EPTProtoss air is lacking? - Page 5
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peckham33
United States267 Posts
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 07 2010 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote: you can still kinda micro carriers...ish... Carriers are actually stronger than in SCBW. The problem is that they're just too expensive to fit into the current metagame and map pool. What made them viable in SC:BW was the fact that you had a decent window of opportunity where you could switch to carriers and not die. Mothership sucks. Period. idk man, i'd say relatively, its significantly weaker. both terran and zerg now have an aerial AA unit that does massive damage to carriers AND can chase them down, so your mobility advantage is gone, as is your ability to dictate when/where you fight. (mass wraiths/devs didnt work exceedingly well in BW, as opposed to vikings/corrupters hard-countering them here). plus now hydras annihilate your interceptors worse than 3/3 gols did in BW, their only niche atm seems to be vs pvp, just cause we get back to the point that toss Air sucks. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 07 2010 12:28 Chen wrote: idk man, i'd say relatively, its significantly weaker. both terran and zerg now have an aerial AA unit that does massive damage to carriers AND can chase them down, so your mobility advantage is gone, as is your ability to dictate when/where you fight. (mass wraiths/devs didnt work exceedingly well in BW, as opposed to vikings/corrupters hard-countering them here). plus now hydras annihilate your interceptors worse than 3/3 gols did in BW, their only niche atm seems to be vs pvp, just cause we get back to the point that toss Air sucks. by stronger I mean that dps is higher. terran and zerg could chase down carriers in BW too. The only difference is that terran AA tended to be ground based and map design allowed for carriers to do hit-run tatics and same for zerg ground AA. AA based in air for Terran was too out-of-reach to counter carriers effectively, while zerg air-based AA was high tech. In SC2, map design doesn't allow for hit-run to be as viable (hence my bit on the map pool). And you're right in that vikings/corrupters do pose a significant threat to carriers, but ideally the mothership or phoenix would provide decent support for the carriers to keep them from insta-dying (vortex, defensive recall) only problem with that is that motherships suck and phoenix are pretty much only good as harassers and anti-light air. | ||
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Magnificent
United States41 Posts
On April 07 2010 12:35 avilo wrote: Is this a joke thread? Carriers are just as strong as they've always been, and void rays are strong as fuck too. pertty sure the op was talking about staple/support units that are easier to get (tier 2/2.5). | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On April 07 2010 12:35 avilo wrote: Is this a joke thread? Carriers are just as strong as they've always been, and void rays are strong as fuck too. Is this a joke-post because Carriers are clearly not as strong as in SC1 and VoidRays are just a cheesey Unit that can easily be countered by scouting properly and knowing the Matchups... It's all about that Stargate is overall more a gimmick than a solid Building, because you can't integrade a Stargate into a solid build in any MU. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 07 2010 17:17 kickinhead wrote: Is this a joke-post because Carriers are clearly not as strong as in SC1 and VoidRays are just a cheesey Unit that can easily be countered by scouting properly and knowing the Matchups... It's all about that Stargate is overall more a gimmick than a solid Building, because you can't integrade a Stargate into a solid build in any MU. Precisely. The problem with our air is that, with exception of the silly mothership, none of our air units are particuarly effective with standing armies of ground troops. Void-rays loose increidble amounts of damage if they have to continually target switch. The phoenix has tiny range, and has to remain locked in place to grav a unit: ie. becomes a "kill me" sign above the battle for all anti-air to see. The carrier, besides being very late-game, is incredibly inferior in smaller numbers to other late-game air units. I'd say: replace carrier with tempest, give the phoenix more range so that it can grav units without putting itself above the enemy line, and leave the void-ray as our gimmick air unit. As for the mothership. I think a slight price reduction and build-time reduction could make it more apprealing, without buffing it much. | ||
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milly9
Canada325 Posts
On April 07 2010 17:56 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Precisely. The problem with our air is that, with exception of the silly mothership, none of our air units are particuarly effective with standing armies of ground troops. Void-rays loose increidble amounts of damage if they have to continually target switch. The phoenix has tiny range, and has to remain locked in place to grav a unit: ie. becomes a "kill me" sign above the battle for all anti-air to see. The carrier, besides being very late-game, is incredibly inferior in smaller numbers to other late-game air units. I'd say: replace carrier with tempest, give the phoenix more range so that it can grav units without putting itself above the enemy line, and leave the void-ray as our gimmick air unit. As for the mothership. I think a slight price reduction and build-time reduction could make it more apprealing, without buffing it much. I find the main problem with the mothership is that it can't get away from anything. So if they were going to buff it in some way, I'd mainly just want improved speed. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
Just a thought from a sleepy forum lurker | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 07 2010 18:10 Plexa wrote: Void Rays are amazing. They are not a cheesy unit and they will become the most important unit in the Protoss arsenal years down the track. They are the new corsair imo, since they play a similar role to them (harass but moreso, scouting) and are valid in every matchup. Truly a wonder unit. i can see where you're going with this, but comparing them to sairs is a bad analogy imo. a pretty big part of why sairs were used was to help ward off mutas/gain air superiority to use shuttles. void rays on the other hand... well if you're under attack by mutas it'd be a better investment to spend that money on +1 shields for you buildings I havent seen anything that the void ray does apart from killing buildings that the phoenix doesnt do better for less. phoenix is faster, cheaper, and in addition to scout/ovie harass phoenix can worker harass with graviton beam. care to enlighten me on what exactly it is that the void ray is great at apart from the obvious building destruction? | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 07 2010 18:21 Chen wrote: i can see where you're going with this, but comparing them to sairs is a bad analogy imo. a pretty big part of why sairs were used was to help ward off mutas/gain air superiority to use shuttles. void rays on the other hand... well if you're under attack by mutas it'd be a better investment to spend that money on +1 shields for you buildings I havent seen anything that the void ray does apart from killing buildings that the phoenix doesnt do better for less. phoenix is faster, cheaper, and in addition to scout/ovie harass phoenix can worker harass with graviton beam. care to enlighten me on what exactly it is that the void ray is great at apart from the obvious building destruction? Void Rays = vision Void Rays = seeing Muta tech before it's finished Void Rays = preexisting stargate Preexisting Stargate = Phoenix to counter muta without significant investment. The best thing about the Void Ray is that it locks your opponent up into investing in things he doesn't want to. To move out he either needs to keep hydras at home or invest in spores - either way you keep him in giving you enough time to get an expansion up. The key is not losing the Void Rays as the pressure they apply is far more useful than the damage they are likely to cause. Furthermore, Voids will nearly always come before Muta do so it's not like in BW when Corsairs/Muta could pop around the same time. | ||
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iounas
409 Posts
They are already bad vs many small units by their design, no need to make them even worse with that.. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On April 07 2010 17:56 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Void-rays loose increidble amounts of damage if they have to continually target switch. Next time please try to use the unit at least once before you talk... | ||
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Trap
United States395 Posts
On April 07 2010 18:22 Plexa wrote: Void Rays = vision Void Rays = seeing Muta tech before it's finished Void Rays = preexisting stargate Preexisting Stargate = Phoenix to counter muta without significant investment. The best thing about the Void Ray is that it locks your opponent up into investing in things he doesn't want to. To move out he either needs to keep hydras at home or invest in spores - either way you keep him in giving you enough time to get an expansion up. The key is not losing the Void Rays as the pressure they apply is far more useful than the damage they are likely to cause. Furthermore, Voids will nearly always come before Muta do so it's not like in BW when Corsairs/Muta could pop around the same time. Vs zergs who are experienced vs void ray, you are quite vulnerable to a roach hydra counter after void ray before you get your collosus tech up (delayed even more by having to get a natural, which they can deny with speedlings until you get a sizable # of cannons) If they open with 2 queens, keep ovies in a circle around their main, and as often is the case have opened hydra, you don't do any significant damage with the first void ray. They need only a queen and 3 hydras per expo to be safe from any further void ray attack. From there, you can expand, but have to pay for nexus, forge, cannons, robo, robo support, 2ish collosus, and several sentries before you are safe from a roach hydra bust. The time it takes to get 2 collosus after you have spent getting 1-2 void rays and an expansion is too large and good zergs punish you for it (also using an overseer they can get a pretty good picture of when you're skipping on defence / what state your robo tech is at). Most of the time I open 1 gate stargate I prefer showing a single phoenix to preempt them from massing muta, stop them from getting information about my expansion or robo tech early, and prioritize my robo tech over saturating my natural with probes. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
I myself use the Void Ray cheese a lot in PvZ on big maps, but that's pretty much the only time I use it. Of course, once you get like 4 or 5, they become deadly all together, but it's a really expensive unit and any other air unit, aside from maybe vikings, can outrun and hit n run them very easily. Regarding Phoenixes, the idea of Gravitation Beam forcing air units to the ground is not a bad idea, much like the net ability the Raiders have in Warcraft III. It would actually make the Muta harass a lot easier to handle and it wouldn't completely ruin the match-up by making Phoenixes overpowered since the Phoenix using Gravitation Beam would be quite vulnerable while channeling and could so be taken down easily by a couple of Mutas. Although I think that if they implemented that, they should definitely increase the energy cost to like 65 or 75. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Cannons are enough to stall off any early attack, while committing 6 hydras to defense can take the sting out of a roach/hydra break. Furthermore, if they are putting lords around their base - that's excellent, since I will try and snipe them off and keep the zerg occupied. You don't necessarily need robo tech immediately anyway, it's legitimate to follow up with DTs if they are going to bust you (which you should be able to see from drone saturation and whatnot) else getting blink or charge and applying some micro can suffice to ward off slower breaks. I think it's perfectly legitimate, as again, you're in it for the pressure as opposed to the damage (any damage is really a bonus the way I see it). If Voids weren't legitimate do you think you would see good players like Dreiven and Hasuobs still opening with them? Regarding Phoenixes, the idea of Gravitation Beam forcing air units to the ground is not a bad idea, much like the net ability the Raiders have in Warcraft III. It would actually make the Muta harass a lot easier to handle and it wouldn't completely ruin the match-up by making Phoenixes overpowered since the Phoenix using Gravitation Beam would be quite vulnerable while channeling and could so be taken down easily by a couple of Mutas. Although I think that if they implement that, they should definitely increase the energy cost to like 65 or 75. That would make perfect sense haha. Although, I don't know what practical use it would have since Phoenix are much better just attacking mutalisks and with the recent buff, Stalkers are decent against them as well (with sentry obviously). Although, perhaps it would be useful against Corruptors mid game vs Colossus? | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On April 07 2010 18:35 Klockan3 wrote: Perhaps you should try it out. The Void ray is extremely weak against for example marines. It retains a charge that has gone to a higher level, but if it doesn't have enough time to increase to a higher level, it will have to attempt to recharge completely on the next target.Next time please try to use the unit at least once before you talk... Not only that, but it has a huge delay in switching targets. It's extremely crappy against anything thats small, such as Marines or Hydralisks. On April 07 2010 18:10 Plexa wrote: Void Rays are amazing. They are not a cheesy unit and they will become the most important unit in the Protoss arsenal years down the track. They are the new corsair imo, since they play a similar role to them (harass but moreso, scouting) and are valid in every matchup. Truly a wonder unit. I've watched hundreds of top level games and I've never seen it be anything but a gimmick. Claiming that "it's the new corsair its just that you nor anyone else cant see it but I can" really feels like the emperors new clothes. Corsair is used in masses pretty much every game (pvz), I've not seen one single game where void rays have been used in mass. If you are going to do such a bold claim, I'd expect it to come with an abundance of evidence, instead, you provide none. Show us some top tournament level games where it is used as much as corsair is in any random SC1 PvZ game. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On April 07 2010 19:12 Plexa wrote: But trap, I'm not in it to do significant damage. Besides, after the early Zealot pressure most Zerg do get the Roach warren to be safe (whether they build roaches or not is a different issue) which slows things down just that little bit more. Even moreso if they are expanding. Perhaps I'm just not playing Zergs who are experienced against Voids, but the picture you paint isn't quite as grim as you are making out. Cannons are enough to stall off any early attack, while committing 6 hydras to defense can take the sting out of a roach/hydra break. Furthermore, if they are putting lords around their base - that's excellent, since I will try and snipe them off and keep the zerg occupied. You don't necessarily need robo tech immediately anyway, it's legitimate to follow up with DTs if they are going to bust you (which you should be able to see from drone saturation and whatnot) else getting blink or charge and applying some micro can suffice to ward off slower breaks. I think it's perfectly legitimate, as again, you're in it for the pressure as opposed to the damage (any damage is really a bonus the way I see it). If Voids weren't legitimate do you think you would see good players like Dreiven and Hasuobs still opening with them? That would make perfect sense haha. Although, I don't know what practical use it would have since Phoenix are much better just attacking mutalisks and with the recent buff, Stalkers are decent against them as well (with sentry obviously). Although, perhaps it would be useful against Corruptors mid game vs Colossus? Nah, it would give a whole new purpose to Phoenixes. I think everyone on this thread agreed that a Protoss can never match a Zerg when it comes to producing Phoenixes and Mutalisks. But since Phoenixes are supposed to be the counter to Mutalisks, implementing that feature would actually make it ok for the Protoss to have less Phoenixes, because it would basically bring the ground army into most fights and would render the Mutalisk harass a LOT less effective, while still remaining possibly deadly if the Zerg uses his brain a little. Cuz I'm sorry but right now, in order to perform an efficient harass, all the Zerg has to do is go to the mineral line, attack some random probes, fly back whenever a threat shows up, and then switch to the expand if there is one, and then repeat, all that while completely outrunning the Protoss' army and crushing any Phoenix coming their way because of the outnumbering. Gravitation Beam working both ways would create a new way for Protoss to deal with air, by also impletenting the already quite diversified ground army to air fights. I'd see this as the perfect replacement for Overload or the AoE ability the Corsairs had. I mean, this would greatly justify a Stargate build, for me at least. Bottomline, Gravitation Beam has the potential to make Phoenixes a great replacement to Corsairs, and would in my opinion bring some fresh to the Starcraft gameplay by creating new situations. Someone suggest this on Blizzard forums please ! xD | ||
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Trap
United States395 Posts
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