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On March 04 2010 06:32 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 06:26 Card5harko6 wrote:On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote:
Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table.. This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet. Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want.
No, no it's not.
Imagine the pool table again, but then imagine that Blizzard not only created the table, but they created the game of billiards itself, including all of the equipment used to play it and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition. You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here. Blizzard OWNS those games and the depictions of them. Legally, Kespa is completely out of line here. They are entirely founded on the principle of using someone elses copyrighted work to generate a profit, and if they actually think they can stand up to Blizzard and win, they're fucking idiots. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
The fact is, Blizzard is ultimately a profit-seeking entity. They are fundamentally only responsible to their shareholders, but luckily they perform this duty in a rather roundabout way. Instead of simply milking fans for all they're worth, they actually attempt to listen to them and foster a community that grows. They create a loyal fan base by supporting their games many many years after most companies have shut down servers and forgotten about it. They pay attention to exquisite details in the balance of their games in order to make them competitive and allow that community to grow with a purpose. They did this with starcraft and look where it took them. It's not as profitable today as it was when it first came out, but look at all the buzz for SC2 that is occurring already because of the heavy interest in the original? They have kept servers up and continued patches far past the point that I think was required, and then some. Blizzard does this to make money in the long run, but I like to think that in the end, they do it somewhat because they love their fans and, just like us, like to play games.
Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They have continued balance patches with no great benefit to themselves all this time. They are the example of a game company that actually cares about it's games and it's fans, and I think this is only growing more apparent as the Beta moves forward.
Thanks Blizzard, fuck the haters.
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On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 06:32 iounas wrote:On March 04 2010 06:26 Card5harko6 wrote:On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote:
Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table.. This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet. Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want. No, no it's not. Imagine the pool table again, but then imagine that Blizzard not only created the table, but they created the game of billiards itself, including all of the equipment used to play it and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition. You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here. Blizzard OWNS those games and the depictions of them. Legally, Kespa is completely out of line here. They are entirely founded on the principle of using someone elses copyrighted work to generate a profit, and if they actually think they can stand up to Blizzard and win, they're fucking idiots. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. The fact is, Blizzard is ultimately a profit-seeking entity. They are fundamentally only responsible to their shareholders, but luckily they perform this duty in a rather roundabout way. Instead of simply milking fans for all they're worth, they actually attempt to listen to them and foster a community that grows. They create a loyal fan base by supporting their games many many years after most companies have shut down servers and forgotten about it. They pay attention to exquisite details in the balance of their games in order to make them competitive and allow that community to grow with a purpose. They did this with starcraft and look where it took them. It's not as profitable today as it was when it first came out, but look at all the buzz for SC2 that is occurring already because of the heavy interest in the original? They have kept servers up and continued patches far past the point that I think was required, and then some. Blizzard does this to make money in the long run, but I like to think that in the end, they do it somewhat because they love their fans and, just like us, like to play games. Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They have continued balance patches with no great benefit to themselves all this time. They are the example of a game company that actually cares about it's games and it's fans, and I think this is only growing more apparent as the Beta moves forward. Thanks Blizzard, fuck the haters.
Actually, NFL is comparable to KeSPA, not Blizzard, so that analogy doesn't work. Nor does actually the one about pool. It is not clear which one would win a legal battle.
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great posts Sith, a lot of retarded arguments in the thread 
Legally and Ethically, Kespa can fuck itself. It stands no chance.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On March 04 2010 07:04 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote:On March 04 2010 06:32 iounas wrote:On March 04 2010 06:26 Card5harko6 wrote:On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote:
Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table.. This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet. Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want. No, no it's not. Imagine the pool table again, but then imagine that Blizzard not only created the table, but they created the game of billiards itself, including all of the equipment used to play it and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition. You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here. Blizzard OWNS those games and the depictions of them. Legally, Kespa is completely out of line here. They are entirely founded on the principle of using someone elses copyrighted work to generate a profit, and if they actually think they can stand up to Blizzard and win, they're fucking idiots. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. The fact is, Blizzard is ultimately a profit-seeking entity. They are fundamentally only responsible to their shareholders, but luckily they perform this duty in a rather roundabout way. Instead of simply milking fans for all they're worth, they actually attempt to listen to them and foster a community that grows. They create a loyal fan base by supporting their games many many years after most companies have shut down servers and forgotten about it. They pay attention to exquisite details in the balance of their games in order to make them competitive and allow that community to grow with a purpose. They did this with starcraft and look where it took them. It's not as profitable today as it was when it first came out, but look at all the buzz for SC2 that is occurring already because of the heavy interest in the original? They have kept servers up and continued patches far past the point that I think was required, and then some. Blizzard does this to make money in the long run, but I like to think that in the end, they do it somewhat because they love their fans and, just like us, like to play games. Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They have continued balance patches with no great benefit to themselves all this time. They are the example of a game company that actually cares about it's games and it's fans, and I think this is only growing more apparent as the Beta moves forward. Thanks Blizzard, fuck the haters. Actually, NFL is comparable to KeSPA, not Blizzard, so that analogy doesn't work. Nor does actually the one about pool. It is not clear which one would win a legal battle.
When considering BROADCASTING RIGHTS it does work. You can't broadcast the NFL unless you have a deal with the organization. I think a lot of it has to do with Korea's legal system regarding IP Rights.
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On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote:
[ and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition.
Blizzard was running leagues in Korea? Since when? They weren't filming the matches, they were not organizing the tournaments.
On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote: You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here.
NFL had created Football ? They had made equipment for it? No they did with Football exactly what Koreans did with SC:BW. Analogy fail.
On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote: Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside.
They had definitely made much more then they had spend on patches or battlenet.
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On March 04 2010 07:04 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote:On March 04 2010 06:32 iounas wrote:On March 04 2010 06:26 Card5harko6 wrote:On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote:
Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table.. This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet. Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want. No, no it's not. Imagine the pool table again, but then imagine that Blizzard not only created the table, but they created the game of billiards itself, including all of the equipment used to play it and the cameras filming the matches. In fact, they even wanted their new game of "billiards" to succeed, so they sponsored tournament after tournament and kept producing their tables and sponsoring tournaments LONG after the competition. You know how the NFL says that it's games are copyrighted works that are not allowed to be shown without permission? It's the same thing here. Blizzard OWNS those games and the depictions of them. Legally, Kespa is completely out of line here. They are entirely founded on the principle of using someone elses copyrighted work to generate a profit, and if they actually think they can stand up to Blizzard and win, they're fucking idiots. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. The fact is, Blizzard is ultimately a profit-seeking entity. They are fundamentally only responsible to their shareholders, but luckily they perform this duty in a rather roundabout way. Instead of simply milking fans for all they're worth, they actually attempt to listen to them and foster a community that grows. They create a loyal fan base by supporting their games many many years after most companies have shut down servers and forgotten about it. They pay attention to exquisite details in the balance of their games in order to make them competitive and allow that community to grow with a purpose. They did this with starcraft and look where it took them. It's not as profitable today as it was when it first came out, but look at all the buzz for SC2 that is occurring already because of the heavy interest in the original? They have kept servers up and continued patches far past the point that I think was required, and then some. Blizzard does this to make money in the long run, but I like to think that in the end, they do it somewhat because they love their fans and, just like us, like to play games. Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They have continued balance patches with no great benefit to themselves all this time. They are the example of a game company that actually cares about it's games and it's fans, and I think this is only growing more apparent as the Beta moves forward. Thanks Blizzard, fuck the haters. Actually, NFL is comparable to KeSPA, not Blizzard, so that analogy doesn't work. Nor does actually the one about pool. It is not clear which one would win a legal battle.
The difference between the NFL and KeSPA is that NFL is owns the entire surrounding infrastructure as related to reproducing the games they play, but nobody owns the game itself. They play football, which is not copyrighted. Their legal rights come from the fact that they create and manage these games and teams. KeSPA plays Starcraft, which is copyrighted. While similar to the NFL in that they both manage teams and organize games, they do not actually own the rights to the game they play. In fact the way they broadcast the games using the "replay" technology is provided specifically by Blizzard and any telecasts of the games are basically a derivative work (IE under copyright by Blizzard). Blizzard could shut them the hell down if they really wanted to, while there is nobody that could "shut down" the NFL for playing footbal.
edit: @ Polis
Yes my analogy is not perfect, and I can see you are quite adept at pointing out the flaws in it. Most of what you said is explained by the previous paragraph though.
On March 04 2010 07:10 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 07:01 sith wrote: Blizzard has not been making a sizable amount of money off of Starcraft: BW for the past 7-8 years, and personally I think you can go fuck yourself if you still think you are owed anything by them. They are nothing but great to the community, and like I said, b.net lives to this day while other similar services have fallen by the wayside. They had definitely made much more then they had spend on patches or battlenet.
So? The fact that they profited off the game does not enable you or anyone else to somehow claim they are "owed" this money back. Fact is, they maintain battlenet at a net loss to themselves these days.
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On March 04 2010 07:11 sith wrote:
So? The fact that they profited off the game does not enable you or anyone else to somehow claim they are "owed" this money back.
They had sell more copies by releasing patches, and keeping bn active.
On March 04 2010 07:11 sith wrote:Fact is, they maintain battlenet at a net loss to themselves these days.
That is a fact? It is almost certain that they are making much more money selling SC then it cost to keep BN. Such servers are very cheap to run.
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On March 04 2010 07:11 sith wrote:
The difference between the NFL and KeSPA is that NFL is owns the entire surrounding infrastructure as related to reproducing the games they play, but nobody owns the game itself. They play football, which is not copyrighted. Their legal rights come from the fact that they create and manage these games and teams. KeSPA plays Starcraft, which is copyrighted. While similar to the NFL in that they both manage teams and organize games, they do not actually own the rights to the game they play. In fact the way they broadcast the games using the "replay" technology is provided specifically by Blizzard and any telecasts of the games are basically a derivative work (IE under copyright by Blizzard). Blizzard could shut them the hell down if they really wanted to, while there is nobody that could "shut down" the NFL for playing footbal.
They also use actual cameras to broadcast, so they should pay sony or whoever else that had made them right? Or just buy said cameras like they did with SC:BW? Just becouse you own software it does not mean that own everything that was made using this software, and EULA=/=law, not in Korea, and not in USA, only things that don't contradict law of the country can have a legal power.
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if KeSPA keeps being pushy then it's only going to get much worse for them. SC2 sales in korea will most likely crush any sort of kespa resistance come release day.
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Russian Federation410 Posts
^There won't be any significant sales if SC2 get 18+ Adult ratings as it has in China, preliminary. Plus, with with 18+A it also couldn't be broadcast on day/prime time television.
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On March 04 2010 07:24 Terranist wrote:
if KeSPA keeps being pushy then it's only going to get much worse for them. SC2 sales in korea will most likely crush any sort of kespa resistance come release day.
How do you know? What they will have if they would have to pay Blizzard? If SC2 will be successful then Blizzard will suck money from them, if it will not be successful then they will pay the costs. Some of you seem to think that such an offer is a hot cakes for some reason.
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Starcraft II will sell in Korea, I don't think anyone can argue that. Blizzard will be putting money into making Starcraft II an E-Sport, thats information is backed by Blizzard as well.
Now they want KeSPa to help promote this new game and open up South Korea's market, its not about getting money from SC1 anymore, they can't if that license deal in 2001 is true... they're trying to make this new game successful.
Now, for whatever reason, if KeSPa doesn't want to participate, fine. They're going to keep putting in financial backing for these tournaments, if SC2 is good enough to be an E-Sport, someone will pick it up because someone will make money off of it. There are investors everywhere looking for the next big thing. They will see KeSPa/MBC/OGN turning a profit in the past and they'll want a piece of that. KeSPa does not own E-Sports, they might own the name, the brand and have a loyal following but this can all change. Yes, Blizzard will probably have a harder time starting up SC2 in Korea but theres no argument that if SC2's gameplay can succeed, it will succeed with or without KeSPa.
So what if the old SC1 progamers aren't allowed to switch? A new breed of programers could pop up and some may even convert. All contracts expire. Again, if KeSPa doesn't want to participate, blizzard will have a harder time getting SC2 to start up but if the game is capable then its only a matter of time.
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You can't compare real sports with e-sports, why? because if you want to play a real sport you don't have to buy it, you buy what you play with as a computer to SC if you want some sort of similarity.
As video games have copyrights you may own it but you can't profit from it without a license to do that and KeSPA can't do anything about it, and they know it, that's what this power struggle is all about, they want to hold the progamers so SC2 fails to grab the sponsors attention.
Now what Blizzard can do is just to ignore KeSPA, start from ground zero and build a new progaming scene for SC2 that fits Blizzard's ideal, they might want to get some money out of the e-sports but the cut is quite low compared to SC2 sales and WoW accounts so I believe that money isn't the real issue.
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On March 04 2010 07:36 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 07:24 Terranist wrote:
if KeSPA keeps being pushy then it's only going to get much worse for them. SC2 sales in korea will most likely crush any sort of kespa resistance come release day. How do you know? What they will have if they would have to pay Blizzard? If SC2 will be successful then Blizzard will suck money from them, if it will not be successful then they will pay the costs. Some of you seem to think that such an offer is a hot cakes for some reason.
nobody can honestly know how exactly SC2 will turn out in korea, but it is safe to say there isn't enough motivation for the progamers to continue playing a game that will quickly be losing support. PC bangs will be filled with kids playing SC2 and if kespa doesn't want to cooperate then they will die a slow death by their own ignorance.
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On March 04 2010 07:48 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 07:36 Polis wrote:On March 04 2010 07:24 Terranist wrote:
if KeSPA keeps being pushy then it's only going to get much worse for them. SC2 sales in korea will most likely crush any sort of kespa resistance come release day. How do you know? What they will have if they would have to pay Blizzard? If SC2 will be successful then Blizzard will suck money from them, if it will not be successful then they will pay the costs. Some of you seem to think that such an offer is a hot cakes for some reason. nobody can honestly know how exactly SC2 will turn out in korea, but it is safe to say there isn't enough motivation for the progamers to continue playing a game that will quickly be losing support. PC bangs will be filled with kids playing SC2 and if kespa doesn't want to cooperate then they will die a slow death by their own ignorance.
Yes but the problem is on what terms, now the terms are Blizzard will do what it will like to do with SC2 later on, so now work for popularity of SC2. Why would KeSPA/OGN/MBC work on those terms? Invest money into something that they would have no rights for?
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In America, it's illegal to purchase a copyrighted film and to then sell seats to viewing without permission of the film publisher. The product is the viewable artwork itself. In the same way, you could argue that Starcraft isn't an idea or a concept, but a piece of artwork that renders unique animates because of the work the development team put into it. The actions of the players are negligible compared to the work of the developers.
However, I think it's entirely up for debate just how much of e-sports is the skill of the players and how much is the game animations themselves.
For example, if you want to sell seats to a basketball game, you do not need to pay royalties to the basketball manufacturer, nor can anyone patent the "idea" of basketball and charge people whenever they throw a ball into a hoop. But while there may be ideas of e-sports players competing in strategy apart from the software, there is no "idea of Starcraft" that can be performed without the product itself. There is no substitute for the genuine product.
So Blizzard is totally within their rights, but it is very easy to see where the Koreans are coming from (short of just trying to save money). It comes down to the skill and dedication of the players to transform Starcraft into an idea of e-sports that transcends the work of the developers, and Korea has shown more dedication than anyone else.
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On March 04 2010 07:23 Polis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 07:11 sith wrote:
The difference between the NFL and KeSPA is that NFL is owns the entire surrounding infrastructure as related to reproducing the games they play, but nobody owns the game itself. They play football, which is not copyrighted. Their legal rights come from the fact that they create and manage these games and teams. KeSPA plays Starcraft, which is copyrighted. While similar to the NFL in that they both manage teams and organize games, they do not actually own the rights to the game they play. In fact the way they broadcast the games using the "replay" technology is provided specifically by Blizzard and any telecasts of the games are basically a derivative work (IE under copyright by Blizzard). Blizzard could shut them the hell down if they really wanted to, while there is nobody that could "shut down" the NFL for playing footbal. They also use actual cameras to broadcast, so they should pay sony or whoever else that had made them right? Or just buy said cameras like they did with SC:BW? Just becouse you own software it does not mean that own everything that was made using this software, and EULA=/=law, not in Korea, and not in USA, only things that don't contradict law of the country can have a legal power.
Yes, they do pay the people who make the cameras, but only to actually buy them not to use them every time. You pay the NFL to watch it's games too, the only difference is that since the broadcast is infinitely reproducible the NFL wants money constantly, not only for the first viewing by a single individual. This analogy is better done with music or a television show, something that is replayed constantly. This is what copyright law is all about. Copyright law exists everywhere, though nobody has it as strict as the DMCA does here in the US.
Anyway, you are correct in saying that "Just becouse you own software it does not mean that own everything that was made using this software", but the thing is they are not painting a work of art with the game. They are playing it, then videotaping it and commenting on it and sending it out to untold masses. I'm not sure how Korean IP works, but I'm sure Blizzard could find some way to shut them down with this fact if they really wanted to.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 04 2010 06:32 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 06:26 Card5harko6 wrote:On March 04 2010 05:51 iounas wrote:
Imagine if there was a company selling for example pool tables for people to play and fool around and somebody thought to make it more serious and make a big tournament and broadcast it and now table company wants a cut because its played on their table.. This is not the same at all. Blizzard has not only created the game, (the pool table in your argument) but they created the means to play competitively with bnet. Its a product like any other with a set price that you can use how you want.
You should read your ToUs and EULAs more carefully next time you buy software.
Just because it makes sense for it to work like that doesn't mean that it does.
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France2061 Posts
On March 04 2010 07:46 RiGun wrote:
Now what Blizzard can do is just to ignore KeSPA, start from ground zero and build a new progaming scene for SC2 that fits Blizzard's ideal, they might want to get some money out of the e-sports but the cut is quite low compared to SC2 sales and WoW accounts so I believe that money isn't the real issue.
You really think that Blizzard is going to put money into building teams and infrastructure from scratch when they've never done that before? The whole reason for Blizzard's face-off with Kespa is because they clearly don't want to do that -- if they were willing to invest money to create a new scene they could ignore Kespa.
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that's kinda messed up
mike morhaime seems like a really nice guy
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EPT
