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I think the answer is really simple. Bring back the ability Phoenix had in Alpha to AOE units around it (Overload? I forget the exact name). To balance it versus Mutalisks, give it a cap of 6 targets per Phoenix. Targets cannot overlap among multiple Phoenix.
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I want the arbitor back, mother ship sucks now that it has been nerfed into the ground, just remove it and bring back the arbitor
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Looking at the guy's units, I think SC2 is turning too much into a spell-caster battle like WC3. Imo, they should add more bread and butter attack units, (SC1 --> goons, hydras, marines) into SC2. This makes the game much less like WC3 and promote big, macro-based slugfests which are so characteristic of the Korean progaming scene.
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On April 07 2010 06:02 SichuanPanda wrote:
I think the answer is really simple. Bring back the ability Phoenix had in Alpha to AOE units around it (Overload? I forget the exact name). To balance it versus Mutalisks, give it a cap of 6 targets per Phoenix. Targets cannot overlap among multiple Phoenix.
I don't think that would make Stargate a viable option in a standard-game, because especially against Z using Mutas, Phoenix are a good choice anyways. Protoss needs a midgame Flying Unit that is either a good supporter or does good ground-dmg or sth so that the Stargate can be used not only to counter other Air-Units or to rush for voidrays and win in the cheesiest way possible. ^^'
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I think phoenix would be far more interesting to use if they had an instant attack speed weapon that dealt twice the damage but had twice the cooldown of their current attack.
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On April 07 2010 03:27 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 20:20 Spaylz wrote:On April 06 2010 05:05 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 06 2010 01:54 Spaylz wrote:On April 06 2010 01:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 06 2010 00:54 Spaylz wrote:
The only thing wrong with Protoss air is Phoenixes. It makes me laugh when people say they are useful. THEY'RE WORTHLESS, COME ON. None of you have ever played a PvZ where the Z goes mass Muta. It's unbeatable. You can't go Phoenix because Mutas will eat them up as soon as there are more than 10 of them, you can't go Void Rays because their attack is too slow, you can't go Carrier because you will have lost by the time you even get one and you can't properly defend your base and your expand from the harass with Stalkers because Mutas are too damn fast, even if you get Blink.
Phoenixes need some AoE to counter Mutalisks. I've lost to so many Zergs that just do Mutalisks in massive amounts and don't do anything else. Cannons don't counter the harass either, and they can get out of a Storm very easily too thanks to their speed. Protoss need something to deal with them. You're probably some copper league scrub if you think Mutas are unbeatable and Phoenix are worthless. With the stalker buff, stalkers+sentries and maybe 1 or 2 cannons at your mineral lines are all the anti-muta you will ever need. Phoenix absolutely rape muta in 2:3 ratios with good micro/focus firing. Obviously if you only build like 4-5 Phoenix for early harass and expect it to kill 10 mutas you're dreaming. They're different from BW sairs in that you only need like 6 sairs to deal with practically any amount of mutas zerg throws at you. Not so in SC2. Get that in your mind. Learn it. Phoenix don't have splash so you need to produce a larger amount of them. Also, Phoenix AG skill is ridiculous in terms of base harassment and they're also quite useful in battles. It basically takes X units out of the battle where X is the number of Phoenix you have. The only issue I have with mutas is when they use them in combination with mass zerglings or hydras. It's kinda ridiculous imo how many mutas and zerglings they can produce off just 2 bases. Ok man. I never said I expected 5 Phoenixes to kill 10 Mutas. 10 Phoenixes will indeed rape 10 Mutalisks, but any fight involving a higher and equal amount of both those units will result in Mutalisks raping Phoenixes because of the bounce. You CAN'T counter the harass with 2 cannons and a few Stalkers man, get fucking real. A Zerg will come with like 12 Mutalisks and will kill 20 probes before you kill like 5 Mutalisks. Even if you manage to hang in there while he's harassing, the Zerg can still do whatever he wants meanwhile. Not to mention, as it was pointed out before, Phoenix cost 150/100 while Mutalisks cost 100/100 except they can attack ground and a Stargate is not necesseraly part of any real build (yet). And don't tell me Phoenixes can do that also with the gravity spell, because it's just not comparable with Mutalisks. "The only issue I have with mutas is when they use them in combination with mass zerglings or hydras. It's kinda ridiculous imo how many mutas and zerglings they can produce off just 2 bases." That was kind of implied, since I said that while he's harassing you and you're struggling to counter said harass, the Zerg can expand all he wants or can produce an insane amount of unit by pumping on his two bases. A production you will never match by replacing the probes you lost to the harass and going back and forth with your Stalkers to defend both your mineral lines. Because once again NO, 2 cannons and 5 Stalkers will never fend off 10 Mutalisks before they get a chance to destroy a butload of probes. So please, next time you try to argue with me, don't call me a scrub and don't throw your annoying frustration my way. First off, what do you mean by higher and equal? You said 10 phoenix will rape 10 mutas so...what? Go youtube the 100 phoenix v. 100 muta video. Phoenix win by a long shot. As long as you maintain a decent ratio of phoenix to muta, phoenix will always come out on top with micro. And yes, I agree with you that Phoenix cost more and build slower than Mutas. Which is why I never said you had to counter mutas with only phoenix. And don't say AG is a useless spell or that it's not comparable with mutas or w/e. Watch orb's streams. He uses phoenix AG to a rather great success. Now, I'm not saying that making Phoenix will win you the game every time. In fact, massing phoenix will probably get you steamrolled. What I am saying though, is that Phoenix are not worthless as you say they are. They just need to be used properly in moderation. Also, you're not supposed to hold off 10 mutas with 2 cannons and 5 stalkers. Just look at resource cost. 10 mutas (1000 min and 1000 gas) cost way more than 2 cannons and 5 stalkers (925 minerals 125 gas). Of course the 2 cannons and 5 stalkers are going to lose. Are you kidding me? You're supposed to get more than just 5 stalkers if you see zerg investing heavily in muta. You need something like 2 stalkers for every 3 mutas they bring. Also, you conveniently ignored the fact that I said cannons, stalkers and sentries. Sentries guardian shield basically nullifies muta bounce attack. They are pretty dam good versus muta. How do I know this? Because I've done it, and other players much better than I have done it. It's very possible and easy to hold off muta harass with cannons stalkers and sentries. Actually try it before saying it's impossible. And when I say try it I don't mean trying to kill 10 mutas with 5 stalkers; that's ridiculous. @Grim Reaper: I'm pretty darn sure it's the other way around. Phoenix are faster than muta... ....... I can't get enough of people that bring up that ridiculous video in an argument like this. You really believe this is relevant ? How does it help to know that 100 Phoenixes will kill 100 Mutas ? Will you ever be able to reproduce that pattern in a normal game ? No. There are dozens of other factors happening in a game that makes this video completely irrelevant. Oh ! I also saw a video of an Ultralisk killing 800 Zerglings. You seen an Ultralisk in a high level game lately ? So please... By higher and equal, I mean 12+ of each unit, that's about the amount where the bounce becomes too harsh for the Phoenixes to handle. Also, I watch orb's stream everyday and I haven't seen him use a Phoenix even once. You can't match the Zerg's amount of Mutalisks with your Phoenixes, because the build time is relatively the same, except once his Spire is up he will be producing them on 4 or even 8 larvas while you're stuck on your one or maybe two Stargates. And due to the Phoenix's cost, your Stalker production is set back aswell. "Just look at resource cost. 10 mutas (1000 min and 1000 gas) cost way more than 2 cannons and 5 stalkers (925 minerals 125 gas)" Great math skills there. Stalker is 50 gas, not 25. Doesn't change much tho, I give you that. Eventhough, I find it ridiculous that in order to counter one unit, you have to mass up two (or even three if you add Phoenixes to the Stalkers and Sentries) yourself + add cannons. That's the Marauder issue all over again... But I digress. I would appreciate if you stopped giving me attitude too. I say it's very tough to counter Muta harass because I played against it myself, and I failed. Maybe it's a level matter, I ain't saying I'm pro, but I'm not the only one having this issue. And while HasuObs and co seem to have no problem countering it, I myself can't and I'd like to know how they do it (and I don't believe they counter it like you do) You can't secure a second base while Mutalisks are harassing, because you will never be able to mass up an army big enough to handle both bases. I've played a few games against Zerg players that harassed me like this, and I don't think I've won even one of them. It's quite a simple pattern, the Zerg expands, you can either timepush (which I hear is very deadly, haven't got a chance to try it out yet, maybe that's the counter) or you can b2 yourself. If you choose to b2 and the Zerg chooses to harass Muta, you're pretty much forced to stay within your base and dance between your b1 and b2 only to still lose a significant amount of probes while the Zerg keeps producing or expanding. Because no, you can't possibly have enough units to efficiently counter the harass on both bases by splitting your army. And I also doubt you'd have enough money to make more than 2 or 3 cannons on both also. I only brought up that video, which i know is a very pointless vid, because you talked about "higher and equal." If 100 v. 100 is not higher and equal I dont' know what is. And that's without micro, too. Just try a custom game of 12 mutas v. 12 phoenix. If the numbers are equal, phoenix will always win, especially with micro. But like you said, it's near impossible (or very stupid if you actually do) to get equal numbers of phoenix as zerg does muta. I completely and totally agree. Which is why you absolutely need sentries. Their shield ability nullifies muta bounce almost completely, making the fight extremely favored towards phoenix. And you're right. Orb hasn't been using phoenix much lately, I believe he's focusing more on sentries, but he has used them to some success in the past. And while you say it may be unfair how Protoss has to mass 2-3, even 4 units to just counter a mass of 1 units, some people on TL would argue that that's how it's supposed to be played. Is it unfair? Yes, I agree with you and think so too. But that's just the way it is (esp. in BW too I believe) and people have found ways to deal with it. Personally, whenever I see Zerg putting up a spire I either do an Immortal timing push if the distance isn't too far or I cannon up. You will always have a timing window to do something. Be it reinforcing your base or attacking or expanding. I personally feel that expanding is the worst option unless they have expanded as well. But even then I feel that it's more risky as those 400 minerals can be used for 2 cannons and an extra pylon, which is really all u need at the mineral line. Those 2 cannons will not hold off 10 mutas or even 6-7. But what it will do is buy you time. 2 cannons will pretty easily hold off the initial 3-4 mutas and you can just maynard your probes away to save them. At the very least, it'll force the Zerg to wait until they mass up more mutas before harassing you. That time can be used to mass up some sentries and stalkers so when Zerg does come knocking you can defend decently well. I don't know what kind of build or tech you generally use so perhaps that's why you dont' have enough minerals for cannons and a decent sized AA army. Perhaps you're overinvesting in zealots? Maybe you're right and cannons aren't even necessary. But they've worked okay for me and I have roughly a 50-50 win rate against zergs who go muta. So yea, it's not ideal, it's not perfect, but it's better than losing every game against zerg air. :\ Also, I'm pretty sure HasuObs, WhiteRa and all the other top protoss use a mix of stalkers+sentries to counter mutas. The reason why I build cannons is because my micro and sense of timing (as in where my stalkers+sentries need to be and when) isn't nearly as good as theirs. The cannons buy me some time to get my forces in place. More on OP's topic: is protoss air lacking and relatively weak? yes, I rather think it is, especially when compared to the air of other races. does it suck and is it "worthless"? absolutely not.
My problem with Mutalisks is not the countering part itself per say, it's the fact that they are so so much faster than Stalkers and especially Sentries that it makes it impossible to defend two bases. I personally can't handle it. And I think it would be much more viable (and it would actually makes more sense...) if Phoenix were able to handle them. The only time you'll ever use Phoenixes anyway is against Mutalisks or maybe against Banshees. It's supposed to be an anti-air unit, let it be that.
I haven't tried to FE against Zerg yet, maybe this is the answer since you'd be able to make enough Phoenixes to actually counter the Mutas, but still. Timing push might also be the answer, but it drives me kind of crazy that if you don't do that or the other, you will be doomed to stay inside your base and take the harass while the Zerg does what he wants. And I don't have a solution for that. If the Zerg expands, you have to expand aswell unless you're ready to push and he doesn't have enough units to counter you. And if you expand, you'll need units and cannons to counter the harass, and it's just gonna be a bitch either way.
I myself lost to a guy that did some weird strategy where he went mass speedlings and switch to Muta on only one base (he expanded shortly after getting his first 5-6 muta or so). When I lost, I watched the replay because I was certain there was a time where I could crush him with an Immortal push, right before he had the Mutalisks. As it turned out, I wouldn't have won even if I had attacked, he had over 20 speedlings when I had like 1 Immortal 4 zeal 1 stalker and 2 sentries. Add to that the Queen, the creep and his possiblity to pop up more lings to fend me off and I couldn't win right there. My macro and my timing certainly aren't perfect, but I don't see a winning exit for me in that kind of games.
So please, if you got replays or whatever, upload them and put them here, cause I'm dying for help since that in every high level replay I download, I don't see Zerg going mass Mutalisks.
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PvZ is very map dependent atm I think. Some maps just favor zerg mobility so much, especially mutas.
Trying to defend two bases on desert oasis or kulas ravine as protoss against zerg can be a total joke. You micro your army to your second base on the cliff to chase off the mutas only to have speedlings run into your base. Unfortunately your sentries are at your expo to fend off the mutas, so your reward is more dead probes.
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Eh, Protoss air isn't that bad. They do need a more versatile unit against ground though.
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On April 07 2010 07:14 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 03:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 06 2010 20:20 Spaylz wrote:On April 06 2010 05:05 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 06 2010 01:54 Spaylz wrote:On April 06 2010 01:40 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 06 2010 00:54 Spaylz wrote:
The only thing wrong with Protoss air is Phoenixes. It makes me laugh when people say they are useful. THEY'RE WORTHLESS, COME ON. None of you have ever played a PvZ where the Z goes mass Muta. It's unbeatable. You can't go Phoenix because Mutas will eat them up as soon as there are more than 10 of them, you can't go Void Rays because their attack is too slow, you can't go Carrier because you will have lost by the time you even get one and you can't properly defend your base and your expand from the harass with Stalkers because Mutas are too damn fast, even if you get Blink.
Phoenixes need some AoE to counter Mutalisks. I've lost to so many Zergs that just do Mutalisks in massive amounts and don't do anything else. Cannons don't counter the harass either, and they can get out of a Storm very easily too thanks to their speed. Protoss need something to deal with them. You're probably some copper league scrub if you think Mutas are unbeatable and Phoenix are worthless. With the stalker buff, stalkers+sentries and maybe 1 or 2 cannons at your mineral lines are all the anti-muta you will ever need. Phoenix absolutely rape muta in 2:3 ratios with good micro/focus firing. Obviously if you only build like 4-5 Phoenix for early harass and expect it to kill 10 mutas you're dreaming. They're different from BW sairs in that you only need like 6 sairs to deal with practically any amount of mutas zerg throws at you. Not so in SC2. Get that in your mind. Learn it. Phoenix don't have splash so you need to produce a larger amount of them. Also, Phoenix AG skill is ridiculous in terms of base harassment and they're also quite useful in battles. It basically takes X units out of the battle where X is the number of Phoenix you have. The only issue I have with mutas is when they use them in combination with mass zerglings or hydras. It's kinda ridiculous imo how many mutas and zerglings they can produce off just 2 bases. Ok man. I never said I expected 5 Phoenixes to kill 10 Mutas. 10 Phoenixes will indeed rape 10 Mutalisks, but any fight involving a higher and equal amount of both those units will result in Mutalisks raping Phoenixes because of the bounce. You CAN'T counter the harass with 2 cannons and a few Stalkers man, get fucking real. A Zerg will come with like 12 Mutalisks and will kill 20 probes before you kill like 5 Mutalisks. Even if you manage to hang in there while he's harassing, the Zerg can still do whatever he wants meanwhile. Not to mention, as it was pointed out before, Phoenix cost 150/100 while Mutalisks cost 100/100 except they can attack ground and a Stargate is not necesseraly part of any real build (yet). And don't tell me Phoenixes can do that also with the gravity spell, because it's just not comparable with Mutalisks. "The only issue I have with mutas is when they use them in combination with mass zerglings or hydras. It's kinda ridiculous imo how many mutas and zerglings they can produce off just 2 bases." That was kind of implied, since I said that while he's harassing you and you're struggling to counter said harass, the Zerg can expand all he wants or can produce an insane amount of unit by pumping on his two bases. A production you will never match by replacing the probes you lost to the harass and going back and forth with your Stalkers to defend both your mineral lines. Because once again NO, 2 cannons and 5 Stalkers will never fend off 10 Mutalisks before they get a chance to destroy a butload of probes. So please, next time you try to argue with me, don't call me a scrub and don't throw your annoying frustration my way. First off, what do you mean by higher and equal? You said 10 phoenix will rape 10 mutas so...what? Go youtube the 100 phoenix v. 100 muta video. Phoenix win by a long shot. As long as you maintain a decent ratio of phoenix to muta, phoenix will always come out on top with micro. And yes, I agree with you that Phoenix cost more and build slower than Mutas. Which is why I never said you had to counter mutas with only phoenix. And don't say AG is a useless spell or that it's not comparable with mutas or w/e. Watch orb's streams. He uses phoenix AG to a rather great success. Now, I'm not saying that making Phoenix will win you the game every time. In fact, massing phoenix will probably get you steamrolled. What I am saying though, is that Phoenix are not worthless as you say they are. They just need to be used properly in moderation. Also, you're not supposed to hold off 10 mutas with 2 cannons and 5 stalkers. Just look at resource cost. 10 mutas (1000 min and 1000 gas) cost way more than 2 cannons and 5 stalkers (925 minerals 125 gas). Of course the 2 cannons and 5 stalkers are going to lose. Are you kidding me? You're supposed to get more than just 5 stalkers if you see zerg investing heavily in muta. You need something like 2 stalkers for every 3 mutas they bring. Also, you conveniently ignored the fact that I said cannons, stalkers and sentries. Sentries guardian shield basically nullifies muta bounce attack. They are pretty dam good versus muta. How do I know this? Because I've done it, and other players much better than I have done it. It's very possible and easy to hold off muta harass with cannons stalkers and sentries. Actually try it before saying it's impossible. And when I say try it I don't mean trying to kill 10 mutas with 5 stalkers; that's ridiculous. @Grim Reaper: I'm pretty darn sure it's the other way around. Phoenix are faster than muta... ....... I can't get enough of people that bring up that ridiculous video in an argument like this. You really believe this is relevant ? How does it help to know that 100 Phoenixes will kill 100 Mutas ? Will you ever be able to reproduce that pattern in a normal game ? No. There are dozens of other factors happening in a game that makes this video completely irrelevant. Oh ! I also saw a video of an Ultralisk killing 800 Zerglings. You seen an Ultralisk in a high level game lately ? So please... By higher and equal, I mean 12+ of each unit, that's about the amount where the bounce becomes too harsh for the Phoenixes to handle. Also, I watch orb's stream everyday and I haven't seen him use a Phoenix even once. You can't match the Zerg's amount of Mutalisks with your Phoenixes, because the build time is relatively the same, except once his Spire is up he will be producing them on 4 or even 8 larvas while you're stuck on your one or maybe two Stargates. And due to the Phoenix's cost, your Stalker production is set back aswell. "Just look at resource cost. 10 mutas (1000 min and 1000 gas) cost way more than 2 cannons and 5 stalkers (925 minerals 125 gas)" Great math skills there. Stalker is 50 gas, not 25. Doesn't change much tho, I give you that. Eventhough, I find it ridiculous that in order to counter one unit, you have to mass up two (or even three if you add Phoenixes to the Stalkers and Sentries) yourself + add cannons. That's the Marauder issue all over again... But I digress. I would appreciate if you stopped giving me attitude too. I say it's very tough to counter Muta harass because I played against it myself, and I failed. Maybe it's a level matter, I ain't saying I'm pro, but I'm not the only one having this issue. And while HasuObs and co seem to have no problem countering it, I myself can't and I'd like to know how they do it (and I don't believe they counter it like you do) You can't secure a second base while Mutalisks are harassing, because you will never be able to mass up an army big enough to handle both bases. I've played a few games against Zerg players that harassed me like this, and I don't think I've won even one of them. It's quite a simple pattern, the Zerg expands, you can either timepush (which I hear is very deadly, haven't got a chance to try it out yet, maybe that's the counter) or you can b2 yourself. If you choose to b2 and the Zerg chooses to harass Muta, you're pretty much forced to stay within your base and dance between your b1 and b2 only to still lose a significant amount of probes while the Zerg keeps producing or expanding. Because no, you can't possibly have enough units to efficiently counter the harass on both bases by splitting your army. And I also doubt you'd have enough money to make more than 2 or 3 cannons on both also. I only brought up that video, which i know is a very pointless vid, because you talked about "higher and equal." If 100 v. 100 is not higher and equal I dont' know what is. And that's without micro, too. Just try a custom game of 12 mutas v. 12 phoenix. If the numbers are equal, phoenix will always win, especially with micro. But like you said, it's near impossible (or very stupid if you actually do) to get equal numbers of phoenix as zerg does muta. I completely and totally agree. Which is why you absolutely need sentries. Their shield ability nullifies muta bounce almost completely, making the fight extremely favored towards phoenix. And you're right. Orb hasn't been using phoenix much lately, I believe he's focusing more on sentries, but he has used them to some success in the past. And while you say it may be unfair how Protoss has to mass 2-3, even 4 units to just counter a mass of 1 units, some people on TL would argue that that's how it's supposed to be played. Is it unfair? Yes, I agree with you and think so too. But that's just the way it is (esp. in BW too I believe) and people have found ways to deal with it. Personally, whenever I see Zerg putting up a spire I either do an Immortal timing push if the distance isn't too far or I cannon up. You will always have a timing window to do something. Be it reinforcing your base or attacking or expanding. I personally feel that expanding is the worst option unless they have expanded as well. But even then I feel that it's more risky as those 400 minerals can be used for 2 cannons and an extra pylon, which is really all u need at the mineral line. Those 2 cannons will not hold off 10 mutas or even 6-7. But what it will do is buy you time. 2 cannons will pretty easily hold off the initial 3-4 mutas and you can just maynard your probes away to save them. At the very least, it'll force the Zerg to wait until they mass up more mutas before harassing you. That time can be used to mass up some sentries and stalkers so when Zerg does come knocking you can defend decently well. I don't know what kind of build or tech you generally use so perhaps that's why you dont' have enough minerals for cannons and a decent sized AA army. Perhaps you're overinvesting in zealots? Maybe you're right and cannons aren't even necessary. But they've worked okay for me and I have roughly a 50-50 win rate against zergs who go muta. So yea, it's not ideal, it's not perfect, but it's better than losing every game against zerg air. :\ Also, I'm pretty sure HasuObs, WhiteRa and all the other top protoss use a mix of stalkers+sentries to counter mutas. The reason why I build cannons is because my micro and sense of timing (as in where my stalkers+sentries need to be and when) isn't nearly as good as theirs. The cannons buy me some time to get my forces in place. More on OP's topic: is protoss air lacking and relatively weak? yes, I rather think it is, especially when compared to the air of other races. does it suck and is it "worthless"? absolutely not. My problem with Mutalisks is not the countering part itself per say, it's the fact that they are so so much faster than Stalkers and especially Sentries that it makes it impossible to defend two bases. I personally can't handle it. And I think it would be much more viable (and it would actually makes more sense...) if Phoenix were able to handle them. The only time you'll ever use Phoenixes anyway is against Mutalisks or maybe against Banshees. It's supposed to be an anti-air unit, let it be that. I haven't tried to FE against Zerg yet, maybe this is the answer since you'd be able to make enough Phoenixes to actually counter the Mutas, but still. Timing push might also be the answer, but it drives me kind of crazy that if you don't do that or the other, you will be doomed to stay inside your base and take the harass while the Zerg does what he wants. And I don't have a solution for that. If the Zerg expands, you have to expand aswell unless you're ready to push and he doesn't have enough units to counter you. And if you expand, you'll need units and cannons to counter the harass, and it's just gonna be a bitch either way. I myself lost to a guy that did some weird strategy where he went mass speedlings and switch to Muta on only one base (he expanded shortly after getting his first 5-6 muta or so). When I lost, I watched the replay because I was certain there was a time where I could crush him with an Immortal push, right before he had the Mutalisks. As it turned out, I wouldn't have won even if I had attacked, he had over 20 speedlings when I had like 1 Immortal 4 zeal 1 stalker and 2 sentries. Add to that the Queen, the creep and his possiblity to pop up more lings to fend me off and I couldn't win right there. My macro and my timing certainly aren't perfect, but I don't see a winning exit for me in that kind of games. So please, if you got replays or whatever, upload them and put them here, cause I'm dying for help since that in every high level replay I download, I don't see Zerg going mass Mutalisks.
Regarding your timing when you could've pushed but didn't due to mass zerglings, the solution would be to get more sentries, as force field can allow you to funnel zerglings such that it's much more manageable to deal with due to lack of surround.
I'd love to discuss more with you about the PvZ muta imba but we're derailing this thread.
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On April 07 2010 06:28 L wrote:
I think phoenix would be far more interesting to use if they had an instant attack speed weapon that dealt twice the damage but had twice the cooldown of their current attack.
Hit and run overlord popping might be OP - you'd need 11 to oneshot, but 6 would still be very very scary for zerg.
I'd love to see the pheonixes graviton beam work in reverse too - push an air unit (non-massive) to the ground and incapacitate it. This would give it a much stronger synergy with ground support, as it can stop flying units fleeing the ground army. It would make pheonixes counter muta harass *hard*, while still losing to viking. It would make pheonixes hard-counter voidrays by breaking their beams, and make the fight against vikings kinda interesting.
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On April 07 2010 09:56 Spartan wrote:
Eh, Protoss air isn't that bad. They do need a more versatile unit against ground though.
what? void rays suck in combat, phoenix get shit on by everything that can attack it, minus mutas, and thats only in equalish #'s. carriers get raped by vikings and corrupters AND you cant micro then anymore, and mothership is a gimmick.
phoenix GB is pretty pimp if used right tho, too bad it sucks at doing what its supposed to do
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Gotta get back the Archon and its splash damage that what i think would really help out a ton i know you have to tech to it but still mid to late game it would really be a life saver
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ok after playing a few more games trying to use air I think I've come to this conclusion. Air units in PvT are about where they were in BW, although mothership sucks a lot more than arbitors (but is offset by arbitors probably not being as good since terran doesnt mech and is much more mobile vs recalls).
What I think sucks in PvZ is how Hydras are just fucking ridiculously good vs air. Basically I think that pheonixs are ONLY good to have in PvZ when the zerg makes mutalisks. However if he does not make mutalisks then pheonixs are completely useless. Sure you can kill some drones, but hydras are pretty fast (especially on creep), have a good range, and have ridiculous DPS. Hydras are so much better vs air now that it doesnt even matter that zerg dont have scourge any more. Couple this with the fact that overlord speed researches fast and only costs 50/50 for god knows what reason and suddenly pheonix harass is nearly non-existent vs a competent zerg.
I've played SO many games where i try to incorporate pheonixs into my build but as soon as I get a stargate the zerg is allowed to get so much further ahead of me as the phoenix just simply isnt worth it's cost unless the zerg makes enough mutalisks for them to kill (assuming you actually keep up with his muta count). Maybe I just need to improve my control/strategy a lot more but I don't think that it's too big a deal, it's just so fucking easy for zerg to negate pheonix/void ray harass with just a few hydras.
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With smart cast and graviton beam, there's no way that Phoenixes will be useless.
We just need koreans that are able to do all the multitask.
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This poll is so stupid. What about other? What about none?
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why koreans, americans are the best multi taskers in the world. just look at american highways with people driving, texting, haveing a phone conversation and putting on makeup at the same time! what do the koreans do to beat that?
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On April 07 2010 11:52 peckham33 wrote:
why koreans, americans are the best multi taskers in the world. just look at american highways with people driving, texting, haveing a phone conversation and putting on makeup at the same time! what do the koreans do to beat that?
Koreans drive, have a phone conversation, put on makeup, and play starcraft on their phones at the same time.
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void rays suck??? I think not sir.
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Hyrule19086 Posts
Why does everyone forget the Mothership? It's a beastly air caster.
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On April 07 2010 10:57 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 09:56 Spartan wrote:
Eh, Protoss air isn't that bad. They do need a more versatile unit against ground though. what? void rays suck in combat, phoenix get shit on by everything that can attack it, minus mutas, and thats only in equalish #'s. carriers get raped by vikings and corrupters AND you cant micro then anymore, and mothership is a gimmick. phoenix GB is pretty pimp if used right tho, too bad it sucks at doing what its supposed to do
you can still kinda micro carriers...ish...
the issue with protoss air, i think, is very varied. for one, phoenix are good units with one glaring weakness. Their inability to attack ground. This allows Zerg to easily tech switch once they've made you invest in a large Phoenix fleet and completely own you with mass hydras or even zerglings and laugh as you can't deal with it due to a too-small ground army. This wasn't as noticeable in BW because of corsair splash. Corsair splash basically meant you didn't need to match Zerg muta count practically 1 for 1. This meant that you can rival Zerg in air superiority and still have resources to keep yourself from getting completely overrun on the ground. Lack of splash pretty much means that you have to keep a pretty even ratio (around 2:3) of phoenix to muta otherwise you get raped in the air. Even if you buff phoenix damage or armor or w/e that issue would still stand.
Void rays are pretty good units, but they're very specific in terms of uses and are too easily taken out by masses of smaller, less costly, units. But out of all Protoss air, it is void rays that I have the least problem with. The reason is because they were designed with a very specialized niche of being anti-building and anti-armored/massive and they fulfill that niche perfectly (in my opinion).
Carriers are actually stronger than in SCBW. The problem is that they're just too expensive to fit into the current metagame and map pool. What made them viable in SC:BW was the fact that you had a decent window of opportunity where you could switch to carriers and not die. This was enabled through larger maps and more large scale macro-oriented defensive play unlike in SC2 beta where maps are generally smaller and games are more about rushing and defensive play is so much less viable. If you play an FFA game and a Protoss is in the mix, chances are if they are able to get a critical mass of carriers, they will win. This, in my opinion, shows how carriers still have great destructive power. FFA and 1v1 differs of course, but mostly in that FFA is pretty much a turtle-fest, while 1v1 is more dynamic. In other words, if turtling (aka defensive play) becomes more viable, carriers will become more viable as well.
Mothership sucks. Period.
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EPT
