There have been polls about balance before, but I think many of us would be interested in seeing what the TL community thinks about the balance for the individual matchups. Is Blizzard doing a good job with all of the matchups? Which are the most balanced?
At this stage I really think Terran is too good and Protoss and Zerg are about right. There was a poll at the end of phase 1 asking which race you thought was the most powerful and Terran had gotten 400 votes while Protoss had 80 and Zerg had 70.
I think that TvZ is the only matchup that really needs fixing. With the numerous suggestions that tank smart AI should be taken out, I think it would make TvZ at least somewhat more balanced without having a huge impact on TvP. It simply means you'll have to have better tank control, which isn't a bad thing.
I think people thinking terran is favored is largely due to no one being close to mastering this game, so they listen to the pros like IdrA who keep saying that terran is favored. That being said, if IdrA says that Zerg v Mech is impossible, something is wrong with the game.
ZvZ and ZvP are very fun matchups (zvz on certain maps, on some not, these which allow roach play are pretty good) and quite balanced (yea zvz can't be imba ). ZvP is cool, because there are quite much strats viable for both sides, scouting matters, both sides can apply pressure and there are no big imbas. ZvT is pretty hard from zerg perspective, either because of lack of good strats developed or because of terran imbaness. I won't judge, it's too early to tell.
On July 14 2010 03:25 Stane wrote: I think people thinking terran is favored is largely due to no one being close to mastering this game, so they listen to the pros like IdrA who keep saying that terran is favored. That being said, if IdrA says that Zerg v Mech is impossible, something is wrong with the game.
I have to disagree. I think people are smart enough to make their balance decisions for themselves. I expect most of these votes to be coming from personal experience.
On July 14 2010 03:25 Entropic wrote: Man I sure do love OPINIONS threads.
Anyways heres what I think...
My Race v T, T favoured My Race v Z, Z favoured My Race v P, P favoured
Pretty much the same here .
On a more serious note, I do think that TvZ is Z favored... ofc this is coming from a terran player lol. Fungal growth is just so ridiculous to deal with if you go bio, while ultras are nasty if you go mech... not very fun at all. I think T>P and that TvT is a horrible matchup to play...but its better than PvP so I'll stick to terran. I LOOOOOVE TvP though, so much fun to watch massive mmm balls go against massive protoss warpgate/collossi/temp balls and seeing the terrible terrible damage XD. Its great fun to play too...macro mode FTW.
I think entropic has a good point, we all tend to feel like the other opponent has the advantage. As a protoss, I play very few times against terrans. On the US server, I mostly play against zergs, could this be contributing to the majority opinion that terrans > all other races.
I was a pure T player through Phase 1, got up to the top of diamond but I was in an easy division, so it was probably like top 20 diamond. All I heard from everyone was how OP T is against everything, in particular protoss, so I decided to switch races to P for phase 2. I'm at the top of diamond again, and I've won over 90% of my PvT's so far, I only lost a PvT in placement matches. (Lost a lot of PvZ's, but I have no build for that M/U t.t)
In my experience most of the people complaining about OP's haven't tried to learn the other race. You don't realise how effective it is to force the MM ball to stim and then run away, until its been done to you. Or how effective infestors are vs any T build until your watch your entire army get abused and annihilated by it.
I am definatly not saying that terran is overpowered, but with the power of mech (I am not gonna go as far to say that it is op, but it just a very strong solid playstyle that is troublesome for Z). And the tons and tons of openings and things that T can throw at you + maps as LT/kulas/incineration zone. So yes, favoured towards terran, but other maps + minor adjustments could really throw it back into the Z's favour.
TvP/TvT/PvP I have no idea on on how the balance is, and in the case of the mirror how "fun" those are.
ZvP: I would say fairly balanced.
ZvZ: Still undecided, I am glad that it isn't all roach/hydra but I also dislike blings + ling/bling/muta 80% of the time just ends up in a big mess. Overall still fun, but it could use some help on the bling part.
I would say Terran is the strongest overall.. Don't know if I would say "overpowered", but playing against terran is always scary... Never a moment where I scout and say "Oh, I can deal with that no problem"
I have to say the poll is pretty much as I though. ZvP is very good right now. ZvZ used to be one of my favorite matchups, but well those days are gone
On July 14 2010 03:25 Stane wrote: I think people thinking terran is favored is largely due to no one being close to mastering this game, so they listen to the pros like IdrA who keep saying that terran is favored. That being said, if IdrA says that Zerg v Mech is impossible, something is wrong with the game.
I have to disagree. I think people are smart enough to make their balance decisions for themselves. I expect most of these votes to be coming from personal experience.
people were talking about imballances even before they had a chance to try out the game even b4 the beta started just based on some opinions of some dudes playing the alpha version at BlizzCon
remember the 10-pool-queen imba discussions?
a few other examples are : 2 rax marauders imba 2 proxy gates-zealots imba
TL staff had to announce that any1 announcing some kind of imba strategy without proof will be banned
About IdrA, old fans will remember him from saying similar crap in SC1: in TvP, DT drop is unbeatable Right now Flash sweeps the floor with any1 as a terran in SC1:BW Right now Sen sweeps the floor with any1 as a zerg in SC2:beta(even before the tank dmg nerf to 50)
look at the facts, people, there is only skill it's the player who wins the game, not the race
Tester also said he believes that Terran is too strong in an interview with artosis that was taken around the end of beta phase 1, but his opinion may have changed since then...
Since I play protoss I feel PvZ is balanced and PvT is terran favored.
PvZ will feel protoss favored if the zerg has not discovered ultralisks. Colossus rape the more common hydralisk mass armies.
PvT is Terran favored because of the power and mobility of bionic. Small force marauder assaults are ridiculously cost efficient. Warpin defense can be negated because 1 marauder > 1 gateway unit in small force situations. Storms are so easily dodged in these small scale battles so you are left fighting head on. Protoss have resorted to going down 2 tech paths on one base to deal with Terrans early shenanigans as well (whitera void/charge, huk robo/charge for 2 recent examples)
Even though these are just people's opinions about who is the most favored. I expect to see after a year, people will discover all kinds of new ways to dominate in the game with each race. I am guessing that most people feel terran is the strongest due to their units all having range, and balls + range tend to do exceptionally well when the other player doesn't have a counter to the ball. Not to mention that in 2v2's, the terran players usually have higher scores and more dominating armies due to the range in a big battle.
But I do think that PvZ is the most fun because age old battle of aliens in outer space =D
imo it's all fairly balanced except protoss vs terran - very hard for protoss to win in the late game. all terran has to do is turtle and harrass a bit.
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
i laughed.
keep dreaming brah.
Posts like these from silver league unknowns is why I very rarely post on SC2 forums. They don't know how to play, misinterpret every available piece of info they have and you can't change their opinion :/
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
i laughed.
keep dreaming brah.
Posts like these from silver league unknowns is why I very rarely post on SC2 forums. They don't know how to play, misinterpret every available piece of info they have and you can't change their opinion :/
On July 14 2010 03:54 kNyTTyM wrote: Since I play protoss I feel PvZ is balanced and PvT is terran favored.
PvZ will feel protoss favored if the zerg has not discovered ultralisks. Colossus rape the more common hydralisk mass armies.
PvT is Terran favored because of the power and mobility of bionic. Small force marauder assaults are ridiculously cost efficient. Warpin defense can be negated because 1 marauder > 1 gateway unit in small force situations. Storms are so easily dodged in these small scale battles so you are left fighting head on. Protoss have resorted to going down 2 tech paths on one base to deal with Terrans early shenanigans as well (whitera void/charge, huk robo/charge for 2 recent examples)
If you're having trouble with early bio: Use forcefield and don't leave your base for awhile. Alternatively, leave your base very early and don't let T leave their base for awhile. Why people want to let me kite them forever I will never understand.
Also, you don't HAVE to make that stupid void ray if you don't want to, since everyone is ready for it now anyway. Or even better, make it, and don't lose it trying to kill 3 scvs, run away if you see 5 marines and a starport. Alternatively you can just make sentries/zealots and make sure you chrono out charge, forcefield plus chargelots is very effective versus terran infantry. Not only do you not have to go down multiple tech paths, I wouldn't look at it like it's a bad thing... getting that stargate early means super effective scouting and excellent harass (phoenix) as well as game changing high DPS units (void rays ofc).
And I dunno what league your in but if you're at storm tech, the battles ought to be bigger than 'small scale' unless you are rushing to it, which is pointless except vers marine spam.
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
i laughed.
keep dreaming brah.
Posts like these from silver league unknowns is why I very rarely post on SC2 forums. They don't know how to play, misinterpret every available piece of info they have and you can't change their opinion :/
Funny, was about to say the same thing.
Post SOMETHING of substance if you're going to argue/be a dick. Sadist actually gave a reason for his opinion.
Polls like these are worth reading just for the rage posts. I'm currently a Random player, but for the first phase played Zerg.
I would say that in it's current iteration TvZ is Terran favored. I think it's possible to change that given some time, but as it is, Terran has all the options for early aggression, and once they get to mid/late-game Tanks just utterly rule the day. That's not to say that a Zerg player can't win or something, it's not that bad. I think that once Zerg players figure out how to safely stop Terran harassment without bending over backwards, the match-up will balance itself.
ZvP is definitely my favorite match up. It's well balanced, dynamic, and just plain fun. It may even be slightly Zerg favored these days, since we've learned to beat back the various Protoss timing pushes.
On July 14 2010 03:23 Sadistx wrote: Just like the previous poll showed, the general public has no idea wtf it's talking about.
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
TvP is T favored.
ZvP is Z favored again.
I totally agree with you. tanks are not so good against hydras. fungal growth is more OP than BW's dark swarm. against dark swarm T can just move back his army and thats it, but with fungal growth you can't move, you will be flanked and it does damage. there is nothing better than the lava system and broodlords/ultras/infestors are the shit.
I'm actually going to clarify what I meant when I said TvZ is Z favored.
If you go for an MMM build and don't pressure zerg's 2nd hatch, it becomes increasingly hard to deal with Z's units with just bio. After the ultra buffs and zergs getting much better with infestors, pure bio play becomes non-viable past mid-game.
The overwhelming amount of counters Z has to the MMM ball makes it very hard to go the equivalent of SKTerran in SC2. So you are essentially forced to go mech to deal with that. On higher levels MMM will just get rolled unless you go for a 17CC off 2 marines, which is very risky.
MMM supported by 2-3 tanks still kinda works, but it depends heavily on keeping tanks alive.
Terran mech is absolutely fine vs Z, it's MMM that's weak.
On July 14 2010 04:46 Sadistx wrote: I'm actually going to clarify what I meant when I said TvZ is Z favored.
If you go for an MMM build and don't pressure zerg's 2nd hatch, it becomes increasingly hard to deal with Z's units with just bio. After the ultra buffs and zergs getting much better with infestors, pure bio play becomes non-viable past mid-game.
The overwhelming amount of counters Z has to the MMM ball makes it very hard to go the equivalent of SKTerran in SC2. So you are essentially forced to go mech to deal with that. On higher levels MMM will just get rolled unless you go for a 17CC off 2 marines, which is very risky.
MMM supported by 2-3 tanks still kinda works, but it depends heavily on keeping tanks alive.
Terran mech is absolutely fine vs Z, it's MMM that's weak.
I promise I don't mean to provoke anything, but do you think Terran really should be able to roll a Zerg player without ever pressuring his FE and using only tier 1/1.5 units? I don't really think that speaks to a racial imbalance; to me it sounds like that's the way it should be.
On July 14 2010 04:46 Sadistx wrote: I'm actually going to clarify what I meant when I said TvZ is Z favored.
If you go for an MMM build and don't pressure zerg's 2nd hatch, it becomes increasingly hard to deal with Z's units with just bio. After the ultra buffs and zergs getting much better with infestors, pure bio play becomes non-viable past mid-game.
The overwhelming amount of counters Z has to the MMM ball makes it very hard to go the equivalent of SKTerran in SC2. So you are essentially forced to go mech to deal with that. On higher levels MMM will just get rolled unless you go for a 17CC off 2 marines, which is very risky.
MMM supported by 2-3 tanks still kinda works, but it depends heavily on keeping tanks alive.
Terran mech is absolutely fine vs Z, it's MMM that's weak.
But wouldn't that be like saying bio is weak against P in BW? Yet that doesn't make the overall match-up imbalanced.
These polls are always worthless because they're not equally sampled. Less T players than P or Z players voted in the polls (visible by the fact that less TvX matchups are 'most fun' than the other ones).
Poll just goes to show that the average reader on TL is stupid and complains too much. It just gives them reason to blame game imbalance when they lose. I really hate these kind of threads because they just feed the game balance victimization syndrome.
On July 14 2010 04:46 Sadistx wrote: I'm actually going to clarify what I meant when I said TvZ is Z favored.
If you go for an MMM build and don't pressure zerg's 2nd hatch, it becomes increasingly hard to deal with Z's units with just bio. After the ultra buffs and zergs getting much better with infestors, pure bio play becomes non-viable past mid-game.
The overwhelming amount of counters Z has to the MMM ball makes it very hard to go the equivalent of SKTerran in SC2. So you are essentially forced to go mech to deal with that. On higher levels MMM will just get rolled unless you go for a 17CC off 2 marines, which is very risky.
MMM supported by 2-3 tanks still kinda works, but it depends heavily on keeping tanks alive.
Terran mech is absolutely fine vs Z, it's MMM that's weak.
Isn't part of the game plan of going for a MMM build to try and pressure zergs early while taking your own expansions and transitioning into further tech units? If you're not doing that then of course MMM is weak. It is not Z is favored in ZvT then, it is the fact that the build hasn't been executed properly.
It's like saying.. if you are going for a colossus drop.. and then leaving your warp prism sitting there and not dropping it. Then of course a colossus drop is going to be weak.
On July 14 2010 04:56 iEchoic wrote: These polls are always worthless because they're not equally sampled. Less T players than P or Z players voted in the polls (visible by the fact that less TvX matchups are 'most fun' than the other ones).
Poll just goes to show that the average reader on TL is stupid and complains too much. It just gives them reason to blame game imbalance when they lose. I really hate these kind of threads because they just feed the game balance victimization syndrome.
Too true. Polls are like top 10 rankings. The purpose is not to be accurate, but to generate artificial controversy for the sake of entertainment.
They sure are fun when you're trying to get through the work day, though.
On July 14 2010 04:46 Sadistx wrote: I'm actually going to clarify what I meant when I said TvZ is Z favored.
If you go for an MMM build and don't pressure zerg's 2nd hatch, it becomes increasingly hard to deal with Z's units with just bio. After the ultra buffs and zergs getting much better with infestors, pure bio play becomes non-viable past mid-game.
The overwhelming amount of counters Z has to the MMM ball makes it very hard to go the equivalent of SKTerran in SC2. So you are essentially forced to go mech to deal with that. On higher levels MMM will just get rolled unless you go for a 17CC off 2 marines, which is very risky.
MMM supported by 2-3 tanks still kinda works, but it depends heavily on keeping tanks alive.
Terran mech is absolutely fine vs Z, it's MMM that's weak.
I promise I don't mean to provoke anything, but do you think Terran really should be able to roll a Zerg player without ever pressuring his FE and using only tier 1/1.5 units? I don't really think that speaks to a racial imbalance; to me it sounds like that's the way it should be.
You have a point, but you have to realize lategame MMM is at least 2-2 upgraded and supported by medivacs and nighthawks, all of which are higher tier and require a lot of gas. Marauders are pretty much a direct counter to ultras and banelings, but even then ultra baneling/speedling just roll over bio.
Even then, without tanks and thors MMM is much weaker than SKTerran was in BW.
Early pressure can turn into you allining them, because if you try to pressure them on maps like metalopolis and misjudge whether they were getting ling speed, you lose your entire army off 1 base, which is pretty much autoloss.
On July 14 2010 03:25 Stane wrote: I think people thinking terran is favored is largely due to no one being close to mastering this game, so they listen to the pros like IdrA who keep saying that terran is favored. That being said, if IdrA says that Zerg v Mech is impossible, something is wrong with the game.
I have to disagree. I think people are smart enough to make their balance decisions for themselves. I expect most of these votes to be coming from personal experience.
people were talking about imballances even before they had a chance to try out the game even b4 the beta started just based on some opinions of some dudes playing the alpha version at BlizzCon
remember the 10-pool-queen imba discussions?
a few other examples are : 2 rax marauders imba 2 proxy gates-zealots imba
TL staff had to announce that any1 announcing some kind of imba strategy without proof will be banned
About IdrA, old fans will remember him from saying similar crap in SC1: in TvP, DT drop is unbeatable Right now Flash sweeps the floor with any1 as a terran in SC1:BW Right now Sen sweeps the floor with any1 as a zerg in SC2:beta(even before the tank dmg nerf to 50)
look at the facts, people, there is only skill it's the player who wins the game, not the race
Quoted for truth, a million times over. Let the actual gameplays evolve before everyone starts crying about "imbalance". This sounds like a world of warcraft forum.
On July 14 2010 03:25 Entropic wrote: Man I sure do love OPINIONS threads.
You're reading a site like TL and expecting anything other than that? You make no sense. You want someone to come and definitively answer this question? It can't be done. Therefore, don your opinion hat and join in, or get out.
That said, I struggle ZvT as well. Tanks that don't overkill are so deadly. I remember when people were complaining that tanks weren't any good. I hope you people remember who you are
I was in Mid silver pre copper kill, and my friend was mid copper, I play toss he plays terran, It is very disturbing my measly 65% win percentage against him. Terran is a wee bit OP.
On July 14 2010 03:25 Stane wrote: I think people thinking terran is favored is largely due to no one being close to mastering this game, so they listen to the pros like IdrA who keep saying that terran is favored. That being said, if IdrA says that Zerg v Mech is impossible, something is wrong with the game.
I have to disagree. I think people are smart enough to make their balance decisions for themselves. I expect most of these votes to be coming from personal experience.
people were talking about imballances even before they had a chance to try out the game even b4 the beta started just based on some opinions of some dudes playing the alpha version at BlizzCon
remember the 10-pool-queen imba discussions?
a few other examples are : 2 rax marauders imba 2 proxy gates-zealots imba
TL staff had to announce that any1 announcing some kind of imba strategy without proof will be banned
About IdrA, old fans will remember him from saying similar crap in SC1: in TvP, DT drop is unbeatable Right now Flash sweeps the floor with any1 as a terran in SC1:BW Right now Sen sweeps the floor with any1 as a zerg in SC2:beta(even before the tank dmg nerf to 50)
look at the facts, people, there is only skill it's the player who wins the game, not the race
Quoted for truth, a million times over. Let the actual gameplays evolve before everyone starts crying about "imbalance". This sounds like a world of warcraft forum.
On July 14 2010 04:58 OneOther wrote: T>>P T>>Z Z==P
lol what happened to Z>>P?
anyways, my thoughts (I play Z): T>Z: Terran just has more flexibility and options in this matchup. Plus, it has "hard counter" units against every unit the Zerg has (hellion vs ling, thor vs muta, marauder vs roach, tank vs hydra). Z>P: I think Zerg has more options in this matchup. 90% of the time, the game is decided by a single Protoss attack. If they pull it off, then they win. Otherwise, they lose. I would love to see more DT/warpgate absusage, though, since everyone seems so adamant about a colossus timing attack. Plus, if Zerg wins the gas war, there's no stopping a mass much tech switch. T?P: No comment
I think that terran vs zerg is currently terran favored, but only because people haven't realized how to play zerg correctly yet, and once they do the matchup will be basically impossible for terran, muta/ling/baneling is just so strong against everything except mech, once mech gets harder to do, the matchup will be impossible for terran.
On July 14 2010 05:15 silveryms wrote: I think it's interesting that the cross-race matchup people think is the most balanced, ZvP, is also the matchup people think is the most fun.
It's interesting, and I do think it correlates, but it's not the main reason. I think the biggest reason ZvP is the most fun is the difference between the races. Zerg is many and weak. Protoss is few and strong.
It's like watching Zangief fight Chun-Li. It's just fun.
On July 14 2010 04:58 OneOther wrote: T>>P T>>Z Z==P
lol what happened to Z>>P?
anyways, my thoughts (I play Z): T>Z: Terran just has more flexibility and options in this matchup. Plus, it has "hard counter" units against every unit the Zerg has (hellion vs ling, thor vs muta, marauder vs roach, tank vs hydra). Z>P: I think Zerg has more options in this matchup. 90% of the time, the game is decided by a single Protoss attack. If they pull it off, then they win. Otherwise, they lose. I would love to see more DT/warpgate absusage, though, since everyone seems so adamant about a colossus timing attack. Plus, if Zerg wins the gas war, there's no stopping a mass much tech switch. T?P: No comment
Very conveniently you take out broodlords, ultras and banelings from TvZ. No wonder that TvZ poll is so broken. Hellions without upgrades don't even counter speedlings that well.
I'm glad everyone else loves ZvP. Even games that I lose are pretty fun.
All the mirror matchups are absolute garbage in terms of fun.
I do think Terran is slightly OP, but I also think thats its the hardest race to play at all but the highest skill levels. In my opinion, its because of unit production. Protoss has Warp-in, which is easy mode, Zerg has hatcheries, which have always bee easy mode as far as I'm concerned, and Terran has like a million different buildings once you consider reactor/ tech lab combinations. This skill imbalance needs to be toned down a bit in the future or Terran will always be worse at lower skill levels when higher skill levels are balanced. In this expansion, I imagine, that is made up for because of the singleplayer being Terran only. In the future, however, I consider this a problem that ought to be fixed.
On July 14 2010 04:58 OneOther wrote: T>>P T>>Z Z==P
lol what happened to Z>>P?
anyways, my thoughts (I play Z): T>Z: Terran just has more flexibility and options in this matchup. Plus, it has "hard counter" units against every unit the Zerg has (hellion vs ling, thor vs muta, marauder vs roach, tank vs hydra). Z>P: I think Zerg has more options in this matchup. 90% of the time, the game is decided by a single Protoss attack. If they pull it off, then they win. Otherwise, they lose. I would love to see more DT/warpgate absusage, though, since everyone seems so adamant about a colossus timing attack. Plus, if Zerg wins the gas war, there's no stopping a mass much tech switch. T?P: No comment
Very conveniently you take out broodlords, ultras and banelings from TvZ. No wonder that TvZ poll is so broken. Hellions without upgrades don't even counter speedlings that well.
Okay, Vikings >> Broodlords, and I haven't had much experience with Ultralisks except the one time I tech switched to Ultralisks in a won game, I lost against Marauders (mainly because they took so long to build and he attacked at a good timing). I agree that the Baneling doesn't have a hard counter. But seriously, I just listed pretty every unit in the Zerg arsenal. It's all counterable, and to a ridiculous degree. Like, no amount of Mutas is going to beat 5 3/3 Thors. A ball of like 18 Marauders can kill approximately infinity Roaches. Hellions with the igniter upgrade rape lings silly (yes, you HAVE to get the upgrade). Plus, Broodlords and Ultras are tier 3, and "very conveniently" take a really long time to tech to (hive + ultra den/greater spire build time is flat-out ridiculous), leaving you with a fat, juicy timing window to crush your opponent... And the fact that Terran units >> Zerg units was only half of my point about balance. I can sort of live with it, because the Zerg macro mechanic is so strong and easily abused. But you combine it with the fact that Terran just has more options, especially on maps like Kulas Ravine and Lost Temple, and I don't see how you can argue that Z > T. There are tons of viable timing attacks and pressure builds (marine/hellion, marine tank, marauder/hellion, etc.). On top of that, you have countless harass builds (thor drop, cloak banshee, banshee/viking, hellion drop, pre-igniter hellion, tank drop), some of which are nearly unstoppable on certain maps. As well as reaper openings, which again, on some maps, completely deny a Zerg fast expand. All of these things open up options for the Terran and take away options from the Zerg. THAT's why TvZ is imbalanced.
For regional differences, Blizzard said recently (again) that people on the Asia server feel like Zerg is too powerful while NA/Europe servers feel Zerg is too weak. Zerg has continued to dominate the Asian scene in tournaments at least, deserved or not.
I think that TvP is Terran favored. There is no way for Protoss to counter that huge midgame MMM+Viking+(sometimes) tank ball. People just say "use storm", but templars are expensive and extremely high up the tech tree too. Unless i'm on four bases (which is extremely difficult when two dozen marauders can run up the ramp and snipe the nexus in seconds) i can never produce enough high templar to prevent them getting owned with EMP, and either way storm only ends up killing at most five or six units at once when I manage to get one off.
Collossi are promising but you need four or five built up or they will get steamrolled, and vikings completely nullify them before you can do much. I've played a lot of games at diamond level and i just can't seem to get the composition that lets P beat the T ball right yet i guess. Stalker heavy, plus zealots and sentries, gets owned by marauders, zeal heavy gets owned by slow+marines, sentry heavy just gets EMP'd, etc.
It's not that theres an "imbalance" here, it's just that playstyles have yet to evolve to the point where the terran can be confronted in the mid game. I ALWAYS get my wins in the early game either with some fast immortal/warpgate gayness, or rarely in long games where i simply out macro my opponent and steamroll him.
Either way it feels stupid that i should have to rely on my opponent being bad to get wins. I think that marauders need to be a bit more expensive and build a bit slower. Would fix a lot of things imo, because once there's a big ball of them there's nothing you can do to stop it.
I'm playing Zerg and Protoss (mainly zerg) was Diamond (or platinum when it was the highest you could get) on both phase.
ZvP: I'd say it's pretty balanced or a bit in the favor of Zergs. Protoss totaly got the early game while zerg has the late game. Protoss can do alot of timming pushes and some shenanigans but if zergs can survive it's GG TOSSY DUDE! :D
ZvT: I'd say it's a 70% terran victory. Simply put that with Hellion/Vicking harass (we could also put reaper harass but since I haven't seen this in a while...), Thors that negate mutalisk and Ultralisk(with the 250mm) and tanks that kill every other units in the zerg harsenal... it's a clear terran choice. Yes fungal is good but only against the MMM ball not against Tmech... overall terran is a powerfull race economicaly wise and unit wise. Everyone says that zerg mobility is the answer yet... only Zerglings are really fast and the only way to get units somewhat fast is to get the OoOoOozzeee spread but.. 1 observer and bye bye.... no more ooozeee!! That being said, i've spoke with alot of high level players such as SLush, Machine.... and they all said that it was a pretty hard matchup!
PvT: I'd say that it's pretty equal, maybe a small bit favored for terran but... since well microed HT can kill ghosts and late army are pretty equal... both have nice timing pushes... leads me to think that the machup is well balanced.
You don't realise how effective it is to force the MM ball to stim and then run away, until its been done to you.
Yes, run away from the blob of troops moving as fast as a bunch of Mutalisks.
1. Forcefield 2. Blink 3. Sac a couple slower units - remember that their entire army just lost 1/4 of its health so its OK if you lose a couple. (And before anyone says anything, for #3 I'm talking about BEFORE medivacs come around)
What I hate about playing ZvT is terran's # of viable openings I've seen the following done by top terrans regularly (depending on maps/positions): double rax/fact >> marine/marauder/tank push double rax/fact >> marauder/hellion early push(way before mutas) double fact/rax >> marine/hellion/tank push double fact/rax >> upgraded hellion harass or marine/hellion >> thor/tanks + expo 1/1/1 >> hellion to banshee harass >> bio + tanks OR pure mech 1/1/1 >> early hellion+early viking for minor harass/scout >> thor drop rax/fact/cc >> turtle to mech >> roflstop >> win kulas ravine > mass vikings very powerful LT > cliffing w/ tanks with a build/opening that looks nearly identical to banshee or thor drop which drives me nuts so I just veto LT
that being said, all the strats have optimal counters but most of them involve early dedication which don't transition well if you guess wrong or timing is way off (too early =bad econ or too late=dead)
and to the people who think this matchup is imbalanced favoring Z (because MMM is underpowered vs Z?) are all fooling themselves Anybody who doesn't use tanks in mid/late game and ONLY uses bio should be getting roflstomped by fungal growth all day The majority of my wins vs terran are when players overbuild bio into late game its basically a free win because I almost always have 3+ infestors
well, i despise warpgate proxies and DTs, so PvP sucks for me. PvZ was the best MU, but zealot build time increased and now i almost always get run over by 6 pools. so that leaves PvT to play, but i think that TvT is the best to watch.
Everyone keeps talking about how imbalanced ZvT is and I just can't agree ( as a zerg player). I think the races are on equal footing if both players know the MU fairly well. The trick for zerg players seems to be to spread those creep tumors like crazy (that's just my experience), since you get extra speed + vision versus their immobile army
On July 14 2010 05:52 koppik wrote: For regional differences, Blizzard said recently (again) that people on the Asia server feel like Zerg is too powerful while NA/Europe servers feel Zerg is too weak. Zerg has continued to dominate the Asian scene in tournaments at least, deserved or not.
Facts like these emphasize why players should just devote their time learning new and different strategies for their particular race before flocking to the forums and voting for their race as the most underpowered. We have real players like Day[9] reiterating this perspective, yet we still feel the need to rant on the forums about how every race but ours is overpowered. Adapt.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
This thread isn't intended to determine what race is overpowered. Instead, I was hoping for data about which *matchups* are most balanced and which *matchups* are most fun.
According to the results so far,
ZvP is 94% balanced - favors protoss slightly TvP is 75% balanced - favors terran TvZ is 43% balanced - favors terran
Terran > protoss for sure. No doubt there. I really am not sure about tvz because I have next to no experience int hat matchup. pvz I am not sure. I think it is fairly balanced, but I dont know.
I'm afraid to vote in this poll because I'm really bad at the game. The poll seems to mirror my feelings though, except that the PvZ matchup according to the poll seems to be slightly Protoss favoured (yes it says fairly balanced, but the second highest picked one is Protoss favoured, although not by much)
I am definatly not saying that terran is overpowered, but with the power of mech (I am not gonna go as far to say that it is op, but it just a very strong solid playstyle that is troublesome for Z). And the tons and tons of openings and things that T can throw at you + maps as LT/kulas/incineration zone. So yes, favoured towards terran, but other maps + minor adjustments could really throw it back into the Z's favour.
TvP/TvT/PvP I have no idea on on how the balance is, and in the case of the mirror how "fun" those are.
ZvP: I would say fairly balanced.
ZvZ: Still undecided, I am glad that it isn't all roach/hydra but I also dislike blings + ling/bling/muta 80% of the time just ends up in a big mess. Overall still fun, but it could use some help on the bling part.
On July 14 2010 03:54 kNyTTyM wrote: Since I play protoss I feel PvZ is balanced and PvT is terran favored.
PvZ will feel protoss favored if the zerg has not discovered ultralisks. Colossus rape the more common hydralisk mass armies.
PvT is Terran favored because of the power and mobility of bionic. Small force marauder assaults are ridiculously cost efficient. Warpin defense can be negated because 1 marauder > 1 gateway unit in small force situations. Storms are so easily dodged in these small scale battles so you are left fighting head on. Protoss have resorted to going down 2 tech paths on one base to deal with Terrans early shenanigans as well (whitera void/charge, huk robo/charge for 2 recent examples)
If you're having trouble with early bio: Use forcefield and don't leave your base for awhile. Alternatively, leave your base very early and don't let T leave their base for awhile. Why people want to let me kite them forever I will never understand.
Also, you don't HAVE to make that stupid void ray if you don't want to, since everyone is ready for it now anyway. Or even better, make it, and don't lose it trying to kill 3 scvs, run away if you see 5 marines and a starport. Alternatively you can just make sentries/zealots and make sure you chrono out charge, forcefield plus chargelots is very effective versus terran infantry. Not only do you not have to go down multiple tech paths, I wouldn't look at it like it's a bad thing... getting that stargate early means super effective scouting and excellent harass (phoenix) as well as game changing high DPS units (void rays ofc).
And I dunno what league your in but if you're at storm tech, the battles ought to be bigger than 'small scale' unless you are rushing to it, which is pointless except vers marine spam.
I really dislike one base protoss because it really has minimal ways of breaking a fast expanding terran. I actually do not enjoy void ray openings nor do I like double teching but it is what I have resorted to at this time. Disallowing terran from leaving his base is pretty easy against a 3 barracks no factory opener but with the more common marine ghost style, 2 barracks factory for a quick starport prevents you from camping below his ramp for an extended period. With marauder expands, he get map control long enough to take his expansion then bunkers hard against a 1 base mass build. Forcefielding him in is not an option here.
The reason for double teching is Marauder expand is a free economic advantage against almost all protoss builds except void ray openers where they just die. Marauders beats every base gateway unit 1 on 1 and can take 0 damage from non chargelots. Marine ghost openers rape void ray builds. These two Terran openers both show the same signs while your scouting probe is alive and it is really difficult to differentiate them before you start on the tech path. To defend the marine ghost timing attack right before your expansion kicks in, you need to have rushed charge.
For other 1 tech options. Charge rush will die to a cloaked banshee rush which is basically the equivalent to DT rush. The fast robo and stargate builds deter these banshee options since you can get obs out or phoenix. Fast stargate alone dies to marine ghost as I said before and robo builds are very expensive. 3 gate robo can be defended by a marauder expand with enough bunkering and marine ghost just emps your immortals to death. So since these 1 tech options are largely ineffective going 2 tech quickly covers your requirements.
The power of the stargate isn't just in its scouting. It stops terrans from marauder expanding which is huge. They either need to marine ghost or get a viking. Both are more heavily one based focused strategies allowing you to more easily match his expansion timing.
Lastly the storm. What I am referring to is the harass based style of current bionic terrans since the medivac allows super mobility while your main army is free to roam by 1aing all over the place. 2+ medivac drops with mainly marauders tears through static defense like it isn't there. So you have to rely on warpins and storm. This is where the small scale storm takes place and they are super ineffective with simple dodging. Small scale battles hugely favor the terran because of the 1:1 problem I mentioned forcing a larger scale defensive maneuver from protoss. When this occurs more holes start to open up and terran gets to deter expansions. You can say protoss has the same harass option (probably even stronger with the warp prism) but the terran static defense (planetary fortress) is vastly superior to cannons and protoss units lack the raw damage output to kill the PF in small scales.
As for league. Have always been in highest league. Top50 in us elo rankings while the platinum system was still used. #1 diamond is some crappy division at the end of phase 1. Currently 300 diamond
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
I don't think using your personal experiences as a base for every single person is really the right way to discuss something. Rather stop insulting people for no reason other than to insult them. If you feel they are wrong about certain aspects then explain why, don't just assume every single person that plays zvt and has an opinion about it is a moron. People complain about the SC2 section enough, why don't we start acting like adults here.
On July 14 2010 04:56 iEchoic wrote: These polls are always worthless because they're not equally sampled. Less T players than P or Z players voted in the polls (visible by the fact that less TvX matchups are 'most fun' than the other ones).
Another explanation could be that both Z and P don't want to play with T, and so the TvZ and TvP votes are mostly from T players - hence, the number of Z/P/T voters is still about even. Just saying; your argument is not very conclusive.
I dunno if Idra and Artosis are misleading the public, or they know what they are talking about, but I noticed this stat from here sometime before. And also WoL is terran-based campaign, so Blizzard has some economic advantage in "breeding" more terran-loving new players with the current balance, because they are more likely to buy WoL, and not just try it, and wait for the other expansions. Now is the time when Blizzard and Activision need terran fans the most.
It's either that or just some correlation with spoilt kids more likely to not pick terran, because mech can only be played by real men (ask any good terran player and he'll tell you). I'm not sure. Either way, it's not a big issue for me, each race can be played and get wins with.
On July 14 2010 03:25 Entropic wrote: Man I sure do love OPINIONS threads.
You're reading a site like TL and expecting anything other than that? You make no sense. You want someone to come and definitively answer this question? It can't be done. Therefore, don your opinion hat and join in, or get out.
That said, I struggle ZvT as well. Tanks that don't overkill are so deadly. I remember when people were complaining that tanks weren't any good. I hope you people remember who you are
Responding to the bold: As you can plainly see I clearly stated my opinion.
I'm here to watch pro games (proleague/OSL/MSL/etc and eventually SC2 pro leauges) and watch user streams of pros. I like to discuss which PLAYERS I think are better because that is SUBJECTIVE and suited to personal TASTES/OPINIONS. Ultimately I pay no attention to the opinions of non-pros, ie. noobs (which includes myself) about what they think of what they percieve as the current state of balance (I can clearly remember the days of the cries of OMG BISU BUILD IMBA, 5Hatch Hydra IMBA, 2BASE CARRIER IMBA, +1 Zeal/Archon push imba, etc, etc).
People need to stop blaming the game and improve themselves first. Matchup balance is pretty darn tight as of right now that its mostly up to MAPS and PLAYER SKILL that decide games.
I am definatly not saying that terran is overpowered, but with the power of mech (I am not gonna go as far to say that it is op, but it just a very strong solid playstyle that is troublesome for Z). And the tons and tons of openings and things that T can throw at you + maps as LT/kulas/incineration zone. So yes, favoured towards terran, but other maps + minor adjustments could really throw it back into the Z's favour.
TvP/TvT/PvP I have no idea on on how the balance is, and in the case of the mirror how "fun" those are.
ZvP: I would say fairly balanced.
ZvZ: Still undecided, I am glad that it isn't all roach/hydra but I also dislike blings + ling/bling/muta 80% of the time just ends up in a big mess. Overall still fun, but it could use some help on the bling part.
I'd say Zerg is favored.
Bullshit. Statistics say that Zerg loses way more ZvZs than Zerg.
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
I don't think using your personal experiences as a base for every single person is really the right way to discuss something. Rather stop insulting people for no reason other than to insult them. If you feel they are wrong about certain aspects then explain why, don't just assume every single person that plays zvt and has an opinion about it is a moron. People complain about the SC2 section enough, why don't we start acting like adults here.
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro.
MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP.
Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell.
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro.
MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP.
Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell.
TvZ is definitely NOT T favored.
i agree completely! the majority of zerg users don't seem to be using all the tools in the toolbox~
The Protoss matchups are all pretty balanced. If they are any imbalance, I'd way PvT is slightly T favored simply because of how retardedly strong siege tanks are. Even then, PvZ and PvT are both pretty well balanced atm.
I found PvP easier than PvZ easier than PvT. But I only played from the Protoss perspective so I can't really comment on one race being easier or harder than another.
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro.
MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP.
Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell.
TvZ is definitely NOT T favored.
i agree completely! the majority of zerg users don't seem to be using all the tools in the toolbox~
You got to be kidding, this argument keeps comming up all the time and is horribly weak. If you havn't noticed Z units are very limited, there simply not many more "tools" to explore that actually are effective.
t>>z still, because the nerfs to siege tanks are irrelevant, I think everyone understod it by now. It's not the damage thats making it imba it's the no-overkill AI which demolish the low-hp Z army. Now with roach as 2 supply, endgame you have no meatshields for hydras, which just melts. Ultras relies entirely on positioning, and if you catch T out of position he made a mistake. With the chokes on these maps Z ground is just worthless beyond T2 soley because of siege.
That said Z isn't defenseless. It revolved around getting more expos while trying to deny him as much while teching quickly into broods with corruptors for the vikings.
Again: Tanks are what''s causing the troubles in TvZ because Z ground is crap in comparison. No amount of damage reduction is going to help; the main problem is the no-overkill.
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro.
MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP.
Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell.
TvZ is definitely NOT T favored.
i agree completely! the majority of zerg users don't seem to be using all the tools in the toolbox~
This is a rather strange concept. I would never have imagined a Terran telling a Zerg to use all the tools at his disposal when glancing at the races it seems T is the one with the massive toolbox. Are all Zerg players just completely limiting their scope of their race or is there something else at play?
While I believe there's far too many things at play to say T is favoured in anything but the current time period, I do think maps in general seem to be narrowing the matchup into an unfavourable state. It's hard to tell any imbalances when working with such a limited scope of maps.
I guess only time will tell the true reflection of the matchup. Then we can look back at perceived "facts" and laugh together.
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro.
MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP.
Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell.
TvZ is definitely NOT T favored.
i agree completely! the majority of zerg users don't seem to be using all the tools in the toolbox~
I think it is funny how every Terran seems to have an answer for TvZ when they obviously haven't played Zerg for more than 10 games.
Anyways....a funny Teamspeak quote I witnessed yesterday that fits into the context:
A: "Dude, how did you get that FFA achievement against the 7 Insane Computers?! Have you used the liftoff on the island, did you rush them or what?!?"
I feel that PvT is like rock paper scissors. If you go phx and hes goes MMM you are behind. If he goes 1/1/1 fast raven and you try to dt expo you are behind. If he goes MMM and you dt FE you are ahead. If he goes 1/1/1 and you go phx you are ahead. I also feel that MMM vs robo builds are kind of even.
Mech was the hardest thing and with the tanknervs and the ultrabuffs, you really should be able to win.
Sure, Marauders really kill Ultras, but Bio was never the problem! Everything except Marauders pretty much gets eaten alive, especially Thors and Tanks.
And if T has Mech Tech, it's hard to get out enough Marauders to beat the Ultras (after all, Ultras don't just receive more damage from marauders, but they also deal more damage to them!).
look at the difference between tester and every other protoss player then realize no one near tester's caliber plays terran then consider that 90% of the top tier rts players playing sc2 right now chose zerg
if the game were balanced zerg would be winning 70%+ at high levels.
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro.
MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP.
Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell.
TvZ is definitely NOT T favored.
i agree completely! the majority of zerg users don't seem to be using all the tools in the toolbox~
I think it is funny how every Terran seems to have an answer for TvZ when they obviously haven't played Zerg for more than 10 games.
Anyways....a funny Teamspeak quote I witnessed yesterday that fits into the context:
A: "Dude, how did you get that FFA achievement against the 7 Insane Computers?! Have you used the liftoff on the island, did you rush them or what?!?"
B: "Well, I chose 7 Zergs as enemys and meched."
A: "..."
I played zerg for the first half of beta phase 1.
That doesn't necessarily mean I have any idea what I'm talking about At any rate, Idra brings up a good point. We need someone "of tester's caliber" to play T :D
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
On July 14 2010 10:46 IdrA wrote: look at the difference between tester and every other protoss player then realize no one near tester's caliber plays terran then consider that 90% of the top tier rts players playing sc2 right now chose zerg
if the game were balanced zerg would be winning 70%+ at high levels.
I've heard rumors that Tester will be switching to Terran somewhere. Is that true?
Personally, I think that Terran's no-overkill tanks (that damage "nerf" did nothing) are just killing the balance of the game. Other than that, the game's pretty well balanced now.
i think most people don't really have insight in the highest level pro scene. Sure, we watch the zotac cup and the invitationals and all that good stuff, but it would be nice to know more about the korean players.
I personally believe that the maps from the blizzard map pool are quite imbalanced and maybe that would be the starting point to really balance the matchups.
Mech was the hardest thing and with the tanknervs and the ultrabuffs, you really should be able to win.
Correct me if I am wrong but as far as my memory serves m,e it is a single tanknerf as a direct result of some major buffs (Splashdmg+, build time+) so using the plural might be misleading.
Personally the 10damage haven't made any difference at all in my TvZs and ZvTs. I guess they were focussing TvT and TvP? Haven't played much Tanks in TvP though....
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
On July 14 2010 03:23 Sadistx wrote: Just like the previous poll showed, the general public has no idea wtf it's talking about.
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
TvP is T favored.
ZvP is Z favored again.
After the game i just play i absolutely 100% agree fungal = rofl, atleast with fucking plague you had a way to save your army with this they hit 1 key aclick and your entire army dies, with the way that shit clumps up this is like 100x easier
PvZ is so fucking hard for protoss also, push out? what mass speedling counter? die. or some other retarded shit like mutas that just lol rape rape rape all over your shit.
TvP LOL I EMP YOU CANT DODGE GG NO RE NOOB.
thats just me though.
Ive managed to BM quite a few people because of dumb shit like this -.-
On July 14 2010 03:25 Entropic wrote: Man I sure do love OPINIONS threads.
Anyways heres what I think...
My Race v T, T favoured My Race v Z, Z favoured My Race v P, P favoured
Pretty much the same here .
On a more serious note, I do think that TvZ is Z favored... ofc this is coming from a terran player lol. Fungal growth is just so ridiculous to deal with if you go bio, while ultras are nasty if you go mech... not very fun at all.
If you go mech and you let the zerg tech to ultras with enough bases to sustain heavy production, you're playing poorly. You used to be able to turtle with mech and a+move with 200 and be guaranteed to take out any late game army he can throw at you. You still have a huge window of opportunity when the zerg will only have lings, roaches, hydras, and possibly en route to ultras or broodlords, and these units all suck vs mech. The opportunity cost for teching to ultras is very high as well and it should be pretty easy for terrans to stomp over zergs well before ultras or broods become a challenge.
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
Because you took a tiny, biased sample of 4 divisions.
I voted T favored vs zerg and protoss, zvp is evenly balanced, maybe with zerg favoritism. Protoss units are quite simply better in terms of effectiveness in direct combat per food and per resource, but zerg can really exploit mobility in that matchup.
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
Because your sample size is very very small and you can't force players to evenly choose a specific race to make everything look neat. Tons of players play their race for more than just balance reasons.
Because your sample size is very very small and you can't force players to evenly choose a specific race to make everything look neat. Tons of players play their race for more than just balance reasons.
100 isn't that small of a sample size. The margin of error with a sample size that large is pretty small. In addition, my anecdotes definitely weren't meant as an end-all set of data, I was asking if anyone could find leagues where T is over-represented, because I can't. I'd like to see more.
That was an invitation to compile more data so we can find out more definitely.
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro.
MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP.
Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell.
TvZ is definitely NOT T favored.
i agree completely! the majority of zerg users don't seem to be using all the tools in the toolbox~
This is a rather strange concept. I would never have imagined a Terran telling a Zerg to use all the tools at his disposal when glancing at the races it seems T is the one with the massive toolbox. Are all Zerg players just completely limiting their scope of their race or is there something else at play?
While I believe there's far too many things at play to say T is favoured in anything but the current time period, I do think maps in general seem to be narrowing the matchup into an unfavourable state. It's hard to tell any imbalances when working with such a limited scope of maps.
I guess only time will tell the true reflection of the matchup. Then we can look back at perceived "facts" and laugh together.
The maps are an excellent point; whenever anyone says that I think about the 3rd expansion on LT... you can put tanks back there and hit EVERYTHING in the natural choke, so you can bunker the choke. Or the natural cliff. Etc etc etc and it's true for quite a few maps.
In fact, scrap station, LT, Kulas, and Steppes ALL have abusable natural low/high ground, fairly low ratio of open ground to chokes/ramps and easy to take thirds for the T (except scrap) I think that's the TvZ "imbalance" more than anything. That's four out of the seven beta maps.
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
I will say that I believe tvz is only in the terran's favor because zerg do not play correctly. There are a lot of things zerg can do that they aren't. I almost never see zerg try to delay pushes by forcing seiges, almost never see infested terran, which is very good at sniping out tanks now. I see people teching to brood lords instead of ultras, and that's terrible because ultras are fucking awesome now if there are no marauders on the field.
That said I think part of the problem is that terran is not nearly as scoutable as protoss. In order for protoss to deny scouting he has to get anti air which cost considerable gas and put his tech behind. Terran can just spam 4-6 marines and his banshees or what have you will be out without delay. It is extremely hard to scout what terran is doing compared to protoss, and even more important.
Also I think zerg are still a bit too dependent on roach/hydra as mainstays in america at least. They seem to think that the choice is either spire or den, but there are alternatives in late warren, pit and hive tech off two base that are well worth the effort.
I mean if terran goes into hellions and the warren goes down just before he gets there, it could be a total loss. Infestors are just too damned good. If you get four of them you can use them to take out banshees without any help whatsoever using fungal growth and infested terran, or use them to stop hellions or infantry even. And they can be used to mess with seiged tanks due to the extreme range of infested terran and the fact that it can be used while burrowed.
I almost never see zerg try to delay pushes by forcing seiges, almost never see infested terran, which is very good at sniping out tanks now.
Are you talking about a single tank on a cliff or an atackforce? Because you will not be able to snipe anything with infested terrans agains an attackfore... You cant even get them to the tanks.
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
I know how you feel about TvZ but since you have been playing 1/3 Terran, what are your feelings on current TvP?
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay?
When I say snipe tanks, I mean you can use infested terran while burrowed, right? So you just spawn an infested terran right next to one of the tanks and all the others fire on it. If there are 3+ seige tanks this works wonders, and it is cheap. You don't even need burrow if there is a cliff nearby (like he is pushing your main on steppes or lt).
Too many people think of "balance" only as the end game for pros who've had years to master every possible situation. That's nonsense. 99% of players will never even come close to approaching that level -- shouldn't the races be balanced for them, too?
Blizzard needs to think harder about ease-of-use and frustration in race balance. From that standpoint, zerg is severely disadvantaged in ZvP. Zerg can't win that match-up without defending at least one extra well-saturated expansion, scouting very diligently, countering well, and microing well with surrounds. Protoss have half a dozen ways to win low-level games off a single simple build order (2-gate zealot rush, cannon rush), and they can win most games easily by turtling up in their first base and rolling out with an unapproachable ball of death -- stalkers, colossi, immortals, and/or zealots. No micro or macro required. They also get a cloaked, flying scout, and fast-building stationary defenses that shoot both air and ground. Everything's easy for them at any level of ZvP below plat or maybe high gold.
Zerg has a couple of unnecessary sources of frustration. They lack early anti-air and detection. Both of these lead to many games that just aren't fun... you play for 5 or 10 minutes and then it ends in three seconds of rock-paper-scissors. These annoying losses only stop once the zerg reaches a skill level many players never will, able to properly scout these attacks and/or remember to prepare for them on time while simultaneously dealing with everything else that's going on.
On July 14 2010 13:59 Anzat wrote: Too many people think of "balance" only as the end game for pros who've had years to master every possible situation. That's nonsense. 99% of players will never even come close to approaching that level -- shouldn't the races be balanced for them, too?
If the game is balanced at pro-level, that means that if a person loses to a certain unit or tactic they consider imbalanced, they can counter it by improving their skill level - which is ultimately the goal.
On July 14 2010 13:52 onmach wrote: When I say snipe tanks, I mean you can use infested terran while burrowed, right? So you just spawn an infested terran right next to one of the tanks and all the others fire on it. If there are 3+ seige tanks this works wonders, and it is cheap. You don't even need burrow if there is a cliff nearby (like he is pushing your main on steppes or lt).
Ah I see! You meant Infestors as "Zealotbombs"! Hm... worth a try. Still I doubt it will work against a clustered force which is all a terran needs to push you. And for the lategame this is useless since Ravens will be in play and you wont get to the tanks without burrow.
If the game is balanced at pro-level, that means that if a person loses to a certain unit or tactic they consider imbalanced, they can counter it by improving their skill level - which is ultimately the goal.
I can counter a lot of shit that is thrown against me at the moment by improving my skill level in every matchup but the game isn't balanced.
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay?
actually its just an emphasis of the fact that theres no top level rts players playing terran and only a couple playing protoss, and win rates and tournament wins are still pretty balanced racially. if anything its been tilting away from zerg.
On July 14 2010 14:02 Turbo.Tactics wrote: I can counter a lot of shit that is thrown against me at the moment by improving my skill level in every matchup but the game isn't balanced.
I said if the game is balanced at pro level, then you can counter it by improving your skill, not if you can counter it, the game is balanced.
On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote: i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Basically what I came here to post. When people start arguing over what race is best, etc, very few on TL are even talking about the top 0.01%. Diamond league is meaningless to the conversation. All that matters is the pro-gamers and so few of them are even on SC2 yet that all we have to go by is a smidgen of informed opinions on the matter.
I'm willing to take Tester or Artosis or Idra's views on this to heart. I mean, honestly, if Jaedong and Flash switched to SC2 who would win? Those are the types of questions we need to be answering here, not what happens in platinum.
On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote: i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Diamond league is meaningless to the conversation.
Remember that this game is still in beta. The people we think of as 'pros' on this game play in the diamond leagues and don't have records much more phenomenal than that of other top diamond players.
The discrepancy between pro and high-end diamond is going to increase as the pro scene develops, but right now the difference isn't gigantic (though still significant).
I didn't read the entire thread, so this may have been pointed out, but did anyone else notice the Terran Bias of the OP? In all the match-ups involving Terran, T was listed first. Could potentially skew the results if everyone is thinking of Terran first, and all the nasty things they can do to people.
for once I agree with IdrA?? (whats this world coming to)
If we had a Tester or someone playing terran right now, or even if IdrA was to play terran in foreign tournaments, with his CJ experience, it would dominate White-Ra and DIMAGA and everyone with no problem right now. Not saying IdrA is better than White-ra and DIMAGA, Cause I definitely dont think he is, but he has the korean mechanics to maximize the potential of a race.. it would just not be pretty.
Of course, Maka is putting up strong results right now but hes not what you call a "top-tier" gamer.. If we see someone like Upmagic or Cool, or even if Moon or Check came to play terran.. It would be a scary scary sight.
As a diamond level terran player, zerg is far and away my hardest matchup. In order to have any chance at winning, I have to harass constantly throughout the entire game, and I have to push before infestors show up. Mutalisks I can deal with fairly easily with marine/thor, but infestors are a joke. If I go infantry, BAM! fungal growth. If I go mech, BAM! neural parasite on my thors while the roaches clean up. The only way I can handle a zerg army with 4+ infestors is by catching them out of position, which is not an easy task, considering tanks take 3 years to siege up.
On July 14 2010 13:52 onmach wrote: When I say snipe tanks, I mean you can use infested terran while burrowed, right? So you just spawn an infested terran right next to one of the tanks and all the others fire on it. If there are 3+ seige tanks this works wonders, and it is cheap. You don't even need burrow if there is a cliff nearby (like he is pushing your main on steppes or lt).
Zealotboms and Infestedbombs do work, but they often just aren't worth it. You're better off using the energy for FG or NP. The reason why unit bombing worked so well in BW was due to overkill. Now, there is no overkill so your bombing will often not yield very positive results at all.
My honest opinion is: Re-implement tank overkill = balanced game
I'm willing to take Tester or Artosis or Idra's views on this to heart. I mean, honestly, if Jaedong and Flash switched to SC2 who would win? Those are the types of questions we need to be answering here, not what happens in platinum.
Diamond league is meaningless to the conversation.
So just because I am not playing the game on the so called "prolvl" my observations are meaningless?
Why do we even have threads with balance discussions then?
On July 14 2010 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:My honest opinion is: Re-implement tank overkill = balanced game
Units with an instant attack (no moving projectiles) don't overkill in SC2. It has been the case since patch 0. It's not just tanks. Banelings, for instance, don't overkill. I think roaches don't "overkill" as well.
I think the matchup poll should be changed a little; an option should be added for the other way around on different race matchups, so that you have all 9 choices.
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay?
actually its just an emphasis of the fact that theres no top level rts players playing terran and only a couple playing protoss, and win rates and tournament wins are still pretty balanced racially. if anything its been tilting away from zerg.
You can't really say "its been tilting away from zerg", what is your sample size in tournaments that happened in phase 2, like 3 tournaments? If it's been tilting from Z, who are the top terrans that entered the scene that are making it this way?
You also cant look at different patches and just lump all tournament wins of all time together. It has to be a lot of games on 1 patch, and there simply haven't been enough tournaments yet after T nerfs to confirm that TvZ is still somehow imbalanced in favor of T.
if IdrA was to play terran in foreign tournaments, with his CJ experience, it would dominate White-Ra and DIMAGA and everyone with no problem right now.
That's utterly and completely false, but I would actually pay money to see TvP or TvZ idra vs WhiteRa and Dimaga respectively. I'm sure the ukranian beasts will prove you wrong.
The main reason I believe for the TvZ "imbalance" is the level of micro and macro needed to outplay a T Mech (really high) since its only glaring weakness is terrible mobility. In order to abuse that, Z needs to abuse expansions and increase overall mobility to a point where T is forced to split up his force or be flanked. At that point though, it's still rather difficult, because at any time, engaging the main force requires much less effort for the T than the Z. There is a small window when the Tanks are unsieged when Z could make a surprise flank or unburrow, but still this is difficult with the great sight Vikings provide.
The only composition I can think of atm that could straight up battle a T Mech (which for Z is still very dependent on composition position) is roaches in front to tank the Tank volleys, hydra following behind for vikings + dps, and broodlords for overall awesomeness. Once the hydras are out, however, it's easy game for Mech once again.
On July 14 2010 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:My honest opinion is: Re-implement tank overkill = balanced game
Units with an instant attack (no moving projectiles) don't overkill in SC2. It has been the case since patch 0. It's not just tanks. Banelings, for instance, don't overkill. I think roaches don't "overkill" as well.
Wow.. ever since new patch I'm having even more trouble vs T and P... especially every single game vs P it's guaranteed i'm gona get rushed and have to prepare for it while P can easily expand and I can't right after I finally beat it off.
IMO all of the TvX matchups are pretty close to balanced, with slight edges in terran's favour. But TvP turns into complete shit lategame when protoss can just warp in templars everywhere so you can't deny expansions at all. It's really stupid how, if you try to attack an expo, if your army isn't vastly superior to theirs, they can just warp in templars and storm/feedback everything immediately.
In TvP, there are ghosts. T wins that one, unless the toss perfectly micros, which the terran doesn't have to do. Don't even try to tell me a terran fears templar like a toss fears ghosts, "oh look, I'll dodge the storm, take equivalent to a few hits, and be on my merry way" compared to "wow, all my units just got their life knocked in half and my casters are all useless, guess I'll run for it while a bunch of my units get picked off."
ZvT, I have a lot of trouble with too, that might be because I find it hard to transition away from roaches and hydras. Infestors are good, but I'm sure a ghost could be just as effective against the infestor as they are against templar. Not to mention ghosts do serious damage to hyrdas, mutas, and lings.
PvZ, it's the matchup to see. They go together so well. Too bad they are both loosers in the grand scheme of things.
It's not that mech is impossibly hard to deal with as Zerg, it's actually not nearly as hard as people make it out to be. The problem is the huge time frame that Terran denies scouting. Basically anything that Terran rolls out of their base with may have to be dealt with on the fly. If they transition continuously, then they can really get Zerg on the ropes because they have to deal with each change in real time and don't have the time to get ahead. I don't just mean different units completely, but rather the ratios of the composition. There are different appropriate responses to Tank-heavy mech versus Thor-heavy mech or even Hellion-heavy mech.
What I typically notice in the matchup is that the player that sets the tempo and forces the other into a chain of responses first is likely to win. Between wall mechanics and the sheer number of early options of a Terran, they obviously have more capacity for early pressure than Zerg.
If the matchup is truly unbalanced, then I think one or both of these reasons are the source.
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay?
actually its just an emphasis of the fact that theres no top level rts players playing terran and only a couple playing protoss, and win rates and tournament wins are still pretty balanced racially. if anything its been tilting away from zerg.
You can't really say "its been tilting away from zerg", what is your sample size in tournaments that happened in phase 2, like 3 tournaments? If it's been tilting from Z, who are the top terrans that entered the scene that are making it this way?
You also cant look at different patches and just lump all tournament wins of all time together. It has to be a lot of games on 1 patch, and there simply haven't been enough tournaments yet after T nerfs to confirm that TvZ is still somehow imbalanced in favor of T.
since the patch that fixed tank splash, and especially since the 2 supply roach, terrans have definitely been winning more and more tournaments. all of the smaller foreign stuff like zotac, esl, craftcup, gosucoaching, as well as maka and loner or hannibal taking an aiur master's thing, maka winning the big gom invitational. and, once again, you're completely ignoring the point that almost all of the top players were established players in starcraft and a rare few from other games. there are tons of accomplished players playing zerg, then you have tester playing protoss, and the best terran in the world was a war3 amateur who never really did much.
On July 14 2010 03:42 Gnial wrote: I was a pure T player through Phase 1, got up to the top of diamond but I was in an easy division, so it was probably like top 20 diamond. All I heard from everyone was how OP T is against everything, in particular protoss, so I decided to switch races to P for phase 2. I'm at the top of diamond again, and I've won over 90% of my PvT's so far, I only lost a PvT in placement matches. (Lost a lot of PvZ's, but I have no build for that M/U t.t)
In my experience most of the people complaining about OP's haven't tried to learn the other race. You don't realise how effective it is to force the MM ball to stim and then run away, until its been done to you. Or how effective infestors are vs any T build until your watch your entire army get abused and annihilated by it.
OP threads are silly.
This.....
I play terran mainly (99%) and my friend plays toss. Every once and a while we find it fun to switch everything up. When I play I usually go 1/1/1 instead of MM because the 1/1/1 is much safer vs alot of things the toss can go, VRays and DT are an example of this. But my friend was having alot of trouble vs MM that other players would go. After we did one of our I play toss he plays terran matches his win rate vs MM in the early game moved from somewhere low to pretty high I would say.
As for zvt have you ever tried using kamakazi overlords filled with suicidal banelings. I promise you that some people out there have and my tanks don't like it very much. Even if it doesn't kill the tanks it will kill all of the support units as MM and hellion both get clobbered by banelings.
Its all about tank smart-firing.. Remove that bullshit from the game and the game is basically balanced. Right now, theres no point in drawing 2-3 units off to draw all their tank fire away, because only 1 tank fires to kill them then your main army still gets raped. Doing a zealot drop with a prism is pointless also, because the tanks wont instantly target them and kill their own tanks with splash. TvT would be WAY more interested if tanks werent super smart too.. Its the perfect fix to every issue in the balance, all with one simple change
Dont see why blizzard is so stupid to realize this.
Zerg has a lot of great players in Asia playing Zerg. Granted, most of them switched to Zerg after Protoss got a few nerfs and roaches were 1 supply with absurd regeneration, so it's not like it was just random chance.
Still, didn't the last Aiur tournament right before the beta's end have 7 zergs and one terran in the top 8? The 17173 tournament ended up pretty zerg-y. Though, a terran won #3 for that (Maka fighting!).
Last ASM, Ro8: Gerrard (Zerg) v Artosis (Zerg) Cezanne (Zerg) v Luffy (Zerg) Ace (Protoss) v IdrA (Zerg) Commitment (Zerg) v Sen (Zerg)
Though, ASM#3 was won by a Terran, so Asian terrans aren't that dismal. Ensnare and Rainbow (who ended up, despite what he said in his interview, laddering a ton) have done pretty well in the clan tournaments, though they didn't go deep (well, Rainbow qualified) in the 17173 tournament or any ASM. Ensnare did well in some XP tournaments I think. PJ almost beat Cool in the 17173. Maka has been doing well in both. Hannibal, Dayfly, Loner, and Ozil are also notable.
I have always said, the zerg's high mobility and ability to adapt macro wise is a big advantage over the other 2 races. Random players probably understand this, doing a speedling attack and then a zealot one will feel like someone's putting them in chains. Speed means a lot, it means the zerg engages whenever he pleases, counterattacks in a mere seconds and runs away unscathed. Protoss don't have that luxury, except with blink stalkers, and to some extent phoenixs, terran late game still have some quite fast units.
In my opinion and from what i see, terran's army is the most powerful right now. For instance why do they have such a huge bonus aggainst buildings? They can simply take 10 marauders, one stimm, and there goes the hatchery / nexus. It's ridiculous how high their DPS.
This is why ZvT is so difficult atm. Firstly the nerf to roach hydra was uncalled for an really harsh, now roaches don't stand a chance against tanks, and hydras are pretty weak to hellions. If we actually look at all the Terran mech units they are all hard counters to the zerg units. Tank is weak to pretty much no ground unit from the zerg, except maybe ultras but that is t3, it rapes everything else. Thor rapes mutas, corruptors cant shoot ground and broodlords, again t3, plus thors are pretty decent against ground units too. And just to add salt to the wounds hellions are a hard counter for lings and hydras. Oh, and also they have vikings for overlord harass.
This might be bad but if you compare it to BW, it's tanks, with smart AI, where the turrets can move and does higher dmg to air, and can shoot ground, and mutas can't be micro'ed anymore. Oh and there is no DS or lukers. Instead we have fungal growth, not that useful against tanks, and NP, which although is good, you got to get in range and have enough infestors after getting the upgrade to control like 30-40% of his tanks to stand a chance, which is a massive investment for a lot of infestors, assuming his hellions don't rape them first.
Who are the people voting TvT is fine? TvT is the worst matchup I've ever played in any RTS in my entire life (ZvZ may be worse - I don't play Z, but that looks bad also). I kind of expected more from SC2 being such a legendary franchise, but TvT is a complete pile of shit right now. Every single ladder match is a viking/tank snoozefest.
PvP is more fine than TvT? Really? Every time I read a poll on this site it just makes me think the people here are voting without having any idea wtf they're talking about.
in the first phase of the beta i was gold and i always thought that pvz is pretty easy. especially after the 2supply-for-roaches-patch... don't know, maybe i was lucky with my opponents though.
I feel it's T>>P, Z>T and not sure about ZvP but i can imagine it's a bit Z favored because corruptors own Collo big time while stalkers do laughable damage to them.
I personally play terran. And TvT is indeed a boring tank/viking fest, similar to BW TvT.
I feel that TvZ is mainly favouring T in lower level to mid level (maybe up till plat/low diamond) as these Zerg players find it difficult to deal with things Terran can put out. Especially tanks, at lower level they probably just rush their units in, getting everything obliterated. Or MMM, many people at plat or below don't really use infestors. With that being said, at higher level Zerg player will have to do many more things then a terran in a clash to actually stand a chance. Dropping Zerglings on tanks/ tunneling roaches/ flanking etc and these strat can be easily countered. Yea so in a nutshell terrans have it easier during a fight.
(should had made it as you have to pick 1 race and then vote for that race and that race's only, matchups) I've played all races and I am good diamond player with protoss and maybe high platinum with zerg, and from both perspectives I really feel that this matchup is protoss favored
Seriously Z people should stop whining, I'm diamond T player maybe I suck but I'm struggling against Zerg.. First I don't think I have other choice than going mech since bio is raped by FG + Banelings and later by Ultras now that they are immune to stun I must agree that mech is a bit powerful but Z has many counter : NP (12s is enough to end a fight.. seriously), burrowed roaches kick asses and ultras are quite strong, people should stop denying them.. I think the only problem is the cliff on LT, they should had a destructible rock so that Z can access their cliff and prevent them from Thor drop
On July 14 2010 15:32 Turbo.Tactics wrote: I am still sticking with my theory that Blizzard wants imbalance for the release date. My guess is that the majority of casuals will start playing online with Terran because they feel familiar due to the campaign.
You are not alone, so let's see how many others find the logic in doing this.
Poll: Blizzard profits from WoL(T) slightly Terran-favored? (more T fans)
Nonsense (24)
73%
Makes sense (9)
27%
33 total votes
Your vote: Blizzard profits from WoL(T) slightly Terran-favored? (more T fans)
Note, this is not a big issue. Blizzard could even officially announce it. After all, if it's true, they'll likely do the same around the next expansions, making HotS slightly Z-fav, and LotV slightly P-fav. Future will tell. It's still interesting to play ladder games with races which are not the most favored, and the difference is not ultimately decisive.
Tvs Z and zerg mobility + infestors and most importand baneling drops form overlords can own terran mech imo ( cool vs maka matches demostrate this ) , still fairly close match
Tvs P and toss cant do anything vs good terran
Pvs Z and zerg can own protoss with infestors + zerlging speed + mobility overall , collossi been weak to air doesnt help either .
i can say whatever i want but tournament statistics favor zerg overall then terrans with protoss been last by far imo.
Ps in the storngest tournament so far , as most will know , zerg dominated with protoss been eiminated from r016 , that clearly points something
"I used to play terran, 'cause if they don't fix it, i'm gonna switch over, because terran is just ridiculous right now." by Idra :>
WhiteRa already expressed his concern about critical mass of marauders + medivacs vs protoss.
No one would say TvP is P favored, yet some people say T is favored. I don't know how those that believe everything is balanced and bash on people for thinking things are not there yet, don't get suspicious reading these opinions. What more do they want? Mathematical proof that X race or XvY matchup is imbalanced? That's not going to happen. Imbalances aren't as obvious now as they were, so people can't ask "give me a very hard to beat strat" or for proofs. If someone would be able to prove something like this they should instead be using their great brain for predicting natural disasters or finding the Higgs Boson. The difference in imbalance should, presently, be less than 5-10% between races. At this time polls like this, and opinions of progamers, as well as statistics is what we have to look for.
I dont see the point of zerg complaining , i mean tlo and others have demostrated how they can beat terran mech and sometimes relatively easy.
cool demolished maka - who favored mech - in the world champion with fastlings , infestors and banelings drops mostly like 4-1 etc.
Toss on the other hand seem to underperform vs both zerg and terran so far in the highest of rnaks , obviously in under pro status will be more equally and esp in lower tiers since protoss is easier to newbies.
i think the big problem in tvs p lies that terran can access early upgrades like steam and siege mode - tier 1 srsly ? plus been really cheap compare to protoss and then unit imbalances.
Theres no logic for protoss to require for a simple charge tech 2 + ridiculus amounts of gas whereas terran get steam in the first minute of gameplay with 100-100. Aslo concussive sells 50/50 is like a free upgrade.
toss pays for charge almost the same amount that terran pays to get steam + siege mode + sells.
Add the storm upgrade ( which the best counter vs terran ) and its not even fun.
also steam helps both marauders and marines whereas charge only zealots.
For protoss to have comparable upgrades to stalkers and zealots needs to pay 400/400 vs 250/250 for steam , siege mode and sells.
add the higher tech which requires more buildings for toss than terran and the time to build and by that time terran is already in toss base.
No one would say TvP is P favored, yet some people say T is favored. I don't know how those that believe everything is balanced and bash on people for thinking things are not there yet, don't get suspicious reading these opinion
you mean yet peeps say P is favored vs T , i assume
Terran Mech > Z/P I think no overkill tanks ruin every match-up.
Z masssssssssssssssssss Mutas > P, otherwise Z=P I've felt this way all throughout the beta. If Z can reach a critical number of Mutas, it doesn't seem to matter what the Protoss does about it, they just can't stop the harass and eventual death of their base. When properly micro'd (aka moved away from blinking Stalkers), Mutas are the biggest headache of all.
I'm willing to take Tester or Artosis or Idra's views on this to heart. I mean, honestly, if Jaedong and Flash switched to SC2 who would win? Those are the types of questions we need to be answering here, not what happens in platinum.
Diamond league is meaningless to the conversation.
So just because I am not playing the game on the so called "prolvl" my observations are meaningless?
Why do we even have threads with balance discussions then?
You can have all the balance discussions you want, no problem there. But in the grand scheme of things this game is not (or at least should not) be balanced around diamond league play in general. It should be balanced on the pro level. There's one simple reason for this. If it's balanced on the pro level, then any perceived balance issues in lower level play are because of lack of skill, not balance. Lack of skill can be overcome with practice. Balance issues are harder to overcome for all skill levels.
It's just a mes on who can mass more lings early on or able to mass something else entirely.
ZvP:
It's alright in the beginning. Zerg's early game is strong and protoss should (imh, NEED) block off their ramps and chokes to prevent some serious injury and then it's all mindgames from there (or something. But mid-late game, depends.
If zerg has mass mutas, could be GG for toss. Otherwise, zerg needs to find a way to harasss protoss (nydus worm or doomdrops for example), stalkers can out-kite roaches without speed and a duo of zealots kills zerglings (til over a critical number). You can tech to get speed for roach and lings all you want but protoss could tech as well and get fast immortals.
If toss has a large army with Zealots on lings, stalkers/immortals on roaches, phoenixes on mutas, colossi/high templar for AoE damage that smokes lings and shit like crazy then its gg for zerg. That shit just absolutely melts Zerg.
ZvT: Terran can just totally turtle the shit out of zerg, be extra paranoid and get mech and move out and BAM, zerg is done
Oh and a bunch of marines and marauders KILL roaches and lings together.
i would say all the matchups seem fairly balanced, not like there are any major ballance issues imo, i am worries about viod ray and infestor tricks though
Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/ and Mutas can't stand a front fight.
its just not true, if he starts spamming only mutas, u will never have enough pheonixes up. and if the muta count reaches a critical number, the aoe rapes every realistic number of pheonixes. sentries: too slow stalkers: only usefull with blink, but dont deal much dmg, u need like a 1:1 ratio stalker vs mutas cannons: totally useless (they get instant raped, cost a lot and u give up total map control) storms: takes ages and very expensive to get, but works quite well, u still need stalkers to finish the mutas, u will have massive gas problems
so stop posting bs like 1 phoenix> any # of mutas
even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically.
Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/ and Mutas can't stand a front fight.
even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically.
While this is very true, I deliberately didn't mention how a tech-switch plays into things. They can show mass ling, or even a Roach Warren with no plans for Roaches, forcing the P's hand into a ground army. Save up some gas, pop 10 Mutas at once, and Protoss will never catch up. If you protect those Mutas and just keep adding numbers, Protoss becomes bound to his base and slowly loses.
Being caught off-guard by Mutas as a Protoss pretty much seals your fate. Even if you see the Spire, it's not like you can Cannon up and move your anti-air units out of your base. Unless your strategy involved opening Stargate and getting a Phoenix fleet started, you will be hard-pressed to stop a dedicated Mutalisk attack.
If blizzard is balancing the game for newbies, at higher level it will be next to impossible to have it balanced, and what will happen is that the hardest races will be the best at top level.
A analogy. If we give an F1 car to a newbie and put another driving a road car, they probably arrive at the end at the same time simply because the F1 is so hard to control, he will spin and won't take full advantage of its power. Same for instance with zerg. That's why in Korea it seems everyone is asking for zerg nerfs, because unlike in US and EU, they are able there to take it to its full power, and reveal how strong of a race it is. Zerg should lose on big armies fight because their strength is not there. However, what a lot of newbies do is big armies fight, unfortunately zerg gets buffed so it stands a chance on those fights, unbalancing the matchup, making zerg and terran F1's hard to control, and protoss a road car. They might be equally fast at lower levels, but at top, it's much different.
On July 15 2010 00:19 Duelist wrote: Same for instance with zerg. That's why in Korea it seems everyone is asking for zerg nerfs, because unlike in US and EU, they are able there to take it to its full power, and reveal how strong of a race it is.
I think people must get over this whole "zerg is overpowering in Asia" since this "fact" is months old and doesn't hold true anymore. There was a stage where zergs were winning almost everything in Asia but that hasn't been the case for awhile. Stop using old information for the basis of your arguments. There are FAR too many factors to do such a thing.
Idra also always brings up a very good point about players which on it's own is hard to equate but it still gives doubt to any "absolute" theory.
To all the people insisting Z>T or even near equal you either clearly haven't played a very high number of games in this match up or are just trolling. Quite simply the difficulty in playing TvZ vs playing ZvT is quite amazing. I find it far easier beating Zerg as T, there's just no comparison. I've played around 900 or so games and just got to 5 diamond for comparison. I've always loved Zerg way more than any other race but I really feel like Blizzard has taken a crap on the race and it saddens me immensely. Yes, there are many things a Z can do to win but T just has so many hard counters to everything and while the Z is doing something crafty the T just turns around and stomps through their base with ease.
At this point Terran is just ridiculous. The T fanboi's best and only real viable argument is that fungal growth rapes their armies is maybe the only actual balanced thing in the fight. This is even easily countered when their MMM army simply backs up behind or closer to their siege tanks that continue to rape the Z army which is what happens almost every time. Mixing muta's into the mix is just laffable here as they r annihilated by the 1 or 2 thor's mixed in or by the couple turrets at the mineral line. Anyway I could easily go on and on but overall T just gains and gains every patch as Z keeps getting more and more game changing nerfs.
On July 14 2010 22:44 Duelist wrote: "I used to play terran, 'cause if they don't fix it, i'm gonna switch over, because terran is just ridiculous right now." by Idra :>
WhiteRa already expressed his concern about critical mass of marauders + medivacs vs protoss.
No one would say TvP is P favored, yet some people say T is favored. I don't know how those that believe everything is balanced and bash on people for thinking things are not there yet, don't get suspicious reading these opinions. What more do they want? Mathematical proof that X race or XvY matchup is imbalanced? That's not going to happen. Imbalances aren't as obvious now as they were, so people can't ask "give me a very hard to beat strat" or for proofs. If someone would be able to prove something like this they should instead be using their great brain for predicting natural disasters or finding the Higgs Boson. The difference in imbalance should, presently, be less than 5-10% between races. At this time polls like this, and opinions of progamers, as well as statistics is what we have to look for.
I agree with what white-ra says here completely, in sc1 tank/vulture with 3-2/3 was the strongest army in the game, but protoss with good control and spell casting(stasis/storm) aswell as mine drags and good zealot cloning could annhilate this push really really easy sometimes.
In SC2 i feel theres no equal to it, a majority of my large battles late game end upw ith terran with half their army left even after ive got off like 4-5-6 storms on it. in sc1 it'd atleast be semi even.
Marauders just have so much fucking life and medivacs can healthem through storm its just ridiculous
Zergys are less favored overall... , But the dynamic of the race is pretty different from every other race in the history of RTS so...
I don't think terran deserves such favoritism The bioball has it's inconvinients and the mech is soo imobil that the other races have great potential for new strats.
You have to distinguish what you are able to do, what you struggle with, and real imbalances. As a new player at sc, i could say that any BO is imbalanced to me. It is just that i haven't found the right macro and micro to counter the opponent yet. That should be the state of mind.
Also, Terran is easier for new players with their need to turtle in order to buy time. Simcity is easier... So between bronzy-silver players, of course Terran is favored.
Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/ and Mutas can't stand a front fight.
even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically.
While this is very true, I deliberately didn't mention how a tech-switch plays into things. They can show mass ling, or even a Roach Warren with no plans for Roaches, forcing the P's hand into a ground army. Save up some gas, pop 10 Mutas at once, and Protoss will never catch up. If you protect those Mutas and just keep adding numbers, Protoss becomes bound to his base and slowly loses.
Being caught off-guard by Mutas as a Protoss pretty much seals your fate. Even if you see the Spire, it's not like you can Cannon up and move your anti-air units out of your base. Unless your strategy involved opening Stargate and getting a Phoenix fleet started, you will be hard-pressed to stop a dedicated Mutalisk attack.
Protoss got their flying cloaked detector which should ensure them with good scouting and they should be able to see when a Zerg starts its Lair or Spire and know that Mutalisks are on its way at least 133 in game seconds before the first Mutalisks pop.
Zerg can't scout their opponents base as easily and often get surprised when their Protoss opponent sends his 3-4 Void-Rays or 5-6 Phoenixes.
I don't think Zergs ability to surprise their opponent is superior at all. Zergs can't tech switch as fast as some people seems to believe. They can't tech into everything and build every unit building untill the later stages of the game and by then both Protoss and Terran have built a million of production buildings and can switch units quite fast aswell.
Bronze, silver Z has disadvantage only, huh? I just watched 2 Z streamers for about 3 hours last night and they were rank #1 and 3 diamond, literally lost 80+% or so vs Terran. The only time they actually won was when they got lucky and rushed when the T weren't preparing for it. Every time the game went past the first 8 minutes or so the game always ended in a couple different ways which always involved the upgraded Z army melting to some crazy MMMT or siegeMMM balls.
Even if they don't fix tank overkilling (which they likely won't since every unit in the game doesn't overkill when autoattacking), why don't they change tank damage type a bit? There's no reason that tanks have to kill marines or zergling in 1 shot or zealots in 2-3. Can't they change damage for tanks to like 25 + 25 to armored kinda like BW? Zergling/marines will still get 2 shotted, but at least if you want to deal with them you need to get hellion support instead of JUST mass tanks + a few thors, maybe vikings.
Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/ and Mutas can't stand a front fight.
even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically.
While this is very true, I deliberately didn't mention how a tech-switch plays into things. They can show mass ling, or even a Roach Warren with no plans for Roaches, forcing the P's hand into a ground army. Save up some gas, pop 10 Mutas at once, and Protoss will never catch up. If you protect those Mutas and just keep adding numbers, Protoss becomes bound to his base and slowly loses.
Being caught off-guard by Mutas as a Protoss pretty much seals your fate. Even if you see the Spire, it's not like you can Cannon up and move your anti-air units out of your base. Unless your strategy involved opening Stargate and getting a Phoenix fleet started, you will be hard-pressed to stop a dedicated Mutalisk attack.
Protoss got their flying cloaked detector which should ensure them with good scouting and they should be able to see when a Zerg starts its Lair or Spire and know that Mutalisks are on its way at least 133 in game seconds before the first Mutalisks pop.
Zerg can't scout their opponents base as easily and often get surprised when their Protoss opponent sends his 3-4 Void-Rays or 5-6 Phoenixes.
I don't think Zergs ability to surprise their opponent is superior at all. Zergs can't tech switch as fast as some people seems to believe. They can't tech into everything and build every unit building untill the later stages of the game and by then both Protoss and Terran have built a million of production buildings and can switch units quite fast aswell.
Do you even read the post? Or read what you are saying? If a Protoss has a Robotics, and Obs out and in the Z base, it's pretty safe to assume that Z has a Lair finished and a Spire done or on the way (if they do intend to go Mutalisks). The more realistic scenario, or should I say the one I face most often, is my Obs gets to their base in time to see Mutas flying towards mine.
If I scout their Spire as it's starting, that doesn't even guarantee my safety vs Mutas. I can't match the production capability with 1 Stargate, and Protoss ground vs air is abysmal at best. And you sure aren't going to have Blink upgraded Stalkers, Phoenixes and Observers to guard all your fronts if they go for any fast Muta build.
Like I said, unless you pre-planned a Stargate build, Mutas are a real threat if they decide to just mass them. Outside of this, ZvP is a very equal match-up.
On July 15 2010 00:48 teamsolid wrote: Can't they change damage for tanks to like 25 + 25 to armored kinda like BW? Zergling/marines will still get 2 shotted, but at least if you want to deal with them you need to get hellion support instead of JUST mass tanks + a few thors, maybe vikings.
Like your idea, maybe not 50/50 but I think it could balance things up if Blizz wants the "no overkill auto-micro" in the game. Anyway there's been so many thoughts about tanks, it's even been discussed on a state of the game episode, I don't know if Blizz will change something about them.
On July 14 2010 23:53 MiyaviTeddy wrote: ZvT: Terran can just totally turtle the shit out of zerg, be extra paranoid and get mech and move out and BAM, zerg is done
Oh and a bunch of marines and marauders KILL roaches and lings together.
thats just true if the Zerg player has really really bad macro.
No Melt ur wrong lol. Terran turtles quite often and can do tons of damage with just 1 expo. Remember there's only 200 food available and on small maps T can do this extremely effectively.
ZvT : I'd say it begins to be a little balanced, but a little, even though I still think T is largely favored. Mech is still a great counter to,like, all (?) compos the zerg's able to launch, and in that, it is a problem. It's not about massing tanks, it's about having enough to annihilate roach/hydra, being able to harass with Hellions, and massing a critical bio mass.
PvT : T is favored. If T goes biomass + medivac, it's still a little annoying, even with Chargelots/Sentries/HT. T dictates the flow of the game, even a cheesy VR / 4 gates push's still hard.
ZvP : Fairly balanced. Yeah. When it's not T or mirror (obviously), I think it is balanced. And I think I'm smart enough to understand what's wrong right now with balance.
It seems like Zerg is the weakest race now, in TvZ, tanks own Z pretty much, in TvP, colossus is a bit hard for them to deal with couse they cant get Hive in time and realy, corupters are not the answer couse even if they have them they gonna be steamrolled anyways. One example> i defeat diamond 140 apm Diam.player and i had like arnd 70 (im rusty!), he had a bigger army and mostly controled the map but 2 colossi changed everything in my favour. In TvP is fairly balanced exept for the EMP wich demolishes Protoss army and is not really fair (50 gas for ghost academy, u get the spell for free, deals 100 instant dmg, long cast radius, huge aoe, drains also all energy from spellcasters, decloaks units) i mean cmon.. its not even funny. So to sum it up in current state game in my opinion is not balanced at all.
Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/ and Mutas can't stand a front fight.
even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically.
While this is very true, I deliberately didn't mention how a tech-switch plays into things. They can show mass ling, or even a Roach Warren with no plans for Roaches, forcing the P's hand into a ground army. Save up some gas, pop 10 Mutas at once, and Protoss will never catch up. If you protect those Mutas and just keep adding numbers, Protoss becomes bound to his base and slowly loses.
Being caught off-guard by Mutas as a Protoss pretty much seals your fate. Even if you see the Spire, it's not like you can Cannon up and move your anti-air units out of your base. Unless your strategy involved opening Stargate and getting a Phoenix fleet started, you will be hard-pressed to stop a dedicated Mutalisk attack.
Protoss got their flying cloaked detector which should ensure them with good scouting and they should be able to see when a Zerg starts its Lair or Spire and know that Mutalisks are on its way at least 133 in game seconds before the first Mutalisks pop.
Zerg can't scout their opponents base as easily and often get surprised when their Protoss opponent sends his 3-4 Void-Rays or 5-6 Phoenixes.
I don't think Zergs ability to surprise their opponent is superior at all. Zergs can't tech switch as fast as some people seems to believe. They can't tech into everything and build every unit building untill the later stages of the game and by then both Protoss and Terran have built a million of production buildings and can switch units quite fast aswell.
Do you even read the post? Or read what you are saying? If a Protoss has a Robotics, and Obs out and in the Z base, it's pretty safe to assume that Z has a Lair finished and a Spire done or on the way (if they do intend to go Mutalisks). The more realistic scenario, or should I say the one I face most often, is my Obs gets to their base in time to see Mutas flying towards mine.
If I scout their Spire as it's starting, that doesn't even guarantee my safety vs Mutas. I can't match the production capability with 1 Stargate, and Protoss ground vs air is abysmal at best. And you sure aren't going to have Blink upgraded Stalkers, Phoenixes and Observers to guard all your fronts if they go for any fast Muta build.
Like I said, unless you pre-planned a Stargate build, Mutas are a real threat if they decide to just mass them. Outside of this, ZvP is a very equal match-up.
If Zerg rushes to get a Spire then you should be able to see this early since he will lack other units. Mutas also cost a ton of gas and if the Zerg uses all his gas to produce Mutas then he will be able produce one Mutalisk per base with fully saturated geysers every 25 seconds. You can easily build cannons and Stalkers to keep up with the Mutalisk attack while saving up gas to counter push a Zerg with no gas to build other units than Queens and Zerglings.
Unless I (when playing Zerg) pre-plan air defence then an air attack from Protoss will be equally hard to handle.
PvT is fairly balanced once both protoss and terran are able to unlock all of their techs. The problem is that the terran early game is better than the protoss early game. Ghost/bio with stim >>> gateway units.
As a zerg player I can't understand why everyone is whining about the race, in my opinion all races are equally strong. Most players whine about certain scenaros for example mech push, which is very easy to kill by simply massing lng/roaches and creeps tumors. In the later stages of the game you can add ultras/infestors etc. I don't agree with everyone saying that zerg are the weakest race.
I really wounder why everyone whines about TvZ. I play random atm but TvZ is my favorite matchup with both races in phase 2 thus far because now Z can do even better harras with infestor.(Spawning infested terrans burrowd is so n1 against tanks or just in his mineral line with a FG and every worker gets one or twoshoted depends on the upgrades)
Anyways as long as you don´t go things like hydra roach against mech you really shouldn´t autoloose this matchup.
On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote: Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents.
Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found.
Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10
Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it.
Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene).
If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues?
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.
Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay?
actually its just an emphasis of the fact that theres no top level rts players playing terran and only a couple playing protoss, and win rates and tournament wins are still pretty balanced racially. if anything its been tilting away from zerg.
You can't really say "its been tilting away from zerg", what is your sample size in tournaments that happened in phase 2, like 3 tournaments? If it's been tilting from Z, who are the top terrans that entered the scene that are making it this way?
You also cant look at different patches and just lump all tournament wins of all time together. It has to be a lot of games on 1 patch, and there simply haven't been enough tournaments yet after T nerfs to confirm that TvZ is still somehow imbalanced in favor of T.
since the patch that fixed tank splash, and especially since the 2 supply roach, terrans have definitely been winning more and more tournaments. all of the smaller foreign stuff like zotac, esl, craftcup, gosucoaching, as well as maka and loner or hannibal taking an aiur master's thing, maka winning the big gom invitational. and, once again, you're completely ignoring the point that almost all of the top players were established players in starcraft and a rare few from other games. there are tons of accomplished players playing zerg, then you have tester playing protoss, and the best terran in the world was a war3 amateur who never really did much.
I can't say I watched or even knew about all the tourneys you mentioned but the map pool was the maps from beta? It's 7 maps 4 of which are crap and you can't even judge the balance of a game this complex from less than a year of games (not to mention game-changing patches) much less from the results of a bunch of crappy Blizz maps.
ZvT : I'd say it begins to be a little balanced, but a little, even though I still think T is largely favored. Mech is still a great counter to,like, all (?) compos the zerg's able to launch, and in that, it is a problem. It's not about massing tanks, it's about having enough to annihilate roach/hydra, being able to harass with Hellions, and massing a critical bio mass.
PvT : T is favored. If T goes biomass + medivac, it's still a little annoying, even with Chargelots/Sentries/HT. T dictates the flow of the game, even a cheesy VR / 4 gates push's still hard.
ZvP : Fairly balanced. Yeah. When it's not T or mirror (obviously), I think it is balanced. And I think I'm smart enough to understand what's wrong right now with balance.
Mech potentially yes but ultras are very strong against mech, and bio is shut down by lolfungalgrowth and i mean completely shut down to the point where it isnt even possible to use against a nonretarded zerg
PvT: yeah id agree T Favored 100% Storm does nothing if youre lucky enough to get 1 off against stupid EMP which did i mention you cant dodge?
ZvP: id put this in P's corner since late game with colossus stalker zerg atleast when i play has trouble dealing with this
I love how everyone always talks about 'zerg mobility' as some huge advantange.. as if we're still playing SC1.
Go play a few games as zerg. Mobility basically encompasses speedlings and that's it. Everything else is slow off creep and any halfway decent opponent isn't going to let you creep the entire map. Doesn't help that well over half the current map pool is a mass of high/low ground with cliffs everywhere and terrain built to funnel units into chokepoints.
Z 'mobility' in this beta with the current maps is a joke.
PvT: yeah id agree T Favored 100% Storm does nothing if youre lucky enough to get 1 off against stupid EMP which did i mention you cant dodge?
EMP is sooo retarded. Its so Op for the reasons milion times stated before and i cant believe they didnt do anything about it. EMP is the worst part in the game atm.
PvT: yeah id agree T Favored 100% Storm does nothing if youre lucky enough to get 1 off against stupid EMP which did i mention you cant dodge?
EMP is sooo retarded. Its so Op for the reasons milion times stated before and i cant believe they didnt do anything about it. EMP is the worst part in the game atm.
I think EMP would be fine if they reverted spells back to being dodgeable. No idea why they changed them. Same goes for fungal
pvz is really fun, id say its fairly balanced until Z gets broodlord/corrupter since toss AA sucks.. but pretty happy with pvz
pvt is ridiculous, marauders are so strong and will kill any tier 1 army with EASE their upgrade is SO fucking cheap and only requires a tech lab.. wtf.. marauders have so much health, ranged, can be healed, can SLOW and kite easily, STIMMM all for such a low price - who cares if they dont attack air? they completely destroy every ground unit.. Now, we see toss needs twilight and 200/200 YES 200/200 for charge, to make them just get a COUPLE hits on the marauders.. and also takes ages to upgrade. Remember, this also requires a cybernetics core + twilight council so add the costs of that.. EMP is too hard to dodge, and doesnt require an upgrade. Serious? Kill off 25% of the toss army's HP and remove energy to render casters useless.. At least make EMP an upgrade.. At least make it dodgable. Tank=No overkill
Toss really needs proper anti air, zerg/terran have corrupter/viking which do decent amount of damage and don't need to micro them against colossus during a big fight, where we need to use stalkers, blink into an area to shoot down the broodlords, not even kill it and just die off to hydras and get stuck by broodlings Also HT takes forever to tech to.. DT tech is pretty crappy but we can survive with that Carrier + mothership = lol
Terran is easily the strongest race right now, it's just not many pros are playing terran.... (read idras post for confirmation) They have the most harass options and hard counters - Although I DO think they're the hardest to play but like i said above if a pro was playing terran they would be winning all the tournies
ps. marauders are op i hate them they kill all ground units (ffs why is concussive shells so cheap wtf)
It's FAR too early to say anything. I think that once the game has been out we can make assumptions like this, but for all we know it may be something crazy like corruptor infestor to beat mech and so on. AND there's two more expansions coming.
On July 15 2010 00:19 Duelist wrote: If blizzard is balancing the game for newbies, at higher level it will be next to impossible to have it balanced, and what will happen is that the hardest races will be the best at top level.
A analogy. If we give an F1 car to a newbie and put another driving a road car, they probably arrive at the end at the same time simply because the F1 is so hard to control, he will spin and won't take full advantage of its power. Same for instance with zerg. That's why in Korea it seems everyone is asking for zerg nerfs, because unlike in US and EU, they are able there to take it to its full power, and reveal how strong of a race it is. Zerg should lose on big armies fight because their strength is not there. However, what a lot of newbies do is big armies fight, unfortunately zerg gets buffed so it stands a chance on those fights, unbalancing the matchup, making zerg and terran F1's hard to control, and protoss a road car. They might be equally fast at lower levels, but at top, it's much different.
Please!! show me posts made by TOP KOREAN players stating that they want zerg to be nerfed. So far the only thing I can find while googling is top korean zerg player saying that zerg sucks! Hell even in interviews that Artosis is doing most pro players are stating that zerg is the underdog. In the interview with tester, even tester admited that terran will be OP once more pro gamers switch to SC2... and I could list countless interviews/post stating the same thing.
So I would like you to find a couple posts made by TOP PLAYERS, since you say that TOP PLAYERS =/= NEWBIES saying that zerg needs a nerf and also that KOREAN in general would like the zergs to be nerfed.
Also, in several interviews, namely Day[9] it was stated that TOP players from all realms are currently pretty equal and from what I've seen, there is alot of concerns by TOP zerg players regarding ZvZ and ZvT even after the small tank nerf.
On July 15 2010 00:19 Duelist wrote: If blizzard is balancing the game for newbies, at higher level it will be next to impossible to have it balanced, and what will happen is that the hardest races will be the best at top level.
A analogy. If we give an F1 car to a newbie and put another driving a road car, they probably arrive at the end at the same time simply because the F1 is so hard to control, he will spin and won't take full advantage of its power. Same for instance with zerg. That's why in Korea it seems everyone is asking for zerg nerfs, because unlike in US and EU, they are able there to take it to its full power, and reveal how strong of a race it is. Zerg should lose on big armies fight because their strength is not there. However, what a lot of newbies do is big armies fight, unfortunately zerg gets buffed so it stands a chance on those fights, unbalancing the matchup, making zerg and terran F1's hard to control, and protoss a road car. They might be equally fast at lower levels, but at top, it's much different.
Please!! show me posts made by TOP KOREAN players stating that they want zerg to be nerfed. So far the only thing I can find while googling is top korean zerg player saying that zerg sucks! Hell even in interviews that Artosis is doing most pro players are stating that zerg is the underdog. In the interview with tester, even tester admited that terran will be OP once more pro gamers switch to SC2... and I could list countless interviews/post stating the same thing.
So I would like you to find a couple posts made by TOP PLAYERS, since you say that TOP PLAYERS =/= NEWBIES saying that zerg needs a nerf and also that KOREAN in general would like the zergs to be nerfed.
Also, in several interviews, namely Day[9] it was stated that TOP players from all realms are currently pretty equal and from what I've seen, there is alot of concerns by TOP zerg players regarding ZvZ and ZvT even after the small tank nerf.
thanks for backing up what you say please!
He's referring to some comments made by Blizzard in a developer chat where they said one of the issues with balancing is that in US/EU, Zerg is weaker, compared to Asia, where Zerg is stronger. Someone might dig up the actual chat and prove me wrong but I am pretty sure this was based on statistical analysis of winrates, not comments from top players. Which method is better, statistics or player perspectives, is debatable, and I think each comes with its own set of troubling hidden variables.
I say it again. This Blizzard comment was based on stats months ago which really mean nothing in todays game. I have no idea why people are bringing that up or in fact the Tester interview.
On July 15 2010 03:19 Numy wrote: I say it again. This Blizzard comment was based on stats months ago which really mean nothing in todays game. I have no idea why people are bringing that up or in fact the Tester interview.
This. The comments were from before a majority of people were in beta. Most current beta players got in when they started offering the beta key with preorders (myself included) and the comments were made before that.
On July 15 2010 03:09 fatduck wrote: He's referring to some comments made by Blizzard in a developer chat where they said one of the issues with balancing is that in US/EU, Zerg is weaker, compared to Asia, where Zerg is stronger. Someone might dig up the actual chat and prove me wrong but I am pretty sure this was based on statistical analysis of winrates, not comments from top players. Which method is better, statistics or player perspectives, is debatable, and I think each comes with its own set of troubling hidden variables.
Yes, maybe you're right and he's referring to the developper chat. But if they're saying that Zerg's win rate is higher.... maybe it's cause :
On July 14 2010 10:46 IdrA wrote: look at the difference between tester and every other protoss player then realize no one near tester's caliber plays terran then consider that 90% of the top tier rts players playing sc2 right now chose zerg
if the game were balanced zerg would be winning 70%+ at high levels.
If there is a large amount of players playing 1 race. It is also NORMAL that a race gets an overall higher win rate no?
Lets take 100 top gamers
60 are playing Zerg 15 are playing Protoss 20 are playing Terran 5 are playing Random
If each player win 1 and lose 1 we can say that they win 50% of their games....
Zergs win rate will be 60% Protoss win rate will be 15% Terran win rate will be 20% Random win rate will be 5%
but currently in most EU/US divisions (I have both accounts) most top 10 I'm look at right now looks like 4-5 terran, 4-5 protoss, 1-2 Zerg.
Hell in my US division right now. it's 5 terran, 3 protoss, 1 random and 1 zerg being me and the next zerg in the list rocks the #18 rank. I'm aware that not EVERY division looks like this... but still.... each time I win/lose vs any diamond player I look at his division and I find that it's really recurrent.
Hell if you look at one of the best division in US right now
Maybe I'm flipping, but everytime I see ZvT (and playing as Z) at the end of the game. Even if the terran was platinum... I can say that he gave me alot of trouble... and that is if I didn't lose and I'm using all type of mobility hack I can to win.
also I find it fun to see that there is about NO post from ZvP but tons and tons of TvP and TvZ... just saying
On July 15 2010 01:15 FlamingTurd wrote: No Melt ur wrong lol. Terran turtles quite often and can do tons of damage with just 1 expo. Remember there's only 200 food available and on small maps T can do this extremely effectively.
Ok, i thought you meant 1 Base.
It's indeed really hard to fight a 2 Base turtling Terran on Maps such as steppes of war. I just had such a game and i think that a Speedling Muta into baneling Strategy doesn't really stand a Chance against that.
I'm going to try a Roach Baneling 3 Base strategy with perhabs some Hydras and Infestors and later Ultras/Blords.
I find it quite hard to get up the much needed economy and still be able to defend against terrans numerous Harrass options.
I don't think that you can't win against such a Strategy, but it seems to be much harder to play against it, than to play it. If both players are of equal skill level, i think Terran will almost everytime end on top.
On July 15 2010 01:52 Azile wrote: I love how everyone always talks about 'zerg mobility' as some huge advantange.. as if we're still playing SC1.
Go play a few games as zerg. Mobility basically encompasses speedlings and that's it. Everything else is slow off creep and any halfway decent opponent isn't going to let you creep the entire map. Doesn't help that well over half the current map pool is a mass of high/low ground with cliffs everywhere and terrain built to funnel units into chokepoints.
Z 'mobility' in this beta with the current maps is a joke.
Nydus worm. Also zerg is the fastest of all the races with creep. Fact.
it truly breaks my heart in pvt when all my high-tech, expensive and fancy shit die to his tier one units. TIER ONE units. marines and marauders. and ghosts' EMP is ridiculous as well. having been a good and competitive brood war player, it just feels so insulting to lose to fucking tier one terran units lol. i'm getting much better at pvp and pvz, but pvt is such a struggle for me right now. just can't beat good terrans...so much versatility.
On July 15 2010 04:36 OneOther wrote: it truly breaks my heart in pvt when all my high-tech, expensive and fancy shit die to his tier one units. TIER ONE units. marines and marauders. and ghosts' EMP is ridiculous as well. having been a good and competitive brood war player, it just feels so insulting to lose to fucking tier one terran units lol. i'm getting much better at pvp and pvz, but pvt is such a struggle for me right now. just can't beat good terrans...so much versatility.
Ghost is really more like tier two. Perhaps you're teching too fast? EDIT: Also, the protoss expansion isn't out yet. You'll get your versatility then.
On July 15 2010 04:36 OneOther wrote: it truly breaks my heart in pvt when all my high-tech, expensive and fancy shit die to his tier one units. TIER ONE units. marines and marauders. and ghosts' EMP is ridiculous as well. having been a good and competitive brood war player, it just feels so insulting to lose to fucking tier one terran units lol. i'm getting much better at pvp and pvz, but pvt is such a struggle for me right now. just can't beat good terrans...so much versatility.
Ghost is really more like tier two. Perhaps you're teching too fast?
i was more referring to marines and marauders. it's unbelievable how good they are early game, early-mid game, mid game, mid-late game, and late game. i'm not really teching too fast but my weakness is midgame right now.
On July 14 2010 22:44 Duelist wrote: "I used to play terran, 'cause if they don't fix it, i'm gonna switch over, because terran is just ridiculous right now." by Idra :>
WhiteRa already expressed his concern about critical mass of marauders + medivacs vs protoss.
No one would say TvP is P favored, yet some people say T is favored. I don't know how those that believe everything is balanced and bash on people for thinking things are not there yet, don't get suspicious reading these opinions. What more do they want? Mathematical proof that X race or XvY matchup is imbalanced? That's not going to happen. Imbalances aren't as obvious now as they were, so people can't ask "give me a very hard to beat strat" or for proofs. If someone would be able to prove something like this they should instead be using their great brain for predicting natural disasters or finding the Higgs Boson. The difference in imbalance should, presently, be less than 5-10% between races. At this time polls like this, and opinions of progamers, as well as statistics is what we have to look for.
I agree with what white-ra says here completely, in sc1 tank/vulture with 3-2/3 was the strongest army in the game, but protoss with good control and spell casting(stasis/storm) aswell as mine drags and good zealot cloning could annhilate this push really really easy sometimes.
In SC2 i feel theres no equal to it, a majority of my large battles late game end upw ith terran with half their army left even after ive got off like 4-5-6 storms on it. in sc1 it'd atleast be semi even.
Marauders just have so much fucking life and medivacs can healthem through storm its just ridiculous
Amen to that brother. Add in an emp and sometimes you can't even get off half your storms.
The game isn't done yet. >.< Starcraft one was HORRIBLY imbalanced. You just got mutalisks and everything died, typically. It wasn't until BW that the game got closed to balance. The same thing is true in SC2. While the game is still pretty damned balanced, there will be two more expansions and everyone has to understand that the game is far from done.
On July 15 2010 01:52 Azile wrote: I love how everyone always talks about 'zerg mobility' as some huge advantange.. as if we're still playing SC1.
Go play a few games as zerg. Mobility basically encompasses speedlings and that's it. Everything else is slow off creep and any halfway decent opponent isn't going to let you creep the entire map. Doesn't help that well over half the current map pool is a mass of high/low ground with cliffs everywhere and terrain built to funnel units into chokepoints.
Z 'mobility' in this beta with the current maps is a joke.
Nydus worm. Also zerg is the fastest of all the races with creep. Fact.
I thought that was quite obvious... since Zerg is the only race with creep...
On July 15 2010 01:52 Azile wrote: I love how everyone always talks about 'zerg mobility' as some huge advantange.. as if we're still playing SC1.
Go play a few games as zerg. Mobility basically encompasses speedlings and that's it. Everything else is slow off creep and any halfway decent opponent isn't going to let you creep the entire map. Doesn't help that well over half the current map pool is a mass of high/low ground with cliffs everywhere and terrain built to funnel units into chokepoints.
Z 'mobility' in this beta with the current maps is a joke.
I feel like Zergs Army as a whole may be the most mobile if you put your creep everywhere and maybe have some nydus networks. You pretty much need your Army as a defense and can't turtle and harrass nearly as good as Terran or even as Protoss.
If you look at stuff like harrassing, dropping, cliff jumping/walking, air to ground harrass and all that good stuff, Zerg doesn't feel mobile at all.
On July 15 2010 04:44 MythicalMage wrote: The game isn't done yet. >.< Starcraft one was HORRIBLY imbalanced. You just got mutalisks and everything died, typically. It wasn't until BW that the game got closed to balance. The same thing is true in SC2. While the game is still pretty damned balanced, there will be two more expansions and everyone has to understand that the game is far from done.
edit: nvm, misread!
i agree - and hope - that sc2 will keep on improving as time goes on
I think the game is pretty well balanced. I voted for only TvZ being imbalanced (towards T) because it seems like the Z needs to be so much better in order to properly abuse the T.
That said, I still think Z is at a pretty big disadvantage. Through all of my playing, it seems like they really have the weakest army overall - there's really not much short of mass Ultralisks (which isn't exactly economically or tech viable in most situations) that can take on really any army composition from the other two races in the mid-game or late game. The thing that Zerg has going for them is abuse and harassment early game and early mid-game. This means that yea, the match ups are still balanced, but not in the way that I think is good design.
Oh, and I am amazed at just how useless the Roach is now. It seriously boggles my mind.
On July 15 2010 07:23 Stratos_speAr wrote: I think the game is pretty well balanced. I voted for only TvZ being imbalanced (towards T) because it seems like the Z needs to be so much better in order to properly abuse the T.
That said, I still think Z is at a pretty big disadvantage. Through all of my playing, it seems like they really have the weakest army overall - there's really not much short of mass Ultralisks (which isn't exactly economically or tech viable in most situations) that can take on really any army composition from the other two races in the mid-game or late game. The thing that Zerg has going for them is abuse and harassment early game and early mid-game. This means that yea, the match ups are still balanced, but not in the way that I think is good design.
Oh, and I am amazed at just how useless the Roach is now. It seriously boggles my mind.
Roach is amazing at absorbing damage all game, can kite early zealot aggression on creep all day long, good vers marines, CHEAP for the hp and armor, can take advantage of lack of detection w/ burrow-move, are purrrty fast on creep once you get the speed upgrade and so are great flankers, and do decent damage assuming you can get them in range.
On July 15 2010 07:23 Stratos_speAr wrote: I think the game is pretty well balanced. I voted for only TvZ being imbalanced (towards T) because it seems like the Z needs to be so much better in order to properly abuse the T.
That said, I still think Z is at a pretty big disadvantage. Through all of my playing, it seems like they really have the weakest army overall - there's really not much short of mass Ultralisks (which isn't exactly economically or tech viable in most situations) that can take on really any army composition from the other two races in the mid-game or late game. The thing that Zerg has going for them is abuse and harassment early game and early mid-game. This means that yea, the match ups are still balanced, but not in the way that I think is good design.
Oh, and I am amazed at just how useless the Roach is now. It seriously boggles my mind.
Roach is amazing at absorbing damage all game, can kite early zealot aggression on creep all day long, good vers marines, CHEAP for the hp and armor, can take advantage of lack of detection w/ burrow-move, are purrrty fast on creep once you get the speed upgrade and so are great flankers, and do decent damage assuming you can get them in range.
The problem is that 1) They are really damn slow and can't Burrow-move until you get the tech, and at that point your opponent can easily counter that, and 2) there is so much anti-armor or just high enough DPS to squash Roaches that I just never find a use for them. I just find Speedlings so much more useful early game.
TvZ - T massively favoured TvP - T favoured PvZ - P slightly favoured
TvZ - siege tanks + thors + MMM = invincibility TvP - siege tanks + MMM = 90% win PvZ - very close to fair but maybe larvae should spawn a tiny bit faster. Z is always on the edge of losing to a gateway push.
In PvZ also I think it's a bit unfair how if P goes collossi then Z is forced to respond by making corruptors, there is no other way to win, therefore P is dictating play. On the other hand P typically gets wasted when Z responds with enough corruptors.
Terran simply needs nerf. Why do they have like 5 more units than Z and 2 more units than P?
I HATE ZvZ. It's the most intense matchups and are decided over minor things. But I hate ZvT more because everything they have owns meh. PvZ is the most fun. I wish for those every time I click on find match.
i believe all 3 races are really balanced right now. the main reason why zerg users think otherwise is because of the maps (most of beta maps not good for zerg). so what i think is the 3 races are pretty much there but need way more and better maps for zerg to shine.
As I stated in the other thread, if one player is stubborn enough to all in zealot rush you, you pretty much have to defend buy going all-in zealots...
Wow after reading through 12 pages of this it is clear that almost every1 readily admits Z is way underpowered vs T and a bit towards P. The only few that disagree are T fanboi's or undercover T players, surprise. Lets see if Blizzard can shovel away that crap they took on Z and help em out a little bit. Would be nice.
I dont play zerg, Id really like to but zvz just looks like pain in the ass (banelings baneling banelings) I play terran and i dont find tvt too much of a problem, actually tvz is my hardest matchup. Dunno why, since it seems that general consensus is that it should be piece of cake. I usually can get to second base no problem but cant end the game and slowly die out.
TvP is my best match up, i guess since vikings are such a good counter to colossus packed up with mmm. Little back and fourth action usually brings me the victory.
On July 15 2010 10:44 FlamingTurd wrote: Wow after reading through 12 pages of this it is clear that almost every1 readily admits Z is way underpowered vs T and a bit towards P. The only few that disagree are T fanboi's or undercover T players, surprise. Lets see if Blizzard can shovel away that crap they took on Z and help em out a little bit. Would be nice.
Or, you know, you could have players be creative and overcome powerful enemy units. Back in the early days of the beta, zerg was overpowered cause broodlords were unstoppable. Also, there's a zerg expansion coming soon, and a protoss after that. In other words the game is not done.
On July 15 2010 10:44 FlamingTurd wrote: Wow after reading through 12 pages of this it is clear that almost every1 readily admits Z is way underpowered vs T and a bit towards P. The only few that disagree are T fanboi's or undercover T players, surprise. Lets see if Blizzard can shovel away that crap they took on Z and help em out a little bit. Would be nice.
Or, you know, you could have players be creative and overcome powerful enemy units. Back in the early days of the beta, zerg was overpowered cause broodlords were unstoppable. Also, there's a zerg expansion coming soon, and a protoss after that. In other words the game is not done.
Lol so what r u saying? We wait for a year until the first expansion comes out and then Z will be balanced? lol. How about through forums like this we let Blizzard know that there are obvious imbalances, sounds much more logical to me. In my diamond league alone there r 7 freakin Terran in top 10 and 2 P, 1 Z.
On July 15 2010 10:27 1egend wrote: i believe all 3 races are really balanced right now. the main reason why zerg users think otherwise is because of the maps (most of beta maps not good for zerg). so what i think is the 3 races are pretty much there but need way more and better maps for zerg to shine.
I agree with you that the right maps can make the matchups balanced. But having to rely on a special type of map to get balance is a bad solution. It would be more fun if Blizzard would give every race an ability to use cliffs, closed and open spaces to their advantage so we could experience balance on different looking maps.
On July 15 2010 10:27 1egend wrote: i believe all 3 races are really balanced right now. the main reason why zerg users think otherwise is because of the maps (most of beta maps not good for zerg). so what i think is the 3 races are pretty much there but need way more and better maps for zerg to shine.
I agree with you that the right maps can make the matchups balanced. But having to rely on a special type of map to get balance is a bad solution. It would be more fun if Blizzard would give every race an ability to use cliffs, closed and open spaces to their advantage so we could experience balance on different looking maps.
this will make it more balanced but whats most interesting and fun is when each race is more unique.
On July 15 2010 10:27 1egend wrote: i believe all 3 races are really balanced right now. the main reason why zerg users think otherwise is because of the maps (most of beta maps not good for zerg). so what i think is the 3 races are pretty much there but need way more and better maps for zerg to shine.
I agree with you that the right maps can make the matchups balanced. But having to rely on a special type of map to get balance is a bad solution. It would be more fun if Blizzard would give every race an ability to use cliffs, closed and open spaces to their advantage so we could experience balance on different looking maps.
this will make it more balanced but whats most interesting and fun is when each race is more unique.
There should be differences in how the races use terrain, but there should also be some balance. It's fine if Zerg are never awesome at making use of cliffs or chokes, but it's not cool that they're 100% at a disadvantage in those areas. It should be more like TvP where there are times and situations where each race can possibly have an advantage.
Since this is a racial balance topic i would like to state my thoughts. They need to change a lot of numbers with units so we wouldnt get results like 8% thinks zerg is favoured against terran and 72% that terran is favoured against zerg.
Game needs to be balanced on all skill levels not just for pros. wich is very hard to do but i dont think only pro players are their target audience.
There are a lot of QQ topics about specific units and i think this topic is the best place where everyone can state their opinion instead of making 1000 threads about a single unit.
T marine - fine Marauder - remove stim ability reaper - needs a buff and tier 2 upgrade so it can be usefull later in the game (dont know what) Ghost - make EMP 200/200 110s research at ghost academy hellion - fine Siege tank - range reduce to 9 (tier 2, 3 food unit with 13 range? REALLY?) Thor - increase build time Viking - reduce range to 8 Medvac - fine banshee - fine Raven - increase range of HSM to 8 and make a projectile move faster Bcruiser - increase build time
P
Zlot - fine Stalker - fine Sentry - make forcefield cost 75 energy, hallucination research to 50/50 instead of 100/100 HT - needs a bigger aoe for the price u have to pay to get them than 1.5 (it was 2, revert it back to 2) DT - fine Obs - fine Warprism - fine Immortal - fine Colossi - reduce range to 8 but make the upgrade 150/150 Phoenix - that unit needs a price reduction, dont know what Voidray - i really dont know but they need some change, unit mechanics itself is a problem Carrier - they need build speed increase to 100 (instead of 120) Archon - to make it viable as unit (wich is allways good) they need buf in range and aoe. Mothership - needs speed buff, and some new spells
Z
zergling - fine bling - fine roach - fine hydra - fine infestor - fine (insert unit) z needs a tier 2 cloaked unit (roaches and infestor are too slow) Mutalisk - fine Corruptor - needs a new spell (something FUN and USEFULL at the same time) Blord - range reduced to 8 Ultralisk - speed buff Overseer - needs one more spell
So i think i covered all QQ about units ive seen in topics since the beta started :D I tried to be objective as i could but just for the record - this is only my opinion so pls no flaming. tnx
Ok, first post here and hopefully I won't get shot down. I've been playing Random since early beta phase 1, I was a Protoss player during BW but settled on Random since I wanted to try something new.
My 2 cents about each race is that firstly the Queen is the backbone of the Zerg seriously it's completly redonculous but without it Zerg has little to no chance against the other races.. or maybe they will? I haven't played a single Zerg game without a Queen so that's just my guess.
Warp Gates and chrono boost are also extremly unfair but way cooler than anything else, it makes the strong Protoss army extremly mobile and can pretty easily defend faroff expansion.
Terran has the Reactor (and the mules) which in my eyes is the least unfair macro mechanic but still without it pretty darn it helpless against the other races.
But if you've played the beta this is all things you should know,
In my eyes TvZ is slightly in favour of Terran, where everything hangs on the early game decisions, what Terran does and how Zerg will respond, Zerg should be able to easily outmacro the Terran if they manage to stop the harrass but seeing as how many options the Terran has and how hard it is for the Zerg to stop it I can't say that Zerg is in favour in this matchup.
TvP without Ghosts is P favoured, TvP with Ghosts is T favoured. Ghosts is in no way OP and very healthy for the matchup, though it's extremly hard to stop them and when the Toss army has been EMPd the Protoss is going to get steamrolled unless the army difference is 15+ population I find it extremly hard to pull out a win or lose as Terran.
I personally find ZvP the most fun since I enjoy macro fests where both players have half of the map and most ZvP games I play end up as such, it's also the matchup I find the most even, Protoss controls the early game while it slowly tilts in the favour of Zerg, Zerg lategame is extremly hard to stop as Protoss since Broodlords can win games just by themselves.
On July 15 2010 11:31 Acidlineup wrote: Since this is a racial balance topic i would like to state my thoughts. They need to change a lot of numbers with units so we wouldnt get results like 8% thinks zerg is favoured against terran and 72% that terran is favoured against zerg.
Game needs to be balanced on all skill levels not just for pros. wich is very hard to do but i dont think only pro players are their target audience.
There are a lot of QQ topics about specific units and i think this topic is the best place where everyone can state their opinion instead of making 1000 threads about a single unit.
T marine - fine Marauder - remove stim ability reaper - needs a buff and tier 2 upgrade so it can be usefull later in the game (dont know what) Ghost - make EMP 200/200 110s research at ghost academy hellion - fine Siege tank - range reduce to 9 (tier 2, 3 food unit with 13 range? REALLY?) Thor - increase build time Viking - reduce range to 8 Medvac - fine banshee - fine Raven - increase range of HSM to 8 and make a projectile move faster Bcruiser - increase build time
P
Zlot - fine Stalker - fine Sentry - make forcefield cost 75 energy, hallucination research to 50/50 instead of 100/100 HT - needs a bigger aoe for the price u have to pay to get them than 1.5 (it was 2, revert it back to 2) DT - fine Obs - fine Warprism - fine Immortal - fine Colossi - reduce range to 8 but make the upgrade 150/150 Phoenix - that unit needs a price reduction, dont know what Voidray - i really dont know but they need some change, unit mechanics itself is a problem Carrier - they need build speed increase to 100 (instead of 120) Archon - to make it viable as unit (wich is allways good) they need buf in range and aoe. Mothership - needs speed buff, and some new spells
Z
zergling - fine bling - fine roach - fine hydra - fine infestor - fine (insert unit) z needs a tier 2 cloaked unit (roaches and infestor are too slow) Mutalisk - fine Corruptor - needs a new spell (something FUN and USEFULL at the same time) Blord - range reduced to 8 Ultralisk - speed buff Overseer - needs one more spell
So i think i covered all QQ about units ive seen in topics since the beta started :D I tried to be objective as i could but just for the record - this is only my opinion so pls no flaming. tnx
Removing tank range would make them utterly useless..they are an ARTILLERY unit having range comparable to most non artillery units(marines ghosts marauders.. etc) would defeat the purpose of them being called a "siege tank"
Removing tank range would make them utterly useless..they are an ARTILLERY unit having range comparable to most non artillery units(marines ghosts marauders.. etc) would defeat the purpose of them being called a "siege tank"
I didnt say removing range, but to make it more reasonable in terms of balance. Colossi and Broodlords are alien "artillery" as well. U dont see them having range 13 do u? Plus they are tier 3. This a topic about BALANCE, not about what would be realistic in a imaginary SF future/movie/star wars and if u really wanna go there how do u know Colossi dont have a range of 5000 and can shoot down small planets? They are so tall after all...
The idea was to stop zerg to qq about tanks and to make T v T more than viking-tank only spamfest.
The biggest problem I can see is fungal growth is completely op against terran bio, its not even slightly viable to go bio because your whole army will be caked in green goo and baneling/ling/muta/whatever will just run over you. Other than that my biggest complaint is that within the next 6 months, give or take a few, TvT is going to be the most completely retarded mu ever, its already really bland and dry and half of the games of high ranked players end up with both players basically massing up 200 supply of units and then whoever has a slightly better unit comp wins.
Removing tank range would make them utterly useless..they are an ARTILLERY unit having range comparable to most non artillery units(marines ghosts marauders.. etc) would defeat the purpose of them being called a "siege tank"
I didnt say removing range, but to make it more reasonable in terms of balance. Colossi and Broodlords are alien "artillery" as well. U dont see them having range 13 do u? Plus they are tier 3. This a topic about BALANCE, not about what would be realistic in a imaginary SF future/movie/star wars and if u really wanna go there how do u know Colossi dont have a range of 5000 and can shoot down small planets? They are so tall after all...
The idea was to stop zerg to qq about tanks and to make T v T more than viking-tank only spamfest.
Tank range isn't the problem at all. it's the too-smart tank AI.
implement overkill and fighting against tanks will become much easier with units drawing fire, unit bombing, etc...
Removing tank range would make them utterly useless..they are an ARTILLERY unit having range comparable to most non artillery units(marines ghosts marauders.. etc) would defeat the purpose of them being called a "siege tank"
I didnt say removing range, but to make it more reasonable in terms of balance. Colossi and Broodlords are alien "artillery" as well. U dont see them having range 13 do u? Plus they are tier 3. This a topic about BALANCE, not about what would be realistic in a imaginary SF future/movie/star wars and if u really wanna go there how do u know Colossi dont have a range of 5000 and can shoot down small planets? They are so tall after all...
The idea was to stop zerg to qq about tanks and to make T v T more than viking-tank only spamfest.
No. There is nothing that comes even close to the artillery role of the Siege Tank. It is completely immobile while in this mode. Making its range that small would indeed make it useless due to the set up time plus being immobile. This is a key aspect that you seem to have forgotten.
I have such a hard time saying if a matchup is imbalanced. Whenever I lose I feel like I should have just done something different instead of "OMG IMBA" so from my own personal experience it all seems balanced, and I don't watch nearly enough pro games to be able to tell from that either.
Tank overkill is not the problem. It's an old idea for an old game. There's plenty of reasonable things that can be done to fix TvZ mech. For example I'd want things like 150/150/100s ventral sacs, 80-90s tunneling claws, +5s on Thor training time, increase upgraded overlord speed slightly with upgrade (they're the slowest dropships in the game), turn creep time back to what it was, and so on.
The point is everyone's all like "Zerg are supposed to drop and what not", which is a fine thing to say except that Zerg's dropping and other tactics are incredibly expensive and incredibly slow to get off the ground.
Though I'd also probably give zerg a new unit or something because well they have a huge gap in their army that you can just feel when playing them.
Removing tank range would make them utterly useless..they are an ARTILLERY unit having range comparable to most non artillery units(marines ghosts marauders.. etc) would defeat the purpose of them being called a "siege tank"
I didnt say removing range, but to make it more reasonable in terms of balance. Colossi and Broodlords are alien "artillery" as well. U dont see them having range 13 do u? Plus they are tier 3. This a topic about BALANCE, not about what would be realistic in a imaginary SF future/movie/star wars and if u really wanna go there how do u know Colossi dont have a range of 5000 and can shoot down small planets? They are so tall after all...
The idea was to stop zerg to qq about tanks and to make T v T more than viking-tank only spamfest.
this is not a good comparison. colossi can move quite freely when attacking and they dont take 4 seconds to siege then another 4 seconds to unsiege (total 8 secs).
most people complain about tanks because they run their whole army into like 8+ tanks that are already sieged and expect to win. this is where you attack something else or retreat.
Something about Terran having insane range in 3 units (Tanks, Thors, and Vikings) just seem to effectively kill things very efficiently that just make it so hard for the other races, especially zerg, to overcome. Something about the basic idea of tanks being very strong, then vikings providing long range protection against units like Broodlords, Thors doing an even better job of that against mutas, and then marines just doing good at everything just makes it extremely difficult for Zerg to handle.
On July 15 2010 13:44 Brokengamer wrote: Wait for a while before changing Tmech vs Z blizz
Not enough zerg players are using units other than roach/hydra. Im a zerg player and I think TvZ is fine.
I haven't seen a zerg player use roach/hydra vs Terran in months. Unless you're referring to silver level games this is just flat out lies. Please share some high level replays of people trying this, I could use a laugh about it.
On July 15 2010 13:44 Brokengamer wrote: Wait for a while before changing Tmech vs Z blizz
Not enough zerg players are using units other than roach/hydra. Im a zerg player and I think TvZ is fine.
I haven't seen a zerg player use roach/hydra vs Terran in months. Unless you're referring to silver level games this is just flat out lies. Please share some high level replays of people trying this, I could use a laugh about it.
Just a few. When zerg doesn't go hydra/roach against mech
Tank range isn't the problem at all. it's the too-smart tank AI.
implement overkill and fighting against tanks will become much easier with units drawing fire, unit bombing, etc...
Also good solution. The tricky part would be how to implement that without making other units do overkill as well.
Why not just make all units overkill? Adds more micro to the game. Besides, the only units that have the no-overkill AI are units with instantaneous attacks. Ranged units with attacks with travel times still overkill.
On July 15 2010 13:12 Logo wrote: Tank overkill is not the problem. It's an old idea for an old game. There's plenty of reasonable things that can be done to fix TvZ mech. For example I'd want things like 150/150/100s ventral sacs, 80-90s tunneling claws, +5s on Thor training time, increase upgraded overlord speed slightly with upgrade (they're the slowest dropships in the game), turn creep time back to what it was, and so on.
Before you just throw out the "it's a new game blah blah blah" argument, please at least go play BW. Tanks overkilling does not make them somehow completely weaker. In fact, they are still ridiculously powerful even when they overkill. All it does is enable the opponent to use micro to overcome the tank's power.
As it is now, splitting your army, using a unit to absorb damage, unit bombing, and essentially every micro trick is almost utterly useless in the face of seige tanks because they don't overkill. Yes, you can utilize drops and other such tatics, but often Terran mech includes tons of marines or vikings or even turrets in the field, which easily stomps incoming drops.
Additionally, it's not like overkill has been completely removed from the game. Like I said earlier, overkill still exists in SC2, just not for ranged units with instant damage attacks (i.e. seige tanks).
Tank range isn't the problem at all. it's the too-smart tank AI.
implement overkill and fighting against tanks will become much easier with units drawing fire, unit bombing, etc...
Also good solution. The tricky part would be how to implement that without making other units do overkill as well.
Why not just make all units overkill? Adds more micro to the game. Besides, the only units that have the no-overkill AI are units with instantaneous attacks. Ranged units with attacks with travel times still overkill.
On July 15 2010 13:12 Logo wrote: Tank overkill is not the problem. It's an old idea for an old game. There's plenty of reasonable things that can be done to fix TvZ mech. For example I'd want things like 150/150/100s ventral sacs, 80-90s tunneling claws, +5s on Thor training time, increase upgraded overlord speed slightly with upgrade (they're the slowest dropships in the game), turn creep time back to what it was, and so on.
Before you just throw out the "it's a new game blah blah blah" argument, please at least go play BW. Tanks overkilling does not make them somehow completely weaker. In fact, they are still ridiculously powerful even when they overkill. All it does is enable the opponent to use micro to overcome the tank's power.
As it is now, splitting your army, using a unit to absorb damage, unit bombing, and essentially every micro trick is almost utterly useless in the face of seige tanks because they don't overkill. Yes, you can utilize drops and other such tatics, but often Terran mech includes tons of marines or vikings or even turrets in the field, which easily stomps incoming drops.
Additionally, it's not like overkill has been completely removed from the game. Like I said earlier, overkill still exists in SC2, just not for ranged units with instant damage attacks (i.e. seige tanks).
Splitting your units still works it's just even MORE MICRO INTENSIVE b/c splash is smarter (and ofc no overkill) and units bunch more.
You can't just say "make tanks overkill that would fix the 'problem'" because BW was balanced for tanks having overkill, SC 2 is not, and there are better solutions, and that's assuming it's even a problem. Tanks having overkill would unbalance TvP imho.
On July 14 2010 10:46 IdrA wrote: look at the difference between tester and every other protoss player then realize no one near tester's caliber plays terran then consider that 90% of the top tier rts players playing sc2 right now chose zerg
if the game were balanced zerg would be winning 70%+ at high levels.
I've heard rumors that Tester will be switching to Terran somewhere. Is that true?
I'm pretty sure it is as I looked at his profile (the one that is in IdrA's division) and his most played race is terran.
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
i laughed.
keep dreaming brah.
Posts like these from silver league unknowns is why I very rarely post on SC2 forums. They don't know how to play, misinterpret every available piece of info they have and you can't change their opinion :/
Why not make a survey asking all the current excepted pros at the moment then? Their opinions would be very interesting to know. Or I don't know if it's possible, but make a poll where only ppls in diamond or a certain rank can post? (maybe post screenshots of their user on sc2 dunno) That'd be interesting, and at least we'll know these aren't just the "unknown silver" posting.
On July 15 2010 12:42 Newguy wrote: The biggest problem I can see is fungal growth is completely op against terran bio, its not even slightly viable to go bio because your whole army will be caked in green goo and baneling/ling/muta/whatever will just run over you. Other than that my biggest complaint is that within the next 6 months, give or take a few, TvT is going to be the most completely retarded mu ever, its already really bland and dry and half of the games of high ranked players end up with both players basically massing up 200 supply of units and then whoever has a slightly better unit comp wins.
Im a newb at terran, just started playing on monday.. but im 16-6 with them in Diamond and I havent lost yet vs a zerg if it gets into the mid-game.
I had one game specifically I remember where I basically did the bio crap, 5rax with a fast expo, and just pumped all my bio units with afew medivacs and like 3 hellions. He had like tonsss of roach/muta/ling with like 6 infestors just constantly fungal growthing me.. While I just sat there stimmed with medivacs healing. Guess who came out ontop in every battle? The bioball. I literally just stimmed and attack moved, and won everything even while fungal growthed.
So FG is not "overpowered". It is where it should be as a spell, but as the end all zerg spell, it doesnt compare at all with Swarm from BW.. Zerg needs something to deal with terran better in the late-game. My only solution would be if more people started doing baneling drops, but i doubt we'll see it cause its too micro intensive for your general players
On July 15 2010 15:40 Subversion wrote: my issue with mech is that you have to play REALLY well to beat it.
as a terran play you don't have to play well to beat a Zerg with mech.
Sure there are ways to counter it, but it shouldn't be as difficult as it is, since mech is so easy.
Thats pretty much the fact in TvP too, for terran. Ive been playing Terran these past days and the amount of work I put into each game is so minuscule compared to when I played Protoss and had to be super on my toes not to make even one tiny mistake or it was GG. With terran, ive had some huge mistakes in some games, and still able to come back and win in the end..
Tanks own ground. Thors totally demolish light air and are strong against Ground (ridiculous when repaired). Hellions utterly destroy the unit that actually would do good against Tanks/Thors (Masslinsgs) and can rape your ecoline in a few seconds. Vikings own heavy Air and make harass extremly easy. Add in Cliffdrops and it's like a trauma center for Zergs... You just hope that the Terrans unit composition has a hole or you catch him REALLY off guard.
Bio at least has obvious weakpoints... Rines die to Banelings, Marauders don't do great against Hydras and Lings, Broodlords totally destroy any Bio, Fungal Growth helps a ton, Roaches work decent as damage soakers, Mutas punish you for overcomitting to Marauders... It's still harder to play for Zerg, but nowhere near to the same extend as going against Metal.
I think it's hilarious to make poll's about stuff like that this early, just because it's not very accurate... ^^'
At first, Terran was the weakest race, Terran Mech seemed to be unplayable etc. then, a few changes later, it's suddenly heavily overpowered! xD
It's not all about the balance-changes or what appears to be a good strategy now, it just takes time to refine strategies and come up with solid BO's.
I would recommend everyone to stop carrying about this stuff that much and just try to come up with own BO's and ways to play.
For example: I've used Tanks in all the MU's from week1 of the beta, where they still seemed way too weak and it worked fine. I've not used a single Marauder in my ~200 most recent games as Terran and before I used them very seldom although they were totally imba and I managed to get wins nonetheless.
It's all about figuring out different ways to play the MU's and not about certain races, units, or MU's being imbalanced - at least not this early in the games lifespan.
The solution to Terran mech is just to make mutalisk viable. You do this by making Thor range shorter and/or making it an upgrade. Terrans can still use marines and turrets, but this slows down the power of the mech by forcing terran to go bio.
Another major factor is the fact that zerg is supposed to counter tanks/thors with zerglings but the smart cast shot of sieged tanks never overkills making 1000s of lings just die like nothing. (not even mentioning hellions as support).
And lots of these maps are just totally imbalanced TvZ (Incineration Zone, Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine [especially veritcal/horizontal positions], and Desert Oasis) And even Steppes of War is difficult because of the short distance.
Another thing about Terrans is that they wall in, It's really difficult to read their build even if you sac a lord or lings and see a techlab on a factory with a starport behind, it's just so easy for them to switch on the fly they can literally do anything. They could make a few hellions and a medivac, they could be making a thor/viking/medivac, they could hiding rax and making a seige tank bio push. They could even switch it up and make a banshee and hellions. Since zerg needs to have lair in order to deal with any of the air/cliff threats that weakens them severely in the early game especially if they need to make roaches/spines to defend the hellions.
How are mutalisks NOT viable against Terran? Forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control is not viable? Most top zergs use Mutas very effectively against Terran.
I'd argue that hydras have been overnerfed.
The counter to Tanks/Thors mid-game is roaches/mutas and the abuse of immobility. The counter to Tanks/Thors late-game is BLs or Ultra/Ling.
On July 15 2010 18:14 link0 wrote: How are mutalisks NOT viable against Terran? Forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control is not viable? Most top zergs use Mutas very effectively against Terran.
Thor's range and splash is so powerful that the main issue is that if you do one mistake with your muta they will all die and then you on the back foot. Along with the fact that he doesn't need to have map control to secure his nat then turtle till he has a ball capable of dealing with a bigger zerg army.
I can't answer all of those poll. I need a "i'm not sure" answer. :p
In fact, i'm stunned as a Gold player how many of you guys can be so sure of what is balanced or not. Maybe all of you are in top diamond division, but even then, when i watch my looses it's always that my opponent was better ( in macro, in micro, harrass or whatever ), and even when i watch some great player, or listen to Day 9, Gretorp & co it always appears quite balance to me.
If i have to vote for an imbalance thought, i'll probably choose TvZ, where mec' seems very efficient. But still, i think that players in general have some terrible habits, as we have already look at all possibilities and know everything about that game which is not even released yet. Specially zerg where we just start to see some use of drop, queens and tumor just recently. Maybe it's because of the mechanics, so different than the two other than it takes more time to discover the "advanced play", don't know. ( hope my english's not so bad )
On July 15 2010 20:42 Super_bricklayer wrote: I can't answer all of those poll. I need a "i'm not sure" answer. :p
In fact, i'm stunned as a Gold player how many of you guys can be so sure of what is balanced or not. Maybe all of you are in top diamond division, but even then, when i watch my looses it's always that my opponent was better ( in macro, in micro, harrass or whatever ), and even when i watch some great player, or listen to Day 9, Gretorp & co it always appears quite balance to me.
If i have to vote for an imbalance thought, i'll probably choose TvZ, where mec' seems very efficient. But still, i think that players in general have some terrible habits, as we have already look at all possibilities and know everything about that game which is not even released yet. Specially zerg where we just start to see some use of drop, queens and tumor just recently. Maybe it's because of the mechanics, so different than the two other than it takes more time to discover the "advanced play", don't know. ( hope my english's not so bad )
haha man I like your attitude . I also agree that whenever I lose, I think, my opponent did better than me or I messed up, or luck, but not, OMG IMBALANCE!!
My opinion this is that Mech would be fine vs Zerg if Thors didn't splash air. If they either removed the splash completely and instead raised Thors air damage or made it bounce (like the Muta-shots) 2-4 times then mass Mutalisks would be much more viable as a counter to mech. Another solution would be to let Corruptors be able to hit Thors (like how they can attack Colossus).
On July 15 2010 20:42 Super_bricklayer wrote: I can't answer all of those poll. I need a "i'm not sure" answer. :p
In fact, i'm stunned as a Gold player how many of you guys can be so sure of what is balanced or not. Maybe all of you are in top diamond division, but even then, when i watch my looses it's always that my opponent was better ( in macro, in micro, harrass or whatever ), and even when i watch some great player, or listen to Day 9, Gretorp & co it always appears quite balance to me.
If i have to vote for an imbalance thought, i'll probably choose TvZ, where mec' seems very efficient. But still, i think that players in general have some terrible habits, as we have already look at all possibilities and know everything about that game which is not even released yet. Specially zerg where we just start to see some use of drop, queens and tumor just recently. Maybe it's because of the mechanics, so different than the two other than it takes more time to discover the "advanced play", don't know. ( hope my english's not so bad )
haha man I like your attitude . I also agree that whenever I lose, I think, my opponent did better than me or I messed up, or luck, but not, OMG IMBALANCE!!
Did you also thought that when you played vs protoss (if you did) before all the nerfs? :> Sometimes the problem is indeed imbalance, i don't see a point pretending everything can be attributed to players' incompetence. It's pretty certain the game is not perfectly balanced, the question is just to figure out where.
Sure there's balance to improve, and there will be for years. It's just i can't be so affirmative "TvP is imba" ; "this is the thor" or "this is EMP" etc...
It feels wrong, and i actually quite surprise also when we see the patch and stuff. For example when Bnet forum was all about "OMG void ray are OP", the nerf was just a little less shoot radius. I mean, for 80% of whiners, it doesn't change anything, void ray will still kill their lonely queen waiting for the lair to be complete. But people seems to calm down. For no reason really, that nerf was for really great player, and still white rah still using them so well that it feels exactly the same.
Just a personal issue here that i have with the poll, and some comments. Well, not an issue but just a feel, not a big deal. ^^
Edit : And yes, even before a lot of patch, all my looses was because my opponent was better or i didn't scout well and get screwed up by lame cheese or stuff like that. ( ofc there's exeption, like the larva bug, but it's a bug ).
On July 15 2010 08:22 ta2 wrote: TvZ - T massively favoured TvP - T favoured PvZ - P slightly favoured
TvZ - siege tanks + thors + MMM = invincibility TvP - siege tanks + MMM = 90% win PvZ - very close to fair but maybe larvae should spawn a tiny bit faster. Z is always on the edge of losing to a gateway push.
In PvZ also I think it's a bit unfair how if P goes collossi then Z is forced to respond by making corruptors, there is no other way to win, therefore P is dictating play. On the other hand P typically gets wasted when Z responds with enough corruptors.
Terran simply needs nerf. Why do they have like 5 more units than Z and 2 more units than P?
So all terran has to do is get every unit in it's arsenal and then auto win? That makes tons of sense.
On July 15 2010 17:36 CharlieMurphy wrote: The solution to Terran mech is just to make mutalisk viable. You do this by making Thor range shorter and/or making it an upgrade. Terrans can still use marines and turrets, but this slows down the power of the mech by forcing terran to go bio.
Another major factor is the fact that zerg is supposed to counter tanks/thors with zerglings but the smart cast shot of sieged tanks never overkills making 1000s of lings just die like nothing. (not even mentioning hellions as support).
And lots of these maps are just totally imbalanced TvZ (Incineration Zone, Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine [especially veritcal/horizontal positions], and Desert Oasis) And even Steppes of War is difficult because of the short distance.
Another thing about Terrans is that they wall in, It's really difficult to read their build even if you sac a lord or lings and see a techlab on a factory with a starport behind, it's just so easy for them to switch on the fly they can literally do anything. They could make a few hellions and a medivac, they could be making a thor/viking/medivac, they could hiding rax and making a seige tank bio push. They could even switch it up and make a banshee and hellions. Since zerg needs to have lair in order to deal with any of the air/cliff threats that weakens them severely in the early game especially if they need to make roaches/spines to defend the hellions.
That seems like a neat idea. You could even roll 250mm and range into one "Heavy Weapons" upgrade.
The thing about the Thor is that it's really become a primarily TvZ unit from my understanding. It's not really clear to me why/when you'd use it TvP or TvT other than drops. I suppose TvT it can absorb tank fire or support vikings, but of course any change is symmetrical in TvT. Is that accurate that Thor is primarily for TvZ right now? If so it does seem like a good possibility for taking the brunt of any TvZ changes.
Though it would suck if TvZ was transition to muta or die like ZvZ.
On July 15 2010 17:36 CharlieMurphy wrote: The solution to Terran mech is just to make mutalisk viable. You do this by making Thor range shorter and/or making it an upgrade. Terrans can still use marines and turrets, but this slows down the power of the mech by forcing terran to go bio.
Another major factor is the fact that zerg is supposed to counter tanks/thors with zerglings but the smart cast shot of sieged tanks never overkills making 1000s of lings just die like nothing. (not even mentioning hellions as support).
And lots of these maps are just totally imbalanced TvZ (Incineration Zone, Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine [especially veritcal/horizontal positions], and Desert Oasis) And even Steppes of War is difficult because of the short distance.
Another thing about Terrans is that they wall in, It's really difficult to read their build even if you sac a lord or lings and see a techlab on a factory with a starport behind, it's just so easy for them to switch on the fly they can literally do anything. They could make a few hellions and a medivac, they could be making a thor/viking/medivac, they could hiding rax and making a seige tank bio push. They could even switch it up and make a banshee and hellions. Since zerg needs to have lair in order to deal with any of the air/cliff threats that weakens them severely in the early game especially if they need to make roaches/spines to defend the hellions.
Do you honestly feel that a terran who goes bio has any chance at all of winning against a good zerg player? lolfungalgrowth is too powerful in TvZ to go bio.
On July 15 2010 18:14 link0 wrote: How are mutalisks NOT viable against Terran? Forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control is not viable? Most top zergs use Mutas very effectively against Terran.
I'd argue that hydras have been overnerfed.
The counter to Tanks/Thors mid-game is roaches/mutas and the abuse of immobility. The counter to Tanks/Thors late-game is BLs or Ultra/Ling.
The problem is not countering Tanks/Thors late-game, but countering Tanks/Thors midgame lol. Anyway, "forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control" is all well and good, until you've sunk 100 minerals and, most importantly, 100 gas EACH into a unit that is completely and utterly useless in a straight up fight once Thors hit, and completely and utterly useless altogether once he has reacted and anti-aired his base up properly. Then, with any significant amount of money dumped into Mutas, T's army will be significantly larger than Z's, allowing for a devastating push that Z has really no answer to.
Plus, pure mech is not the only thing tipping the balance in TvZ. Mech/Bio is ridiculously flexible from start to finish in that game. Try attacking a Tank/M/M ball with any combination of standard Zerg ground units. I'm not talking hive here, and usually not even a significant amount of lair units.
On July 15 2010 18:14 link0 wrote: How are mutalisks NOT viable against Terran? Forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control is not viable? Most top zergs use Mutas very effectively against Terran.
I'd argue that hydras have been overnerfed.
The counter to Tanks/Thors mid-game is roaches/mutas and the abuse of immobility. The counter to Tanks/Thors late-game is BLs or Ultra/Ling.
The problem is not countering Tanks/Thors late-game, but countering Tanks/Thors midgame lol. Anyway, "forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control" is all well and good, until you've sunk 100 minerals and, most importantly, 100 gas EACH into a unit that is completely and utterly useless in a straight up fight once Thors hit, and completely and utterly useless altogether once he has reacted and anti-aired his base up properly. Then, with any significant amount of money dumped into Mutas, T's army will be significantly larger than Z's, allowing for a devastating push that Z has really no answer to.
Plus, pure mech is not the only thing tipping the balance in TvZ. Mech/Bio is ridiculously flexible from start to finish in that game. Try attacking a Tank/M/M ball with any combination of standard Zerg ground units. I'm not talking hive here, and usually not even a significant amount of lair units.
Yeah this is where a lot of the problem comes in to me. In my opinion where Zerg loses its momentum vs Terran is in that mid game. By time you have lair tech with overlord drops or burrow move roaches in a safe build the Terran has already 'settled' a good deal.
That's why I think Zerg should have some of its research times reduced like Overlord Drop (130s currently) or tunneling claws (110s). It seems silly that these 2nd upgrades take so long to research given that overlord drop is effectively a 300/300 investment as it's useless without overlord speed and tunneling claws is 250/250 since it's useless without burrow.
Yes the base upgrades are useful without tunneling claws or sacs, but if your goal is "I want burrow move roaches" then that means a 250/250 investment plain and simple.
By comparison when an upgrade is deemed necessary for a Terran or Protoss unit (Conc shell, Siege mode, and Psi Storm) it's always available as a sub 100 research. Now I realize that say overlord dropping isn't necessary for a unit, but it's pretty clear that OL dropping and/or burrow move roaches has become necessary for the ZvT matchup.
To put it in a shorter form, I feel that the window where I can make good use of drops and burrow move to put pressure on a Terran opponent before they get a good mech mass and the window where I can safely have burrow move or overlord drops (and something to actually drop) do NOT overlap. So instead I have to try to drop at a time where Terran is already in a great position to defend it and hope I can exploit a mistake or buy time until another good window opens up during which Terran is free to dictate more of the game's flow.
On July 16 2010 01:40 EliteAzn wrote: What need to be added to this (and the billions of other race threads) is...
"What race do you currently play?"
Just by looking at the polls, I can already tell the majority of voters PROBABLY are zerg players...but that's just an educated guess...
Why would Zerg players be over representative? Is it more of the nature of Zerg players to vote in forum polls? If it is, which I don't believe it is, then why are Zerg players more likely to vote? Because Zerg players generaly are whiners?
I do beleive that some players do vote that their own race is the least favored but those votes evens up since (according to earlier polls) the prefered race distribution is quite even between the races.
On July 16 2010 00:52 Logo wrote: By comparison when an upgrade is deemed necessary for a Terran or Protoss unit (Conc shell, Siege mode, and Psi Storm) it's always available as a sub 100 research. .
Erm, Siege mode is 100/100, and I was under the impression Psi Storm is 200/200, unless it's been reduced in some patch, and I didn't notice.
On July 16 2010 00:52 Logo wrote: By comparison when an upgrade is deemed necessary for a Terran or Protoss unit (Conc shell, Siege mode, and Psi Storm) it's always available as a sub 100 research. .
Erm, Siege mode is 100/100, and I was under the impression Psi Storm is 200/200, unless it's been reduced in some patch, and I didn't notice.
Time, not resources.
Siege mode is 80s, Conc is 60s, Psi is 110s but you have chronoboost.
Pretty clear that T is pretty OP in the mind of the vast majority... let's see if Blizzard can clean up some of the crap they've taken on Z as of the last 12 patches or so now...
I don't think mech is AS imba as people think vZ but I do agree that the upgrades for Z like ovie drop/tunneling claws need to come faster or cheaper or perhaps both.
On July 16 2010 03:40 1egend wrote: instead of nerfing T what is required is a upgrade buff for tunneling claws to come out faster
and that would change??
i'm sorry but I'm currently playing in diamond vs top terrans (500-600 diamond) and it seems that they advance while using towers for detection or 1-2 ravens. Getting tunneling claw faster would be............. useless!
tanks just need to be like in SC:BW (overkill and all that crap) or tanks get a serious nerf or thors get a serious air nerf.
Either way
Overkill will make sure that some unit survives damage nerf will make sure that some unit survives air nerf would make sure that we could use air to counter tank.
On July 14 2010 03:23 Sadistx wrote: Just like the previous poll showed, the general public has no idea wtf it's talking about.
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
TvP is T favored.
ZvP is Z favored again.
After the game i just play i absolutely 100% agree fungal = rofl, atleast with fucking plague you had a way to save your army with this they hit 1 key aclick and your entire army dies, with the way that shit clumps up this is like 100x easier
PvZ is so fucking hard for protoss also, push out? what mass speedling counter? die. or some other retarded shit like mutas that just lol rape rape rape all over your shit.
TvP LOL I EMP YOU CANT DODGE GG NO RE NOOB.
thats just me though.
Ive managed to BM quite a few people because of dumb shit like this -.-
could u do the community a favor and play a different game? It's people like you that blame imbalance every time they lose a game then proceed to ragequit and BM instead of saying gg. Don't deny it either... you admit it yourself at the end of your post. Multiplayer would just be so much more pleasent without morons like you...
The sole problem with the TvZ match-up is late game mech. Once it gets to late game, T has his macro up enough to counter basically anything.
before late game is mech's weakness. Yea, mech has the tools to counter everything, but T is still an incredibly timing-intense race and getting out enough Thors, Tanks, or Hellions to counter Mutas/Hydras/Speedlings takes a hefty amount of time, especially since mech is incredibly gas intense. This, combined with mech being without a doubt the slowest army in the game, is mechs sole weakness.
However, this doesn't make up for the fact that Z still doesn't have any army that can compete (with either race really) late game. That is just bad design. What simply needs to happen is Tanks need to overkill. No, you don't need to make everything else overkill, just Tanks. Why? Because they're fucking awesome and need to be toned down in a way that makes them not destroy every ground unit in the game except Ultralisks and Immortals (without EMP), yet still make them valuable and keep their role and place and keep mech a viable option.
The solution to Terran mech is just to make mutalisk viable. You do this by making Thor range shorter and/or making it an upgrade. Terrans can still use marines and turrets, but this slows down the power of the mech by forcing terran to go bio.
This is a terrible idea. Thors are one of the slowest units in the game. Doing this would make Turrets and Marines the only viable defense against Mutalisks, which would make mech basically a useless build.
Dont mistake race specific pressure for balance issues. I feel as a protoss player that zerg is the hardest race to fight aginst, I also feel that it is the most fun to play aginst. so many things to keep track of. Similar to BW when i played terran tvz was the most fun matchup I could ask for but it aginst my hardest match up.
When you vote a race to have a better chance of winning over your own find out why, if its just 1 specific build that gives you trouble (such as mech in tvz) then find a way to beat it by trying not to think so linearly, then see if the polls dont change
On July 14 2010 04:28 JohannesH wrote: Why do maps so rarely get mentioned in SC2 balance discusions...
I second that. Maps currently favor Terran pretty heavily. Especially the maps that has high ground near the mineral patch of main or natural. Tanks can abuse that so incredibly easily.
I also said ZvT favors Terrans, ZvP favors neither, ZvP is the most fun. Except when the Protoss goes Void Ray rush. That gets annoying ;/
they have got to be terran nerfs inc sometime after release, i mean if solely for the fact people have whined about it more than anything else. I wouldn't be very upset if they chose to keep terran the way it is, but one thing that pisses me off is they nerfed protoss for a lot less than what terran has been pulling in the past few patches. i mean P was just strung up with nerfs one after the other (i dont think they were unfair) and people expressed even less complaint about some of the things they nerfed, and now an overwhelming majorit of people are declaring T a little imba (i say a littlebecause dont think the message is they are OP just a little too good). and blizzard seems to ignore the complaints even though they have basis.
I do feel bad for zergs they have had it rough for the entire beta (everything except the roach has been pretty mediocre). the problem isnt the units imo its the design, the zerg have to be susceptible to so many different timing pushes and unit composition because if they were any more pwerful it would be way too hard to disrupt their economy (something you have to do or you will lose). honestly i think 250/250 food cap would make this a lot better
TvZ even as a terran player I think it's harder for zerg to win. (Need to allow more Roach play since the food increase.) TvP its fairly balanced protoss seem to cry to much imo.
ZvP couple times i've played as zerg I find it balanced and a fun match up. (almost got me to switch zerg)
On July 16 2010 00:21 Lite.wasalreadytaken wrote: You should add mirror matches, heh. I think TvT is imba.
It would be the clear winner if there was a least fun category.
TvT is pretty decent. imho PvP is the by far worst mirror. the matchup is so retarded on so many levels. after some time at the end of p2 i just left evry pvp i randomed the second the game started. couldnt stand it anymore.
TvT can be very fun if it doesnt end up in the huge mass viking+ few tanks turtle partys. the dynamic between marauders,tanks,vikings,thors and banshees is pretty cool.
imho TvT > ZvZ >>>>>PvP as far as mirrors go.
I
second that. Maps currently favor Terran pretty heavily. Especially the maps that has high ground near the mineral patch of main or natural. Tanks can abuse that so incredibly easily.
what ive been saying for months. so much of the balance problems are related to the horrible maps. outside of metalopolis there is not a single decent map in the pool. ofc Mech is imba when we are playing on maps like steppes where you leapfrog once and can siege your enemys natural.
i really think ZvT is super fine on metalopolis. not so much on steppes or kulas.
On July 03 2010 18:22 Sadistx wrote: Is there a way to count up all the bans of people with protoss, terran and zerg icons respectively? (I mean before they got their lock and nuke icons )
I have a theory I need to test out ^_^
Isn't the default an SCV though for race? Most low-count posters who don't change anything. Or tdot, who is always an SCV lawl.
Also rofl XeRo. Whatevs.
Yeah, but my theory was that majority of 100+ post count posters that are permabanned are protoss. Maybe not the absolute majority, but like 40/30/30
On July 14 2010 08:04 prodiG wrote: EDIT: tvz is fine.
I don't see zergs trying to dismantle my army properly, almost ever. 90% of the zergs I play get a hydra infestor ling army and try to 1a2a3a into my tanks, and then die after their whole army gets annihilated in two volleys.
I played a game last night where the zerg screwed my timing attack up, kept me in my base with mutas long enough to build up a strong econonmy and a ling/baneling force to constantly bash my expansion in until i died. The game was sloppy on my part, but I was still really surprised at home much trouble it gave me.
Long story short: Stop being bad, use tech paths that don't revolve around "derp i make guise LoL 1a2a3a into tank ball" Use mutas to pick off and delay whatever you can. If you let the terran turtle his way to 200/200 + 3/3 + map covered in turrets and towers, and you haven't taken the map already and can throw 150 supply at him every 30 seconds then you deserve to lose.
Dude, it's not even that. Zerg can STILL 1a2a3a into a terran army and win. Before T has critical mass of tanks with upgrades and 3-4 thors all of which cost like 4000 gas, Z can easily overpower T's position with a good unit mix and some micro.
MMM dies to fungal + anything, ultras actually rape everything now like they were supposed to and banelings are still OP.
Unless you turtle HARDCORE, Z will have the advantage. And I didn't even mention broodlords/nydus/disable building spell.
TvZ is definitely NOT T favored.
He's so intent on trying to say SC2 TvZ is balanced when the rest of the community nows it's not that he will say stuff like "ultras actually rape everything now" "banelings OP" "fungal so good"
I don't even advocate TvZ in SC2, if you guys know me, I was arguing about BROODWAR's TvZ.
And when Idra finally responds to this thread by saying current SC2's TvZ is imba, SadistX gets really defensive and starts saying stuff like "don't theorycraft"
Thanks, but I'd rather listen to a professional gamer than the biggest Terran troll on a website.
SadistX lol. His posts about Terran are always super defensive and biased. This kid is ridiculous lol. How is he not banned yet? You can make fun of me all you want, but when you try to say Zerg is not underpowered in SC2, or that Mech TvZ in SC2 is not imba and try to argue with Idra, it makes you look dumb.
Time to go back to being banned
Bye all. I love you. There is NO way SadistX did not read this post, since I sent him a PM. Rofl. I'm betting 50 bucks that he's gonna ignore this thread to save his face lol.
As a Protoss in the diamond league, PvT is T favoured without a doubt. Sometimes, no matter what build I use, I can't even do anything. The only reason I won against Terran was because they just sat in their base and I took a bunch of expos. ZvP seems to me to be the most balanced. I have had a lot of back-and-forth games that were really fun and it didn't seem like any of us had an inherent advantage. PvP still eludes me. I haven't read much theory so I think it's natural that the mirror match will hinder me the most.
EPT
). ZvP is cool, because there are quite much strats viable for both sides, scouting matters, both sides can apply pressure and there are no big imbas. ZvT is pretty hard from zerg perspective, either because of lack of good strats developed or because of terran imbaness. I won't judge, it's too early to tell.
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