EPTThe second main issue, is that until you have a big Stalker ball/Blink and a large amount of units in the front to not just straight up die to stim pushes, the drops will happen. No amount of positioning stops it due to the low amount of units and the high speed of what you're trying to stop. I just think that's a bad way to have things, where the default answer is "limit damage" as opposed to prevention.
IEM Mvp's widow mines and afterburn vs Protoss - Page 10
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Supah
708 Posts
The second main issue, is that until you have a big Stalker ball/Blink and a large amount of units in the front to not just straight up die to stim pushes, the drops will happen. No amount of positioning stops it due to the low amount of units and the high speed of what you're trying to stop. I just think that's a bad way to have things, where the default answer is "limit damage" as opposed to prevention. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
If you lose to them it simply means that you're losing because you're being outplayed. Period. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
the OPness of the new medivac really gets in your face in that series... I was laughing at the casters trying to explain why PartinG was always behind without calling the medivacs OP. Hahahaha My predctions for MLG, -zerg: gets crushed; -protoss: there will be a looooot of 1-base all ins (especially stargate all-ins) in the PvT matchup; -terran: wins any standard game against opponents of same level. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 11 2013 06:45 GTPGlitch wrote: oh my god 300 minerals so expensive... unless you never get upgrades or stalkers? Going stalker heavy is historically pretty bad in straight-up engagements as the game progresses. That's why WoL builds tend to keep Stalker counts as low as they can, especially when the Chargelot/Ups style became popular, to save the gas and tech up quicker, the same approach isn't going to work as well given stalkers bad DPS, and medivac's increased manouverability means we as a race may have to re-evaluate our approach. 150 for a forge that you mightn't use at that period, and cannons in mineral lines for something that mightn't even happen. Cannons which are static and extremely overrated as drop defence anyway until the late game/in conjunction with templars. That period of the game is critical for Protoss, as they need to establish upgrades, and or get their splash damage out. It's like telling Zergs to spine up all over the place to avoid dying to pressures. Yeah they won't die, but they'll be in a bad spot for the lategame for spending that cash/converting drones to buildings. Equally I don't feel this is 'broken' yet, but it's still worth keeping an eye on. 'Build forge and cannons' isn't particularly a good solution, at least imo. | ||
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TheSwagger
United States92 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
hallucinated units such as probe. But that would require a stargate for an oracle harass opening since the MsC has no detection. I don't see why Protoss can't 1/1/1 as well? | ||
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GorGor
78 Posts
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
Coming from a Protoss point of view I really look forward to the challenge of shutting down the MVP style (albeit at Diamond level). | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On March 11 2013 09:43 GorGor wrote: I want to see how stargate openings fit into this discussion. I would like to see how void ray/oracle harass at the terran base fits into the timings for the terran drop harass. If the toss can "pin" the terran instead of being pinned himself then he can open a variety of simple defenses for drops, such as photon overcharge or intercepting medivacs with phoenix, especially after they have already boosted into the base. I would also like to see how forge/cannon play will develop in the matchup as it surely will. The FFE in WOL PvZ took about a year to be explored enough to become more or less standard, and there is still a pretty vague idea of what is "standard" for terran wall offs/run by prevention in TvZ so surely there will be development in cannon placement in HOTS PvT. Also DT harass has some potential for abusive timings if the terran rushes for medivacs and neglects detection, this doesn't include MSC harass or blink stalker timings. Ultimately I feel as if WOL style protoss play is less than effective against new HOTS mechanics then it would be refreshing to see the paradigm inverted and to watch protoss evolve into the agressors in the matchup with their new abilities for harass. Maybe seeing oracle/tempest combos (as the revelation ability was intended) from more aggressive protoss. Throughout WOL the onus for aggression was on the Terran to "stop" the protoss from achieving deathball status which can hit as soon as 15 minutes if the terran lets it happen. If that fundamental truth of the matchup is proven to no longer hold due to terran multasking being more rewarding in the mid-late game ultimately more robust and diverse strategy will develop from it. Simply crying "NERF IT NAO BLIZZARD!!!!11" really makes me sad as although I don't feel if the final WOL balance was perfect I do feel as if the journey/development of the meta around certain standards was far more interesting than if Blizzard was to simply insta-nerf strategies before they could be fully understood. I too would like to see how stargate could be implemented in the PvT matchup. the problem is that it needs time do develop new builds and strategies. And with HotS closed till MLG, I expect a lot of protoss players to just die before developing any stargate play that is capable of countering the medivac boost. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12025 Posts
On March 11 2013 10:03 rpgalon wrote: I too would like to see how stargate could be implemented in the PvT matchup. the problem is that it needs time do develop new builds and strategies. And with HotS closed till MLG, I expect a lot of protoss players to just die before developing any stargate play that is capable of countering the medivac boost. HoTS isn't closed until MLG, it goes up Tuesday :p | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On March 11 2013 07:53 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: This week-end will be a shit-storm, the MLG terran lineup is made of nothing but huge korean names, meanwhile the ugly zergs and the girly protoss will be represented by a koreans/foreigners mix. It'll be ugly, and the following nerfbat hit even uglier. Wow didn't even realize haha. Especially Zergs: only Life and Leenock, and maybe Stephano. I wouldn't call them favorite against the only Terrans in the lineup to not have a major title: Last, Innovation (lawl), and Flash (lololawl). This event will be a fun slaughter, but at least Zergs will get their much requested buff. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
That being said, I don't like the ability in its current form. Static defence against drops has always been hit or miss. The medivacs have always been able to just find a different opening in base defences (covering every angle with static defence is prohibitively expensive). With the speed boost, this becomes easier and quicker. Should a nerf be needed I'd prefer a risk/reward approach. Make the medivac move at half speed once the boost has expired. This introduces an element of stategy on when to use the boost, its use carries some risk, and allows two parameters to be tuned for balance (cooldown of the boost, and the speed penalty). | ||
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Swordland
232 Posts
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge? With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs. This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Whether the P can deal with the spaced out drops with a mutliprong, is another issue entirely. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote: Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays? Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge? With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs. This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Gom TvT and then Swarm season both instances of much too slow patching? I think Wombat is pretty on the money. The matchup seems a lot more fragile with how the lategame develops than I think others believe but that definitely needs to be tested by more matches. | ||
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Swordland
232 Posts
Im just saying if P and Z has new tools, T should too, and if T does not have speedvacs and WM, what will T be? Just the same as WOL? Speed is fine. Maybe a little nerf like requiring energy or something is... ok I guess... Leave WM alone though....with proper micro and map awareness WM can be dealt just fine.....I am tired of seeing Terrans nerfed, and I play random now lol Or maybe since P and Z always complain about T...just remove the race altogether lol | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote: Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays? Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge? With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs. This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... If you're going to count ultralisks, you should include reapers for Terran. Both not new units, but changed significantly for HoTS. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
Widowsmines idk - I think vs toss they are kind of ok, but vs zerg they really severely limit gameplay options, which seems pretty bad to me. Also since terrans are finally figuring out that making huge amounts of orbitals is not only equal to having many scvs but far superior due to the added scans and the ability to supersaturate any mineral line... Well I think some slight adjustments to the mules might finally be in order. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote: Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays? Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge? With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs. This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. | ||
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