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On March 09 2013 03:54 Squiggles wrote:
I think Dustin Browder said it right in another thread regarding HOTS balance. Drops were pretty potent vP at the beginning of WOL, but Protoss players eventually figured out how to defend it to the point that you didn't see much of it anymore in the end. Heck, even I could easily defend it and I'm not GM. Limited numbers of templars to feedback + obs + cannons and your base becomes impenetrable in WOL against T (after I saw SKT-Rain do it, my PvT win % skyrocketed).
So give it a bit of time of Protoss to figure it out. It made for some crazy good games in Parting v Yoda. Constant aggression, counter-attacks, drops, etc... instead of NR15.
Terrans never stopped dropping with great effect n WoL. See the recent Flash vs Rain series in round 3 of Code A. The, 10 minute medevac timing defines TvP. Day 9 calls it the 10 minute scary time. That was in WoL with normal medevacs. Now the medevacs are faster than mutas. Of course they are imbalanced.
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Make the afterburners an upgrade with the starting energy boost.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage.
The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully.
Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine.
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On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine.
Did you watch Game 4? Parting used Photon overcharge to great effect (focus firing the medivacs), and
+ Show Spoiler + even though he was on 2-bases for quite awhile, the game ended up stabilizing and he won.
Remember, it still takes some micro to pull off harassment even with the medivac boost, and at the same time you have to macro back home.
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I think protoss should really learn to build some cannons early. As T you've got to get a bunker early to deflect MSC/Stalker/zealot pressure, so why not build one cannon per base as protoss when you scout potential widow mines drop? They'll be useful during the whole game and pretty much nullify the opening, as 4 marines won't ever do the trick against a canon.
Anyway I'm pretty sure it's better than pulling your probes 10s or more to wait for an observer to come and to kill the mine.
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Well lets protend it is imbalance, instead of nerfing it. Give the other races something AGAINST IT, i have no idea what but something gameplay wise fun to watch thing.........
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it.
God I agree with avilo, please don't get this nerfed yet just because you're seeing your favourite player/race being beaten, it's just one tournament before the game is even out.
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you can't really call results from IEM anything.
the players didn't get to play beta and can only theorycraft.
and the game is still technically in beta
mvp makes everything imba anyways
oh, and you think terran is the only one is "imba new tools"? how about when the game releases... actually.. experiment. [stargate, msc]
and the game hasn't been out yet long enough to consider anything op/imba (not even 3 months)
just because your defenses aren't adapted to fit hots (and so you're using wol defenses) doesn't mean it's imba, it just means you need to adapt.
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On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it.
Do you really believe blizzard will change their way of balancing in hots? They let us fight broodlord infestor untill the end of wol while nerfing us hard, so why wouldn't they nerf us hard in hots and let us be the weakest race again?
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On March 09 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it. Do you really believe blizzard will change their way of balancing in hots? They let us fight broodlord infestor untill the end of wol while nerfing us hard, so why wouldn't they nerf us hard in hots and let us be the weakest race again?
that's what I've been saying to people who optimistically say "HotS will fix StarCraft 2!", especially regarding ZvZ everywhere.
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On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine.
Like in game 4 where PartinG took his 3rd much later was was down 20 supply but held with storms? Is that the absurd advantage you are talking about? Terran bio needs that advantage now because you can have time warp plus storms.
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Afterburners should probable have a energy cost though, maybe 25 energy ? Either that or a slightly longer cooldown. But too be honest we have seen way to few games to be sure.
Please no. If anything, give afterburners a cool down. We can't snipe the medivacs with feedback if their low on energy.
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On March 09 2013 05:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine. Like in game 4 where PartinG took his 3rd much later was was down 20 supply but held with storms? Is that the absurd advantage you are talking about? Terran bio needs that advantage now because you can have time warp plus storms.
this
let the meta game play out before calling it imba pls.
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Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds
Here's the problem with the oracle in the TvP matchup. Medivacs are a staple unit of Terrans Bio composition; therefore, you need them regardless, so why not perform some drops if their sitting there anyway. With the oracle, it's not like that. You have to forgo your tech for some really gimmicky play early game to gain an edge. Late game, one turret negates any damage they'll do. Trying to gain an upperhand with oracle use (early/midgame) is a huge risk. If the terran defends, you've set yourself way behind. With the Terran, it isn't like that. Just don't throw away units as Terran and your still on an even playing field.
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Even if it might be imbalanced lets give it some time. Blizzard gave infestors about 7 months before nerfing them. See you all in October.
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I think once option to increase risk/rewards balance for these doom drops is to reduce the HP of medivacs
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Well you gotta realize MVP is the best Terran in the world. So that has to count the MVP factor. But I think that it's a bit op but its also new. Protoss players will lern to defend and adapt. I don't think widow mines re balanced yet they seem too unforgiving.
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On March 09 2013 05:24 Nick_54 wrote:
Even if it might be imbalanced lets give it some time. Blizzard gave infestors about 7 months before nerfing them. See you all in October.
Lol but they merged Terran pretty fast in every patch in wol lol
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On March 09 2013 05:33 HeeroFX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 05:24 Nick_54 wrote:
Even if it might be imbalanced lets give it some time. Blizzard gave infestors about 7 months before nerfing them. See you all in October. Lol but they merged Terran pretty fast in every patch in wol lol
Pre Queen/Overlord buff Terran got nerfed hard and fast, but so did the other races.
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On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine.
the problem is that the only option you're considering is turtling, so you're still only thinking towards your maxed a-moving deathball of gayness. you don't seem to understand that maybe blizzard decided it's time for protoss to do something else other than forcefielding ramps until 200/200. yea, no rush 20 time's over for protoss, fucking garbage huh?
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EPT
