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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 07 2010 19:20 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 18:10 Plexa wrote:
Void Rays are amazing. They are not a cheesy unit and they will become the most important unit in the Protoss arsenal years down the track. They are the new corsair imo, since they play a similar role to them (harass but moreso, scouting) and are valid in every matchup. Truly a wonder unit. I've watched hundreds of top level games and I've never seen it be anything but a gimmick. Claiming that "it's the new corsair its just that you nor anyone else cant see it but I can" really feels like the emperors new clothes. Corsair is used in masses pretty much every game (pvz), I've not seen one single game where void rays have been used in mass. If you are going to do such a bold claim, I'd expect it to come with an abundance of evidence, instead, you provide none. Show us some top tournament level games where it is used as much as corsair is in any random SC1 PvZ game.
You don't understand why Corsair are useful in PvZ  it's not their splash vs Air and whatnot, it's the fact they give you vision of the Zerg!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60959
Read that FE on neo-gen PvZ (not quite neo gen anymore, but it's points are what matters!) and you will instantly be able to see the similarities between Voids in their current form and the Corsair in PvZ
However, you are quite right in saying that Void Rays are not effective en masse whereas the Corsair is. That's just the way things turned out - but individually early on in small numbers is where the real threat of the Void ray lies. Phoenix can be massed if necessary from 2 stargate as an equivalent to Corsairs (corsair suck vs devourers, and phoenix suck vs corruptors though).
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 07 2010 19:30 Trap wrote:
I'm aware you arn't making void rays to do significant damage Plexa. But you don't have an answer to mass roach hydra after making 2 void rays; it delays the rest of the tech you need to survive too much. Most zergs morph an overseer and constantly attempt to changeling into your base right after lair. Cannons are not sufficient to stop mass hydra roach because zerg can always know how many cannons you have, whereas it is extremely difficult to figure out how many hydra-roach your opponent has even with obs. In the meantime they have covered the path to your base with creep, and a DT followup right after stargate is suicide because what you need is collosus. I'm not saying void ray is "illegitimate" it's just a very risky build banking on the zerg opening spire, 1 queen, heavy roaches, and from my experience vs the top EU players (orly, mardow, etc) it's not as successful as the 1 gate forge FE or any variant of a lair timing push.
Fair enough. I still think you are slightly over exaggerating the extent to which you are behind. Although you do have a point. After the 1gate harass if the Zerg hasn't committed extra defenses or extra lings I would tend not to make the Void since the Zerg will be more than prepared for it and have a booming economy while you've pointlessly delayed yours. However, if you are able to get some damage off then I'm 100% for making Voids.
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On April 07 2010 19:32 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 19:20 Paladia wrote:On April 07 2010 18:10 Plexa wrote:
Void Rays are amazing. They are not a cheesy unit and they will become the most important unit in the Protoss arsenal years down the track. They are the new corsair imo, since they play a similar role to them (harass but moreso, scouting) and are valid in every matchup. Truly a wonder unit. I've watched hundreds of top level games and I've never seen it be anything but a gimmick. Claiming that "it's the new corsair its just that you nor anyone else cant see it but I can" really feels like the emperors new clothes. Corsair is used in masses pretty much every game (pvz), I've not seen one single game where void rays have been used in mass. If you are going to do such a bold claim, I'd expect it to come with an abundance of evidence, instead, you provide none. Show us some top tournament level games where it is used as much as corsair is in any random SC1 PvZ game. You don't understand why Corsair are useful in PvZ it's not their splash vs Air and whatnot, it's the fact they give you vision of the Zerg! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60959Read that FE on neo-gen PvZ (not quite neo gen anymore, but it's points are what matters!) and you will instantly be able to see the similarities between Voids in their current form and the Corsair in PvZ However, you are quite right in saying that Void Rays are not effective en masse whereas the Corsair is. That's just the way things turned out - but individually early on in small numbers is where the real threat of the Void ray lies. Phoenix can be massed if necessary from 2 stargate as an equivalent to Corsairs (corsair suck vs devourers, and phoenix suck vs corruptors though). Well, if it wasn't for their damage Corsairs were used, why would you ever make more than one of them? And why wouldn't you make an observer if you wanted vision, instead of investing hundreds of minerals and gas into a void ray?
Right now, making a void ray isn't a bad idea per se, since if you are lucky the Zerg could be unprepared and you can do enough damage to win the game right there, however, that's hardly a reliable thing to go for. None the less, if the Protoss air was more attractive (such as Vikings and Banshees are), it would be more plausable to go for the Stargate anyway.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 07 2010 20:26 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 19:32 Plexa wrote:On April 07 2010 19:20 Paladia wrote:On April 07 2010 18:10 Plexa wrote:
Void Rays are amazing. They are not a cheesy unit and they will become the most important unit in the Protoss arsenal years down the track. They are the new corsair imo, since they play a similar role to them (harass but moreso, scouting) and are valid in every matchup. Truly a wonder unit. I've watched hundreds of top level games and I've never seen it be anything but a gimmick. Claiming that "it's the new corsair its just that you nor anyone else cant see it but I can" really feels like the emperors new clothes. Corsair is used in masses pretty much every game (pvz), I've not seen one single game where void rays have been used in mass. If you are going to do such a bold claim, I'd expect it to come with an abundance of evidence, instead, you provide none. Show us some top tournament level games where it is used as much as corsair is in any random SC1 PvZ game. You don't understand why Corsair are useful in PvZ it's not their splash vs Air and whatnot, it's the fact they give you vision of the Zerg! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60959Read that FE on neo-gen PvZ (not quite neo gen anymore, but it's points are what matters!) and you will instantly be able to see the similarities between Voids in their current form and the Corsair in PvZ However, you are quite right in saying that Void Rays are not effective en masse whereas the Corsair is. That's just the way things turned out - but individually early on in small numbers is where the real threat of the Void ray lies. Phoenix can be massed if necessary from 2 stargate as an equivalent to Corsairs (corsair suck vs devourers, and phoenix suck vs corruptors though). Well, if it wasn't for their damage Corsairs were used, why would you ever make more than one of them? And why wouldn't you make an observer if you wanted vision, instead of investing hundreds of minerals and gas into a void ray? Right now, making a void ray isn't a bad idea per se, since if you are lucky the Zerg could be unprepared and you can do enough damage to win the game right there, however, that's hardly a reliable thing to go for. None the less, if the Protoss air was more attractive (such as Vikings and Banshees are), it would be more plausable to go for the Stargate anyway. Void Rays do damage differently to Corsairs. 2 or 3 Voids are capable of taking down greedy expansions and are just as good at assassinating overlords as corsairs are (arguably better). Furthermore, they're just generally good at being annoying.
Incidentally, this is a good example of what I mean when using Void Rays vs Zerg from Leg vs Glade.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/GLaDe_Leg_G5.sc2replay
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Hopefully, if this patch 8 is true, void rays are more viable now as supporting units for attacks.
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On April 08 2010 03:31 Spartan wrote:
Hopefully, if this patch 8 is true, void rays are more viable now as supporting units for attacks.
But it's also not as good as taking out buildings/massive-armored units. God...blizzard has this fetish for nerfing Protoss.
EDIT: after looking more at the patch, I realized that void rays were actually buffed for the most part. They were really only nerfed in mineral cost (which isn't too bad) and the reduction of armor.
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Puzzled by the void-ray changes, but i'll play around with them before i say anything else.
Still feel that protoss air isn't up to par compared to terran and zerg, but i'm not too bothered by carriers and mothership being a POS, given their location at the end of our least used tech tree.
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The Void Ray change doesn't affect the Mutalisk harass. They're WAY too expensive and WAY too slow to be massed, etc etc etc etc..... Same problem. Mass Muta will still be insanely effective. Bah.
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If Phoenix got a build time reduction, it might be able to keep up if you scout the Muta harass. You could transition into Patch 8 Void Ray rather easily to at least provide decent ground support, should he decide to tech switch.
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On April 08 2010 04:36 Spaylz wrote:
The Void Ray change doesn't affect the Mutalisk harass. They're WAY too expensive and WAY too slow to be massed, etc etc etc etc..... Same problem. Mass Muta will still be insanely effective. Bah.
The VR-change could IMHo greatly affect the strength of fast Muta-Techswitches in PvZ, because:
- VR can now be used on a more solid/standard build and not only as basically an all-in rush that has to kill off hatches to be cost-effective and if not, you'll loose in the long run.
- VR's can be used to better hold off early roach/ling-attacks.
---> Therefore it's more viable to go for a stargate because you don't invest into sth that will cost you the game if the opponent scouts it and reacts properly.
---> This gives the Protoss the chance to implement a Stargate into a solid PvZ-build and help him to effectively use Phoenix when you are facing a fast techswitch to Mutas,
Mutas only were as good as they are because Protoss had to suddenly switch to another army-composition and robo for example, couldn't provide any anti-air. If you now go for a Stargate to harrass with Pheonix and Vr's, you'll have another building that can help out when the Z is switching to Mutas.
It also makes Fe'ing with Protoss a better option, because it was a real problem for P not being able to harrass/scout properly when going for a Fast-Expansion. You can't just sit in your base not knowing what the Z is up to, but if you went for Phoenix/Vr's, you could've easily lost against a roach/ling-timing-attack and against that, the new VR seems to be much better than the old one.
I just love this small change and it could affect PvZ to a great deal and it could allow much more versatility in builds.
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Whoa... You really believe that ? I mean, you do realize Void Rays are slow as shit and they take forever to even start attacking, and they take even longer to deal real damage ?
I don't think this will change much. But seeing is believing, we'll see in due time.
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On April 08 2010 03:32 Ryuu314 wrote:
EDIT: after looking more at the patch, I realized that void rays were actually buffed for the most part. They were really only nerfed in mineral cost (which isn't too bad) and the reduction of armor.
Looking at the numbers, void rays mostly just got rebalanced to be less extreme before they're charged.
The two big changes are:
1) that they do more than double their old damage against non-armoured units with no charge (i.e. 1/3 beams)
2) They do less than half their old damage against armour with 1 charge (i.e. 2/3 beams), and 1/6th less damage with no charge.
Fully charged, they do more damage period - they'll still burn your base down very fast, and it looks like the rewards for microing them are higher.
While charging, they do more damage to light, and less to armored. Cutting out the middle level will also make them much easier to micro.
As a wtf: It's just struck me that they don't have any armour now but still have the "armored" unit type
I'm going to be really interested to see how this actually plays. It seems like harassing bases will be toned down, as the enemy will take a lot less damage if they can drive the VRs off, but if you catch the opponent without AA, they'll still lose their base very fast.
If anyone gets a chance, I'd love to know whether 2 queens can still kill two void rays.
Also, assuming it still takes 14 ticks to get a charge, that's only 70 damage now against an armoured target, so a hallucinated colossus should charge 2 voidrays - food for thought.
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For me it is ok as it is. People should learn to use the phoenix properly, and realize that the ray can be used instead of the inmortal, like you go inmortal>collossi or ray>mothership as a viable tier 3 progression. They are mainly support units, you will still need zealot legs and ht later.
I am more concerned on how much the dt suck.
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I finally got to experiment some with phoenixes today and I enjoyed it. I think that Protoss air is not lacking really, now that I have gotten a chance to play around with them a bit, but rather they are situational. They only work in certain cases and in other cases they get decimated. I think once people get decent with the phoenixes they may be used some more with their gravity what-cha-ma-call-it. As a Protoss player, I can respect the lack of air and appreciate the situations I get to use them in.
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The point is that, even if you scout your competent opponent and know they're going Mutas, you must cede map control. That's not right.
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On April 08 2010 13:23 coltrane wrote:
For me it is ok as it is. People should learn to use the phoenix properly, and realize that the ray can be used instead of the inmortal, like you go inmortal>collossi or ray>mothership as a viable tier 3 progression.
Feel free to link a replay of this because i have no idea how you can compre the immortal and colossus to those two god-awful air units. Let's forget for a moment that we want the robo anyhow for observers. Let's also forget that the price of the mothership is absurd and the build time is nearly 3 mins. JUST consider the damage potential vs. cost. Unless your opponent is massing air, there's frankly almost no situation where those air units are worth more.
Even when air units are the name of the game, you'd get much better damage per resource spent making a bunch of blink stalkers and sentries to go along with your phoenix. Our air units are not a viable alternateive to robo in standard play. Hell, I find myself using dark templar MUCH more often than the mothership or void rays just because they're neay map-control units for late-game.
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I wish we could just abandon Broodwar based thoughts all together. I hate seeing people ask for Corsairs and Vultures to come back. Lets move beyond them and accept that this is a new game.
If we embraced that kind of thinking we'd have never got units like the Sentry.
If one wants Broodwar one should go play Broodwar.
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so we should remoev marines zealots and zergligns too?
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The Antigrav AtG nonmassive sounds like a great idea to test. I say give it a go.
On the other hand, the toss in me really wants to see a powerful but expensive ship (maybe like scout with upgradable splash) and a neat ability to keep it useful.
The air units in this game don't seem all that well thought out IMO. Hope everything gets sorted out cause they all have lots of potential.
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With patch 8 and the increased void ray cost Protoss air only got weaker, in my opinion.
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EPT
