|
On July 14 2010 04:49 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 04:46 Sadistx wrote:
I'm actually going to clarify what I meant when I said TvZ is Z favored.
If you go for an MMM build and don't pressure zerg's 2nd hatch, it becomes increasingly hard to deal with Z's units with just bio. After the ultra buffs and zergs getting much better with infestors, pure bio play becomes non-viable past mid-game.
The overwhelming amount of counters Z has to the MMM ball makes it very hard to go the equivalent of SKTerran in SC2. So you are essentially forced to go mech to deal with that. On higher levels MMM will just get rolled unless you go for a 17CC off 2 marines, which is very risky.
MMM supported by 2-3 tanks still kinda works, but it depends heavily on keeping tanks alive.
Terran mech is absolutely fine vs Z, it's MMM that's weak. I promise I don't mean to provoke anything, but do you think Terran really should be able to roll a Zerg player without ever pressuring his FE and using only tier 1/1.5 units? I don't really think that speaks to a racial imbalance; to me it sounds like that's the way it should be.
You have a point, but you have to realize lategame MMM is at least 2-2 upgraded and supported by medivacs and nighthawks, all of which are higher tier and require a lot of gas. Marauders are pretty much a direct counter to ultras and banelings, but even then ultra baneling/speedling just roll over bio.
Even then, without tanks and thors MMM is much weaker than SKTerran was in BW.
Early pressure can turn into you allining them, because if you try to pressure them on maps like metalopolis and misjudge whether they were getting ling speed, you lose your entire army off 1 base, which is pretty much autoloss.
|
On July 14 2010 03:46 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 03:33 silveryms wrote:On July 14 2010 03:25 Stane wrote:
I think people thinking terran is favored is largely due to no one being close to mastering this game, so they listen to the pros like IdrA who keep saying that terran is favored. That being said, if IdrA says that Zerg v Mech is impossible, something is wrong with the game. I have to disagree. I think people are smart enough to make their balance decisions for themselves. I expect most of these votes to be coming from personal experience. people were talking about imballances even before they had a chance to try out the game even b4 the beta started just based on some opinions of some dudes playing the alpha version at BlizzCon remember the 10-pool-queen imba discussions? a few other examples are : 2 rax marauders imba 2 proxy gates-zealots imba TL staff had to announce that any1 announcing some kind of imba strategy without proof will be banned About IdrA, old fans will remember him from saying similar crap in SC1: in TvP, DT drop is unbeatable Right now Flash sweeps the floor with any1 as a terran in SC1:BW Right now Sen sweeps the floor with any1 as a zerg in SC2:beta(even before the tank dmg nerf to 50) look at the facts, people, there is only skill it's the player who wins the game, not the race
Quoted for truth, a million times over. Let the actual gameplays evolve before everyone starts crying about "imbalance". This sounds like a world of warcraft forum.
|
On July 14 2010 03:25 Entropic wrote:
Man I sure do love OPINIONS threads.
You're reading a site like TL and expecting anything other than that? You make no sense. You want someone to come and definitively answer this question? It can't be done. Therefore, don your opinion hat and join in, or get out.
That said, I struggle ZvT as well. Tanks that don't overkill are so deadly. I remember when people were complaining that tanks weren't any good. I hope you people remember who you are 
|
On July 14 2010 03:46 MindRush wrote:
Right now Flash sweeps the floor with any1 as a terran in SC1:BW
Clearly you haven't been watching much SC1 the past month or two.
|
I was in Mid silver pre copper kill, and my friend was mid copper, I play toss he plays terran, It is very disturbing my measly 65% win percentage against him. Terran is a wee bit OP.
|
On July 14 2010 03:46 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 03:33 silveryms wrote:On July 14 2010 03:25 Stane wrote:
I think people thinking terran is favored is largely due to no one being close to mastering this game, so they listen to the pros like IdrA who keep saying that terran is favored. That being said, if IdrA says that Zerg v Mech is impossible, something is wrong with the game. I have to disagree. I think people are smart enough to make their balance decisions for themselves. I expect most of these votes to be coming from personal experience. people were talking about imballances even before they had a chance to try out the game even b4 the beta started just based on some opinions of some dudes playing the alpha version at BlizzCon remember the 10-pool-queen imba discussions? a few other examples are : 2 rax marauders imba 2 proxy gates-zealots imba TL staff had to announce that any1 announcing some kind of imba strategy without proof will be banned About IdrA, old fans will remember him from saying similar crap in SC1: in TvP, DT drop is unbeatable Right now Flash sweeps the floor with any1 as a terran in SC1:BW Right now Sen sweeps the floor with any1 as a zerg in SC2:beta(even before the tank dmg nerf to 50) look at the facts, people, there is only skill it's the player who wins the game, not the race
Quoted for truth, a million times over. Let the actual gameplays evolve before everyone starts crying about "imbalance". This sounds like a world of warcraft forum.
|
On July 14 2010 04:58 OneOther wrote:
T>>P
T>>Z
Z==P
lol what happened to Z>>P?
anyways, my thoughts (I play Z):
T>Z: Terran just has more flexibility and options in this matchup. Plus, it has "hard counter" units against every unit the Zerg has (hellion vs ling, thor vs muta, marauder vs roach, tank vs hydra).
Z>P: I think Zerg has more options in this matchup. 90% of the time, the game is decided by a single Protoss attack. If they pull it off, then they win. Otherwise, they lose. I would love to see more DT/warpgate absusage, though, since everyone seems so adamant about a colossus timing attack. Plus, if Zerg wins the gas war, there's no stopping a mass much tech switch.
T?P: No comment
|
I think it's interesting that the cross-race matchup people think is the most balanced, ZvP, is also the matchup people think is the most fun.
|
I think that terran vs zerg is currently terran favored, but only because people haven't realized how to play zerg correctly yet, and once they do the matchup will be basically impossible for terran, muta/ling/baneling is just so strong against everything except mech, once mech gets harder to do, the matchup will be impossible for terran.
|
On July 14 2010 03:42 Gnial wrote:
You don't realise how effective it is to force the MM ball to stim and then run away, until its been done to you.
Yes, run away from the blob of troops moving as fast as a bunch of Mutalisks.
|
On July 14 2010 05:15 silveryms wrote:
I think it's interesting that the cross-race matchup people think is the most balanced, ZvP, is also the matchup people think is the most fun.
It's interesting, and I do think it correlates, but it's not the main reason. I think the biggest reason ZvP is the most fun is the difference between the races. Zerg is many and weak. Protoss is few and strong.
It's like watching Zangief fight Chun-Li. It's just fun.
|
On July 14 2010 05:14 Saracen wrote:lol what happened to Z>>P? anyways, my thoughts (I play Z): T>Z: Terran just has more flexibility and options in this matchup. Plus, it has "hard counter" units against every unit the Zerg has (hellion vs ling, thor vs muta, marauder vs roach, tank vs hydra). Z>P: I think Zerg has more options in this matchup. 90% of the time, the game is decided by a single Protoss attack. If they pull it off, then they win. Otherwise, they lose. I would love to see more DT/warpgate absusage, though, since everyone seems so adamant about a colossus timing attack. Plus, if Zerg wins the gas war, there's no stopping a mass much tech switch. T?P: No comment
Very conveniently you take out broodlords, ultras and banelings from TvZ. No wonder that TvZ poll is so broken.
Hellions without upgrades don't even counter speedlings that well.
|
I'm glad everyone else loves ZvP. Even games that I lose are pretty fun.
All the mirror matchups are absolute garbage in terms of fun.
I do think Terran is slightly OP, but I also think thats its the hardest race to play at all but the highest skill levels. In my opinion, its because of unit production. Protoss has Warp-in, which is easy mode, Zerg has hatcheries, which have always bee easy mode as far as I'm concerned, and Terran has like a million different buildings once you consider reactor/ tech lab combinations. This skill imbalance needs to be toned down a bit in the future or Terran will always be worse at lower skill levels when higher skill levels are balanced. In this expansion, I imagine, that is made up for because of the singleplayer being Terran only. In the future, however, I consider this a problem that ought to be fixed.
|
On July 14 2010 05:25 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 05:14 Saracen wrote:On July 14 2010 04:58 OneOther wrote:
T>>P
T>>Z
Z==P lol what happened to Z>>P? anyways, my thoughts (I play Z): T>Z: Terran just has more flexibility and options in this matchup. Plus, it has "hard counter" units against every unit the Zerg has (hellion vs ling, thor vs muta, marauder vs roach, tank vs hydra). Z>P: I think Zerg has more options in this matchup. 90% of the time, the game is decided by a single Protoss attack. If they pull it off, then they win. Otherwise, they lose. I would love to see more DT/warpgate absusage, though, since everyone seems so adamant about a colossus timing attack. Plus, if Zerg wins the gas war, there's no stopping a mass much tech switch. T?P: No comment Very conveniently you take out broodlords, ultras and banelings from TvZ. No wonder that TvZ poll is so broken. Hellions without upgrades don't even counter speedlings that well.
Okay, Vikings >> Broodlords, and I haven't had much experience with Ultralisks except the one time I tech switched to Ultralisks in a won game, I lost against Marauders (mainly because they took so long to build and he attacked at a good timing). I agree that the Baneling doesn't have a hard counter. But seriously, I just listed pretty every unit in the Zerg arsenal. It's all counterable, and to a ridiculous degree. Like, no amount of Mutas is going to beat 5 3/3 Thors. A ball of like 18 Marauders can kill approximately infinity Roaches. Hellions with the igniter upgrade rape lings silly (yes, you HAVE to get the upgrade).
Plus, Broodlords and Ultras are tier 3, and "very conveniently" take a really long time to tech to (hive + ultra den/greater spire build time is flat-out ridiculous), leaving you with a fat, juicy timing window to crush your opponent...
And the fact that Terran units >> Zerg units was only half of my point about balance. I can sort of live with it, because the Zerg macro mechanic is so strong and easily abused. But you combine it with the fact that Terran just has more options, especially on maps like Kulas Ravine and Lost Temple, and I don't see how you can argue that Z > T. There are tons of viable timing attacks and pressure builds (marine/hellion, marine tank, marauder/hellion, etc.). On top of that, you have countless harass builds (thor drop, cloak banshee, banshee/viking, hellion drop, pre-igniter hellion, tank drop), some of which are nearly unstoppable on certain maps. As well as reaper openings, which again, on some maps, completely deny a Zerg fast expand. All of these things open up options for the Terran and take away options from the Zerg. THAT's why TvZ is imbalanced.
|
Z seems to be just very underpowered in many situations at the current state of the game.
|
For regional differences, Blizzard said recently (again) that people on the Asia server feel like Zerg is too powerful while NA/Europe servers feel Zerg is too weak. Zerg has continued to dominate the Asian scene in tournaments at least, deserved or not.
|
I think that TvP is Terran favored. There is no way for Protoss to counter that huge midgame MMM+Viking+(sometimes) tank ball. People just say "use storm", but templars are expensive and extremely high up the tech tree too. Unless i'm on four bases (which is extremely difficult when two dozen marauders can run up the ramp and snipe the nexus in seconds) i can never produce enough high templar to prevent them getting owned with EMP, and either way storm only ends up killing at most five or six units at once when I manage to get one off.
Collossi are promising but you need four or five built up or they will get steamrolled, and vikings completely nullify them before you can do much. I've played a lot of games at diamond level and i just can't seem to get the composition that lets P beat the T ball right yet i guess. Stalker heavy, plus zealots and sentries, gets owned by marauders, zeal heavy gets owned by slow+marines, sentry heavy just gets EMP'd, etc.
It's not that theres an "imbalance" here, it's just that playstyles have yet to evolve to the point where the terran can be confronted in the mid game. I ALWAYS get my wins in the early game either with some fast immortal/warpgate gayness, or rarely in long games where i simply out macro my opponent and steamroll him.
Either way it feels stupid that i should have to rely on my opponent being bad to get wins. I think that marauders need to be a bit more expensive and build a bit slower. Would fix a lot of things imo, because once there's a big ball of them there's nothing you can do to stop it.
|
I'm playing Zerg and Protoss (mainly zerg) was Diamond (or platinum when it was the highest you could get) on both phase.
ZvP: I'd say it's pretty balanced or a bit in the favor of Zergs. Protoss totaly got the early game while zerg has the late game. Protoss can do alot of timming pushes and some shenanigans but if zergs can survive it's GG TOSSY DUDE! :D
ZvT: I'd say it's a 70% terran victory. Simply put that with Hellion/Vicking harass (we could also put reaper harass but since I haven't seen this in a while...), Thors that negate mutalisk and Ultralisk(with the 250mm) and tanks that kill every other units in the zerg harsenal... it's a clear terran choice. Yes fungal is good but only against the MMM ball not against Tmech... overall terran is a powerfull race economicaly wise and unit wise. Everyone says that zerg mobility is the answer yet... only Zerglings are really fast and the only way to get units somewhat fast is to get the OoOoOozzeee spread but.. 1 observer and bye bye.... no more ooozeee!! That being said, i've spoke with alot of high level players such as SLush, Machine.... and they all said that it was a pretty hard matchup!
PvT: I'd say that it's pretty equal, maybe a small bit favored for terran but... since well microed HT can kill ghosts and late army are pretty equal... both have nice timing pushes... leads me to think that the machup is well balanced.
|
On July 14 2010 05:19 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 03:42 Gnial wrote:
You don't realise how effective it is to force the MM ball to stim and then run away, until its been done to you.
Yes, run away from the blob of troops moving as fast as a bunch of Mutalisks.
1. Forcefield
2. Blink
3. Sac a couple slower units - remember that their entire army just lost 1/4 of its health so its OK if you lose a couple. (And before anyone says anything, for #3 I'm talking about BEFORE medivacs come around)
|
On July 14 2010 06:10 Konsume wrote: Thors that negate mutalisk and Ultralisk(with the 250mm)
250mm cannon isn't that effective against ultras anymore...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
