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On April 05 2010 15:33 ComradeDover wrote:
Where is the option for "Nothing should be changed"?
Protoss have plenty of air power. Just because it isn't being used doesn't mean it isn't good. Dick around with the protoss air and see what you come up with.
Also, note that the phoenix is 10 x 2 base damage, not just 10. It's not bad at all and with it's gravity-lift ability lets it snipe key units during battles (Or raids. Queen sniping while overlord hunting really hurts the zerg macro)
It's actually 5 x 2 (+5 vs Light) but no air unit is a "light" type, except maybe mutalisks. That bonus only comes in handy when you're lifting workers or if you're actually lifting zealots/lings/rines.
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On April 05 2010 23:21 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 16:03 Plexa wrote:
Bring back the Tempest!!
Nah Protoss air is alright at the moment imo. Phoenix are a ridiculously cool unit, Void Rays have their place and Carriers are Carriers. Only issue with Protoss air atm is with the Mothership - i'd like to see a air caster given to Protoss other than that I'm pretty happy. I was actually going to suggest that as a serious idea! Bring back the tempest! Have it function as a light-carrier that can only attack ground units. That whole extra-armor-vs-ground-attacks idea was cool as well.
What is tempest?
I have seen it before but it looked just like carrier but with melee attack.
Would be seriously cool to see a smaller version of carrier before the real comes..
Like with 3 interceptors and AtG..
Protoss needs something more..
Stuff it has is just too specific in use..
Im not even sure how good are carriers right now for their price with so many good counters..
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On April 05 2010 23:29 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 15:33 ComradeDover wrote:
Where is the option for "Nothing should be changed"?
Protoss have plenty of air power. Just because it isn't being used doesn't mean it isn't good. Dick around with the protoss air and see what you come up with.
Also, note that the phoenix is 10 x 2 base damage, not just 10. It's not bad at all and with it's gravity-lift ability lets it snipe key units during battles (Or raids. Queen sniping while overlord hunting really hurts the zerg macro) It's actually 5 x 2 (+5 vs Light) but no air unit is a "light" type, except maybe mutalisks. That bonus only comes in handy when you're lifting workers or if you're actually lifting zealots/lings/rines.
And again: Try utilizing Phoenix against sm1 not going for a lot of Mutas and you won't stand a chance. You can't build a Unit that late in the game just to harrass a bit. That maybe works very early on with stuff like Reapers, but to build a stargate and phoenix just to kill some overlords and do some scouting and harrass a little bit here and there won't work.
Phoenix are at best a counter-unit to maybe Mutas or Voidrays, but you can't really go for a stargate and integrate that into a standard and solid build, it just doesn't work atm. There is no Unit in the Stargate that can be used as a staple against another race like Arbiters/Carriers in TvP or Corsairs in TvZ back in the (g)olden SC1-days and that just hurts the versatility of SC2 a bit.
Terran has Medivacs which can always be used and Ravens and Vikings which are pretty good as well and Banshees which deal a lot of DMG and can get cloaked, Zerg has Mutas which are decent in most MU's and Corruptors which work well as a counterunit to Collossi for example and of course the Broodlords, so it's also viable to go for a Spire in almost all of the MU's, but P just has no solid Units you can build a non-cheesey strategy around in their Stargate...
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The Stargate is pretty much useless at the moment. Compare the three basic air units of Protoss vs Terran and you see how lackluster they are.
In one corner, Phoenix, Void ray and Warp Prism
Compared to Viking, Banshee and Medivac.
(if you want to make it really sad compare Raven to Mothership)
Two gimmick units and one decent one compared to 3 extremely useful units. There is simply nothing to argue about, the 3 basic Terran air units are far superior to the Protoss ones in every possible way.
If you read the in-game tooltip for Phoenix it even says its "Strong against: Viking". Unfortunately it's not strong against the viking at all, cost for cost they are pretty much even and the Viking can attack ground and is nearly equal to a stalker in efficiency in that role. Same with the Muta, Pheonix and Mutas are almost equal cost for cost, except the Muta can also attack ground. What should be done in my opinion is to make the Phoenix a viable unit (buff it) and make the void ray less gimmick. The only thing its good for currently is to cheese and take out an early nexus or Hatchery.
The Mothership I'm not even going to comment on, it's not even a gimmick, I've never seen it used in any game what-so-ever since its nerf.
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Carriers would use a bit of a boost, but I wouldn't go as far as saying their air sucks. After all, they do have void rays, and a perfect versatile natural anti-air (Stalkers)
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On April 05 2010 23:48 Paladia wrote:
The Stargate is pretty much useless at the moment. Compare the three basic air units of Protoss vs Terran and you see how lackluster they are.
In one corner, Phoenix, Void ray and Warp Prism
Compared to Viking, Banshee and Medivac.
Two gimmick units and one decent one compared to 3 extremely useful units. There is simply nothing to argue about, the 3 basic Terran air units are far superior to the Protoss ones in every possible way.
If you read the in-game tooltip for Phoenix it even says its "Strong against: Viking". Unfortunately it's not strong against the viking at all, cost for cost they are pretty much even and the Viking can attack ground and is nearly equal to a stalker in efficiency in that role. What should be done in my opinion is to make the Phoenix a viable unit (buff it) and make the void ray less gimmick. The only thing its good for currently is to cheese and take out an early nexus or Hatchery.
The Mothership I'm not even going to comment on, it's not even a gimmick, I've never seen it used in any game what-so-ever since its nerf.
Warp-Prism is quite okay IMHO, but it's not a Stargate-Unit, it's built in the Robo. ^^'
The Robo is really great IMHO, you have solid Units like Immo and Collo which are heavily used, than u have more "supporty" Stuff like Observers and of course the Warp-Prism, which is an awesome and heavily underused Unit.
Just to plug a bit for the Warp-Prism:
- Collossi-Drops are awesome and work similar to reaver-drops against Terran, but it also works well against Z and P, cuz Collos 1shot Drones and Probes.
- There are a lot of Island-Expansion that can be taken with an early Warpprism and later on defended easily with Cannons and warp-in's
- Immortal-Drops against Terran are also very good to pick off workers, Building-Addons and Depots.
- In the Lategame, just fly in a Prism, make it into the pylon and warp-in stuff from 6-10 Warpgates: Works just like a recall into the enemys base in SC1 - awesome stuff!
- instead of investing into an offensive pylon for 150 Mins, just build a Prism for 200/0 and use that instead!
In TvP, I almost always go for a prism in the Lategame or even very early on for Immo/Collossi-Drops and Island-Expansions, but it's a bit hard to get one out early on, because you really often need the 200 mins for attacking-Units... :S
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I've been rolled by protoss air before. Once they get so many void rays and phoenixes, it becomes fairly hard to deal with, but not impossible. I could see void rays getting a bit of a boost, but too much and it becomes a problem.
I think the carrier needs a bit of a buff, but the problem with that is that while carrier masses are strong, carrier mothership masses are practically unbeatable due to cloaking. If they upgraded the carrier too much, that's exactly what we'd see.
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On April 05 2010 23:57 onmach wrote:
I've been rolled by protoss air before. Once they get so many void rays and phoenixes, it becomes fairly hard to deal with, but not impossible. I could see void rays getting a bit of a boost, but too much and it becomes a problem.
Yeah - but that's just a cheesey allin and NO - VRays don't need a buff in a hundred years! ^^'
And Carriers wouldn't really work even with a buff, because there are so many extremely strong counters. In SC1, they worked against Terran when you were able to abuse the Mapstructure to keep the Goliaths running around the Map while you are above a cliff and they couldn't attack you etc. Now with stuff like Corrputors and Vikings, they don't stand a chance. Besides, Stimmed Marines demolish Interceptors like crazy.
Carriers can be still used to surprise the opponent in the very lategame, but thats not really a solid build to aim for that makes stargate early on or in the Midgame a solid option.
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On April 06 2010 00:00 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 23:57 onmach wrote:
I've been rolled by protoss air before. Once they get so many void rays and phoenixes, it becomes fairly hard to deal with, but not impossible. I could see void rays getting a bit of a boost, but too much and it becomes a problem. Yeah - but that's just a cheesey allin and NO - VRays don't need a buff in a hundred years! ^^' And Carriers wouldn't really work even with a buff, because there are so many extremely strong counters. In SC1, they worked against Terran when you were able to abuse the Mapstructure to keep the Goliaths running around the Map while you are above a cliff and they couldn't attack you etc. Now with stuff like Corrputors and Vikings, they don't stand a chance. Besides, Stimmed Marines demolish Interceptors like crazy. Carriers can be still used to surprise the opponent in the very lategame, but thats not really a solid build to aim for that makes stargate early on or in the Midgame a solid option.
I think battlecruisers will be more common than carriers..
They have more hp, armor and yamato which 1 shots corruptors, vikings and they have the highest dps to ground in the game.
And if you make carriers against zerg you can expect broodlords as soon as corruptors deal with them... Not that anyone would be crazy enough to make battlecruisers or carriers against zerg and versatile hydras anyway..but whats the point of capital ships and investing so much money if they have easy counters for every race..
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On April 06 2010 00:00 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 23:57 onmach wrote:
I've been rolled by protoss air before. Once they get so many void rays and phoenixes, it becomes fairly hard to deal with, but not impossible. I could see void rays getting a bit of a boost, but too much and it becomes a problem. Yeah - but that's just a cheesey allin and NO - VRays don't need a buff in a hundred years! ^^' And Carriers wouldn't really work even with a buff, because there are so many extremely strong counters. In SC1, they worked against Terran when you were able to abuse the Mapstructure to keep the Goliaths running around the Map while you are above a cliff and they couldn't attack you etc. Now with stuff like Corrputors and Vikings, they don't stand a chance. Besides, Stimmed Marines demolish Interceptors like crazy. Carriers can be still used to surprise the opponent in the very lategame, but thats not really a solid build to aim for that makes stargate early on or in the Midgame a solid option.
I think that interceptors overall die to easily. Maybe because everything seems to attack faster or something, but god, they evaporate so fast.
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Let this sentance be an expression of my exasperation:
REVAMP PROTOSS AIR OMFGZZ!111
What I think should happen is:
Remove the Mothership/Void Rays
Tweak the Phoenix and Carrier
Add a Caster (Stargate-built) unit with cloak and some new abilities
Add an AtG AoE unit.
This is my opinion. Don't flame just 'cause u disagree. It's vital that Blizz does something, so let's get noticed.
I also made this post in the arbiter thread before I noticed this one. Sorry.
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On April 06 2010 00:21 exeprime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 00:00 kickinhead wrote:On April 05 2010 23:57 onmach wrote:
I've been rolled by protoss air before. Once they get so many void rays and phoenixes, it becomes fairly hard to deal with, but not impossible. I could see void rays getting a bit of a boost, but too much and it becomes a problem. Yeah - but that's just a cheesey allin and NO - VRays don't need a buff in a hundred years! ^^' And Carriers wouldn't really work even with a buff, because there are so many extremely strong counters. In SC1, they worked against Terran when you were able to abuse the Mapstructure to keep the Goliaths running around the Map while you are above a cliff and they couldn't attack you etc. Now with stuff like Corrputors and Vikings, they don't stand a chance. Besides, Stimmed Marines demolish Interceptors like crazy. Carriers can be still used to surprise the opponent in the very lategame, but thats not really a solid build to aim for that makes stargate early on or in the Midgame a solid option. I think that interceptors overall die to easily. Maybe because everything seems to attack faster or something, but god, they evaporate so fast.
carriers
vs Z: hydras, corruptors.. Make as many as you want in a short time..
vs T: reactor vikings, marines, thor.. Im guessing new splash thor would just melt all interceptors in few seconds
vs P:stalkers, void rays
So is there a place for carriers now?
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I really dont think p needs much an air buff but I personally think that if phoenix had splash, even a little area, would be great. It just seems so hard to kill mutas so I think we need either mael or some splash damage
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Colossus: chop the stupid spindly spider legs off it that would crumple like tin when a nearby zergling farts.
Make it fly: a testiment to true Protoss ingenuity.
Make it hella expensive like colosus but with 6 (upgradable to 8) range and a decent move speed (maybe slow, upped to less slow) Give it an AoE attack, like collosus, but maybe under some energy cost or, more naustalgically, 15 min scarabs. Give it some ability where it's attack has some glaring disadvantage (kind of like scarabs retardation only not) but is very strong when microed properly. Unlike colossus.
Immortal takes colossus slot at robo. Bam. Now toss needs all 3 buildings to have a balanced force AND a scary airforce which is mandatory for the most powerful alien race in the cosmos.
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The only thing wrong with Protoss air is Phoenixes. It makes me laugh when people say they are useful. THEY'RE WORTHLESS, COME ON. None of you have ever played a PvZ where the Z goes mass Muta. It's unbeatable. You can't go Phoenix because Mutas will eat them up as soon as there are more than 10 of them, you can't go Void Rays because their attack is too slow, you can't go Carrier because you will have lost by the time you even get one and you can't properly defend your base and your expand from the harass with Stalkers because Mutas are too damn fast, even if you get Blink.
Phoenixes need some AoE to counter Mutalisks. I've lost to so many Zergs that just do Mutalisks in massive amounts and don't do anything else. Cannons don't counter the harass either, and they can get out of a Storm very easily too thanks to their speed. Protoss need something to deal with them.
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what? you're gonna make toss air better by nerfing toss ground?
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Buff the mothership... problem solved?
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Protoss air is kind of weaksauce in the early-midgame, but Void Rays become much, much stronger with every attack upgrade. +50% damage vs. light units for every attack upgrade (only +20% damage against armored targets because the base damage is much higher), makes upgrades like the Hellion's Infernal Pre-Igniter seem like a joke.
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On April 05 2010 23:29 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 15:33 ComradeDover wrote:
Where is the option for "Nothing should be changed"?
Protoss have plenty of air power. Just because it isn't being used doesn't mean it isn't good. Dick around with the protoss air and see what you come up with.
Also, note that the phoenix is 10 x 2 base damage, not just 10. It's not bad at all and with it's gravity-lift ability lets it snipe key units during battles (Or raids. Queen sniping while overlord hunting really hurts the zerg macro) It's actually 5 x 2 (+5 vs Light) but no air unit is a "light" type, except maybe mutalisks. That bonus only comes in handy when you're lifting workers or if you're actually lifting zealots/lings/rines.
Phoenix are Light, Banshees are Light, Mutas are Light.
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EPT
