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The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon.
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On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. I don't play either T or P. But there is clear difference in things you mentioned. Stargate+oracle is big mineral and gass investement. Building a medivac and few mines isn't, because you would have made them anyway. They are part of your army and you don't have to damage with it. On the other side P invested a lot and the main thing he delayed his tech he needs to survive, which is completely different from stargate. All that means that if both players build turrets/cannons and harass doesn't happen, in case of oracles P is behind, in case of WM drop P is behind too.
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On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon.
The main issue is that even a cannon cannot kill a mine before it burrows. Sure, the mine will die, but it's still going to take 12 probes with it from the splash damage attack unless you run them away. That's very difficult to do in time as you have very little time to react and if you CAN pull it off you didn't need the cannon in the first place.
The problem is a 4.25 speed medivac simply cannot be intercepted at all with stalkers (imagine trying to prevent a phoenix from flying over your mineral line with just stalkers, it's impossible) as it can just go around obstacles. Once it reaches your workers, it also outruns the workers meaning it can drop the mines across them and they can't escape. You have to do a frantic 300 APM worker split sending them in 8 different directions in about 2 seconds so the mine fire doesn't splash them all to death.
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On March 12 2013 08:16 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. I don't play either T or P. But there is clear difference in things you mentioned. Stargate+oracle is big mineral and gass investement. Building a medivac and few mines isn't, because you would have made them anyway. They are part of your army and you don't have to damage with it. On the other side P invested a lot and the main thing he delayed his tech he needs to survive, which is completely different from stargate. All that means that if both players build turrets/cannons and harass doesn't happen, in case of oracles P is behind, in case of WM drop P is behind too.
Dont agree yet
Stargate is 150/150
Oracle is 150/150
is 300/300
Widowmine 150/50
Burrow 150/150
Medivac 100/100
is 400/300
The widowmine is gasintensive too which in general would seem to delay the terran aswell (armysize, slower 3rd or upgrades). It is for P and Z to find out u can punish the use of widowminesdrops in a timewindow earlier or later in the game. If gas goes into widowmines it isnt going into upgrades, armysize or a more economic build, try to punish that!
What i do find wierd is that 1 widowmine can kill 15 zerglings or something, thats just overkill. If masters dont find a good answer to early widowmines the could try to reduce the radius of the splashdamage. That could be an answer if masters dont find the answer..
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I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly.
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On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly.
Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly?
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On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon.
When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it.
On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly?
Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for.
Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP.
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One of the biggest problems I had with WMs was the game where 1 WM in each mineral line 1shotted two Oracles, while Stalkers couldn't handle WM drops at all.
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On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly?
I never said you have to defend it perfectly, I said that maybe we just have to give up trying to be able to stop the Terran from dropping and focus on defending it perfectly instead - saying that Protoss might need to focus on defending something perfectly is different than saying you must to defend this perfectly.
Photon overcharge is a good spell, but you're going to have buildings around your base, not just clustered around your nexus. Maybe that's an idea, put your buildings around your nexus instead so that you can overcharge defend, but I don't know if that's really a good idea. Your base has to be built a specific way or else you're going to take a lot of damage to a drop.
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On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP.
If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes?
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On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes?
No, the cannon needs to fire 5x to destroy the 90hp widow mine.
With Planetary nexus however they can 3 shot each widow mine.
As others have said it's better to focus on the medivac, losing it that early is huge.
It would take skill to kite the probes around planetary nexus to force the medivac to remain in range and be eventually destroyed.
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On March 13 2013 01:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes? No, the cannon needs to fire 5x to destroy the 90hp widow mine. With Planetary nexus however they can 3 shot each widow mine. As others have said it's better to focus on the medivac, losing it that early is huge. It would take skill to kite the probes around planetary nexus to force the medivac to remain in range and be eventually destroyed.
Widow mines do have an impressive amount of HP for their cost and low attack priority. If they had a standard attack priority or moved slower, it would be fine, but five cannons shots per mine is a bit much.
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On March 13 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 01:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes? No, the cannon needs to fire 5x to destroy the 90hp widow mine. With Planetary nexus however they can 3 shot each widow mine. As others have said it's better to focus on the medivac, losing it that early is huge. It would take skill to kite the probes around planetary nexus to force the medivac to remain in range and be eventually destroyed. Widow mines do have an impressive amount of HP for their cost and low attack priority. If they had a standard attack priority or moved slower, it would be fine, but five cannons shots per mine is a bit much.
So what if you have to run your probes away? The cannon is a detector remember so the cannon will kill the dang window mine no matter what... If you dont pull your workers like any type of harass of course its going to do damage.
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Also this is a poor thread to begin with because you say that MVP's build worked extremely well against two foreigners... well duh... MVP is the better player and should win so lets not blame it on a dang build. Even in the Korean vs Korean there was a 50% win rate so I wouldnt say that its OP by any stretch of the imagination.
If you guys think that MVP isnt far better then MaNa or Grubby then you are poorly mistaken.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes?
Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine.
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On March 13 2013 03:01 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes? Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine.
The damage WM's deal vs the damage they can tank seems to be a little odd. WMs oneshot Oracles, but can tank 5 cannon shots?
I'm not complaining since I haven't even played yet, just was shocked during the IEM games when Oracle harass was completely negated by one (microless)WM per mineral line, while being harassed by WMs.
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On March 13 2013 03:01 Targe wrote:
Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine.
It's not as easy as "pull probes." You have almost no reaction time. It takes the probes two seconds to get out of the mine attack range, so you have only one second to react or you're going to lose half of them. Also, the medivac can outrun your probes and after dropping one mine, can run ahead of your fleeing workers, cut them off, and drop another mine in their path. Once you've comitted to running misclicking even one dodge slightly loses the game instantly as your bunched up running probe ball all explodes to splash damage. Or alternatively you can do the 300 APM probe split and try to run them in 8 different directions to minimize splash kills.
Blue flame hellions got nerfed for exactly this garbage, (forcing people to do 300 APM multiple-direction probe splits to not lose the game instantly) it's really only a matter of time before the nerf this. It's skill-less to execute and requires GM+ micro to not just immediately lose to.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 13 2013 04:39 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 03:01 Targe wrote:
Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine. It's not as easy as "pull probes." You have almost no reaction time. It takes the probes two seconds to get out of the mine attack range, so you have only one second to react or you're going to lose half of them. Also, the medivac can outrun your probes and after dropping one mine, can run ahead of your fleeing workers, cut them off, and drop another mine in their path. Once you've comitted to running misclicking even one dodge slightly loses the game instantly as your bunched up running probe ball all explodes to splash damage. Or alternatively you can do the 300 APM probe split and try to run them in 8 different directions to minimize splash kills. Blue flame hellions got nerfed for exactly this garbage, (forcing people to do 300 APM multiple-direction probe splits to not lose the game instantly) it's really only a matter of time before the nerf this. It's skill-less to execute and requires GM+ micro to not just immediately lose to.
*Check minimap*
*See drop*
*Pull probes*
That's the extent of it, I'm sure you're exaggerating their effectiveness. I know it requires you to be constantly looking at the minimap however the game is not totally balanced at levels of the game lower than the top so different strategies are able to work far more effectively at different levels of gameplay.
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On March 13 2013 05:55 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 04:39 Xequecal wrote:On March 13 2013 03:01 Targe wrote:
Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine. It's not as easy as "pull probes." You have almost no reaction time. It takes the probes two seconds to get out of the mine attack range, so you have only one second to react or you're going to lose half of them. Also, the medivac can outrun your probes and after dropping one mine, can run ahead of your fleeing workers, cut them off, and drop another mine in their path. Once you've comitted to running misclicking even one dodge slightly loses the game instantly as your bunched up running probe ball all explodes to splash damage. Or alternatively you can do the 300 APM probe split and try to run them in 8 different directions to minimize splash kills. Blue flame hellions got nerfed for exactly this garbage, (forcing people to do 300 APM multiple-direction probe splits to not lose the game instantly) it's really only a matter of time before the nerf this. It's skill-less to execute and requires GM+ micro to not just immediately lose to. *Check minimap* *See drop* *Pull probes* That's the extent of it, I'm sure you're exaggerating their effectiveness. I know it requires you to be constantly looking at the minimap however the game is not totally balanced at levels of the game lower than the top so different strategies are able to work far more effectively at different levels of gameplay.
You beat me to it.
Needs more scouting. XvP have to watch out for Oracle rush, putting up early spore crawler or bunker/turret.
So yes, at everyone needs to learn2play.
Edit: Before I forget, "Offense is the best defense"
Popping out two fast oracles will force the T to make Vikings first instead of medivac.
Pair up the oracles with a h. Phoniex to pre clear any possible mines in the mineral line.
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Edit: wrong mood while posting 
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EPT
