|
On July 15 2010 00:49 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 00:34 Batch wrote:On July 15 2010 00:13 yarkO wrote:On July 14 2010 23:55 Lucius2 wrote:Somes Phéonix well microed > Any number of Muta u know :/
and Mutas can't stand a front fight. even if u have a decent amount of phoenixes and keep his muta count low: guess what: screw the mutas, get hydras only and all your phonixes are useless basically. While this is very true, I deliberately didn't mention how a tech-switch plays into things. They can show mass ling, or even a Roach Warren with no plans for Roaches, forcing the P's hand into a ground army. Save up some gas, pop 10 Mutas at once, and Protoss will never catch up. If you protect those Mutas and just keep adding numbers, Protoss becomes bound to his base and slowly loses. Being caught off-guard by Mutas as a Protoss pretty much seals your fate. Even if you see the Spire, it's not like you can Cannon up and move your anti-air units out of your base. Unless your strategy involved opening Stargate and getting a Phoenix fleet started, you will be hard-pressed to stop a dedicated Mutalisk attack. Protoss got their flying cloaked detector which should ensure them with good scouting and they should be able to see when a Zerg starts its Lair or Spire and know that Mutalisks are on its way at least 133 in game seconds before the first Mutalisks pop. Zerg can't scout their opponents base as easily and often get surprised when their Protoss opponent sends his 3-4 Void-Rays or 5-6 Phoenixes. I don't think Zergs ability to surprise their opponent is superior at all. Zergs can't tech switch as fast as some people seems to believe. They can't tech into everything and build every unit building untill the later stages of the game and by then both Protoss and Terran have built a million of production buildings and can switch units quite fast aswell. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Do you even read the post? Or read what you are saying? If a Protoss has a Robotics, and Obs out and in the Z base, it's pretty safe to assume that Z has a Lair finished and a Spire done or on the way (if they do intend to go Mutalisks). The more realistic scenario, or should I say the one I face most often, is my Obs gets to their base in time to see Mutas flying towards mine. If I scout their Spire as it's starting, that doesn't even guarantee my safety vs Mutas. I can't match the production capability with 1 Stargate, and Protoss ground vs air is abysmal at best. And you sure aren't going to have Blink upgraded Stalkers, Phoenixes and Observers to guard all your fronts if they go for any fast Muta build. Like I said, unless you pre-planned a Stargate build, Mutas are a real threat if they decide to just mass them. Outside of this, ZvP is a very equal match-up.
If Zerg rushes to get a Spire then you should be able to see this early since he will lack other units. Mutas also cost a ton of gas and if the Zerg uses all his gas to produce Mutas then he will be able produce one Mutalisk per base with fully saturated geysers every 25 seconds. You can easily build cannons and Stalkers to keep up with the Mutalisk attack while saving up gas to counter push a Zerg with no gas to build other units than Queens and Zerglings.
Unless I (when playing Zerg) pre-plan air defence then an air attack from Protoss will be equally hard to handle.
|
Suddenly being attacked by air from any race sucks when you aren't prepared. 
|
PvT is fairly balanced once both protoss and terran are able to unlock all of their techs. The problem is that the terran early game is better than the protoss early game. Ghost/bio with stim >>> gateway units.
|
As a zerg player I can't understand why everyone is whining about the race, in my opinion all races are equally strong. Most players whine about certain scenaros for example mech push, which is very easy to kill by simply massing lng/roaches and creeps tumors. In the later stages of the game you can add ultras/infestors etc. I don't agree with everyone saying that zerg are the weakest race.
|
I really wounder why everyone whines about TvZ. I play random atm but TvZ is my favorite matchup with both races in phase 2 thus far because now Z can do even better harras with infestor.(Spawning infested terrans burrowd is so n1 against tanks or just in his mineral line with a FG and every worker gets one or twoshoted depends on the upgrades)
Anyways as long as you don´t go things like hydra roach against mech you really shouldn´t autoloose this matchup.
|
On July 14 2010 16:01 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 15:05 Sadistx wrote:On July 14 2010 14:11 IdrA wrote:On July 14 2010 13:20 Sadistx wrote:On July 14 2010 11:15 IdrA wrote:On July 14 2010 10:58 iEchoic wrote:On July 14 2010 10:50 Logo wrote:
Blizzard has even come out and said that you're not likely to notice balance issues because the matchmaking is so good. If your race is underpowered (in any match-up) you'll sink a bit in ratings and face worse opponents. Just counted 34 Terran out of 100 in my diamond league. 4 of the top 10 in my league are in diamond. This is the most heavily Terran-skewed league I've found. Going down my friends list (number of Terrans in top 10, diamond leagues): 1/10 3/10 1/10 Have screenshots if anyone doubts these numbers. Anyone have leagues where T is incredibly over-represented? Because I can't find any, asked some friends to look too and they can't find it. Even if idrA is right about there being no god-like T players at the moment, I don't see why that would make Terran universally either under-represented or normally-represented throughout the diamond leagues. Even if a couple Testers or Sens played T, this wouldn't change the diamond distribution. There's no way that given this many players, only bad players play T, that's a completely stupid conclusion. There's no way, just statistically, that's possible (outside of the pro scene). If T is overpowered, why aren't they over-represented in the top of the diamond leagues? i think terran won more starleagues than any other race, but amongst foreigners for the last 2 years of starcraft the 2nd best terran was like.. strelok? sc2 terran is not an easy race to play, but it is a very powerful race when used well. so ya, its not overpowered in diamond or platinum or w/e. but, as i said, i was talking about at the highest level. at that level there is most definitely a massive base skill difference between a big chunk of the top zerg players+tester and everyone else. unfortunately theres not really gonna be any way to convince people of this till upmagic switches over and wins literally every tournament, but were the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate. Well as long as you're hypothesizing shit like "the entire sc1 pro scene to switch over right now and practice for 2 months terran would have an 80% win rate.", let me counter-hypothesize that they wont and we can leave the fairy-land arguments for people coming from wow mkay? actually its just an emphasis of the fact that theres no top level rts players playing terran and only a couple playing protoss, and win rates and tournament wins are still pretty balanced racially. if anything its been tilting away from zerg. You can't really say "its been tilting away from zerg", what is your sample size in tournaments that happened in phase 2, like 3 tournaments? If it's been tilting from Z, who are the top terrans that entered the scene that are making it this way? You also cant look at different patches and just lump all tournament wins of all time together. It has to be a lot of games on 1 patch, and there simply haven't been enough tournaments yet after T nerfs to confirm that TvZ is still somehow imbalanced in favor of T. since the patch that fixed tank splash, and especially since the 2 supply roach, terrans have definitely been winning more and more tournaments. all of the smaller foreign stuff like zotac, esl, craftcup, gosucoaching, as well as maka and loner or hannibal taking an aiur master's thing, maka winning the big gom invitational. and, once again, you're completely ignoring the point that almost all of the top players were established players in starcraft and a rare few from other games. there are tons of accomplished players playing zerg, then you have tester playing protoss, and the best terran in the world was a war3 amateur who never really did much.
I can't say I watched or even knew about all the tourneys you mentioned but the map pool was the maps from beta? It's 7 maps 4 of which are crap and you can't even judge the balance of a game this complex from less than a year of games (not to mention game-changing patches) much less from the results of a bunch of crappy Blizz maps.
|
On July 15 2010 01:17 Maggeus wrote:
My opinion :
ZvT : I'd say it begins to be a little balanced, but a little, even though I still think T is largely favored. Mech is still a great counter to,like, all (?) compos the zerg's able to launch, and in that, it is a problem. It's not about massing tanks, it's about having enough to annihilate roach/hydra, being able to harass with Hellions, and massing a critical bio mass.
PvT : T is favored. If T goes biomass + medivac, it's still a little annoying, even with Chargelots/Sentries/HT. T dictates the flow of the game, even a cheesy VR / 4 gates push's still hard.
ZvP : Fairly balanced. Yeah. When it's not T or mirror (obviously), I think it is balanced.
And I think I'm smart enough to understand what's wrong right now with balance.
Mech potentially yes but ultras are very strong against mech, and bio is shut down by lolfungalgrowth and i mean completely shut down to the point where it isnt even possible to use against a nonretarded zerg
PvT: yeah id agree T Favored 100% Storm does nothing if youre lucky enough to get 1 off against stupid EMP which did i mention you cant dodge?
ZvP: id put this in P's corner since late game with colossus stalker zerg atleast when i play has trouble dealing with this
|
I love how everyone always talks about 'zerg mobility' as some huge advantange.. as if we're still playing SC1.
Go play a few games as zerg. Mobility basically encompasses speedlings and that's it. Everything else is slow off creep and any halfway decent opponent isn't going to let you creep the entire map. Doesn't help that well over half the current map pool is a mass of high/low ground with cliffs everywhere and terrain built to funnel units into chokepoints.
Z 'mobility' in this beta with the current maps is a joke.
|
PvT: yeah id agree T Favored 100% Storm does nothing if youre lucky enough to get 1 off against stupid EMP which did i mention you cant dodge?
EMP is sooo retarded. Its so Op for the reasons milion times stated before and i cant believe they didnt do anything about it. EMP is the worst part in the game atm.
|
On July 15 2010 01:56 Acidlineup wrote:Show nested quote +PvT: yeah id agree T Favored 100% Storm does nothing if youre lucky enough to get 1 off against stupid EMP which did i mention you cant dodge?
EMP is sooo retarded. Its so Op for the reasons milion times stated before and i cant believe they didnt do anything about it. EMP is the worst part in the game atm.
I think EMP would be fine if they reverted spells back to being dodgeable. No idea why they changed them. Same goes for fungal
|
as a toss player,
pvz is really fun, id say its fairly balanced until Z gets broodlord/corrupter since toss AA sucks..
but pretty happy with pvz
pvt is ridiculous, marauders are so strong and will kill any tier 1 army with EASE
their upgrade is SO fucking cheap and only requires a tech lab.. wtf..
marauders have so much health, ranged, can be healed, can SLOW and kite easily, STIMMM
all for such a low price - who cares if they dont attack air? they completely destroy every ground unit..
Now, we see toss needs twilight and 200/200 YES 200/200 for charge, to make them just get a COUPLE hits on the marauders.. and also takes ages to upgrade. Remember, this also requires a cybernetics core + twilight council so add the costs of that..
EMP is too hard to dodge, and doesnt require an upgrade. Serious? Kill off 25% of the toss army's HP and remove energy to render casters useless.. At least make EMP an upgrade.. At least make it dodgable.
Tank=No overkill
Toss really needs proper anti air, zerg/terran have corrupter/viking which do decent amount of damage and don't need to micro them against colossus during a big fight,
where we need to use stalkers, blink into an area to shoot down the broodlords, not even kill it and just die off to hydras and get stuck by broodlings
Also HT takes forever to tech to.. DT tech is pretty crappy but we can survive with that
Carrier + mothership = lol
Terran is easily the strongest race right now, it's just not many pros are playing terran....
(read idras post for confirmation)
They have the most harass options and hard counters - Although I DO think they're the hardest to play but like i said above if a pro was playing terran they would be winning all the tournies
ps. marauders are op i hate them they kill all ground units (ffs why is concussive shells so cheap wtf)
|
It's FAR too early to say anything. I think that once the game has been out we can make assumptions like this, but for all we know it may be something crazy like corruptor infestor to beat mech and so on. AND there's two more expansions coming.
|
On July 14 2010 03:23 Sadistx wrote:
Just like the previous poll showed, the general public has no idea wtf it's talking about.
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
TvP is T favored.
ZvP is Z favored again.
Couldn't agree more with this. The only one that may be debatable is T v Z being zerg favored in my opinion, but the rest seems right.
|
On July 15 2010 00:19 Duelist wrote:
If blizzard is balancing the game for newbies, at higher level it will be next to impossible to have it balanced, and what will happen is that the hardest races will be the best at top level.
A analogy. If we give an F1 car to a newbie and put another driving a road car, they probably arrive at the end at the same time simply because the F1 is so hard to control, he will spin and won't take full advantage of its power. Same for instance with zerg. That's why in Korea it seems everyone is asking for zerg nerfs, because unlike in US and EU, they are able there to take it to its full power, and reveal how strong of a race it is. Zerg should lose on big armies fight because their strength is not there. However, what a lot of newbies do is big armies fight, unfortunately zerg gets buffed so it stands a chance on those fights, unbalancing the matchup, making zerg and terran F1's hard to control, and protoss a road car. They might be equally fast at lower levels, but at top, it's much different.
Please!! show me posts made by TOP KOREAN players stating that they want zerg to be nerfed. So far the only thing I can find while googling is top korean zerg player saying that zerg sucks! Hell even in interviews that Artosis is doing most pro players are stating that zerg is the underdog. In the interview with tester, even tester admited that terran will be OP once more pro gamers switch to SC2... and I could list countless interviews/post stating the same thing.
So I would like you to find a couple posts made by TOP PLAYERS, since you say that TOP PLAYERS =/= NEWBIES saying that zerg needs a nerf and also that KOREAN in general would like the zergs to be nerfed.
Also, in several interviews, namely Day[9] it was stated that TOP players from all realms are currently pretty equal and from what I've seen, there is alot of concerns by TOP zerg players regarding ZvZ and ZvT even after the small tank nerf.
thanks for backing up what you say please!
|
On July 15 2010 03:03 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 00:19 Duelist wrote:
If blizzard is balancing the game for newbies, at higher level it will be next to impossible to have it balanced, and what will happen is that the hardest races will be the best at top level.
A analogy. If we give an F1 car to a newbie and put another driving a road car, they probably arrive at the end at the same time simply because the F1 is so hard to control, he will spin and won't take full advantage of its power. Same for instance with zerg. That's why in Korea it seems everyone is asking for zerg nerfs, because unlike in US and EU, they are able there to take it to its full power, and reveal how strong of a race it is. Zerg should lose on big armies fight because their strength is not there. However, what a lot of newbies do is big armies fight, unfortunately zerg gets buffed so it stands a chance on those fights, unbalancing the matchup, making zerg and terran F1's hard to control, and protoss a road car. They might be equally fast at lower levels, but at top, it's much different. Please!! show me posts made by TOP KOREAN players stating that they want zerg to be nerfed. So far the only thing I can find while googling is top korean zerg player saying that zerg sucks! Hell even in interviews that Artosis is doing most pro players are stating that zerg is the underdog. In the interview with tester, even tester admited that terran will be OP once more pro gamers switch to SC2... and I could list countless interviews/post stating the same thing. So I would like you to find a couple posts made by TOP PLAYERS, since you say that TOP PLAYERS =/= NEWBIES saying that zerg needs a nerf and also that KOREAN in general would like the zergs to be nerfed. Also, in several interviews, namely Day[9] it was stated that TOP players from all realms are currently pretty equal and from what I've seen, there is alot of concerns by TOP zerg players regarding ZvZ and ZvT even after the small tank nerf. thanks for backing up what you say please!
He's referring to some comments made by Blizzard in a developer chat where they said one of the issues with balancing is that in US/EU, Zerg is weaker, compared to Asia, where Zerg is stronger. Someone might dig up the actual chat and prove me wrong but I am pretty sure this was based on statistical analysis of winrates, not comments from top players. Which method is better, statistics or player perspectives, is debatable, and I think each comes with its own set of troubling hidden variables.
|
I say it again. This Blizzard comment was based on stats months ago which really mean nothing in todays game. I have no idea why people are bringing that up or in fact the Tester interview.
|
On July 15 2010 03:19 Numy wrote:
I say it again. This Blizzard comment was based on stats months ago which really mean nothing in todays game. I have no idea why people are bringing that up or in fact the Tester interview.
This. The comments were from before a majority of people were in beta. Most current beta players got in when they started offering the beta key with preorders (myself included) and the comments were made before that.
|
On July 15 2010 03:09 fatduck wrote:
He's referring to some comments made by Blizzard in a developer chat where they said one of the issues with balancing is that in US/EU, Zerg is weaker, compared to Asia, where Zerg is stronger. Someone might dig up the actual chat and prove me wrong but I am pretty sure this was based on statistical analysis of winrates, not comments from top players. Which method is better, statistics or player perspectives, is debatable, and I think each comes with its own set of troubling hidden variables.
Yes, maybe you're right and he's referring to the developper chat. But if they're saying that Zerg's win rate is higher.... maybe it's cause :
On July 14 2010 10:46 IdrA wrote:
look at the difference between tester and every other protoss player
then realize no one near tester's caliber plays terran
then consider that 90% of the top tier rts players playing sc2 right now chose zerg
if the game were balanced zerg would be winning 70%+ at high levels.
If there is a large amount of players playing 1 race. It is also NORMAL that a race gets an overall higher win rate no?
Lets take 100 top gamers
60 are playing Zerg
15 are playing Protoss
20 are playing Terran
5 are playing Random
If each player win 1 and lose 1 we can say that they win 50% of their games....
Zergs win rate will be 60%
Protoss win rate will be 15%
Terran win rate will be 20%
Random win rate will be 5%
but currently in most EU/US divisions (I have both accounts) most top 10 I'm look at right now looks like 4-5 terran, 4-5 protoss, 1-2 Zerg.
Hell in my US division right now. it's 5 terran, 3 protoss, 1 random and 1 zerg being me and the next zerg in the list rocks the #18 rank. I'm aware that not EVERY division looks like this... but still.... each time I win/lose vs any diamond player I look at his division and I find that it's really recurrent.
Hell if you look at one of the best division in US right now
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Zerg
2. Protoss
3. Zerg
4. Protoss
5. Protoss
6. Terran
7. Protoss
8. Terran
9. Terran
10. Terran
Zerg: 2
Protoss: 4
Terran: 4
and the highest win rate is strelok(terran) with ~80%
P.S. This division also need qxc and cauthonluck 
My division is:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Protoss
2. Protoss
3. Terran
4. Terran
5. Protoss
6. Terran
7. Terran
8. Zerg
9. Terran
10. Random
Zerg: 1
Protoss: 3
Terran: 5
Random: 1
Maybe I'm flipping, but everytime I see ZvT (and playing as Z) at the end of the game. Even if the terran was platinum... I can say that he gave me alot of trouble... and that is if I didn't lose and I'm using all type of mobility hack I can to win.
also I find it fun to see that there is about NO post from ZvP but tons and tons of TvP and TvZ... just saying
|
On July 15 2010 01:15 FlamingTurd wrote:
No Melt ur wrong lol. Terran turtles quite often and can do tons of damage with just 1 expo. Remember there's only 200 food available and on small maps T can do this extremely effectively.
Ok, i thought you meant 1 Base.
It's indeed really hard to fight a 2 Base turtling Terran on Maps such as steppes of war.
I just had such a game and i think that a Speedling Muta into baneling Strategy doesn't really stand a Chance against that.
I'm going to try a Roach Baneling 3 Base strategy with perhabs some Hydras and Infestors and later Ultras/Blords.
I find it quite hard to get up the much needed economy and still be able to defend against terrans numerous Harrass options.
I don't think that you can't win against such a Strategy, but it seems to be much harder to play against it, than to play it. If both players are of equal skill level, i think Terran will almost everytime end on top.
|
On July 15 2010 01:52 Azile wrote:
I love how everyone always talks about 'zerg mobility' as some huge advantange.. as if we're still playing SC1.
Go play a few games as zerg. Mobility basically encompasses speedlings and that's it. Everything else is slow off creep and any halfway decent opponent isn't going to let you creep the entire map. Doesn't help that well over half the current map pool is a mass of high/low ground with cliffs everywhere and terrain built to funnel units into chokepoints.
Z 'mobility' in this beta with the current maps is a joke.
Nydus worm. Also zerg is the fastest of all the races with creep. Fact.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g309/Tamerlane___/SC2/ArgoEcho.jpg)
