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On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again.
Free and easy is Blizzard's new approach. Another example is the new reapers, or mutas, they generate their health for no reason, no cost and it doesn't require decision or action. Even new or redesigned casters (MSc, Vipers, Ravens) pop up with all the abilities available. Maybe cutting difficulties is blizzard's way to reduce the gap between beginners and those who play WoL for +2 years ? I don't know.
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I like the idea of outrageous units... just spread it out more.
let's see an Ultra morph into mega-baneling!
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The game isnt even out and people are already whining about speed medivacs....seriously
Give the protoss some time to adjust to it before nerfing medivacs.
(And if it has to be a nerf,just increase the damage the medivacs take during the speed boost.)
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On March 11 2013 03:16 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Free and easy is Blizzard's new approach. Another example is the new reapers, or mutas, they generate their health for no reason, no cost and it doesn't require decision or action. Even new or redesigned casters (MSc, Vipers, Ravens) pop up with all the abilities available. Maybe cutting difficulties is blizzard's way to reduce the gap between beginners and those who play WoL for +2 years ? I don't know.
I don't think that's it. Upgrades like siege mode generally exist to slow down certain timings. Blizzard just wants to make a faster paced game with HotS, WoL as becoming way too slow and passive at the end, much due to their own balancing prowess, actually. In HotS, they decided to remove cumbersome upgrades, increase speed on units (both of those you mentioned, got a speed boost with their "free regen", plus the medivac), lower tech requirements for a lot of Zerg stuff and all that. It will lead to a much faster game. And generally more multitask intensive.
I think that's their mindset and I hope it'll work out that way, but we can't really tell for now 
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On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered.
Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps.
1) make a forge
2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line
3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone
4) Profit
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On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again.
Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport.
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On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport.
Take note that some people might not get your sarcasm — unfortunate truth in dealing with masses.
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On March 11 2013 05:02 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered. Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps. 1) make a forge 2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line 3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone 4) Profit
A cannon in the mineral line just like T (bunker or turret) and Z (spore/spine) do against a drop?
Heresy! Any such deviation is an OUTRAGE! Speedvacs need to be removed!
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On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport.
Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time.
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I think the ability in itself is fine but they should make the cooldown long enough so that you have to decide to either use the ability for a quick entry or for a safe retreat. This change should make those drops either much more risky or much less easier to respond to.
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On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time.
FreeUnitCraft 2
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Maybe at the very least make it so they cant use the ability while taking dmg so they can not just automatically get away?
I see both mines and medivac getting severe nerfs
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 11 2013 05:02 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered. Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps. 1) make a forge 2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line 3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone 4) Profit
5). Die to huge bio pushes off three bases because you have spent extra cash on structures and units just to hold a timing from Terran that is now much more potent than in WoL.
This isn't like late game Zerg that can afford to spend all that cash.
I love all these simplistic breakdowns of everything. I await a pro or a good theorycrafter to come up with something cool. Remember the 'counter' to 1/1/1 was a mystery until people discovered 1 gate fe and nexus first builds could hold it.
I rewatched some of IEM yesterday and the issue to me isn't defending your main and natural, but establishing a third. Parting is a phenomenal player and still was so close to dying to Yoda in that epic game, and his defensive positioning was top notch that game
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On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time.
That would be so terrible. Sure, it's nice for the first 4... But then you realize that medivacs take up supply and they just keep on coming. You'll have to send in wave after wave of the non-attacking medivac into the enemy or die the death of an infinite supply block.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Before speed medivacs get nerfed I think we need to see some more experimentation out of Protoss. We've seen that, if a Protoss does standard WoL openings, they are going to be disadvantaged due to speed medivacs and Widow Mine+Medivac openings.
What about Stargate openings? This is the obvious counter-tech if you are afraid of Medivacs. There is nothing a Medivac can do to escape a Phoenix. At least on maps like Newkirk City Phoenix would be an extremely solid defense to them with all the open air space between the two player's bases. And they come out in time to defend Widow Mine drops (also you can pick up Widow Mines during their 3 second burrow animation).
Between Oracles, Photon Overcharge, and Time Warp, Protoss has a lot of new tools in holding off the 7-9 minute bio pressure that made Stargate openings so flimsy. We already saw MC hold off the standard stim timing off of Stargate in WoL (against players like Polt no less).
I think it's an area that needs to be explored before we say Protoss is too weak against the new Medivac.
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On March 11 2013 06:06 Msr wrote:
Maybe at the very least make it so they cant use the ability while taking dmg so they can not just automatically get away?
I see both mines and medivac getting severe nerfs
Or maybe that they can't drop and load units while having a speed buff? Don't really know if Medivacs are that imbalanced, just throwing out ideas. We will see in a few months or so.
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On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time.
It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection.
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On March 11 2013 06:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered. Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps. 1) make a forge 2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line 3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone 4) Profit 5). Die to huge bio pushes off three bases because you have spent extra cash on structures and units just to hold a timing from Terran that is now much more potent than in WoL. This isn't like late game Zerg that can afford to spend all that cash. I love all these simplistic breakdowns of everything. I await a pro or a good theorycrafter to come up with something cool. Remember the 'counter' to 1/1/1 was a mystery until people discovered 1 gate fe and nexus first builds could hold it. I rewatched some of IEM yesterday and the issue to me isn't defending your main and natural, but establishing a third. Parting is a phenomenal player and still was so close to dying to Yoda in that epic game, and his defensive positioning was top notch that game
oh my god 300 minerals so expensive... unless you never get upgrades or stalkers?
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oh my god 300 minerals so expensive... unless you never get upgrades or stalkers?
How exactly does 1 cannon behind a mineral line counter solo or double medivac drops to the main? You can either destroy the cannon with ease or just drop outside its range and take out tech buildings ad nauseum and other harass. Cannons are really only a late game solution to drop play. They work when you're on 3 or more bases and have tons of extra minerals and are otherwise supply capped, and that's when you don't put 1 cannon at your expansions, you put about 6.
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On March 11 2013 06:35 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time. It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection.
The speed ability is a buff. Why would we pay for it? Did you pay something for faster regenerating and accelerating mutas? Did you pay something for better void rays?
Design-wise, it's exactly (and I mean, litterally exactly) the same as Corruption or Void-Ray charge, an ability with a cooldown, no upgrade to research. While I agree that Corruption sucks and medivac boost is super good, that's not the point. Everyone's cry about how the buff is "free" and whatnot is nonsense and, let's face it, idiotic.
It's a balance change in a whole new game, it's not supposed to entitle Protoss and Zergs to a compensation of some sort, get over it.
Edit: Note that I'm not saying anything on the potential OPness of said boost ability. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and David Kim already said that they were looking at it anyway.
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EPT
