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As a zerg player:
ZvZ:
It's just a mes on who can mass more lings early on or able to mass something else entirely.
ZvP:
It's alright in the beginning. Zerg's early game is strong and protoss should (imh, NEED) block off their ramps and chokes to prevent some serious injury and then it's all mindgames from there (or something. But mid-late game, depends.
If zerg has mass mutas, could be GG for toss. Otherwise, zerg needs to find a way to harasss protoss (nydus worm or doomdrops for example), stalkers can out-kite roaches without speed and a duo of zealots kills zerglings (til over a critical number). You can tech to get speed for roach and lings all you want but protoss could tech as well and get fast immortals.
If toss has a large army with Zealots on lings, stalkers/immortals on roaches, phoenixes on mutas, colossi/high templar for AoE damage that smokes lings and shit like crazy then its gg for zerg. That shit just absolutely melts Zerg.
ZvT: Terran can just totally turtle the shit out of zerg, be extra paranoid and get mech and move out and BAM, zerg is done
Oh and a bunch of marines and marauders KILL roaches and lings together.
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i would say all the matchups seem fairly balanced, not like there are any major ballance issues imo, i am worries about viod ray and infestor tricks though
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Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/
and Mutas can't stand a front fight.
its just not true, if he starts spamming only mutas, u will never have enough pheonixes up. and if the muta count reaches a critical number, the aoe rapes every realistic number of pheonixes.
sentries: too slow
stalkers: only usefull with blink, but dont deal much dmg, u need like a 1:1 ratio stalker vs mutas
cannons: totally useless (they get instant raped, cost a lot and u give up total map control)
storms: takes ages and very expensive to get, but works quite well, u still need stalkers to finish the mutas, u will have massive gas problems
so stop posting bs like 1 phoenix> any # of mutas
even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically.
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On July 14 2010 23:55 Lucius2 wrote:Show nested quote +Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/
and Mutas can't stand a front fight. even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically.
While this is very true, I deliberately didn't mention how a tech-switch plays into things. They can show mass ling, or even a Roach Warren with no plans for Roaches, forcing the P's hand into a ground army. Save up some gas, pop 10 Mutas at once, and Protoss will never catch up. If you protect those Mutas and just keep adding numbers, Protoss becomes bound to his base and slowly loses.
Being caught off-guard by Mutas as a Protoss pretty much seals your fate. Even if you see the Spire, it's not like you can Cannon up and move your anti-air units out of your base. Unless your strategy involved opening Stargate and getting a Phoenix fleet started, you will be hard-pressed to stop a dedicated Mutalisk attack.
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If blizzard is balancing the game for newbies, at higher level it will be next to impossible to have it balanced, and what will happen is that the hardest races will be the best at top level.
A analogy. If we give an F1 car to a newbie and put another driving a road car, they probably arrive at the end at the same time simply because the F1 is so hard to control, he will spin and won't take full advantage of its power. Same for instance with zerg. That's why in Korea it seems everyone is asking for zerg nerfs, because unlike in US and EU, they are able there to take it to its full power, and reveal how strong of a race it is. Zerg should lose on big armies fight because their strength is not there. However, what a lot of newbies do is big armies fight, unfortunately zerg gets buffed so it stands a chance on those fights, unbalancing the matchup, making zerg and terran F1's hard to control, and protoss a road car. They might be equally fast at lower levels, but at top, it's much different.
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Z and P are allright, nerf T
Best regards, Z.
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On July 15 2010 00:19 Duelist wrote: Same for instance with zerg. That's why in Korea it seems everyone is asking for zerg nerfs, because unlike in US and EU, they are able there to take it to its full power, and reveal how strong of a race it is.
I think people must get over this whole "zerg is overpowering in Asia" since this "fact" is months old and doesn't hold true anymore. There was a stage where zergs were winning almost everything in Asia but that hasn't been the case for awhile. Stop using old information for the basis of your arguments. There are FAR too many factors to do such a thing.
Idra also always brings up a very good point about players which on it's own is hard to equate but it still gives doubt to any "absolute" theory.
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To all the people insisting Z>T or even near equal you either clearly haven't played a very high number of games in this match up or are just trolling. Quite simply the difficulty in playing TvZ vs playing ZvT is quite amazing. I find it far easier beating Zerg as T, there's just no comparison. I've played around 900 or so games and just got to 5 diamond for comparison. I've always loved Zerg way more than any other race but I really feel like Blizzard has taken a crap on the race and it saddens me immensely. Yes, there are many things a Z can do to win but T just has so many hard counters to everything and while the Z is doing something crafty the T just turns around and stomps through their base with ease.
At this point Terran is just ridiculous. The T fanboi's best and only real viable argument is that fungal growth rapes their armies is maybe the only actual balanced thing in the fight. This is even easily countered when their MMM army simply backs up behind or closer to their siege tanks that continue to rape the Z army which is what happens almost every time. Mixing muta's into the mix is just laffable here as they r annihilated by the 1 or 2 thor's mixed in or by the couple turrets at the mineral line. Anyway I could easily go on and on but overall T just gains and gains every patch as Z keeps getting more and more game changing nerfs.
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On July 14 2010 22:44 Duelist wrote:
"I used to play terran, 'cause if they don't fix it, i'm gonna switch over, because terran is just ridiculous right now." by Idra :>
WhiteRa already expressed his concern about critical mass of marauders + medivacs vs protoss.
No one would say TvP is P favored, yet some people say T is favored. I don't know how those that believe everything is balanced and bash on people for thinking things are not there yet, don't get suspicious reading these opinions. What more do they want? Mathematical proof that X race or XvY matchup is imbalanced? That's not going to happen. Imbalances aren't as obvious now as they were, so people can't ask "give me a very hard to beat strat" or for proofs. If someone would be able to prove something like this they should instead be using their great brain for predicting natural disasters or finding the Higgs Boson. The difference in imbalance should, presently, be less than 5-10% between races. At this time polls like this, and opinions of progamers, as well as statistics is what we have to look for.
I agree with what white-ra says here completely, in sc1 tank/vulture with 3-2/3 was the strongest army in the game, but protoss with good control and spell casting(stasis/storm) aswell as mine drags and good zealot cloning could annhilate this push really really easy sometimes.
In SC2 i feel theres no equal to it, a majority of my large battles late game end upw ith terran with half their army left even after ive got off like 4-5-6 storms on it. in sc1 it'd atleast be semi even.
Marauders just have so much fucking life and medivacs can healthem through storm its just ridiculous
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Zergys are less favored overall... ,
But the dynamic of the race is pretty different from every other race in the history of RTS so...
I don't think terran deserves such favoritism The bioball has it's inconvinients and the mech is soo imobil that the other races have great potential for new strats.
You have to distinguish what you are able to do, what you struggle with, and real imbalances.
As a new player at sc, i could say that any BO is imbalanced to me.
It is just that i haven't found the right macro and micro to counter the opponent yet. That should be the state of mind.
Also, Terran is easier for new players with their need to turtle in order to buy time. Simcity is easier... So between bronzy-silver players, of course Terran is favored.
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On July 15 2010 00:13 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 23:55 Lucius2 wrote:Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/
and Mutas can't stand a front fight. even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically. While this is very true, I deliberately didn't mention how a tech-switch plays into things. They can show mass ling, or even a Roach Warren with no plans for Roaches, forcing the P's hand into a ground army. Save up some gas, pop 10 Mutas at once, and Protoss will never catch up. If you protect those Mutas and just keep adding numbers, Protoss becomes bound to his base and slowly loses. Being caught off-guard by Mutas as a Protoss pretty much seals your fate. Even if you see the Spire, it's not like you can Cannon up and move your anti-air units out of your base. Unless your strategy involved opening Stargate and getting a Phoenix fleet started, you will be hard-pressed to stop a dedicated Mutalisk attack.
Protoss got their flying cloaked detector which should ensure them with good scouting and they should be able to see when a Zerg starts its Lair or Spire and know that Mutalisks are on its way at least 133 in game seconds before the first Mutalisks pop.
Zerg can't scout their opponents base as easily and often get surprised when their Protoss opponent sends his 3-4 Void-Rays or 5-6 Phoenixes.
I don't think Zergs ability to surprise their opponent is superior at all. Zergs can't tech switch as fast as some people seems to believe. They can't tech into everything and build every unit building untill the later stages of the game and by then both Protoss and Terran have built a million of production buildings and can switch units quite fast aswell.
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Bronze, silver Z has disadvantage only, huh? I just watched 2 Z streamers for about 3 hours last night and they were rank #1 and 3 diamond, literally lost 80+% or so vs Terran. The only time they actually won was when they got lucky and rushed when the T weren't preparing for it. Every time the game went past the first 8 minutes or so the game always ended in a couple different ways which always involved the upgraded Z army melting to some crazy MMMT or siegeMMM balls.
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Even if they don't fix tank overkilling (which they likely won't since every unit in the game doesn't overkill when autoattacking), why don't they change tank damage type a bit? There's no reason that tanks have to kill marines or zergling in 1 shot or zealots in 2-3. Can't they change damage for tanks to like 25 + 25 to armored kinda like BW? Zergling/marines will still get 2 shotted, but at least if you want to deal with them you need to get hellion support instead of JUST mass tanks + a few thors, maybe vikings.
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On July 15 2010 00:34 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 00:13 yarkO wrote:On July 14 2010 23:55 Lucius2 wrote:Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/
and Mutas can't stand a front fight. even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically. While this is very true, I deliberately didn't mention how a tech-switch plays into things. They can show mass ling, or even a Roach Warren with no plans for Roaches, forcing the P's hand into a ground army. Save up some gas, pop 10 Mutas at once, and Protoss will never catch up. If you protect those Mutas and just keep adding numbers, Protoss becomes bound to his base and slowly loses. Being caught off-guard by Mutas as a Protoss pretty much seals your fate. Even if you see the Spire, it's not like you can Cannon up and move your anti-air units out of your base. Unless your strategy involved opening Stargate and getting a Phoenix fleet started, you will be hard-pressed to stop a dedicated Mutalisk attack. Protoss got their flying cloaked detector which should ensure them with good scouting and they should be able to see when a Zerg starts its Lair or Spire and know that Mutalisks are on its way at least 133 in game seconds before the first Mutalisks pop. Zerg can't scout their opponents base as easily and often get surprised when their Protoss opponent sends his 3-4 Void-Rays or 5-6 Phoenixes. I don't think Zergs ability to surprise their opponent is superior at all. Zergs can't tech switch as fast as some people seems to believe. They can't tech into everything and build every unit building untill the later stages of the game and by then both Protoss and Terran have built a million of production buildings and can switch units quite fast aswell.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????
Do you even read the post? Or read what you are saying? If a Protoss has a Robotics, and Obs out and in the Z base, it's pretty safe to assume that Z has a Lair finished and a Spire done or on the way (if they do intend to go Mutalisks). The more realistic scenario, or should I say the one I face most often, is my Obs gets to their base in time to see Mutas flying towards mine.
If I scout their Spire as it's starting, that doesn't even guarantee my safety vs Mutas. I can't match the production capability with 1 Stargate, and Protoss ground vs air is abysmal at best. And you sure aren't going to have Blink upgraded Stalkers, Phoenixes and Observers to guard all your fronts if they go for any fast Muta build.
Like I said, unless you pre-planned a Stargate build, Mutas are a real threat if they decide to just mass them. Outside of this, ZvP is a very equal match-up.
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On July 15 2010 00:48 teamsolid wrote:
Can't they change damage for tanks to like 25 + 25 to armored kinda like BW? Zergling/marines will still get 2 shotted, but at least if you want to deal with them you need to get hellion support instead of JUST mass tanks + a few thors, maybe vikings.
Like your idea, maybe not 50/50 but I think it could balance things up if Blizz wants the "no overkill auto-micro" in the game.
Anyway there's been so many thoughts about tanks, it's even been discussed on a state of the game episode, I don't know if Blizz will change something about them.
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On July 14 2010 23:53 MiyaviTeddy wrote:
ZvT: Terran can just totally turtle the shit out of zerg, be extra paranoid and get mech and move out and BAM, zerg is done
Oh and a bunch of marines and marauders KILL roaches and lings together.
thats just true if the Zerg player has really really bad macro.
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No Melt ur wrong lol. Terran turtles quite often and can do tons of damage with just 1 expo. Remember there's only 200 food available and on small maps T can do this extremely effectively.
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My opinion :
ZvT : I'd say it begins to be a little balanced, but a little, even though I still think T is largely favored. Mech is still a great counter to,like, all (?) compos the zerg's able to launch, and in that, it is a problem. It's not about massing tanks, it's about having enough to annihilate roach/hydra, being able to harass with Hellions, and massing a critical bio mass.
PvT : T is favored. If T goes biomass + medivac, it's still a little annoying, even with Chargelots/Sentries/HT. T dictates the flow of the game, even a cheesy VR / 4 gates push's still hard.
ZvP : Fairly balanced. Yeah. When it's not T or mirror (obviously), I think it is balanced.
And I think I'm smart enough to understand what's wrong right now with balance.
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Of course bad players will say T is favored. T is always favored when you run straight into a tank line.
At higher levels:
ZvT - Heavy Z favor
ZvP - Z favor
PvT - fairly even
Luckily it seems that so far Bliz is balancing mostly for high level of play.
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This is just my opinion so dont flame.
It seems like Zerg is the weakest race now, in TvZ, tanks own Z pretty much, in TvP, colossus is a bit hard for them to deal with couse they cant get Hive in time and realy, corupters are not the answer couse even if they have them they gonna be steamrolled anyways. One example> i defeat diamond 140 apm Diam.player and i had like arnd 70 (im rusty!), he had a bigger army and mostly controled the map but 2 colossi changed everything in my favour. In TvP is fairly balanced exept for the EMP wich demolishes Protoss army and is not really fair (50 gas for ghost academy, u get the spell for free, deals 100 instant dmg, long cast radius, huge aoe, drains also all energy from spellcasters, decloaks units) i mean cmon.. its not even funny.
So to sum it up in current state game in my opinion is not balanced at all.
T>P>Z
Protoss and Terran player.
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EPT
