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Mech, to me just seems too *flexible*.
Tanks own ground.
Thors totally demolish light air and are strong against Ground (ridiculous when repaired).
Hellions utterly destroy the unit that actually would do good against Tanks/Thors (Masslinsgs) and can rape your ecoline in a few seconds.
Vikings own heavy Air and make harass extremly easy.
Add in Cliffdrops and it's like a trauma center for Zergs... You just hope that the Terrans unit composition has a hole or you catch him REALLY off guard.
Bio at least has obvious weakpoints... Rines die to Banelings, Marauders don't do great against Hydras and Lings, Broodlords totally destroy any Bio, Fungal Growth helps a ton, Roaches work decent as damage soakers, Mutas punish you for overcomitting to Marauders... It's still harder to play for Zerg, but nowhere near to the same extend as going against Metal.
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On July 14 2010 03:36 starcat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 03:23 Sadistx wrote:
TvZ is Z favored atm (tank nerfs, continuous ultra buffs, fungal growth = rofl)
i laughed. keep dreaming brah.
........ Zerg is obviously favored here, you must be sick
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I think it's hilarious to make poll's about stuff like that this early, just because it's not very accurate... ^^'
At first, Terran was the weakest race, Terran Mech seemed to be unplayable etc. then, a few changes later, it's suddenly heavily overpowered! xD
It's not all about the balance-changes or what appears to be a good strategy now, it just takes time to refine strategies and come up with solid BO's.
I would recommend everyone to stop carrying about this stuff that much and just try to come up with own BO's and ways to play.
For example: I've used Tanks in all the MU's from week1 of the beta, where they still seemed way too weak and it worked fine. I've not used a single Marauder in my ~200 most recent games as Terran and before I used them very seldom although they were totally imba and I managed to get wins nonetheless.
It's all about figuring out different ways to play the MU's and not about certain races, units, or MU's being imbalanced - at least not this early in the games lifespan.
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The solution to Terran mech is just to make mutalisk viable. You do this by making Thor range shorter and/or making it an upgrade. Terrans can still use marines and turrets, but this slows down the power of the mech by forcing terran to go bio.
Another major factor is the fact that zerg is supposed to counter tanks/thors with zerglings but the smart cast shot of sieged tanks never overkills making 1000s of lings just die like nothing. (not even mentioning hellions as support).
And lots of these maps are just totally imbalanced TvZ (Incineration Zone, Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine [especially veritcal/horizontal positions], and Desert Oasis) And even Steppes of War is difficult because of the short distance.
Another thing about Terrans is that they wall in, It's really difficult to read their build even if you sac a lord or lings and see a techlab on a factory with a starport behind, it's just so easy for them to switch on the fly they can literally do anything.
They could make a few hellions and a medivac, they could be making a thor/viking/medivac, they could hiding rax and making a seige tank bio push. They could even switch it up and make a banshee and hellions.
Since zerg needs to have lair in order to deal with any of the air/cliff threats that weakens them severely in the early game especially if they need to make roaches/spines to defend the hellions.
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How are mutalisks NOT viable against Terran? Forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control is not viable? Most top zergs use Mutas very effectively against Terran.
I'd argue that hydras have been overnerfed.
The counter to Tanks/Thors mid-game is roaches/mutas and the abuse of immobility. The counter to Tanks/Thors late-game is BLs or Ultra/Ling.
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On July 15 2010 18:14 link0 wrote:
How are mutalisks NOT viable against Terran? Forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control is not viable? Most top zergs use Mutas very effectively against Terran.
Thor's range and splash is so powerful that the main issue is that if you do one mistake with your muta they will all die and then you on the back foot. Along with the fact that he doesn't need to have map control to secure his nat then turtle till he has a ball capable of dealing with a bigger zerg army.
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I can't answer all of those poll. I need a "i'm not sure" answer. :p
In fact, i'm stunned as a Gold player how many of you guys can be so sure of what is balanced or not. Maybe all of you are in top diamond division, but even then, when i watch my looses it's always that my opponent was better ( in macro, in micro, harrass or whatever ), and even when i watch some great player, or listen to Day 9, Gretorp & co it always appears quite balance to me.
If i have to vote for an imbalance thought, i'll probably choose TvZ, where mec' seems very efficient.
But still, i think that players in general have some terrible habits, as we have already look at all possibilities and know everything about that game which is not even released yet. Specially zerg where we just start to see some use of drop, queens and tumor just recently. Maybe it's because of the mechanics, so different than the two other than it takes more time to discover the "advanced play", don't know.
( hope my english's not so bad )
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On July 15 2010 20:42 Super_bricklayer wrote:
I can't answer all of those poll. I need a "i'm not sure" answer. :p
In fact, i'm stunned as a Gold player how many of you guys can be so sure of what is balanced or not. Maybe all of you are in top diamond division, but even then, when i watch my looses it's always that my opponent was better ( in macro, in micro, harrass or whatever ), and even when i watch some great player, or listen to Day 9, Gretorp & co it always appears quite balance to me.
If i have to vote for an imbalance thought, i'll probably choose TvZ, where mec' seems very efficient.
But still, i think that players in general have some terrible habits, as we have already look at all possibilities and know everything about that game which is not even released yet. Specially zerg where we just start to see some use of drop, queens and tumor just recently. Maybe it's because of the mechanics, so different than the two other than it takes more time to discover the "advanced play", don't know.
( hope my english's not so bad )
haha man I like your attitude . I also agree that whenever I lose, I think, my opponent did better than me or I messed up, or luck, but not, OMG IMBALANCE!!
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My opinion this is that Mech would be fine vs Zerg if Thors didn't splash air. If they either removed the splash completely and instead raised Thors air damage or made it bounce (like the Muta-shots) 2-4 times then mass Mutalisks would be much more viable as a counter to mech. Another solution would be to let Corruptors be able to hit Thors (like how they can attack Colossus).
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On July 15 2010 20:50 superman. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 20:42 Super_bricklayer wrote:
I can't answer all of those poll. I need a "i'm not sure" answer. :p
In fact, i'm stunned as a Gold player how many of you guys can be so sure of what is balanced or not. Maybe all of you are in top diamond division, but even then, when i watch my looses it's always that my opponent was better ( in macro, in micro, harrass or whatever ), and even when i watch some great player, or listen to Day 9, Gretorp & co it always appears quite balance to me.
If i have to vote for an imbalance thought, i'll probably choose TvZ, where mec' seems very efficient.
But still, i think that players in general have some terrible habits, as we have already look at all possibilities and know everything about that game which is not even released yet. Specially zerg where we just start to see some use of drop, queens and tumor just recently. Maybe it's because of the mechanics, so different than the two other than it takes more time to discover the "advanced play", don't know.
( hope my english's not so bad ) haha man I like your attitude . I also agree that whenever I lose, I think, my opponent did better than me or I messed up, or luck, but not, OMG IMBALANCE!!
Did you also thought that when you played vs protoss (if you did) before all the nerfs? :> Sometimes the problem is indeed imbalance, i don't see a point pretending everything can be attributed to players' incompetence. It's pretty certain the game is not perfectly balanced, the question is just to figure out where.
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Sure there's balance to improve, and there will be for years. It's just i can't be so affirmative "TvP is imba" ; "this is the thor" or "this is EMP" etc...
It feels wrong, and i actually quite surprise also when we see the patch and stuff. For example when Bnet forum was all about "OMG void ray are OP", the nerf was just a little less shoot radius. I mean, for 80% of whiners, it doesn't change anything, void ray will still kill their lonely queen waiting for the lair to be complete. But people seems to calm down. For no reason really, that nerf was for really great player, and still white rah still using them so well that it feels exactly the same.
Just a personal issue here that i have with the poll, and some comments. Well, not an issue but just a feel, not a big deal. ^^
Edit : And yes, even before a lot of patch, all my looses was because my opponent was better or i didn't scout well and get screwed up by lame cheese or stuff like that. ( ofc there's exeption, like the larva bug, but it's a bug ).
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On July 15 2010 08:22 ta2 wrote:
TvZ - T massively favoured
TvP - T favoured
PvZ - P slightly favoured
TvZ - siege tanks + thors + MMM = invincibility
TvP - siege tanks + MMM = 90% win
PvZ - very close to fair but maybe larvae should spawn a tiny bit faster. Z is always on the edge of losing to a gateway push.
In PvZ also I think it's a bit unfair how if P goes collossi then Z is forced to respond by making corruptors, there is no other way to win, therefore P is dictating play. On the other hand P typically gets wasted when Z responds with enough corruptors.
Terran simply needs nerf. Why do they have like 5 more units than Z and 2 more units than P?
So all terran has to do is get every unit in it's arsenal and then auto win? That makes tons of sense.
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On July 15 2010 17:36 CharlieMurphy wrote:
The solution to Terran mech is just to make mutalisk viable. You do this by making Thor range shorter and/or making it an upgrade. Terrans can still use marines and turrets, but this slows down the power of the mech by forcing terran to go bio.
Another major factor is the fact that zerg is supposed to counter tanks/thors with zerglings but the smart cast shot of sieged tanks never overkills making 1000s of lings just die like nothing. (not even mentioning hellions as support).
And lots of these maps are just totally imbalanced TvZ (Incineration Zone, Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine [especially veritcal/horizontal positions], and Desert Oasis) And even Steppes of War is difficult because of the short distance.
Another thing about Terrans is that they wall in, It's really difficult to read their build even if you sac a lord or lings and see a techlab on a factory with a starport behind, it's just so easy for them to switch on the fly they can literally do anything.
They could make a few hellions and a medivac, they could be making a thor/viking/medivac, they could hiding rax and making a seige tank bio push. They could even switch it up and make a banshee and hellions.
Since zerg needs to have lair in order to deal with any of the air/cliff threats that weakens them severely in the early game especially if they need to make roaches/spines to defend the hellions.
That seems like a neat idea. You could even roll 250mm and range into one "Heavy Weapons" upgrade.
The thing about the Thor is that it's really become a primarily TvZ unit from my understanding. It's not really clear to me why/when you'd use it TvP or TvT other than drops. I suppose TvT it can absorb tank fire or support vikings, but of course any change is symmetrical in TvT. Is that accurate that Thor is primarily for TvZ right now? If so it does seem like a good possibility for taking the brunt of any TvZ changes.
Though it would suck if TvZ was transition to muta or die like ZvZ.
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On July 15 2010 17:36 CharlieMurphy wrote:
The solution to Terran mech is just to make mutalisk viable. You do this by making Thor range shorter and/or making it an upgrade. Terrans can still use marines and turrets, but this slows down the power of the mech by forcing terran to go bio.
Another major factor is the fact that zerg is supposed to counter tanks/thors with zerglings but the smart cast shot of sieged tanks never overkills making 1000s of lings just die like nothing. (not even mentioning hellions as support).
And lots of these maps are just totally imbalanced TvZ (Incineration Zone, Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine [especially veritcal/horizontal positions], and Desert Oasis) And even Steppes of War is difficult because of the short distance.
Another thing about Terrans is that they wall in, It's really difficult to read their build even if you sac a lord or lings and see a techlab on a factory with a starport behind, it's just so easy for them to switch on the fly they can literally do anything.
They could make a few hellions and a medivac, they could be making a thor/viking/medivac, they could hiding rax and making a seige tank bio push. They could even switch it up and make a banshee and hellions.
Since zerg needs to have lair in order to deal with any of the air/cliff threats that weakens them severely in the early game especially if they need to make roaches/spines to defend the hellions.
Do you honestly feel that a terran who goes bio has any chance at all of winning against a good zerg player? lolfungalgrowth is too powerful in TvZ to go bio.
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On July 15 2010 18:14 link0 wrote:
How are mutalisks NOT viable against Terran? Forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control is not viable? Most top zergs use Mutas very effectively against Terran.
I'd argue that hydras have been overnerfed.
The counter to Tanks/Thors mid-game is roaches/mutas and the abuse of immobility. The counter to Tanks/Thors late-game is BLs or Ultra/Ling.
The problem is not countering Tanks/Thors late-game, but countering Tanks/Thors midgame lol. Anyway, "forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control" is all well and good, until you've sunk 100 minerals and, most importantly, 100 gas EACH into a unit that is completely and utterly useless in a straight up fight once Thors hit, and completely and utterly useless altogether once he has reacted and anti-aired his base up properly. Then, with any significant amount of money dumped into Mutas, T's army will be significantly larger than Z's, allowing for a devastating push that Z has really no answer to.
Plus, pure mech is not the only thing tipping the balance in TvZ. Mech/Bio is ridiculously flexible from start to finish in that game. Try attacking a Tank/M/M ball with any combination of standard Zerg ground units. I'm not talking hive here, and usually not even a significant amount of lair units.
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You should add mirror matches, heh. I think TvT is imba.
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On July 15 2010 23:26 LF9 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 18:14 link0 wrote:
How are mutalisks NOT viable against Terran? Forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control is not viable? Most top zergs use Mutas very effectively against Terran.
I'd argue that hydras have been overnerfed.
The counter to Tanks/Thors mid-game is roaches/mutas and the abuse of immobility. The counter to Tanks/Thors late-game is BLs or Ultra/Ling. The problem is not countering Tanks/Thors late-game, but countering Tanks/Thors midgame lol. Anyway, "forcing T to build 3 turrets per base while gaining complete map control" is all well and good, until you've sunk 100 minerals and, most importantly, 100 gas EACH into a unit that is completely and utterly useless in a straight up fight once Thors hit, and completely and utterly useless altogether once he has reacted and anti-aired his base up properly. Then, with any significant amount of money dumped into Mutas, T's army will be significantly larger than Z's, allowing for a devastating push that Z has really no answer to. Plus, pure mech is not the only thing tipping the balance in TvZ. Mech/Bio is ridiculously flexible from start to finish in that game. Try attacking a Tank/M/M ball with any combination of standard Zerg ground units. I'm not talking hive here, and usually not even a significant amount of lair units.
Yeah this is where a lot of the problem comes in to me. In my opinion where Zerg loses its momentum vs Terran is in that mid game. By time you have lair tech with overlord drops or burrow move roaches in a safe build the Terran has already 'settled' a good deal.
That's why I think Zerg should have some of its research times reduced like Overlord Drop (130s currently) or tunneling claws (110s). It seems silly that these 2nd upgrades take so long to research given that overlord drop is effectively a 300/300 investment as it's useless without overlord speed and tunneling claws is 250/250 since it's useless without burrow.
Yes the base upgrades are useful without tunneling claws or sacs, but if your goal is "I want burrow move roaches" then that means a 250/250 investment plain and simple.
By comparison when an upgrade is deemed necessary for a Terran or Protoss unit (Conc shell, Siege mode, and Psi Storm) it's always available as a sub 100 research. Now I realize that say overlord dropping isn't necessary for a unit, but it's pretty clear that OL dropping and/or burrow move roaches has become necessary for the ZvT matchup.
To put it in a shorter form, I feel that the window where I can make good use of drops and burrow move to put pressure on a Terran opponent before they get a good mech mass and the window where I can safely have burrow move or overlord drops (and something to actually drop) do NOT overlap. So instead I have to try to drop at a time where Terran is already in a great position to defend it and hope I can exploit a mistake or buy time until another good window opens up during which Terran is free to dictate more of the game's flow.
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WoW actually some substantive posts on Mech (other than lol imba mech).
I think if smart Tanks were fixed, Mech would be fine. Because the way it is now, even zerglings can't really reach a tank line.
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What need to be added to this (and the billions of other race threads) is...
"What race do you currently play?"
Just by looking at the polls, I can already tell the majority of voters PROBABLY are zerg players...but that's just an educated guess...
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On July 16 2010 01:40 EliteAzn wrote:
What need to be added to this (and the billions of other race threads) is...
"What race do you currently play?"
Just by looking at the polls, I can already tell the majority of voters PROBABLY are zerg players...but that's just an educated guess...
Why would Zerg players be over representative? Is it more of the nature of Zerg players to vote in forum polls? If it is, which I don't believe it is, then why are Zerg players more likely to vote? Because Zerg players generaly are whiners?
I do beleive that some players do vote that their own race is the least favored but those votes evens up since (according to earlier polls) the prefered race distribution is quite even between the races.
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EPT
