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On July 22 2011 11:14 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:09 alexhard wrote:
I must admit AG is extremely good at his job. He's an extremely good rhetorician: he knows how to speak, and he knows how to make a fallacious argument seem legitimate. EG wouldn't keep sending him on your shows if did not. But part of your job as host and journalist is to outwit him and call him out when he's talking crap.
I don't think you're incapable of that, and as such I don't think you should stop having guests on your shows that I have enjoyed in the past and will continue to enjoy in the future... I felt like I called both of them on specific topics, but it appears that everyone is wrapped up in the final comments which is why I was trying to avoid that topic completely. Alex basically fired the gun with that topic and it hit people. Yes it was my responsibility to not let him fire the gun, but I feel like I'm being bashed unfairly because of it. I spoke to Milkis about it personally (when the show ended) and apologized to him and told him how horrible I felt. I honestly didn't mean any ill will when I did it and I simply didn't want that topic to be associated with Milkis' article. It wasn't fair.
To me, you wanted to stop it but at the same time you didn't want to (maybe because as you said you have strong opinions of it, I don't know), and that was quite bad for Milkis.
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On July 22 2011 11:14 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:12 Kh0nsu wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 EnderCraft wrote:
Guys, wheat didn't intentionally cut off Milkis in order to fuck him over, stop ridiculing him like he was. He felt that discussion wasn't one to be had on WoC. However, I believe Wheat did choose to stop the conversation at a very inappropriate time, and I think Wheat might agree. Agreed, I saw Wheat squashing that segment as a way of protecting Milkis. Yeah, Milkis was talking and it should have been stopped earlier when Alex was talking but Alex always has a way of forcing his point out regardless. Alex comes from the train of thought: If i talk fast, if i talk loud, if i talk over you, then i win. Seems to be EGs mantra lately.
Yeah, and against someone like Milkis who was new to that very harsh environment, it was overwhelming and probably better that Milkis didn't get to respond.
I guess the defence comes from people feeling sorry for Milkis (someone who is loved by the community) being subject to Alex's onslaught. I don't think people are actually furious with Wheat but since he is present in the thread, they feel obliged to support Milkis however they can.
EG are handling their business very aggressively...
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On July 22 2011 11:14 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:12 Kh0nsu wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 EnderCraft wrote:
Guys, wheat didn't intentionally cut off Milkis in order to fuck him over, stop ridiculing him like he was. He felt that discussion wasn't one to be had on WoC. However, I believe Wheat did choose to stop the conversation at a very inappropriate time, and I think Wheat might agree. Agreed, I saw Wheat squashing that segment as a way of protecting Milkis. Yeah, Milkis was talking and it should have been stopped earlier when Alex was talking but Alex always has a way of forcing his point out regardless. Alex comes from the train of thought: If i talk fast, if i talk loud, if i talk over you, then i win. Seems to be EGs mantra lately.
At least we know who incontrol learned it from. 
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On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote:
Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you.
The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives.
I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few.
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On July 22 2011 11:14 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:09 alexhard wrote:
I must admit AG is extremely good at his job. He's an extremely good rhetorician: he knows how to speak, and he knows how to make a fallacious argument seem legitimate. EG wouldn't keep sending him on your shows if did not. But part of your job as host and journalist is to outwit him and call him out when he's talking crap.
I don't think you're incapable of that, and as such I don't think you should stop having guests on your shows that I have enjoyed in the past and will continue to enjoy in the future... I felt like I called both of them on specific topics, but it appears that everyone is wrapped up in the final comments which is why I was trying to avoid that topic completely. Alex basically fired the gun with that topic and it hit people. Yes it was my responsibility to not let him fire the gun, but I feel like I'm being bashed unfairly because of it. I spoke to Milkis about it personally (when the show ended) and apologized to him and told him how horrible I felt. I honestly didn't mean any ill will when I did it and I simply didn't want that topic to be associated with Milkis' article. It wasn't fair.
I'm actually reminded about what Scoots and Slasher said on LO3 this week about the community and the need for fewer pitchforks and more cake.
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i think Wheat did the best he could when moderating the debate.
Did Alex talked too much? yup, he has much experience on this kind of stuff and so manipulated the debate very well ( interrupting milkis, circular arguments, etc.).
None of the Wheat haters on this thread could do a better job than Wheat.
christ, can we all just move along? this is just stupid and a waste of time.
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I'm glad esports fans aren't as gullible as EG thinks. You can keep your fair-weather spin for HoN WoW or whatever else. I'll stick with Milkis a reputable and valuable community member for years.
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On July 22 2011 11:19 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote:
Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you. The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives. I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few.
Maybe it would have been better to have Milkis on and let him talk, then end the call with him and then invite Alex to talk?
So no interaction between the two.
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On July 22 2011 11:14 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:09 alexhard wrote:
I must admit AG is extremely good at his job. He's an extremely good rhetorician: he knows how to speak, and he knows how to make a fallacious argument seem legitimate. EG wouldn't keep sending him on your shows if did not. But part of your job as host and journalist is to outwit him and call him out when he's talking crap.
I don't think you're incapable of that, and as such I don't think you should stop having guests on your shows that I have enjoyed in the past and will continue to enjoy in the future... I felt like I called both of them on specific topics, but it appears that everyone is wrapped up in the final comments which is why I was trying to avoid that topic completely. Alex basically fired the gun with that topic and it hit people. Yes it was my responsibility to not let him fire the gun, but I feel like I'm being bashed unfairly because of it. I spoke to Milkis about it personally (when the show ended) and apologized to him and told him how horrible I felt. I honestly didn't mean any ill will when I did it and I simply didn't want that topic to be associated with Milkis' article. It wasn't fair.
It wasn't just the end topic. Throughout the show he gave long-winded off-point answers. One question he was trying to answer he ended up going into a several minute discussion to preface it and by the time it was done he had even forgotten the original question. I completely disagree that you were biased in anyway, it was just a failure to control the guest.
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On July 22 2011 10:19 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:05 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Alex brought up a very valid point in calling forum posts and threads on TL.net (more often than not in the community news section) as journalism. It may not be journalism in name, but in terms of impact on the community itself (both the readers, posters, professional organizations and players involved), it is indistinguishable from actual journalism. There is actual money involved, and to say that the future of eSports is at stake isn't an understatement considering how all of this is still being "figured out" and how the ramifications can be so grave if "shit isn't sorted out."
While Milkis also makes a very valid point of "this is sort of responsibility is beyond my pay-grade," there's no escaping the actual influence he has (which is exactly what Alex points out is an attribute of journalism). To make an extreme example (and I will say explicitly isn't a reference to anything imagined or otherwise), it would be possible for a TL.net poster to make a libelous claim which later becomes revealed to be false, but the damage already being done and irreversible to an extent. The recourse for the individuals being wrong in such a case of libel would have little to no recourse beyond an honor system of sorts (a public apology, etc.). Even in an instance of a less malevolent example of say, simple incompetence, the damage would still be the same and public opinion even less sympathetic to those wronged (it was an accident, they shouldn't be so mad).
It's really an unfortunate situation for all involved, but I do think that actually addressing these issues would help eSports move forward as a whole, especially since the solution inescapably involves the community. We're standing on an opportunity here, and the way to capitalize on it is to take responsibility together and become stronger for it. Even when we accept the rather faulty assumption that Milkis would be a journalist (he isn't becasue TL is a forum, he doesn't do it professionally and thirdly he just translates): If you follow News on major outlets or even on directly on news agencies you will see that important articles with an reliable source (Coach Lee definitely is) get always instantely released and updated once more information are available. There is no reason for any news agency to wait to get all perspectives (and thus being slower than the competition). Those news get updated once more information is available - something which EG didn't provide. During the time EG tweeted silly stuff, TSL followed up with 2 more statements. If EG wants to have both perspectives in a news, they need to provide theirs - and they can't demand anyone waiting for their lazy asses to move.
I never made the assumption that Milkis was a journalist. I claimed that regardless of the fact whether he is or isn't, he wields the same influence as one, and therefore some (like Alex) would say Milkis has the same responsibilities of accurate reporting and fact checking.
What you are describing, quite frankly is sensationalist journalism, or rather shitty journalism. It is absolutely the responsibility of the reporter to get all of his or her facts straight when reporting on the story or they (and their publication) are legally responsible for libel and can be sued. There are no such repercussions for a TL.net post and that is the subject of the discussion Alex was (tangentially) trying to have. Getting the story from only a single reliable sources and never cross checking is not journalism, it is PR. Adding recent developments to the story is not the same thing as adding the "other side's story" which frankly, the other side is getting blind-sided in this situation.
It's important that the crux of the matter, how things information is conveyed to the community via a community-driven site and the financial impact it has on everyone (sponsors, teams, players, etc.) without the financial accountability, does not get lost in the finger-pointing.
We all want eSports to grow and be taken seriously by outsiders, this is an opportunity to take another step.
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On July 22 2011 11:17 xN.07)MaK wrote:
To me, you wanted to stop it but at the same time you didn't want to (maybe because as you said you have strong opinions of it, I don't know), and that was quite bad for Milkis.
I think that's fair. Maybe more of a... I wasn't sure how to stop it. Like I said, I could talk on that subject for days, but more importantly, it WAS NOT FAIR for that topic to be associated with Milkis. When AG said, "More than a translator, I actually had no idea where Alex was going". I let it go on a bit, agreed with Alex (but was certainly not trying to support it versus Milkis), and then agreed with Milkis when he said the Alex didn't approach them either. Once I realized where he was going with it, it was probably too late. Done deal.
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On July 22 2011 11:20 Emporio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:19 djWHEAT wrote:On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote:
Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you. The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives. I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few. Maybe it would have been better to have Milkis on and let him talk, then cut him out and then invite Alex to talk? So no interaction between the two.
In retrospect, sounds perfect, but how could Wheat have known at the time Alex was coming onto the show with an agenda as ridiculous as " i'm going to bash freedom of information and try to enforce regulations on public information ".
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On July 22 2011 11:14 xN.07)MaK wrote:
So Wheat, do you think we will have soon Kespa2 because of this? Do you think this is good/bad? Are they going to allow EG to participate in future tournaments organized by them?
I think this is the beginning of something big, not sure if good or bad.
there won't be a KESPA2 anytime soon
big reason being is that the people behind Kespa are the corporations that own the various BW teams
there are no corporations that own SC2 teams yet other than FXO with fOu
at best, the SC2 teams will get together and setup some basic guidelines/parameters on creating a more formal outlined procedure to prevent what transpired between EG, TSL, and Puma from happening again
if they start making players sign contracts then that honestly sucks for the players because unless they are a very big name player, the players are basically going to be signing themselves to an indentured contract since there isn't a lot of money to dole out in KR SC2 atm.
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On July 22 2011 11:20 Blasphemi wrote:
I'm glad esports fans aren't as gullible as EG thinks. You can keep your fair-weather spin for HoN WoW or whatever else. I'll stick with Milkis a reputable and valuable community member for years.
Milkis got steamrolled and attacked unfairly at the end... but let's not dismiss everything AG said... his points were definitely legitimate. If we want a global SC2 scene, we have to look along the lines of EG, not along the lines of the Korean BW Pride Scene. The winds are changing, and Milkis getting attacked unfairly doesn't change that.
EG is making the right moves..... but they need better PR so they are more understood and less emotions get involved.
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On July 22 2011 11:20 Doomgiver wrote:
i think Wheat did the best he could when moderating the debate.
Did Alex talked too much? yup, he has much experience on this kind of stuff and so manipulated the debate very well ( interrupting milkis, circular arguments, etc.).
None of the Wheat haters on this thread could do a better job than Wheat.
christ, can we all just move along? this is just stupid and a waste of time.
Thank you, I'll just consider this the end 
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To me it sounded like Alex was basically saying that community based journalism seems to be sensationalized and one sided, and simply stating that someone needs to step in and put a stop to it.
The journalistic side of e-sports is pretty undeveloped outside Korea, save some post game report write ups which are a pretty safe form of journalism. The Korean sources are much more at fault for writing up a "whistleblowing" article without consulting EG, but realistically when a Korean makes an accusations such as that against a foreign company biased and sensationalism are practically mandatory.
It's not the work of the community to finish the work of a Korean reporter, so in that Alex was wrong. His point was fairly valid, however we have to remind ourselves that his point was an after thought and not what he prepared to talk about on the show. Tone and word picking is fairly easy at moments when you go off topic like that, he should have known better.
Thankfully Wheat did, albeit a little slower, but it seemed Alex wasn't stopping until Wheat put his foot down a second time.
Entertaining nontheless.
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On July 22 2011 11:19 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:14 Blitz Beat wrote:On July 22 2011 11:12 Kh0nsu wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 EnderCraft wrote:
Guys, wheat didn't intentionally cut off Milkis in order to fuck him over, stop ridiculing him like he was. He felt that discussion wasn't one to be had on WoC. However, I believe Wheat did choose to stop the conversation at a very inappropriate time, and I think Wheat might agree. Agreed, I saw Wheat squashing that segment as a way of protecting Milkis. Yeah, Milkis was talking and it should have been stopped earlier when Alex was talking but Alex always has a way of forcing his point out regardless. Alex comes from the train of thought: If i talk fast, if i talk loud, if i talk over you, then i win. Seems to be EGs mantra lately. At least we know who incontrol learned it from.
Can't forget the passive aggressive "No offense but..." "i'm sorry but..." "i don't mean to but..."... "but...". Their whole company embodies this idea which is super disturbing. They talk smooth but their actions are hyper aggressive. Playing the victim card left and right. Sooner or later, they're going to get burned by another team/player/transaction and when that happens... no sympathy for them.
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I didn't think this was going to be a debate either, I just thought it was going to be an explanation and EG PR. That it spiraled into a debate was not Wheat's fault. However the last bit where Alex attempted to shift blame onto Milkis for translating was horrendous and you should have stopped it earlier. Unfortunately you stopped it at a point where Alex spoke for a few minutes and Milkis (rightfully) was working up an indignant response.
I enjoyed the nights show immensely and agree with what you said in your closing statements. However while it may have been great for Puma, I and others are concerned about the backlash this may have on the Korean SC2 scene.
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On July 22 2011 11:20 Blasphemi wrote:
I'm glad esports fans aren't as gullible as EG thinks. You can keep your fair-weather spin for HoN WoW or whatever else. I'll stick with Milkis a reputable and valuable community member for years.
I'm still trying to figure out what we're supposed to be mad at EG about. The calling out of Milkis was unnecessary but the original problem seems overblown.
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EPT
