EPTProtoss air is lacking? - Page 7
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Jimmy Raynor
902 Posts
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Falling
Canada11535 Posts
I wonder if the main issue is not so much that Protoss air is terrible so much as there is no reason to tech to it? For the Terran, the medivac is so crucial to their bio army and so they build it- and while they're at it, it's worth building some vikings or some other air. Thus the starport doesn't go to waste. For Protoss, maybe, there is just too much good stuff in the Robo Bay- I have to force myself to tech to templar because most games can be won with a combo of warp gates and Robo Bays. In the SCBW, there was the shuttle, observer, and reaver- you could harrass and sometimes do a reaver push. But it wasn't usually the core of a Toss army- but you usually needed it for the observers. But even then, storms and dragoon micro could temporarily delay observer tech. I like the Robo units, but I wonder if they moved the observer to the Stargate- would that not make it a necessity to make a stargate? People would still get the Robo Bay because the warp prism, immortal, collossus options are still really good. But once you are forced to get a stargate to get observers, people would be more likely to put the stargates to use- rather than leaving them empty for the entire game. It's a flying unit, so it can easily come out of either places- screw SCBW tradition if it promotes better game variety I say. | ||
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Fwiffo
Canada57 Posts
On April 10 2010 04:18 Falling wrote: An Idea... ...once you are forced to get a stargate to get observers, people would be more likely to put the stargates to use- rather than leaving them empty for the entire game. Great idea! While you're at it, how about making the Marauder producible only at the Factory such that you're forced to build more factories! As above posters have mentioned the Phoenix needs to be more worthwhile to commit to it's production. Both the Zerg and Terran have massable air that doesn't become obsolete when the opponent tech switches. My suggestion is either significantly reduce the build time AND cost of the Phoenix or enhance it's ability (i.e. make Anti-Grav ground air units also OR be able to fire while using AG). Just to re-cap some stats to show Phoenix is most expensive and situational basic air unit: Mutalisk Cost:100/100 HP:120 BT:33 (Simultaneous build from multiple larva) Movement:Fast AtA & AtG: 9,3,1 Range:3 Rate:Normal Viking Cost:150/75 HP:125 BT:42 (effectively 21 w/ Reactor) Movement:Normal AtA: (10 + 4 vArmor)x2 Range:NINE! Rate:Normal GtG:14 Range:6 Rate:Fast (same range and greater DPS than Stalker for 25M/25G more) Phoenix Cost:150/100 HP/SP:120/60 BT:45 (35 w/ Chrono Boost w/ available energy) Movement:Fast AtA: (5 + 5 vLight)x2 Range:4 Rate:Fast Anti-Grav:Lift non-massive ground unit while incapacitating Phoenix for 10s and 50 energy Range:4 | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
Following either tree to it's end (templar or stargate) is extremely detrimental to the protoss player. While the zerg can generate detectors w/o a building other than the lair, and a terran can scan, emp, or build ravens from the starport: protoss are still absolutely bound to the robo fac for this crucial unit. Similarly, our best anti-ground-mass unit, the colossus, is also from the robo line. While HT used to be a competing stand-in, these days it isn't able to compete at all. Not only is the HT more vulnerable to EMP than the colossus, but it is also much slower and harder to manage in battle. So then, what of the stargate units? Well, these units are defficient, even by comparison to the post-nerf templar. Not only is the phoenix a terrible harasser, compared to it's counterparts, due to it's tiny range and utter vulnerability to any small GtA units or static defense, it is also an attrociously expensive air-superiority fighter that can only compete with the mutalisk (and only to the point when splash overcomes them). Their immense speed is more often a detriment than an asset, sending them head-long into enemy units before the supporting ground troops have arrived, or their slower fleet escort. Their tiny range causes them to be descimated by static defense. Their minute damage (split into two shots, which is even better) and bonus to light make them hands-down the worst AA fighter by far. The Void Ray is very unique. It's a fun harassment unit, and if you know how to micro the VR it can be quite powerful. That being said, it's still awful against most other air units, which shouldn't be a problem given the proposed role of the phoenix, but.. we've discussed that. The Carrier, icon of capitol ships, and probably still the weakest one. It cannot compete with the battlecruiser head to head. It falls easily to the corrupter, and doesn't have the devestating anti-ground effect of the brood lord. Frankly, the Tempest was a far better unit for the job. I don't understand why anyone would build a carrier 1v1, unless he wanted to embarass his opponent. The Carrier simply is not a proper capitol ship anymore. The Mothership. Frist off, it shouldn't be some kind of 400/400 megalithic game-ending super-unit. The limitation of having 1 at a time is enough. The mothership is far too expensive, and as we all WELL know, it's a heaping waste of resources in the present build(s). Honestly, I think it's price could be cut down significantly, and it's speed buffed. With just those minimal changes, the mothership might have tactical use without adding in some re-hashed version of an OP ability it once had. So Overall Units of the Stargate: Phoenix: Not Effective Void Ray: Effective Carrier: Not Effective Mothership: Not Effective | ||
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iDfyU
Germany45 Posts
void ray: is fine. it can kill buildings and big targets like colossus very well. just a bit underused in other strats then cheese. indeed its problem is that its so slow in battles. but players have to overcome this by could position play. carrier: fine. its strong if it catches the opponend of guard. i think that was never different. mothership: its fine as it is but i would like a smaller unit more. phoenix: cool unit and really cool ability. but its not strong enough against anti air. its impossible to gain air dominance. its only use currently is killing queens (which is great) hunting overlords (great) breaking wallins with tanks (yeah) and killing banshees BUT as soon as the enemy has his superior anti air fighters like a thousand mutalisks or a few vikings, the phoenix is useless. you cant counter banshees or mutalisks anymore. biggest problem against mutalisks is indeed that the zerg can produce way more than a toss can build phoenixes and even if the toss can overcome the zerg, all phoenixes get useless as soon as the zerg decides to drop mutalisks. what to do: buff phoenix. more damage against everything. like 7+5*2 or something. (probably have to calculate it precisely) this way, the lift ability gets stronger too. remove mothership and add a caster unit. i would love something like an arbiter. flying, AtG, cloaking and recall. one additional ability would be nice. like anti-air AoE stun or something (as long as the archon does not get better at this). of course you would have to build a new tech building. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/File:Phoenix_SC2_Game2.jpg Make the range smaller then that picture. I feel like I would give the Vikings range 10 attack to the corrupter, and bringing back the overload which now effects ground units and stuns for ~2-3 seconds. The corrupter would receive static damage. The viking would receive an attack speed buff. This would give the zerg a strong counter versus the new pheonix, while terran would receive a more versatile and less specialized air unit. Micro would be improved over all, as the scourge micro dynamic would make a return in the form of pheonix overload, while the zerg would need to be very careful in order to snipe pheonixes. | ||
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
imho simply put what makes the Phoenix strong is it's movement speed coupled with the dmg it does and the lift ability and what makes it not being built is the time it takes(maybe the cost as well but from looking at the stats provided by Fwiffo I'd say it's justified). I say the time it takes because when you scout zerg going air you put down a stargate as a reaction(or just increase your stalker and sentry count, but I think this will change) and the two buildings will finish more or less at the same point(from the point of spire starting to build to the point where protoss scouts and puts down a stargate/stargates is what makes the difference). But when the spire finishes the zerg then goes on to build 5-6 mutas off the bat, and then somewhat fast adds on another 3 or 4(total). And for the toss to react to this quickly enough it just isn't possible with one stargate, heck not even two as the toss needs to put it's phoenixes into use pretty much straight away. So my proposal is to decrease the build time of the phoenix to 41 seconds and give it a somewhat longer acceleration time on movement. This would make it build at a ratio to mutas that works for the Phoenix, given you use chrono boost of course(basically scouting is the limiting factor that keeps you from having enough phoenixes to deal with the mutas). If you don't use chrono boost then don't expect to come out ahead or break even since you won't have enough phoenixes at one given point to deal with the mutas(unless you hide your phoenixes while waiting for the others to finish and at which point you simply have to accept mutas wreaking havoc in your base due to your lack of air, and your ground will be busy elsewhere or dead). To break even you would need another stargate with generous amounts of chrono boost. Any sort of damage buff(added base dmg or the overload ability) would offset the balance in dps of the two units the way it is now(which is fine). OR, and this is a big one, maybe protoss needs to work on using stargates and phoenixes more and try to figure out how to incorporate it into a bo that works against zerg going mutas. But this is really a big OR since it might not be viable due to the games current state. Of course they do exist in which the phoenix takes on a role of harasser and then deals with enemy air but Z seldom goes for mutas when protoss already has phoenixes in the air(just build hydras instead, faster and cheaper). And last but not least: get it out of your head that units have to play somewhat similar just beacause they are air or ground or armored etc. SC2 is much more diverse in that units seem to, and therefore according to alot of people are supposed to, handle and play the same way between the races. But the way the game is designed they really arent. A Phoenix does quite ok vs air but where it really shines is as a harassing unit and shifting the battles in the protoss favor with the lift ability. Whereas a Viking is beast against air but is decent as a harassing unit BUT it dies real fast as soon as it touches ground and the only way for it to do somewhat good in a ground battle is if it's left alone more or less(although they do good vs marine/ling/zealots with some micro). | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
I really do agree that the relationship between the phoenix and muta isn't far off base, but that isn't the whole picture here. The phoenix is not a good answer to banshees, vikings, BC, Carrier, Brood Lord, or Corrupters. Void Rays don't cover this role either because the phoenix should be able to cover their slow build-up damage with fast AA support (to protect the rays from being gibbed by mutas, corrupters, vikings, etc.), but it just doesn't happen. The two pre-carrier toss air units do not work well together like their terran and zerg counterparts. This is a problem. | ||
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Magnificent
United States41 Posts
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