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TvZ isn't really imba anymore.
Mech was the hardest thing and with the tanknervs and the ultrabuffs, you really should be able to win.
Correct me if I am wrong but as far as my memory serves m,e it is a single tanknerf as a direct result of some major buffs (Splashdmg+, build time+) so using the plural might be misleading.
Personally the 10damage haven't made any difference at all in my TvZs and ZvTs. I guess they were focussing TvT and TvP? Haven't played much Tanks in TvP though....
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On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues):
1/10
3/10
1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
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On July 14 2010 03:23 Sadistx wrote:
Just like the previous poll showed, the general public has no idea wtf it's talking about.
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
TvP is T favored.
ZvP is Z favored again.
After the game i just play i absolutely 100% agree fungal = rofl, atleast with fucking plague you had a way to save your army with this they hit 1 key aclick and your entire army dies, with the way that shit clumps up this is like 100x easier
PvZ is so fucking hard for protoss also, push out? what mass speedling counter? die.
or some other retarded shit like mutas that just lol rape rape rape all over your shit.
TvP LOL I EMP YOU CANT DODGE GG NO RE NOOB.
thats just me though.
Ive managed to BM quite a few people because of dumb shit like this -.-
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On July 14 2010 03:37 KnightOfNi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 03:25 Entropic wrote:
Man I sure do love OPINIONS threads.
Anyways heres what I think...
My Race v T, T favoured
My Race v Z, Z favoured
My Race v P, P favoured Pretty much the same here  . On a more serious note, I do think that TvZ is Z favored... ofc this is coming from a terran player lol. Fungal growth is just so ridiculous to deal with if you go bio, while ultras are nasty if you go mech... not very fun at all.
If you go mech and you let the zerg tech to ultras with enough bases to sustain heavy production, you're playing poorly. You used to be able to turtle with mech and a+move with 200 and be guaranteed to take out any late game army he can throw at you. You still have a huge window of opportunity when the zerg will only have lings, roaches, hydras, and possibly en route to ultras or broodlords, and these units all suck vs mech. The opportunity cost for teching to ultras is very high as well and it should be pretty easy for terrans to stomp over zergs well before ultras or broods become a challenge.
On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
Because you took a tiny, biased sample of 4 divisions.
I voted T favored vs zerg and protoss, zvp is evenly balanced, maybe with zerg favoritism. Protoss units are quite simply better in terms of effectiveness in direct combat per food and per resource, but zerg can really exploit mobility in that matchup.
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On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10 Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it. Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene). If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
Because your sample size is very very small and you can't force players to evenly choose a specific race to make everything look neat. Tons of players play their race for more than just balance reasons.
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On July 14 2010 11:03 Logo wrote:
Because your sample size is very very small and you can't force players to evenly choose a specific race to make everything look neat. Tons of players play their race for more than just balance reasons.
100 isn't that small of a sample size. The margin of error with a sample size that large is pretty small. In addition, my anecdotes definitely weren't meant as an end-all set of data, I was asking if anyone could find leagues where T is over-represented, because I can't. I'd like to see more.
That was an invitation to compile more data so we can find out more definitely.
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On July 14 2010 10:05 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 09:48 prodiG wrote:On July 14 2010 09:33 Sadistx wrote:On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote:
EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose. Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro. MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP. Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell. TvZ is definitely NOT T favored. i agree completely! the majority of zerg users don't seem to be using all the tools in the toolbox~ This is a rather strange concept. I would never have imagined a Terran telling a Zerg to use all the tools at his disposal when glancing at the races it seems T is the one with the massive toolbox. Are all Zerg players just completely limiting their scope of their race or is there something else at play? While I believe there's far too many things at play to say T is favoured in anything but the current time period, I do think maps in general seem to be narrowing the matchup into an unfavourable state. It's hard to tell any imbalances when working with such a limited scope of maps. I guess only time will tell the true reflection of the matchup. Then we can look back at perceived "facts" and laugh together.
The maps are an excellent point; whenever anyone says that I think about the 3rd expansion on LT... you can put tanks back there and hit EVERYTHING in the natural choke, so you can bunker the choke. Or the natural cliff. Etc etc etc and it's true for quite a few maps.
In fact, scrap station, LT, Kulas, and Steppes ALL have abusable natural low/high ground, fairly low ratio of open ground to chokes/ramps and easy to take thirds for the T (except scrap) I think that's the TvZ "imbalance" more than anything. That's four out of the seven beta maps.
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On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found. Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10 Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it. Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene). If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok?
sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else.
unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
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I will say that I believe tvz is only in the terran's favor because zerg do not play correctly. There are a lot of things zerg can do that they aren't. I almost never see zerg try to delay pushes by forcing seiges, almost never see infested terran, which is very good at sniping out tanks now. I see people teching to brood lords instead of ultras, and that's terrible because ultras are fucking awesome now if there are no marauders on the field.
That said I think part of the problem is that terran is not nearly as scoutable as protoss. In order for protoss to deny scouting he has to get anti air which cost considerable gas and put his tech behind. Terran can just spam 4-6 marines and his banshees or what have you will be out without delay. It is extremely hard to scout what terran is doing compared to protoss, and even more important.
Also I think zerg are still a bit too dependent on roach/hydra as mainstays in america at least. They seem to think that the choice is either spire or den, but there are alternatives in late warren, pit and hive tech off two base that are well worth the effort.
I mean if terran goes into hellions and the warren goes down just before he gets there, it could be a total loss. Infestors are just too damned good. If you get four of them you can use them to take out banshees without any help whatsoever using fungal growth and infested terran, or use them to stop hellions or infantry even. And they can be used to mess with seiged tanks due to the extreme range of infested terran and the fact that it can be used while burrowed.
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I almost never see zerg try to delay pushes by forcing seiges, almost never see infested terran, which is very good at sniping out tanks now.
Are you talking about a single tank on a cliff or an atackforce? Because you will not be able to snipe anything with infested terrans agains an attackfore... You cant even get them to the tanks.
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On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found. Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10 Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it. Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene). If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues? i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
I know how you feel about TvZ but since you have been playing 1/3 Terran, what are your feelings on current TvP?
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On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found. Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10 Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it. Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene). If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues? i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay?
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When I say snipe tanks, I mean you can use infested terran while burrowed, right? So you just spawn an infested terran right next to one of the tanks and all the others fire on it. If there are 3+ seige tanks this works wonders, and it is cheap. You don't even need burrow if there is a cliff nearby (like he is pushing your main on steppes or lt).
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Too many people think of "balance" only as the end game for pros who've had years to master every possible situation. That's nonsense. 99% of players will never even come close to approaching that level -- shouldn't the races be balanced for them, too?
Blizzard needs to think harder about ease-of-use and frustration in race balance. From that standpoint, zerg is severely disadvantaged in ZvP. Zerg can't win that match-up without defending at least one extra well-saturated expansion, scouting very diligently, countering well, and microing well with surrounds. Protoss have half a dozen ways to win low-level games off a single simple build order (2-gate zealot rush, cannon rush), and they can win most games easily by turtling up in their first base and rolling out with an unapproachable ball of death -- stalkers, colossi, immortals, and/or zealots. No micro or macro required. They also get a cloaked, flying scout, and fast-building stationary defenses that shoot both air and ground. Everything's easy for them at any level of ZvP below plat or maybe high gold.
Zerg has a couple of unnecessary sources of frustration. They lack early anti-air and detection. Both of these lead to many games that just aren't fun... you play for 5 or 10 minutes and then it ends in three seconds of rock-paper-scissors. These annoying losses only stop once the zerg reaches a skill level many players never will, able to properly scout these attacks and/or remember to prepare for them on time while simultaneously dealing with everything else that's going on.
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On July 14 2010 13:59 Anzat wrote:
Too many people think of "balance" only as the end game for pros who've had years to master every possible situation. That's nonsense. 99% of players will never even come close to approaching that level -- shouldn't the races be balanced for them, too?
If the game is balanced at pro-level, that means that if a person loses to a certain unit or tactic they consider imbalanced, they can counter it by improving their skill level - which is ultimately the goal.
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On July 14 2010 13:52 onmach wrote:
When I say snipe tanks, I mean you can use infested terran while burrowed, right? So you just spawn an infested terran right next to one of the tanks and all the others fire on it. If there are 3+ seige tanks this works wonders, and it is cheap. You don't even need burrow if there is a cliff nearby (like he is pushing your main on steppes or lt).
Ah I see! You meant Infestors as "Zealotbombs"! Hm... worth a try. Still I doubt it will work against a clustered force which is all a terran needs to push you. And for the lategame this is useless since Ravens will be in play and you wont get to the tanks without burrow.
If the game is balanced at pro-level, that means that if a person loses to a certain unit or tactic they consider imbalanced, they can counter it by improving their skill level - which is ultimately the goal.
I can counter a lot of shit that is thrown against me at the moment by improving my skill level in every matchup but the game isn't balanced.
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On July 14 2010 13:20 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote:On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found. Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10 Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it. Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene). If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues? i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate. Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay? actually its just an emphasis of the fact that theres no top level rts players playing terran and only a couple playing protoss, and win rates and tournament wins are still pretty balanced racially. if anything its been tilting away from zerg.
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On July 14 2010 14:02 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
I can counter a lot of shit that is thrown against me at the moment by improving my skill level in every matchup but the game isn't balanced.
I said if the game is balanced at pro level, then you can counter it by improving your skill, not if you can counter it, the game is balanced.
a->b != b->a
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I said if the game is balanced at pro level, then you can counter it by improving your skill, not if you can counter it, the game is balanced.
a->b != b->a
Ah kekeke, got it and agree!
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On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote:
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok?
sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else.
unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Basically what I came here to post. When people start arguing over what race is best, etc, very few on TL are even talking about the top 0.01%. Diamond league is meaningless to the conversation. All that matters is the pro-gamers and so few of them are even on SC2 yet that all we have to go by is a smidgen of informed opinions on the matter.
I'm willing to take Tester or Artosis or Idra's views on this to heart. I mean, honestly, if Jaedong and Flash switched to SC2 who would win? Those are the types of questions we need to be answering here, not what happens in platinum.
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EPT
