|
On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around.
I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here.
Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T?
|
On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. [...]
Yet, Terran, even as the weakest race, was still the most well designed. You must not confuse design with raw strength, it's quite unrelated. It didn't need ridiculous buffs like Zerg ones to still be competitive in the hands of very skilled and talented players, while everybody else was losing with it. That stands proof of how well designed Terran is.
David Kim said in a recent interview that he feels the 3 races are now complete, while only Terran was before. We'll see if that holds true :D
|
Completely agree with Terran being the best designed race in terms of functionality. But I don't consider the Zerg and Protoss complete to the degree that Terran is. Small but meaningful upgrades like 'Hi-sec auto tracking' 'Building armour' 'Durable materials' cannot be found in Z or P.
Predicted Balance Change:
1) Medivacs have techlab upgrade 'Mount Afterburners' : 50M 50G (60 seconds research time). Enough time for Z and P to build adequate defences. Also requiring Techlab would hinder numbers (initially)
But that is all I can foresee... the Imbarays will stay as they are, Z will have to learn to land blinding clouds on P deathballs.
As it stands the viper cloud can be cast at a range of 9 (the same as the High Templar feedback).
|
On March 11 2013 16:16 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Completely agree with Terran being the best designed race in terms of functionality. But I don't consider the Zerg and Protoss complete to the degree that Terran is. Small but meaningful upgrades like 'Hi-sec auto tracking' 'Building armour' 'Durable materials' cannot be found in Z or P.
Predicted Balance Change:
1) Medivacs have techlab upgrade 'Mount Afterburners' : 50M 50G (60 seconds research time). Enough time for Z and P to build adequate defences. Also requiring Techlab would hinder numbers (initially)
But that is all I can foresee... the Imbarays will stay as they are, Z will have to learn to land blinding clouds on P deathballs.
As it stands the viper cloud can be cast at a range of 9 (the same as the High Templar feedback).
Afaik Blinding Cloud doesn't have any effect on air units.
|
On March 11 2013 16:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 16:16 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Completely agree with Terran being the best designed race in terms of functionality. But I don't consider the Zerg and Protoss complete to the degree that Terran is. Small but meaningful upgrades like 'Hi-sec auto tracking' 'Building armour' 'Durable materials' cannot be found in Z or P.
Predicted Balance Change:
1) Medivacs have techlab upgrade 'Mount Afterburners' : 50M 50G (60 seconds research time). Enough time for Z and P to build adequate defences. Also requiring Techlab would hinder numbers (initially)
But that is all I can foresee... the Imbarays will stay as they are, Z will have to learn to land blinding clouds on P deathballs.
As it stands the viper cloud can be cast at a range of 9 (the same as the High Templar feedback).
Afaik Blinding Cloud doesn't have any effect on air units.
And neither you can against spell caster. 
|
On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T?
Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance.
If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got:
-Muta speed and regen buff
-Ultra damage buff
-Hydralisk speed buff
-Vipers
-Swarm Hosts
-Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech
Terran got:
-Siege Tank not needing an upgrade
-Reaper redesign
-Thor got new mode
-Widow Mine
-Hellbat
-Medivac speed boost
-Seeker Missile redesign
-Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy
Protoss got:
-Mothership Core
-Oracle
-Tempest
-Void Ray buff
-Hallucination not requiring an upgrade
-Carrier buff
So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen.
|
I think they really need to take a good look at the burrow time of widow mines. You can see them coming and fire on them with two stalkers and the mine is still able to burrow. I think the mines shouldn't be so much of an offensive but defensive weapon. If they were to increase the burrow time from 2 to 4 seconds, I feel like Protoss would have a fair amount of time to prevent their entire mineral line from being blow to shreds. Not to mention the amount of time you can no longer mine until gaining vision.
|
On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen.
You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread.
|
Game not even released and you guys want all the things making HOTS actually interesting nerfed.
Protoss talk about fair amount of time to prevent their entire mineral line from being blown to shreds when they have a FLYING unit that can kill 25+ workers in seconds given the energy that can escape whereas a widow mine is planted and usually dies where its planted. And I'm not even complaining about the oracle or the fact that Dream lost to First and cost me 60$ because of this oracle being pretty powerful, because I'm using it as a frame of reference to compare you all whining about Terran. Continue the way you OP T idiots do and we will end up with a snooze-fest game like WoL is currently where you just play Zerg or Protoss all day with the occasional spot of Terran.
|
On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread.
Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is.
Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you.
|
On March 11 2013 22:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread. Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is. Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you.
Hes not being hypocritical, hes not being in support of Terran race, just addressing your obvious Zerg bias.
|
On March 11 2013 22:58 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 22:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread. Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is. Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you. Hes not being hypocritical, hes not being in support of Terran race, just addressing your obvious Zerg bias.
Why are you even talking about something you know nothing about? I am talking about his other posts that I saw. I am not that biased because I am not playing much, but love watching pro scene, and love seeing good match, no matter who win in the end. I am not balance whining how everything is too strong/too weak, like majority of you "pros" are doing. I even admitted that I made a mistake about not listing Ovi speed and Burrow separately, something that 90% of people in these forums won't even think about.
|
On March 11 2013 07:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 06:35 Cloak wrote:On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time. It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection. The speed ability is a buff. Why would we pay for it? Did you pay something for faster regenerating and accelerating mutas? Did you pay something for better void rays? Design-wise, it's exactly (and I mean, litterally exactly) the same as Corruption or Void-Ray charge, an ability with a cooldown, no upgrade to research. While I agree that Corruption sucks and medivac boost is super good, that's not the point. Everyone's cry about how the buff is "free" and whatnot is nonsense and, let's face it, idiotic. It's a balance change in a whole new game, it's not supposed to entitle Protoss and Zergs to a compensation of some sort, get over it. Edit: Note that I'm not saying anything on the potential OPness of said boost ability. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and David Kim already said that they were looking at it anyway.
It's a caster with a cooldown ability, like if Ghosts could EMP on cooldown and spam their energy on Snipe and Cloak. Voids and Mutas were underutilized and needed to be revamped. Medivacs were certainly not underutilized.
|
On March 11 2013 22:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread. Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is. Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you.
You also forgot Spores not requiring an evo chamber, cheaper dark shrine and if you count new abilities on old units separately you have to count new abilities on new units separately as well which would result in a very different picture.
I am not saying terran didn't get their fair share or that counting changes for each race and comparing them is a good way to discuss gameplay but that's what you got yourself into with making an angry low effort post like this.
At the end of WOL I think it was pretty obvious that terran gameplay was very one dimensional since early aggression was not really an option anymore. I think the medivac change is one of the very good adjustments to this problem Blizzard made but probably it's too strong in it's current form. I'm wondering if the old medivac before the speed nerf would still be considered overpowered. However a big nerf to this ability is not a good idea because it's a change that doesn't effect only early aggression it also affects long macro games and the ability for terran to compete in the late game. If we want to make terran weaker in the early we should do it in a way that doesn't hurt terrans in the macro game as well.
On March 11 2013 23:21 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 07:20 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 06:35 Cloak wrote:On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time. It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection. The speed ability is a buff. Why would we pay for it? Did you pay something for faster regenerating and accelerating mutas? Did you pay something for better void rays? Design-wise, it's exactly (and I mean, litterally exactly) the same as Corruption or Void-Ray charge, an ability with a cooldown, no upgrade to research. While I agree that Corruption sucks and medivac boost is super good, that's not the point. Everyone's cry about how the buff is "free" and whatnot is nonsense and, let's face it, idiotic. It's a balance change in a whole new game, it's not supposed to entitle Protoss and Zergs to a compensation of some sort, get over it. Edit: Note that I'm not saying anything on the potential OPness of said boost ability. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and David Kim already said that they were looking at it anyway. It's a caster with a cooldown ability, like if Ghosts could EMP on cooldown and spam their energy on Snipe and Cloak. Voids and Mutas were underutilized and needed to be revamped. Medivacs were certainly not underutilized.
Medivacs weren't but drop play was.
|
On March 11 2013 21:47 Obamanation666 wrote:
I think they really need to take a good look at the burrow time of widow mines. You can see them coming and fire on them with two stalkers and the mine is still able to burrow. I think the mines shouldn't be so much of an offensive but defensive weapon. If they were to increase the burrow time from 2 to 4 seconds, I feel like Protoss would have a fair amount of time to prevent their entire mineral line from being blow to shreds. Not to mention the amount of time you can no longer mine until gaining vision.
This is in fact the easiest way to balance the mine. With 4 seconds burrow time they should be harder to use offensively until the Drilling Claws upgrade is researched.
|
On March 11 2013 23:22 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 22:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread. Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is. Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you. You also forgot Spores not requiring an evo chamber, cheaper dark shrine and if you count new abilities on old units separately you have to count new abilities on new units separately as well which would result in a very different picture. I am not saying terran didn't get their fair share or that counting changes for each race and comparing them is a good way to discuss gameplay but that's what you got yourself into with making an angry low effort post like this. At the end of WOL I think it was pretty obvious that terran gameplay was very one dimensional since early aggression was not really an option anymore. I think the medivac change is one of the very good adjustments to this problem Blizzard made but probably it's too strong in it's current form. I'm wondering if the old medivac before the speed nerf would still be considered overpowered. However a big nerf to this ability is not a good idea because it's a change that doesn't effect only early aggression it also affects long macro games and the ability for terran to compete in the late game. If we want to make terran weaker in the early we should do it in a way that doesn't hurt terrans in the macro game as well. Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 23:21 Cloak wrote:On March 11 2013 07:20 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 06:35 Cloak wrote:On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time. It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection. The speed ability is a buff. Why would we pay for it? Did you pay something for faster regenerating and accelerating mutas? Did you pay something for better void rays? Design-wise, it's exactly (and I mean, litterally exactly) the same as Corruption or Void-Ray charge, an ability with a cooldown, no upgrade to research. While I agree that Corruption sucks and medivac boost is super good, that's not the point. Everyone's cry about how the buff is "free" and whatnot is nonsense and, let's face it, idiotic. It's a balance change in a whole new game, it's not supposed to entitle Protoss and Zergs to a compensation of some sort, get over it. Edit: Note that I'm not saying anything on the potential OPness of said boost ability. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and David Kim already said that they were looking at it anyway. It's a caster with a cooldown ability, like if Ghosts could EMP on cooldown and spam their energy on Snipe and Cloak. Voids and Mutas were underutilized and needed to be revamped. Medivacs were certainly not underutilized. Medivacs weren't but drop play was.
Well, yeah I made a mistake, also forgot some other things too, like Terran Starport and Factory units sharing armor upgrades and Medivac upgrade for more efficient healing. My point is still there though, that all of the races got pretty good stuff, that is yet to be explored, few months of Beta certainly wasn't enough, especially because the game wasn't stable(balance updates every few weeks), and that every kind of whining how something is overpowered right now is pretty much pointless.
|
On the constructive end of things - widow mines/afterburners seem pretty good is the consensus here, yes?
I personally love Polt's Reaper into WM/Medivac opening in TvP - but maybe that's just because it won so many games in king-of-the-beta. The thing that really gets me about it is that it seems to have a very early expand and Medivacs way before more passive openings can get off the ground.
I don't have any links to these builds, but check out any game of Polt TvP in the recent history of day9tv.blip.tv . He opens Marine/Reaper - Expand - WM drop every single game (more or less).
The only games I saw him lose (think he lost one more, but I can't remember what it was) was due to VR allins - but this is primarily due to Factory positioning (it got sniped in one game), and WM positioning (Polt got WMs sniped because he placed them out front and away from his army).
On March 11 2013 21:47 Obamanation666 wrote:
I think they really need to take a good look at the burrow time of widow mines. You can see them coming and fire on them with two stalkers and the mine is still able to burrow. I think the mines shouldn't be so much of an offensive but defensive weapon. If they were to increase the burrow time from 2 to 4 seconds, I feel like Protoss would have a fair amount of time to prevent their entire mineral line from being blow to shreds. Not to mention the amount of time you can no longer mine until gaining vision.
The biggest problem here is that Stalkers (the unit of choice against this tactic) deal very, very low dps (less than a marine). A more "sensible" burrow time for widow mines in TvP is hard to come by because "deflectable when attacked by stalkers" and "deflectable when attacked by probes" are closer than most people would like to believe.
|
I think someone touched on it, but I don't think anyone is considering the possible viability of getting up some phoenix before that point to shoot down medivacs. Coupled with an oracle you could shoot the marines as they drop out or just put a revelation on the medivac so you know where it runs away to, which could also just force it to go home. I think they may nerf it slightly, but afterburners are not going away.
|
You are taking the worlds greatest players and then saying a unit is broken because they can use it to its maximum proficiency. That does not label a broken unit that labels a great player who knows how to use a unit. I don't see anyone complaining about how Protoss can use every single warp-in they have with a warp prism in someones main... Effectively warping a small army into their base for just one 200 mineral unit. So lets not talk about medivacs either. Medivacs need the speed boost because Terran in so many engagements in WoL would lose all of their medivacs because they were either too fast or too slow. The speed boost gives the Terran more control over the unit. Hey, and guess what? Having to recreate a 100/100 unit all the time isn't fun. If it was a Protoss unit you wouldnt be complaining at all. So honestly stop QQ (which is what this is) and try to find a way to stop it because Terran Players have had to put up with so much bull its not even funny.
|
I just hope Protoss will have the ability to be aggressive in PvT without it being an all-in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
