Protoss air is lacking? - Page 3

On April 06 2010 00:54 Spaylz wrote:
The only thing wrong with Protoss air is Phoenixes. It makes me laugh when people say they are useful. THEY'RE WORTHLESS, COME ON. None of you have ever played a PvZ where the Z goes mass Muta. It's unbeatable. You can't go Phoenix because Mutas will eat them up as soon as there are more than 10 of them, you can't go Void Rays because their attack is too slow, you can't go Carrier because you will have lost by the time you even get one and you can't properly defend your base and your expand from the harass with Stalkers because Mutas are too damn fast, even if you get Blink.

Phoenixes need some AoE to counter Mutalisks. I've lost to so many Zergs that just do Mutalisks in massive amounts and don't do anything else. Cannons don't counter the harass either, and they can get out of a Storm very easily too thanks to their speed. Protoss need something to deal with them.

On April 06 2010 01:40 Ryuu314 wrote:

You're probably some copper league scrub if you think Mutas are unbeatable and Phoenix are worthless.

With the stalker buff, stalkers+sentries and maybe 1 or 2 cannons at your mineral lines are all the anti-muta you will ever need. Phoenix absolutely rape muta in 2:3 ratios with good micro/focus firing. Obviously if you only build like 4-5 Phoenix for early harass and expect it to kill 10 mutas you're dreaming. They're different from BW sairs in that you only need like 6 sairs to deal with practically any amount of mutas zerg throws at you. Not so in SC2. Get that in your mind. Learn it. Phoenix don't have splash so you need to produce a larger amount of them.

Also, Phoenix AG skill is ridiculous in terms of base harassment and they're also quite useful in battles. It basically takes X units out of the battle where X is the number of Phoenix you have.

The only issue I have with mutas is when they use them in combination with mass zerglings or hydras. It's kinda ridiculous imo how many mutas and zerglings they can produce off just 2 bases.

On April 06 2010 01:55 Fruscainte wrote:
Something I'm not getting. How is the pheonix any different from the Corsair, if not more powerful? The low damage or something?

On April 06 2010 01:40 Ryuu314 wrote:
Phoenix absolutely rape muta in 2:3 ratios with good micro/focus firing.

On April 06 2010 01:54 Spaylz wrote:


Ok man. I never said I expected 5 Phoenixes to kill 10 Mutas. 10 Phoenixes will indeed rape 10 Mutalisks, but any fight involving a higher and equal amount of both those units will result in Mutalisks raping Phoenixes because of the bounce. You CAN'T counter the harass with 2 cannons and a few Stalkers man, get fucking real. A Zerg will come with like 12 Mutalisks and will kill 20 probes before you kill like 5 Mutalisks. Even if you manage to hang in there while he's harassing, the Zerg can still do whatever he wants meanwhile.

Not to mention, as it was pointed out before, Phoenix cost 150/100 while Mutalisks cost 100/100 except they can attack ground and a Stargate is not necesseraly part of any real build (yet). And don't tell me Phoenixes can do that also with the gravity spell, because it's just not comparable with Mutalisks.

"The only issue I have with mutas is when they use them in combination with mass zerglings or hydras. It's kinda ridiculous imo how many mutas and zerglings they can produce off just 2 bases."

That was kind of implied, since I said that while he's harassing you and you're struggling to counter said harass, the Zerg can expand all he wants or can produce an insane amount of unit by pumping on his two bases. A production you will never match by replacing the probes you lost to the harass and going back and forth with your Stalkers to defend both your mineral lines. Because once again NO, 2 cannons and 5 Stalkers will never fend off 10 Mutalisks before they get a chance to destroy a butload of probes.

So please, next time you try to argue with me, don't call me a scrub and don't throw your annoying frustration my way.

On April 06 2010 01:40 Ryuu314 wrote:

You're probably some copper league scrub if you think Mutas are unbeatable and Phoenix are worthless.

With the stalker buff, stalkers+sentries and maybe 1 or 2 cannons at your mineral lines are all the anti-muta you will ever need. Phoenix absolutely rape muta in 2:3 ratios with good micro/focus firing. Obviously if you only build like 4-5 Phoenix for early harass and expect it to kill 10 mutas you're dreaming. They're different from BW sairs in that you only need like 6 sairs to deal with practically any amount of mutas zerg throws at you. Not so in SC2. Get that in your mind. Learn it. Phoenix don't have splash so you need to produce a larger amount of them.

Also, Phoenix AG skill is ridiculous in terms of base harassment and they're also quite useful in battles. It basically takes X units out of the battle where X is the number of Phoenix you have.

The only issue I have with mutas is when they use them in combination with mass zerglings or hydras. It's kinda ridiculous imo how many mutas and zerglings they can produce off just 2 bases.

On April 06 2010 05:05 Ryuu314 wrote:

First off, what do you mean by higher and equal? You said 10 phoenix will rape 10 mutas so...what? Go youtube the 100 phoenix v. 100 muta video. Phoenix win by a long shot. As long as you maintain a decent ratio of phoenix to muta, phoenix will always come out on top with micro.

And yes, I agree with you that Phoenix cost more and build slower than Mutas. Which is why I never said you had to counter mutas with only phoenix. And don't say AG is a useless spell or that it's not comparable with mutas or w/e. Watch orb's streams. He uses phoenix AG to a rather great success. Now, I'm not saying that making Phoenix will win you the game every time. In fact, massing phoenix will probably get you steamrolled. What I am saying though, is that Phoenix are not worthless as you say they are. They just need to be used properly in moderation.

Also, you're not supposed to hold off 10 mutas with 2 cannons and 5 stalkers. Just look at resource cost. 10 mutas (1000 min and 1000 gas) cost way more than 2 cannons and 5 stalkers (925 minerals 125 gas). Of course the 2 cannons and 5 stalkers are going to lose. Are you kidding me? You're supposed to get more than just 5 stalkers if you see zerg investing heavily in muta. You need something like 2 stalkers for every 3 mutas they bring. Also, you conveniently ignored the fact that I said cannons, stalkers and sentries. Sentries guardian shield basically nullifies muta bounce attack. They are pretty dam good versus muta.

How do I know this? Because I've done it, and other players much better than I have done it. It's very possible and easy to hold off muta harass with cannons stalkers and sentries. Actually try it before saying it's impossible. And when I say try it I don't mean trying to kill 10 mutas with 5 stalkers; that's ridiculous.

@Grim Reaper: I'm pretty darn sure it's the other way around. Phoenix are faster than muta...

On April 06 2010 20:20 Spaylz wrote:


....... I can't get enough of people that bring up that ridiculous video in an argument like this. You really believe this is relevant ? How does it help to know that 100 Phoenixes will kill 100 Mutas ? Will you ever be able to reproduce that pattern in a normal game ? No. There are dozens of other factors happening in a game that makes this video completely irrelevant. Oh ! I also saw a video of an Ultralisk killing 800 Zerglings. You seen an Ultralisk in a high level game lately ? So please...

By higher and equal, I mean 12+ of each unit, that's about the amount where the bounce becomes too harsh for the Phoenixes to handle. Also, I watch orb's stream everyday and I haven't seen him use a Phoenix even once. You can't match the Zerg's amount of Mutalisks with your Phoenixes, because the build time is relatively the same, except once his Spire is up he will be producing them on 4 or even 8 larvas while you're stuck on your one or maybe two Stargates. And due to the Phoenix's cost, your Stalker production is set back aswell.

"Just look at resource cost. 10 mutas (1000 min and 1000 gas) cost way more than 2 cannons and 5 stalkers (925 minerals 125 gas)"

Great math skills there. Stalker is 50 gas, not 25. Doesn't change much tho, I give you that. Eventhough, I find it ridiculous that in order to counter one unit, you have to mass up two (or even three if you add Phoenixes to the Stalkers and Sentries) yourself + add cannons. That's the Marauder issue all over again... But I digress. I would appreciate if you stopped giving me attitude too. I say it's very tough to counter Muta harass because I played against it myself, and I failed. Maybe it's a level matter, I ain't saying I'm pro, but I'm not the only one having this issue. And while HasuObs and co seem to have no problem countering it, I myself can't and I'd like to know how they do it (and I don't believe they counter it like you do) You can't secure a second base while Mutalisks are harassing, because you will never be able to mass up an army big enough to handle both bases.

I've played a few games against Zerg players that harassed me like this, and I don't think I've won even one of them. It's quite a simple pattern, the Zerg expands, you can either timepush (which I hear is very deadly, haven't got a chance to try it out yet, maybe that's the counter) or you can b2 yourself. If you choose to b2 and the Zerg chooses to harass Muta, you're pretty much forced to stay within your base and dance between your b1 and b2 only to still lose a significant amount of probes while the Zerg keeps producing or expanding. Because no, you can't possibly have enough units to efficiently counter the harass on both bases by splitting your army. And I also doubt you'd have enough money to make more than 2 or 3 cannons on both also.

On April 06 2010 03:48 Grim(Reaper) wrote:
mutalisks are faster than phoenixes so with good micro a equal number muta/phoenix the muta will win.

On April 07 2010 04:55 Cloak wrote:
If Phoenixes need ground support to keep up the pace, then it is physically impossible for Protoss to gain air dominance in any reasonable manner. That air will always be tethered to those slow ass Sentries. I'm not entirely sure if the bubble even helps air units. AtA should have a steady advantage over Mutas especially when they cost more. If Protoss wants to go air, then it should be able to go air. We can all agree that we need to see more Stargate play.

Much like with Terran Mech, the units are too costly to be effective. Ideally, you want the possibilities of:

Mass Warp Gate units, backed up by Robo/Stargate/Both.
Mass Robo units, backed up by etc.
Mass Stargate, backed up by etc.

Same with the Barracks, Factory, Starport and Zerg's tech.

That would achieve maximum possible diversity of unit compositions. Phoenix backed up by Sentries seems like it fits into this schematic, but you're dedicating another unit to get an AtA to do its damn job.