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On July 14 2010 14:28 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote:
i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok?
sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else.
unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate. Diamond league is meaningless to the conversation.
Remember that this game is still in beta. The people we think of as 'pros' on this game play in the diamond leagues and don't have records much more phenomenal than that of other top diamond players.
The discrepancy between pro and high-end diamond is going to increase as the pro scene develops, but right now the difference isn't gigantic (though still significant).
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I didn't read the entire thread, so this may have been pointed out, but did anyone else notice the Terran Bias of the OP? In all the match-ups involving Terran, T was listed first. Could potentially skew the results if everyone is thinking of Terran first, and all the nasty things they can do to people.
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for once I agree with IdrA?? (whats this world coming to)
If we had a Tester or someone playing terran right now, or even if IdrA was to play terran in foreign tournaments, with his CJ experience, it would dominate White-Ra and DIMAGA and everyone with no problem right now. Not saying IdrA is better than White-ra and DIMAGA, Cause I definitely dont think he is, but he has the korean mechanics to maximize the potential of a race.. it would just not be pretty.
Of course, Maka is putting up strong results right now but hes not what you call a "top-tier" gamer.. If we see someone like Upmagic or Cool, or even if Moon or Check came to play terran.. It would be a scary scary sight.
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As a diamond level terran player, zerg is far and away my hardest matchup. In order to have any chance at winning, I have to harass constantly throughout the entire game, and I have to push before infestors show up. Mutalisks I can deal with fairly easily with marine/thor, but infestors are a joke. If I go infantry, BAM! fungal growth. If I go mech, BAM! neural parasite on my thors while the roaches clean up. The only way I can handle a zerg army with 4+ infestors is by catching them out of position, which is not an easy task, considering tanks take 3 years to siege up.
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On July 14 2010 13:52 onmach wrote:
When I say snipe tanks, I mean you can use infested terran while burrowed, right? So you just spawn an infested terran right next to one of the tanks and all the others fire on it. If there are 3+ seige tanks this works wonders, and it is cheap. You don't even need burrow if there is a cliff nearby (like he is pushing your main on steppes or lt).
Zealotboms and Infestedbombs do work, but they often just aren't worth it. You're better off using the energy for FG or NP. The reason why unit bombing worked so well in BW was due to overkill. Now, there is no overkill so your bombing will often not yield very positive results at all.
My honest opinion is:
Re-implement tank overkill = balanced game
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I'm willing to take Tester or Artosis or Idra's views on this to heart. I mean, honestly, if Jaedong and Flash switched to SC2 who would win? Those are the types of questions we need to be answering here, not what happens in platinum.
Diamond league is meaningless to the conversation.
So just because I am not playing the game on the so called "prolvl" my observations are meaningless?
Why do we even have threads with balance discussions then?
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On July 14 2010 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:My honest opinion is:
Re-implement tank overkill = balanced game Units with an instant attack (no moving projectiles) don't overkill in SC2. It has been the case since patch 0. It's not just tanks. Banelings, for instance, don't overkill. I think roaches don't "overkill" as well.
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I think the matchup poll should be changed a little; an option should be added for the other way around on different race matchups, so that you have all 9 choices.
zvp
pvz
tvp
pvt
zvt
tvz
pvp
tvt
zvz
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I think the "most fun" poll should separate the non mirror matches, because PvZ might be alot more fun than ZvP for people or vice versa
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On July 14 2010 14:11 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 13:20 Sadistx wrote:On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote:On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found. Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10 Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it. Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene). If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues? i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate. Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay? actually its just an emphasis of the fact that theres no top level rts players playing terran and only a couple playing protoss, and win rates and tournament wins are still pretty balanced racially. if anything its been tilting away from zerg.
You can't really say "its been tilting away from zerg", what is your sample size in tournaments that happened in phase 2, like 3 tournaments? If it's been tilting from Z, who are the top terrans that entered the scene that are making it this way?
You also cant look at different patches and just lump all tournament wins of all time together. It has to be a lot of games on 1 patch, and there simply haven't been enough tournaments yet after T nerfs to confirm that TvZ is still somehow imbalanced in favor of T.
if IdrA was to play terran in foreign tournaments, with his CJ experience, it would dominate White-Ra and DIMAGA and everyone with no problem right now.
That's utterly and completely false, but I would actually pay money to see TvP or TvZ idra vs WhiteRa and Dimaga respectively. I'm sure the ukranian beasts will prove you wrong.
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The main reason I believe for the TvZ "imbalance" is the level of micro and macro needed to outplay a T Mech (really high) since its only glaring weakness is terrible mobility. In order to abuse that, Z needs to abuse expansions and increase overall mobility to a point where T is forced to split up his force or be flanked. At that point though, it's still rather difficult, because at any time, engaging the main force requires much less effort for the T than the Z. There is a small window when the Tanks are unsieged when Z could make a surprise flank or unburrow, but still this is difficult with the great sight Vikings provide.
The only composition I can think of atm that could straight up battle a T Mech (which for Z is still very dependent on composition position) is roaches in front to tank the Tank volleys, hydra following behind for vikings + dps, and broodlords for overall awesomeness. Once the hydras are out, however, it's easy game for Mech once again.
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On July 14 2010 14:52 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:My honest opinion is:
Re-implement tank overkill = balanced game Units with an instant attack (no moving projectiles) don't overkill in SC2. It has been the case since patch 0. It's not just tanks. Banelings, for instance, don't overkill. I think roaches don't "overkill" as well.
I meant re-implement overkill from BW.
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Wow.. ever since new patch I'm having even more trouble vs T and P... especially every single game vs P it's guaranteed i'm gona get rushed and have to prepare for it while P can easily expand and I can't right after I finally beat it off.
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IMO all of the TvX matchups are pretty close to balanced, with slight edges in terran's favour.
But TvP turns into complete shit lategame when protoss can just warp in templars everywhere so you can't deny expansions at all. It's really stupid how, if you try to attack an expo, if your army isn't vastly superior to theirs, they can just warp in templars and storm/feedback everything immediately.
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In TvP, there are ghosts. T wins that one, unless the toss perfectly micros, which the terran doesn't have to do. Don't even try to tell me a terran fears templar like a toss fears ghosts, "oh look, I'll dodge the storm, take equivalent to a few hits, and be on my merry way" compared to "wow, all my units just got their life knocked in half and my casters are all useless, guess I'll run for it while a bunch of my units get picked off."
ZvT, I have a lot of trouble with too, that might be because I find it hard to transition away from roaches and hydras. Infestors are good, but I'm sure a ghost could be just as effective against the infestor as they are against templar. Not to mention ghosts do serious damage to hyrdas, mutas, and lings.
PvZ, it's the matchup to see. They go together so well. Too bad they are both loosers in the grand scheme of things.
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I am still sticking with my theory that Blizzard wants imbalance for the release date.
My guess is that the majority of casuals will start playing online with Terran because they feel familiar due to the campaign.
That explains why we still have smart tanks and Terrans the magical golden patchrod up their buttocks.
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I play mainly terran so on the matchup that was most fun I made sure to include matches that I would mainly watch which definately puts zvp at the top
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It's not that mech is impossibly hard to deal with as Zerg, it's actually not nearly as hard as people make it out to be. The problem is the huge time frame that Terran denies scouting. Basically anything that Terran rolls out of their base with may have to be dealt with on the fly. If they transition continuously, then they can really get Zerg on the ropes because they have to deal with each change in real time and don't have the time to get ahead. I don't just mean different units completely, but rather the ratios of the composition. There are different appropriate responses to Tank-heavy mech versus Thor-heavy mech or even Hellion-heavy mech.
What I typically notice in the matchup is that the player that sets the tempo and forces the other into a chain of responses first is likely to win. Between wall mechanics and the sheer number of early options of a Terran, they obviously have more capacity for early pressure than Zerg.
If the matchup is truly unbalanced, then I think one or both of these reasons are the source.
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On July 14 2010 15:05 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 14:11 IdrA wrote:On July 14 2010 13:20 Sadistx wrote:On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote:On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found. Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10 Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it. Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene). If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues? i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate. Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay? actually its just an emphasis of the fact that theres no top level rts players playing terran and only a couple playing protoss, and win rates and tournament wins are still pretty balanced racially. if anything its been tilting away from zerg. You can't really say "its been tilting away from zerg", what is your sample size in tournaments that happened in phase 2, like 3 tournaments? If it's been tilting from Z, who are the top terrans that entered the scene that are making it this way? You also cant look at different patches and just lump all tournament wins of all time together. It has to be a lot of games on 1 patch, and there simply haven't been enough tournaments yet after T nerfs to confirm that TvZ is still somehow imbalanced in favor of T.
since the patch that fixed tank splash, and especially since the 2 supply roach, terrans have definitely been winning more and more tournaments. all of the smaller foreign stuff like zotac, esl, craftcup, gosucoaching, as well as maka and loner or hannibal taking an aiur master's thing, maka winning the big gom invitational.
and, once again, you're completely ignoring the point that almost all of the top players were established players in starcraft and a rare few from other games. there are tons of accomplished players playing zerg, then you have tester playing protoss, and the best terran in the world was a war3 amateur who never really did much.
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On July 14 2010 03:42 Gnial wrote:
I was a pure T player through Phase 1, got up to the top of diamond but I was in an easy division, so it was probably like top 20 diamond. All I heard from everyone was how OP T is against everything, in particular protoss, so I decided to switch races to P for phase 2. I'm at the top of diamond again, and I've won over 90% of my PvT's so far, I only lost a PvT in placement matches. (Lost a lot of PvZ's, but I have no build for that M/U t.t)
In my experience most of the people complaining about OP's haven't tried to learn the other race. You don't realise how effective it is to force the MM ball to stim and then run away, until its been done to you. Or how effective infestors are vs any T build until your watch your entire army get abused and annihilated by it.
OP threads are silly.
This.....
I play terran mainly (99%) and my friend plays toss. Every once and a while we find it fun to switch everything up. When I play I usually go 1/1/1 instead of MM because the 1/1/1 is much safer vs alot of things the toss can go, VRays and DT are an example of this. But my friend was having alot of trouble vs MM that other players would go. After we did one of our I play toss he plays terran matches his win rate vs MM in the early game moved from somewhere low to pretty high I would say.
As for zvt have you ever tried using kamakazi overlords filled with suicidal banelings. I promise you that some people out there have and my tanks don't like it very much. Even if it doesn't kill the tanks it will kill all of the support units as MM and hellion both get clobbered by banelings.
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EPT
