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okay so so im kinda sad atm since i didnt win a contest for a beta key [just found out a few minutes ago ] but after seeing the winner i realized two things
1) the winners entry blew everyone elses out of the water [ i really liked the unit ideas and hope blizzard reads them] so i basically had no chance from the start, its here http://vilegaming.com/forums/topics/23164/savant_pestilisk_condor [im quite embarrassed of my entry tbh, haha]
2) TOSS AIR UNITS SUCK
[ for anyone wondering ,the contest and the winners entry along with other good entries is here http://vilegaming.com/page/510 we were supposed to come up with new unit ideas for sc2 ]
note; im playing off a friends key and can only play a few hours day since hes always on and i play zerg
ive come to realize that the vast majority of protoss players dont rely on their air units much at all. the key cheap and staple air units for protoss are obviously the void ray and phoenix, but i still dont see them used much except for void ray rushes. i rarely see toss players send an ground/air combination attack with void rays [ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray ] and phoenixes [ http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Phoenix ].
the void rays attack is very powerful within a few seconds sure, but in decent sized war between 2 armies theyre kinda useless [from what ive seen]. yes i know their attacks power continues on from each unit to the next, but there is still a quick delay between switching targets and that will happen a lot as units in large wars die quickly. and since they die quickly that means it takes longer for void rays to power up, even if slightly. good players will use them to target the enemies key units but more often than not they get targeted right back and raped.
now we have phoenixes. their AA attack is rather weak in general [ about 10 base dmg]. ive seen good players use their graviton beam quite well, but from what i see its energy cost is too high for it to be used more often [picking out the enemies key units]
for comparison purposes, the zerg has the mutalisk which attacks both ground and air and harasses really well AND its one unit so its versatile. i know weve all seen just how destructive a muta mass can be. terran has the banshee and reaper which attack only ground OR air respectively, and do great deals of damage each.
so basically i think protoss needs another air unit. blizzard can go 3 ways with this....
a) a caster support unit. apparently they had one but was scrapped http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/units/stasis-orb
whats cool about that unit is its ability though
b) or a pure air to ground damage unit to keep up with the other races.
c) give us back the scout or corsair [with its dweb ability]
Poll: what should change?
(Vote): caster unit
(Vote): pure ATG unit
(Vote): bring scout or corsair
i dont know, im kinda babbling now, haha. i just really dont see toss air used much out of the games ive played and tons of streams ive watched. i have seen a lot of people complaining about toss' lack of anti air though 
what do you guys think protoss needs for air support, if anything?
[ btw thought this unit was also really interesting http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/units/escort ]
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i want my disruption webs back! :D this may just be me, but i actually see void rays used 50% of the time. o_o
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If Protoss gained an air to ground unit, it would either have to be really creative and different, or it would be just like the Banshee.
Protoss and Terran are looking pretty similar in SC2 as it is.
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explain yourself. i dont really see any glaring similarities at all.
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can we get the old carrier back too while we're at it?
Protoss air units just suck in general, it's insulting
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Give the Phoenix splash damage like the corsair, and most of Toss's AA problems will be solved.
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Colossus is barely not an air unit anyway.
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protoss have the only unit that every thing can attack, the weekest air, by golly, if they let the collossus attack air with its sweep i whould be happy (we all know colossus needs imporvement. also, protoss has the least selection of air in my mind. by golly, it's like blizzard wants protoss to be week and vonarable. aren't they soposed to be the most advanced race. the zerg seem to be wiser then the protoss and protoss can teleport!!!
for that mater, if protoss could worp in air units like they can ground troops, that whould help alot!
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We have GtA units in abundance...
Stalker, sentry, high templar are nice vs. those with energy and swarms of mutas (takes some micro to be effective at storming them) although HT have probably been nerfed to the point there more-so useful for feedback.
Compare that to terran marines, thors, and ghosts or zerg hydras and queens. We have the GtA options, at least as many as other races do. The problem is our Air units are very niche role oriented.
Both of our pre-fleet beacon air units are better at base and ground unit harassment than true fleet-battle scenarios. This MIGHT be understandable if the carrier in small numbers, or the mothership by itself, was a suitable source of air superiority, but right now a terran or zerg can achieve air control over a toss without sacrificing enough ground control that their base is in eminent danger. That is the reason viking/banshee is very effective in TvP (we'd probably see a lot more of that if marauders were not so amazing against all P ground units). It is also the reason that zerg air can completely contain the protoss on several maps and if allowed to reach t3 (brood lords and lots of corrupters with mutas) there is just no stopping them.
I don't so-much consider zerg air a problem anymore with the buff to stalker base damage (although if more PvZ's went into t3, this could come up more often), but the issue with PvT air is very problematic right now, as our inability to go AtG leaves us wide-open to marauder massing in game after game.
Honestly, I think the solution is rather simple (make the ray a true AtG UNIT KILLER and not some weird building-buster), but i'd also like to see carriers and the mothership get another look. They're pretty embarassing units for the tip-end of t3 themselves, espcially the mothership, compared to brood lords, BC's, Ravens, etc.
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Where is the option for "Nothing should be changed"?
Protoss have plenty of air power. Just because it isn't being used doesn't mean it isn't good. Dick around with the protoss air and see what you come up with.
Also, note that the phoenix is 10 x 2 base damage, not just 10. It's not bad at all and with it's gravity-lift ability lets it snipe key units during battles (Or raids. Queen sniping while overlord hunting really hurts the zerg macro)
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Buff Carriers, IMO. I mean, after all, Mass Carriers should equal instant win, right (lol...)? But it does seem like Protoss air is lacking. I hardly ever use Druid of the TalonsPhoenixs, and only use Void Rays to cheese people.
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Carriers kinda need a buff right now. Carriers need to be a late game last resort like how PvT was in sc1. Everything just seems to tear through carriers in sc2. Maybe in PvP carriers might be viable.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Bring back the Tempest!!
Nah Protoss air is alright at the moment imo. Phoenix are a ridiculously cool unit, Void Rays have their place and Carriers are Carriers. Only issue with Protoss air atm is with the Mothership - i'd like to see a air caster given to Protoss other than that I'm pretty happy.
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Toss air is fine, like..seriously, your void rays are useful, pheonixes are very useful, carriers are good in some situations and the mothership is just lol.
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Protoss air is really strong, it does not need any buffs
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I think Colossus already kind of fills the ATG role in SC2. It does great ground damage and can scale cliffs, giving it nearly the mobility of an air unit.
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Protoss air is fine, people just don't know how to use Phoenix. I barely ever encounter them, but when I've played against toss who use Phoenix and anti-grav well, they are very very annoying. An air superiority fighter that is faster than mutas... tell me what's wrong with that?
I don't think Void Ray or Carrier really needs any comment... their roles are pretty easy to see and they are both used quite often to great effect.
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mhmm... I feel like Protoss lacks a Air-Unit that does good DMG to a variety of targets (not like Voidray which can sometimes deal huge amounts of DMG and against certain Units just totally suck). Because as of now, you could go for Stargates but just for either counter other air-units or to go for some kind of cheese.
It's really hard to go for a starport and have a longterm-build planned that keeps using the stargate.
Lets say Protoss fights against Zerg and compare it to Air-Units from the starport of the Terrans when fighting against Zerg.
Vikings and Phoenix could both be used to harrass Overlords, to scout and harrass drones etc. - so far, so good. Now what can Protoss build after that? Carriers aren't really an option and they get out way too late compared to Medivacs, which Terran can use in every matchup and Ravens, which are a good lategame-unit against Zerg. Voidrays are also just good if you surprise your opponent, so not a good choice for a standard-build that incorporates a Stargate.
It's also very hard to win with a stargate just for a few phoenix harrassing overlords and scouting around, when facing against a mass-roach-push or a Zerg just massing drones and Units like crazy. You really can't affort funny stuff like the Phoenix or Voidray, if you don't plan to win with some sort of cheese allin-move.
Protoss therefore needs a Stargate-Unit that is either a viable support-Unit or that does a good amaount of DMG. Sth like an Arbiter from SC1, Ravens or a banshee or maybe change sth about the phoenix or the stargate itself so you could afford it and not loose to some sort of mass-roaches. Starport is just not an option right now, even if many builds could use a Phoenix scouting around and killing overlords, you just loose against Mass-Ground-Units. Protoss is also the only Race that has no Air-Unit that is good at countering big Units like the collossus or heavy air-Units like Battlecruisers or Carriers (Z has Corruptors and T has Vikings).
But it's definitely true that there is sth wrong with Protoss-Air-Units and Blizz should change sth there. I really miss sth like an Arbiter (okay, Warpprism is kinda the new Aribter if you want sth like a recall. ^^') or Corsairs, that always worked against Z. You could even build a stargate just for a handfull of corsairs for scouting and killing a few overlords without the opponent going for Mutas. In SC2, you won't get away with that and get run over by Zerg just massing up roaches, zerglings or Hydras...
It's just sth very strange about SC2 I can't really put my finger on that makes it all about massing Units... Maybe it's just the Metagame or the rock-paper-scissor-gameplay, the non-existing highground-advantage, too weak static defense and too strong Tier1-Units...? ^^'
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On April 05 2010 16:03 Plexa wrote:
Bring back the Tempest!!
Nah Protoss air is alright at the moment imo. Phoenix are a ridiculously cool unit, Void Rays have their place and Carriers are Carriers. Only issue with Protoss air atm is with the Mothership - i'd like to see a air caster given to Protoss other than that I'm pretty happy.
I was actually going to suggest that as a serious idea!
Bring back the tempest! Have it function as a light-carrier that can only attack ground units. That whole extra-armor-vs-ground-attacks idea was cool as well.
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EPT
