Swarm Like you know better...I'd rather get information from those two (idrA atleast) than someone like you or 99% of the people posting on TL anyday. | ||
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greg098
United States13 Posts
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On July 14 2010 03:42 Icx wrote: I play Zerg: TvZ: Terran favoured I am definatly not saying that terran is overpowered, but with the power of mech (I am not gonna go as far to say that it is op, but it just a very strong solid playstyle that is troublesome for Z). And the tons and tons of openings and things that T can throw at you + maps as LT/kulas/incineration zone. So yes, favoured towards terran, but other maps + minor adjustments could really throw it back into the Z's favour. TvP/TvT/PvP I have no idea on on how the balance is, and in the case of the mirror how "fun" those are. ZvP: I would say fairly balanced. ZvZ: Still undecided, I am glad that it isn't all roach/hydra but I also dislike blings + ling/bling/muta 80% of the time just ends up in a big mess. Overall still fun, but it could use some help on the bling part. I'd say Zerg is favored. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On July 14 2010 04:21 DanielD wrote: If you're having trouble with early bio: Use forcefield and don't leave your base for awhile. Alternatively, leave your base very early and don't let T leave their base for awhile. Why people want to let me kite them forever I will never understand. Also, you don't HAVE to make that stupid void ray if you don't want to, since everyone is ready for it now anyway. Or even better, make it, and don't lose it trying to kill 3 scvs, run away if you see 5 marines and a starport. Alternatively you can just make sentries/zealots and make sure you chrono out charge, forcefield plus chargelots is very effective versus terran infantry. Not only do you not have to go down multiple tech paths, I wouldn't look at it like it's a bad thing... getting that stargate early means super effective scouting and excellent harass (phoenix) as well as game changing high DPS units (void rays ofc). And I dunno what league your in but if you're at storm tech, the battles ought to be bigger than 'small scale' unless you are rushing to it, which is pointless except vers marine spam. I really dislike one base protoss because it really has minimal ways of breaking a fast expanding terran. I actually do not enjoy void ray openings nor do I like double teching but it is what I have resorted to at this time. Disallowing terran from leaving his base is pretty easy against a 3 barracks no factory opener but with the more common marine ghost style, 2 barracks factory for a quick starport prevents you from camping below his ramp for an extended period. With marauder expands, he get map control long enough to take his expansion then bunkers hard against a 1 base mass build. Forcefielding him in is not an option here. The reason for double teching is Marauder expand is a free economic advantage against almost all protoss builds except void ray openers where they just die. Marauders beats every base gateway unit 1 on 1 and can take 0 damage from non chargelots. Marine ghost openers rape void ray builds. These two Terran openers both show the same signs while your scouting probe is alive and it is really difficult to differentiate them before you start on the tech path. To defend the marine ghost timing attack right before your expansion kicks in, you need to have rushed charge. For other 1 tech options. Charge rush will die to a cloaked banshee rush which is basically the equivalent to DT rush. The fast robo and stargate builds deter these banshee options since you can get obs out or phoenix. Fast stargate alone dies to marine ghost as I said before and robo builds are very expensive. 3 gate robo can be defended by a marauder expand with enough bunkering and marine ghost just emps your immortals to death. So since these 1 tech options are largely ineffective going 2 tech quickly covers your requirements. The power of the stargate isn't just in its scouting. It stops terrans from marauder expanding which is huge. They either need to marine ghost or get a viking. Both are more heavily one based focused strategies allowing you to more easily match his expansion timing. Lastly the storm. What I am referring to is the harass based style of current bionic terrans since the medivac allows super mobility while your main army is free to roam by 1aing all over the place. 2+ medivac drops with mainly marauders tears through static defense like it isn't there. So you have to rely on warpins and storm. This is where the small scale storm takes place and they are super ineffective with simple dodging. Small scale battles hugely favor the terran because of the 1:1 problem I mentioned forcing a larger scale defensive maneuver from protoss. When this occurs more holes start to open up and terran gets to deter expansions. You can say protoss has the same harass option (probably even stronger with the warp prism) but the terran static defense (planetary fortress) is vastly superior to cannons and protoss units lack the raw damage output to kill the PF in small scales. As for league. Have always been in highest league. Top50 in us elo rankings while the platinum system was still used. #1 diamond is some crappy division at the end of phase 1. Currently 300 diamond | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine. I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys. I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me. Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose. I don't think using your personal experiences as a base for every single person is really the right way to discuss something. Rather stop insulting people for no reason other than to insult them. If you feel they are wrong about certain aspects then explain why, don't just assume every single person that plays zvt and has an opinion about it is a moron. People complain about the SC2 section enough, why don't we start acting like adults here. ps: Do Zergs still go hydra in ZvT? | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On July 14 2010 04:56 iEchoic wrote: Another explanation could be that both Z and P don't want to play with T, and so the TvZ and TvP votes are mostly from T players - hence, the number of Z/P/T voters is still about even. Just saying; your argument is not very conclusive.These polls are always worthless because they're not equally sampled. Less T players than P or Z players voted in the polls (visible by the fact that less TvX matchups are 'most fun' than the other ones). I dunno if Idra and Artosis are misleading the public, or they know what they are talking about, but I noticed this stat from here sometime before. And also WoL is terran-based campaign, so Blizzard has some economic advantage in "breeding" more terran-loving new players with the current balance, because they are more likely to buy WoL, and not just try it, and wait for the other expansions. Now is the time when Blizzard and Activision need terran fans the most. It's either that or just some correlation with spoilt kids more likely to not pick terran, because mech can only be played by real men (ask any good terran player and he'll tell you). I'm not sure. Either way, it's not a big issue for me, each race can be played and get wins with. | ||
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Entropic
Canada2837 Posts
On July 14 2010 05:12 danl9rm wrote: You're reading a site like TL and expecting anything other than that? You make no sense. You want someone to come and definitively answer this question? It can't be done. Therefore, don your opinion hat and join in, or get out. That said, I struggle ZvT as well. Tanks that don't overkill are so deadly. I remember when people were complaining that tanks weren't any good. I hope you people remember who you are  Responding to the bold: As you can plainly see I clearly stated my opinion. I'm here to watch pro games (proleague/OSL/MSL/etc and eventually SC2 pro leauges) and watch user streams of pros. I like to discuss which PLAYERS I think are better because that is SUBJECTIVE and suited to personal TASTES/OPINIONS. Ultimately I pay no attention to the opinions of non-pros, ie. noobs (which includes myself) about what they think of what they percieve as the current state of balance (I can clearly remember the days of the cries of OMG BISU BUILD IMBA, 5Hatch Hydra IMBA, 2BASE CARRIER IMBA, +1 Zeal/Archon push imba, etc, etc). People need to stop blaming the game and improve themselves first. Matchup balance is pretty darn tight as of right now that its mostly up to MAPS and PLAYER SKILL that decide games. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Bullshit. Statistics say that Zerg loses way more ZvZs than Zerg. | ||
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prodiG
Canada2016 Posts
On July 14 2010 09:10 Numy wrote: I don't think using your personal experiences as a base for every single person is really the right way to discuss something. Rather stop insulting people for no reason other than to insult them. If you feel they are wrong about certain aspects then explain why, don't just assume every single person that plays zvt and has an opinion about it is a moron. People complain about the SC2 section enough, why don't we start acting like adults here. ps: Do Zergs still go hydra in ZvT? ...aren't opinions based on experience? | ||
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