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On July 22 2011 11:36 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
Sooooo in a nutshell: koreans are upset that they cant sit on the best players of the world without contracts and when someone approaches those players outside of korea it is disrespectful because the coach has essentially no saying because he didnt contract his player and felt he could sit on the best players and keep beating foreigners for as long as he wants within his elite.
Pretty much this, I don't know if you also heard, but EG had contract talks about "transfers" (similar to soccer) with other Korean teams, but they were asking for ABSURD amounts of money according to Alex.
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To be honest the whole thing just really pissed me off to the point where I had to get away from the internet afterwards. I haven't been that passionately responsive about something related to starcraft since the matchfixing scandal so it was pretty surprising.
No hate for djWHEAT, love the shows, love that you're a part of the community and I love anything that brings more esports information to the community. Don't like EG too much at the moment though. Hope they take good care of PuMa skill wise, I know it'll be alright financially.
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Come back Kespa all is forgiven.
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On July 22 2011 11:37 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:19 djWHEAT wrote:On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote:
Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you. The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives. I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few. I think you had a benevolent view of the situation Wheat, that AG would pop out and say "April Fools!" and it would all turn out to be this big misunderstanding. It turned out, of course, that AG showed up on your show to hijack the whole thing and hold it hostage with his total nonsense about saving Korean ESPORTS from themselves. I think Milkis got distracted by that, because it's (1) total nonsense, and (2) total nonsense, but I feel like you did too, and that led to all of us seething at our computers and wondering when somebody was going to ask AG why... - He thought a 19 year old could handle a team switch all on his own and - Why he hadn't contacted Coach Lee in the 18 hours after the whole thing broke. So the whole thing got muddled up, and then AG got excited and revealed his true colors, and then crash landed the show into the ocean.I thought you did a great job at the beginning in questioning AG, but weren't prepared for him to go rogue like he did.
Ironically, AG did not tell Milkis, "Great Post!" as you hoped.
I too felt he was going into some completely bizarre direction regarding Korean e-sports hurting itself in sc2, which never fleshed out, probably because it didn't make any sense.
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It turned out, of course, that AG showed up on your show to hijack the whole thing and hold it hostage with his total nonsense about saving Korean ESPORTS from themselves. I think Milkis got distracted by that, because it's (1) total nonsense, and (2) total nonsense, but I feel like you did too, and that led to all of us seething at our computers and wondering when somebody was going to ask AG why...
I saw this coming from a mile away and I have never even met or communicated with AG before. It's hard to believe Wheat didn't see this coming as I figured Wheat would have had even better foresight than me me given his closer relationship to AG.
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On July 22 2011 11:38 xN.07)MaK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:33 mTw|NarutO wrote:
So much drama... is it really such a big deal for the community right now or is it not as bad as it seems from reading through this thread? The only change will be Korean sc2 scene adapting to this "stealing" new situation. It's not clear how it will end up.
hide yo' kids hide yo' wife
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2011 11:28 Canucklehead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:19 djWHEAT wrote:On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote:
Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you. The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives. I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few. The problem I had with the show besides cutting off milkis all the time, is that neither you or alex acknowledge the cultural differences seriously enough. Both of you feel that this is how we do things in the west, so I don't owe anyone an apology for that. You're placing your own moral, cultural values and view on something, while trying to do business with a korean in korea. Alex still can't grasp milkis point that this would have gone down a lot better if he spoke to TSL's coach first. Instead of respecting the korean culture, he just defends himself by saying that's how we do things in the west and that is what is right so I don't owe anyone an apology for that. Milkis made the point that Rain left TSL under friendly terms because fnatic, rain and the coach all talked before hand. That point flies right over Alex's head because he can't believe all this was caused by what he calls a miscommunication and calls it an overreaction. Alex calls it an overreaction because that's his western viewpoint, so doesn't understand how not going to the coach first is a big deal. It's that cultural gap and not understanding of it is what caused this firestorm. However, it's quite clear that Alex still won't acknowledge that because he said they may apologize, but just because you apologize, doesn't mean you want to, but are just forced to.
This- all of it. In all business courses they talk about the culture gap (in the world) and how you must bridge/abide by different standards; AG going off about "how we do in the west" is just... for lack of a better wording- terrible.
EG's PR machine was slow out of the hanger and crashed-landed on a remote island.
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I find it utmost reasonable for players looking for ways to make a living.
Ways to find a living?
How is moving out of a house you lived and got fed in for free for a meager salary (unless EG wants to break salary records on someone who has never been in code a) reasonable?
He won't be able to live off himself so what you're implying is most likely that he will move into EGs house in a country whose knowledge he holds little of and houses FAR inferior players. If they plan on leaving him in Korea what will he do? Ladder all day?
It seems to me that was seduced by the annual dollars he has most likely never seen to join EG. Had he stayed in Korea he would have gotten a similar deal (look at what TSL paid FD and Tester) and it would have been in an environment he is comfortable in with actually half-decent competitive players. If EG had approached TSL they could have offered him a similar salary and he would have most likely stayed.
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Extremely poor journalism..while probably unintentional, it appeared as a very well planned one-sided set up against Milkis and his irrespective on the event. Unfortunate.
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On July 22 2011 11:47 Rinrun wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2011 11:28 Canucklehead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:19 djWHEAT wrote:On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote:
Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you. The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives. I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few. The problem I had with the show besides cutting off milkis all the time, is that neither you or alex acknowledge the cultural differences seriously enough. Both of you feel that this is how we do things in the west, so I don't owe anyone an apology for that. You're placing your own moral, cultural values and view on something, while trying to do business with a korean in korea. Alex still can't grasp milkis point that this would have gone down a lot better if he spoke to TSL's coach first. Instead of respecting the korean culture, he just defends himself by saying that's how we do things in the west and that is what is right so I don't owe anyone an apology for that. Milkis made the point that Rain left TSL under friendly terms because fnatic, rain and the coach all talked before hand. That point flies right over Alex's head because he can't believe all this was caused by what he calls a miscommunication and calls it an overreaction. Alex calls it an overreaction because that's his western viewpoint, so doesn't understand how not going to the coach first is a big deal. It's that cultural gap and not understanding of it is what caused this firestorm. However, it's quite clear that Alex still won't acknowledge that because he said they may apologize, but just because you apologize, doesn't mean you want to, but are just forced to. This- all of it. In all business courses they talk about the culture gap (in the world) and how you must bridge/abide by different standards; AG going off about "how we do in the west" is just... for lack of a better wording- terrible. EG's PR machine was slow out of the hanger and crashed-landed on a remote island.
Then they gave the native inhabitants of that remote island smallpox and stole their coconuts. They were asking for it with the way they just left them lying around.
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On July 22 2011 11:39 LeFroMaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:36 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
Sooooo in a nutshell: koreans are upset that they cant sit on the best players of the world without contracts and when someone approaches those players outside of korea it is disrespectful because the coach has essentially no saying because he didnt contract his player and felt he could sit on the best players and keep beating foreigners for as long as he wants within his elite.
Pretty much this, I don't know if you also heard, but EG had contract talks about "transfers" (similar to soccer) with other Korean teams, but they were asking for ABSURD amounts of money according to Alex.
to bring in some humour here.
I think Alex forgot to convert Won to dollars.
He said that they were asking for more than the company was worth, and that, that just doesn't make any sense
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On July 22 2011 11:54 EtohEtoh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:39 LeFroMaGe wrote:On July 22 2011 11:36 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
Sooooo in a nutshell: koreans are upset that they cant sit on the best players of the world without contracts and when someone approaches those players outside of korea it is disrespectful because the coach has essentially no saying because he didnt contract his player and felt he could sit on the best players and keep beating foreigners for as long as he wants within his elite.
Pretty much this, I don't know if you also heard, but EG had contract talks about "transfers" (similar to soccer) with other Korean teams, but they were asking for ABSURD amounts of money according to Alex. to bring in some humour here. I think Alex forgot to convert Won to dollars. He said that they were asking for more than the company was worth, and that, that just doesn't make any sense
LOL. Wow, that is pathetically stupid if that's the case. Unless, of course, the Koreans were actually asking for hundreds of thousands of US dollars (or perhaps even millions, as I'm not sure how much EG is worth) for one transfer? I find that EXCEEDINGLY unlikely.
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EG's PR machine was slow out of the hanger and crashed-landed on a remote island.
I just don't think EG cares...they are plainly better than everyone and will do as they please.
And Wheat, I missed the very end of the show, but thought you were doing a great job for everything I saw. I know you aren't "employed" by EG, but there is some sort of relationship there through the show, so it would not be too shocking if you were biased. You didn't let it show much if at all through what I saw (again, I missed the last 15 minutes....to you know, play some sc2, which I think us forum posters should do more of....!)
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On July 22 2011 11:39 LeFroMaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:36 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
Sooooo in a nutshell: koreans are upset that they cant sit on the best players of the world without contracts and when someone approaches those players outside of korea it is disrespectful because the coach has essentially no saying because he didnt contract his player and felt he could sit on the best players and keep beating foreigners for as long as he wants within his elite.
Pretty much this, I don't know if you also heard, but EG had contract talks about "transfers" (similar to soccer) with other Korean teams, but they were asking for ABSURD amounts of money according to Alex.
Yeah I heard...
The undertone of the whole discussion is Korea as center of SC2 vs SC2 as international Esport. You can say "we are open to outsiders" and deny them every way of getting in, or you could actually open the gates. The irony is that currently the gates are still open and people start to realise it.
Personally I don't want Broodwar back. Noone can seriously argue that Broodwar was a global Esport or that korea was taking much initiative to grow it globally. Sure foreigners could enter korean tournaments and get smashed by the trained elite at hand but this is not what SC2 is yet and should be.
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On July 22 2011 11:50 hyptonic wrote:Ways to find a living? How is moving out of a house you lived and got fed in for free for a meager salary (unless EG wants to break salary records on someone who has never been in code a) reasonable? He won't be able to live off himself so what you're implying is most likely that he will move into EGs house in a country whose knowledge he holds little of and houses FAR inferior players. If they plan on leaving him in Korea what will he do? Ladder all day? It seems to me that was seduced by the annual dollars he has most likely never seen to join EG. Had he stayed in Korea he would have gotten a similar deal (look at what TSL paid FD and Tester) and it would have been in an environment he is comfortable in with actually half-decent competitive players. If EG had approached TSL they could have offered him a similar salary and he would have most likely stayed.
Where do you get the impression that he wont be fed in the EG house as well? And does live there for free? And at least get a decent salary at all? And travel expenses for all that matters. This is what you call "wont be able to live off himself"? You know, some people do like to get out into the world, spend a couple of years abroad, while they are in the prime of youth.
Regardless of your latter assumptions the fact is, the deal was sufficiently attractive to be considered by Puma. And a growing number of his colleagues. He might have gotten a similar deal in KR. Or not. And later. He saw his chance - now.
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On July 22 2011 11:59 Ekval wrote:Show nested quote +EG's PR machine was slow out of the hanger and crashed-landed on a remote island. I just don't think EG cares...they are plainly better than everyone and will do as they please. And Wheat, I missed the very end of the show, but thought you were doing a great job for everything I saw. I know you aren't "employed" by EG, but there is some sort of relationship there through the show, so it would not be too shocking if you were biased. You didn't let it show much if at all through what I saw (again, I missed the last 15 minutes....to you know, play some sc2, which I think us forum posters should do more of....!)
EG aren't even the best foreign team.
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On July 22 2011 11:47 Rinrun wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2011 11:28 Canucklehead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:19 djWHEAT wrote:On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote:
Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you. The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives. I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few. The problem I had with the show besides cutting off milkis all the time, is that neither you or alex acknowledge the cultural differences seriously enough. Both of you feel that this is how we do things in the west, so I don't owe anyone an apology for that. You're placing your own moral, cultural values and view on something, while trying to do business with a korean in korea. Alex still can't grasp milkis point that this would have gone down a lot better if he spoke to TSL's coach first. Instead of respecting the korean culture, he just defends himself by saying that's how we do things in the west and that is what is right so I don't owe anyone an apology for that. Milkis made the point that Rain left TSL under friendly terms because fnatic, rain and the coach all talked before hand. That point flies right over Alex's head because he can't believe all this was caused by what he calls a miscommunication and calls it an overreaction. Alex calls it an overreaction because that's his western viewpoint, so doesn't understand how not going to the coach first is a big deal. It's that cultural gap and not understanding of it is what caused this firestorm. However, it's quite clear that Alex still won't acknowledge that because he said they may apologize, but just because you apologize, doesn't mean you want to, but are just forced to. This- all of it. In all business courses they talk about the culture gap (in the world) and how you must bridge/abide by different standards; AG going off about "how we do in the west" is just... for lack of a better wording- terrible. EG's PR machine was slow out of the hanger and crashed-landed on a remote island.
However, the talk about western esports wasn't in defense of what happend with TSL. He clearly said that is was a seperat issue he would like to explain, for all the forum people that didn't seem to grasp how thing works outside of Korea and think everything is like NFL, soccer etc etc.
He said that they where only in the start of talking to Puma and TSL, and somewhere along the translations something went a bit off, he did say he was sorry for parts of it but couldn't completly understand coach Lee and his running to the press before anyone had a chance to even start talking to TSL about a deal that included them. His answers might not be as direct beacuse he didn't want to throw korean partners and puma under the bus live on air.
Then the whole debat about the growth of global SC2 began, and Alex was talking about how the international scene would suffer from a system like in BW, not how korean esports was going to be saved. something he clarified several times when that misunderstanding was brought up.
I think people have listened to the show with biased views 
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On July 22 2011 11:59 Ekval wrote:Show nested quote +EG's PR machine was slow out of the hanger and crashed-landed on a remote island. I just don't think EG cares...they are plainly better than everyone and will do as they please.
Care to elaborate on how you say EG is "better than everyone"? Their star player hasn't won anything in years and the rest of their team would be struggle to get top 8 in almost any international event. Puma took a major downgrade in practice partners for some quick cash. He managed to win $50,000 as a result of his training in TSL. He's going to need a pretty damn good salary on EG to make up for his tournament winnings plummeting after a few months of training with NA players.
Ask any member of EG and they will agree that they are significantly worse than Korean professionals right now. Even Idra has said that Koreans are way, way ahead of everyone right now. And Alex from EG mentioned that Puma will be training in the EG house in Korea.
Going from an (obviously) great coach + great practice partners + KR ladder to ----> (Does EG even have a coach?) + practice partners Puma greatly outclasses, except for Idra, whom he somewhat outclasses + **NA ladder** is bound to harshly impact his ability to keep up with Korean power houses who continue to train as hard as they can on Korean teams. And even though they are international events, the only real contenders will be Korean trained players. It doesn't matter if he's better than all of NA or EU. They aren't his real opponents at events.
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On July 22 2011 12:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:59 Ekval wrote:EG's PR machine was slow out of the hanger and crashed-landed on a remote island. I just don't think EG cares...they are plainly better than everyone and will do as they please. Care to elaborate on how you say EG is "better than everyone"? Their star player hasn't won anything in years and the rest of their team would be struggle to get top 8 in almost any international event. Puma took a major downgrade in practice partners for some quick cash. He managed to win $50,000 as a result of his training in TSL. He's going to need a pretty damn good salary on EG to make up for his tournament winnings plummeting after a few months of training with NA players. Ask any member of EG and they will agree that they are significantly worse than Korean professionals right now. Even Idra has said that Koreans are way, way ahead of everyone right now. And Alex from EG mentioned that Puma will be training in the EG house in Korea. Going from an (obviously) great coach + great practice partners + KR ladder to ----> (Does EG even have a coach?) + practice partners Puma greatly outclasses, except for Idra, whom he somewhat outclasses + **NA ladder** is bound to harshly impact his ability to keep up with Korean power houses who continue to train as hard as they can on Korean teams. And even though they are international events, the only real contenders will be Korean trained players. It doesn't matter if he's better than all of NA or EU. They aren't his real opponents at events.
I think he is talking in terms of attitude and not in-game skill.
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EPT
