I can't believe how many people there are jumping all over DjWheat. All of these people going on about how he was ganging up with AJ on Milkis are crazy.
The point of the episode was clearly not based around where it ended up going so he tried to stop it when he could.
Sure he may not have moderated it perfectly but I honestly don't think it was that bad. Everyone focusing on the last five minutes and not the rest of the show need to calm down and look at the whole picture.
I am condident that DjWheat had no intention of ganging up/insulting/whatever else you guys are accusing him. He has done so much for the community and I am shocked that so many people turned on him over that episode.
On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote: Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you.
The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives.
I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few.
-Alex is EG's resident spin-doctor -spews corporate bullshit and spin every time he's on the show -Milkis inadvertently made EG look bad -Milkis is not properly able to keep from becoming a punching bag
On July 22 2011 11:07 Executor1 wrote:It was infuriating to listen too and was very unproffesional while still trying to act like a proffesional, but that was that eg guys whole shpiel "this isnt a loaded question (when it is)" "im not personally attacking you" (when he is) Im giving off the vibe of a proffesional (when he isnt).
That was the very last segment of a long show.
On July 22 2011 11:07 Executor1 wrote:I feel really sorry for milkis he basically got set up. I dont know how EG thought this sort of thing would help them, at least for people like me who actually listened to the nonesense alexy was spouting, it just made the situation worse. He went off on a tangent that had nothing to do with the issue at hand , he tried to make it sound like his decision was benifiting e-sports on a global scale and was setting a precident for other companies to do the same.
Please be so kind to refer to the points that allegedly had "nothing to do with the issue at hand". As I can recall, these were the main points:
1) Timeline of events TLS ~ EG: Basically EG says, Puma told them, he thinks he should talk to his coach first.
2) Question of inappropiate behavior of EG: Milkis suggested talking to the coach regardless of what Puma said. EG making the point that they were not aware that they should have done it that way.
3) Portrait of both western and kr scene: Protectionism vs. Globalization. Future course of models.
On July 22 2011 11:07 Executor1 wrote:I think the most ridiculous part was when he said the Korean teams were over reacting because they were going to hold a meeting and set some rules in place to make sure this didnt happen again.
Sure EG what EG did was perfectly legal but that doesnt make it right in my eyes, I also look at puma like he kind of sold out. TSL trains him feeds him lets him live in the house, and then he wins a major tournament and shits all over them? that may be an exageration but basically the rising star of TSL was Stolen because the coach (foolishly) thought that they were all in it together, there was even a meeting after fruitdealer and tester left where they agreed that they were all in it together.
It sucks for coach lee, and i think that it is not at all an overreaction for the korean teams to hold a meeting and put things in place so that something like this NEVER happens again, contract or not its not fair to teams like TSL and coach lee who invests his own money and basically volunteers as a coach and manager so that his team and e-sports in korea can succeed. Unlike EG right now there are far fewer financial motivators for him to have a star player (their could be more in the future, this is what he is trying to acheive).
Puma left TSL out to dry for a most likely "modest" salary from EG which he probably saw as big bucks because he doesnt come from a wealthy background.
And that is exactly what I refer to as romanticism. It is perfectly legit to touch on that topic, since there currently is and will be even more interest in the KR player market in the future. The fact that there exists a significant amount of vested interest outside of KR and that this capital is looking for ways into the scene. And the question of how that can be accomplished, and under what model.
I find it utmost reasonable for players looking for ways to make a living.
On July 22 2011 11:20 Doomgiver wrote: i think Wheat did the best he could when moderating the debate. Did Alex talked too much? yup, he has much experience on this kind of stuff and so manipulated the debate very well ( interrupting milkis, circular arguments, etc.).
None of the Wheat haters on this thread could do a better job than Wheat.
christ, can we all just move along? this is just stupid and a waste of time.
Thank you, I'll just consider this the end
I like happy endings. 4 20 am, time to go to bed lol!.
On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote: Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you.
The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives.
I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few.
The problem I had with the show besides cutting off milkis all the time, is that neither you or alex acknowledge the cultural differences seriously enough.
Both of you feel that this is how we do things in the west, so I don't owe anyone an apology for that. You're placing your own moral, cultural values and view on something, while trying to do business with a korean in korea.
Alex still can't grasp milkis point that this would have gone down a lot better if he spoke to TSL's coach first. Instead of respecting the korean culture, he just defends himself by saying that's how we do things in the west and that is what is right so I don't owe anyone an apology for that.
Milkis made the point that Rain left TSL under friendly terms because fnatic, rain and the coach all talked before hand. That point flies right over Alex's head because he can't believe all this was caused by what he calls a miscommunication and calls it an overreaction.
Alex calls it an overreaction because that's his western viewpoint, so doesn't understand how not going to the coach first is a big deal. It's that cultural gap and not understanding of it is what caused this firestorm. However, it's quite clear that Alex still won't acknowledge that because he said they may apologize, but just because you apologize, doesn't mean you want to, but are just forced to.
Pretty funny how people seem to think that Milkis was set up to do the show, when he was there to give some insight in what happend in Korea over all this.
I didn't see him as someone being there to defend anyone, that role could only Milkis give himself with the way he chooses to answer questions. Mostly I think people are channeling there own will to be in a debate with Ales on to Milkis and then starting to see things in the wrong light.
The last thing was however strange, and Alex should know that the person he should talk to or have as a counterpart on a show about that topic is Nazgul or a rep for TL, not Milkis.
A personal interest in the workings of a translated article on TL could have been dealt with after the show with Milkis, now it comes up as a jab at TL that seemed to have been on Alex mind for some time.
On July 22 2011 10:48 djWHEAT wrote: Ok. From this point forward I'm never having guests on a show ever again. That will just solve everything. I can't be held accountable for how much a guests talks, or how little he talks.
So, I'll just stop doing it. You fucking paint me as this bad guy... and that's not the case at all.
Fuck it.
That's the thing Wheat, you do have the power to control how much or how little they talk. For instance, at the end of the interview Alex spent a long time questioning the ethics of Milkis posting the tranlated interview without going to EG first. Then, when Milkis tried to explain why it is not his job to get EG's side of the story, you cut him off. I understand that the conversation was getting uncomfortable, but allowing Alex to throw a lot of accusations Milkis way (some which were completely unfounded) was what took it down that road in the first place.
This is how I felt throughout the whole ordeal. The moderator has the power to control what and how the questions are asked, and how much room you give for responses. In fact, that is the moderator's most important job. If you let Alex go off-tangent on asking about Milkis' unprofessional "journalism," you must let Milkis respond instead of cutting him off. Of course it would have been the best to simply stop Alex from asking the question. But afterwards you even interject your own opinion into the discussion, giving Milkis even less time and space to work with. I felt this happened couple times during the show, and with all due respect hope that you will be able to do a better job next time. It was impossible not to get irritated at what kind of position Milkis was being put in.
On July 22 2011 11:20 Blasphemi wrote: I'm glad esports fans aren't as gullible as EG thinks. You can keep your fair-weather spin for HoN WoW or whatever else. I'll stick with Milkis a reputable and valuable community member for years.
I'm still trying to figure out what we're supposed to be mad at EG about. The calling out of Milkis was unnecessary but the original problem seems overblown.
Basically, After hearing EG's side, it seems to be reasonable that they are trying to sign PUMA, as he doesn't have a contract or anything.
The reason everyones jumping on EG is because Alex basically ran over a valued community member in Milkis, and many people are very upset about that.
On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote: Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you.
The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives.
I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few.
The problem I had with the show besides cutting off milkis all the time, is that neither you or alex acknowledge the cultural differences seriously enough.
There is no such thing. The korean Brood War scene and general business are even more meticulous than westerns, the SC2 scene is just amateurish.
On July 22 2011 11:28 Canucklehead wrote: The problem I had with the show besides cutting off milkis all the time, is that neither you or alex acknowledge the cultural differences seriously enough.
This was pretty much my concern.
It honestly disappoints me that Alex misses something so simple but important as communication when we as the foreign SC2 community are trying to create a bigger, better scene along with Korea and all of this is still very new and unexokired,
On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote: Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you.
The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives.
I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few.
I toned into the show completely unexpected and neutral, started hearing about how AG is saying "I'm not accusing you of false journalism, but what you are doing is false journalism".
And then milk tried to say something, you cut him off.
Then AG went on another 3 minutes to farther explain his accusation and how its not an accusation. You let him finish.
Milk tried to say something again, you cut him off again.
Same thing repeats for 3 times.
Here's the thing, i duno if you are doing it intentionally, and I like your show and your cast. But if you cut one of your guests 3 times during a show when he's being ATTACKED and trying to defend himself.
Is it wrong for me to assume you are on the other side?
On July 22 2011 11:33 mTw|NarutO wrote: So much drama... is it really such a big deal for the community right now or is it not as bad as it seems from reading through this thread?
You're reading 1% of the community, and only the most vocal at that. For the community at large, this is basically a non-event.
Sooooo in a nutshell: koreans are upset that they cant sit on the best players of the world without contracts and when someone approaches those players outside of korea it is disrespectful because the coach has essentially no saying because he didnt contract his player and felt he could sit on the best players and keep beating foreigners for as long as he wants within his elite.
On July 22 2011 11:20 Blasphemi wrote: I'm glad esports fans aren't as gullible as EG thinks. You can keep your fair-weather spin for HoN WoW or whatever else. I'll stick with Milkis a reputable and valuable community member for years.
I'm still trying to figure out what we're supposed to be mad at EG about. The calling out of Milkis was unnecessary but the original problem seems overblown.
Basically, After hearing EG's side, it seems to be reasonable that they are trying to sign PUMA, as he doesn't have a contract or anything.
The reason everyones jumping on EG is because Alex basically ran over a valued community member in Milkis, and many people are very upset about that.
People accuse them of being unethical, as Korean teams work in a different way (more like a community/family). Plus not contacting manager this decision (again, there is no contract but in their culture at least you have to tell them as he spent 10 months in a house where he was provided food, practice, and full prize earnings).
That's EG to blame regarding Puma situation.
Not to talk about Milkis topic. That was plain unprofessional, which for sure wont help EG to have a better communication with the community in the future.
My take on the original ordeal, EG really kinda just got unlucky. They contacted a free agent, and then asked him how to proceed with the move between teams. Unfortunately, that player responded in a way that was against what would be the norm in Korea, however, EG chose to trust in that Puma's decision. So while in that regard, EG were in the wrong about Korean culture, there was zero malicious intent, and nothing serious to be apologetic about. They trusted that Puma's choice to talk to the coach personally was the right one, and unfortunately it wasnt.
On July 22 2011 11:09 Andross wrote: Don't have a debate if you can't moderate, Wheat. Even made it into a nice little rhyme for you.
The problem was it was supposed to be more of an INFO dump that took a turn to "debate". How can you prepare for something like that? The original intent wasn't a AG VS MILKIS it was more like, Milkis presented the original story, he has good knowledge of the culture and the scene and of this specific topic. Alex had the missing piece of the story. The goal was to put the two together, get facts we didn't know about (which I feel we did accomplish), and discuss it from various perspectives.
I honestly don't think I could have predicted in any capacity things would have gone that way... and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches... in this case, I got hit by quite a few.
I think you had a benevolent view of the situation Wheat, that AG would pop out and say "April Fools!" and it would all turn out to be this big misunderstanding. It turned out, of course, that AG showed up on your show to hijack the whole thing and hold it hostage with his total nonsense about saving Korean ESPORTS from themselves. I think Milkis got distracted by that, because it's (1) total nonsense, and (2) total nonsense, but I feel like you did too, and that led to all of us seething at our computers and wondering when somebody was going to ask AG why... - He thought a 19 year old could handle a team switch all on his own and - Why he hadn't contacted Coach Lee in the 18 hours after the whole thing broke.
So the whole thing got muddled up, and then AG got excited and revealed his true colors, and then crash landed the show into the ocean.I thought you did a great job at the beginning in questioning AG, but weren't prepared for him to go rogue like he did.
On July 22 2011 11:33 mTw|NarutO wrote: So much drama... is it really such a big deal for the community right now or is it not as bad as it seems from reading through this thread?
The only change will be Korean sc2 scene adapting to this "stealing" new situation. It's not clear how it will end up.
EPT
