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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On March 10 2013 00:49 uh-oh wrote: oracle's revelation ability Huh, did not even consider that as a possible solution. Not saying its THE solution, but its better to think of possible solutions rather than talking nerb bat PR release. Just as a counterpoint, are zeegs having probs wWith drops? Or is it all about reaper, hellion, widow mine? | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On March 10 2013 13:02 wUndertUnge wrote: I don't think Z has as big issue with drops as P. Sure dealing with them got harder, but not that dramatically. Except early reapers, which maybe obvious thing to look at in TvZ, there is no particular unit/thing which is "broken". It's just that terran became better at attacking, harrassing, while they are a lot safer now. Just overall better. A ton of aggresive and harrass zerg strategies are just dead in hots now. That's little sad. Any harass/early pressure/ling runby is very risky now.Just as a counterpoint, are zeegs having probs wWith drops? Or is it all about reaper, hellion, widow mine? | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
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silentsod
United States198 Posts
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote: I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal. Not to mention I really think P players need to invest in cannons earlier. Or for example, in WoL, Nexus first into forge and 1 cannon was really popular and effective 8-10 months ago, but dropped out of style. Why? I have no clue. With photon overcharge they are even more secure. I think P just need to adjust their gameplay a little more. As a high masters T in beta, I've been shut down many times with early mines...and I'm way behind. I think a large majority of P think, "gee, I have MSC now" that means i can 1 gate expand and harass now without any repercussions. Sorry, but I feel many P are using the MSC far too offensively than what it was intended to be: Many wins for me come from P moving out with both stalker, zealot and MSC and are left completely open while I just bunk up and helion and/or mine drop in their main. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On March 10 2013 03:26 Giriath wrote: You were refuting his argument that making static defenses wasn't an option by making a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. And now you're back where you began, apparently having decided to ignore that argument. I think you aren't understanding the difference between making a comparison and a direct comparison. The races are different most of the time, it is very difficult to make a direct comparison. For example, cannon can shoot ground and air while turrets only shoot air. But they are both static defenses which help with drops. So they can be compared and discussed as static defense. But you can never compare them directly because they have other functions which are different. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote: Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches. Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds. There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new." If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them. Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it. From what you are saying, Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn... My God, what has TL become? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: From what you are saying, Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn... My God, what has TL become? No! | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
On March 10 2013 14:28 SirPinky wrote: Not to mention I really think P players need to invest in cannons earlier. Or for example, in WoL, Nexus first into forge and 1 cannon was really popular and effective 8-10 months ago, but dropped out of style. Why? I have no clue. With photon overcharge they are even more secure. I think P just need to adjust their gameplay a little more. As a high masters T in beta, I've been shut down many times with early mines...and I'm way behind. I think a large majority of P think, "gee, I have MSC now" that means i can 1 gate expand and harass now without any repercussions. Sorry, but I feel many P are using the MSC far too offensively than what it was intended to be: Many wins for me come from P moving out with both stalker, zealot and MSC and are left completely open while I just bunk up and helion and/or mine drop in their main. It wasn't secure, because an SCV all in absolutely rolls it over. It was good against gas openers, but as 1 Rax or CC first became more and more common, FFE PvT fell out of disuse really quickly. It wouldn't work well now, because unless you do a full wall at your ramp, Hellions don't care about a cannon or two at the front at all. Further, neither do Reapers. I think the main issue is, until you get Blink and enough Stalkers to kill a Speedvac, you switch from deterring drops to just accepting them as a reality and limiting your losses. Parting displayed exceptional map awareness, but for the average player that may be very difficult. And even then, he was limited to 2 bases for a LONG time. Blink, Storm, Charge, and 2/2 were already halfway to finishing before his third CC was even up. And then he had to gamble for a quick fourth in order to even up economically. Speedvacs not only force P to econ slower, but they also mean T can forego scans widening the economic gap even more. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I hate to say this as Terran, but I would be glad to see my race nerfed, just to see what kind of post this would trigger avilo to make. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: From what you are saying, Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn... My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered. | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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ant-1
Canada149 Posts
On March 10 2013 13:47 Tuczniak wrote: I don't think Z has as big issue with drops as P. Sure dealing with them got harder, but not that dramatically. Except early reapers, which maybe obvious thing to look at in TvZ, there is no particular unit/thing which is "broken". It's just that terran became better at attacking, harrassing, while they are a lot safer now. Just overall better. A ton of aggresive and harrass zerg strategies are just dead in hots now. That's little sad. Any harass/early pressure/ling runby is very risky now. That's my take on HotS too: Terran cannot be attacked early game and Z & P are forced to turtle until quite late. Which is not very fun to play or watch. As for the people suggesting cannons against drops: they were not very effective in WoL, they still are not in HotS. You cannot cover much ground with one, and if you make 2 or more that'll cost you too much. Maybe you can prevent your probes from being slaughtered, but anyway you can move them out of the way, and the drops are more about destroying key tech buildings or nexus. And for people suggesting air: well phoenix do shit damage against medivacs so basically they can still drop, and even if it deters the terran because you made like 3-4 of them, good luck against the 10-13 minutes timing with no AoE and phonixes... So maybe protosses will find ways to not die to speedrops but it will mostly involve what we all hate: turtling. Plus a single mistake will cost P the game (like an MsC out of position). | ||
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Koesader
Netherlands424 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 11 2013 01:41 Koesader wrote: Since protoss as a race can't cost-effectively split its armies, I think giving the boosts a 25 energy cost will fix things. Now protoss can feedback them so we won't have to see speeddrops outmanouvering protoss. And the fact that f-in mines can enter dropships should be fixed as well. Or make the boost a tech lab upgrade. With fusion core requirement. But its still fun gameplay with mines in drops. Why ruin the fun, isntead give protoss some fun buff | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On March 11 2013 01:41 Koesader wrote: Since protoss as a race can't cost-effectively split its armies, I think giving the boosts a 25 energy cost will fix things. Now protoss can feedback them so we won't have to see speeddrops outmanouvering protoss. And the fact that f-in mines can enter dropships should be fixed as well. Or make the boost a tech lab upgrade. With fusion core requirement. Both terrible suggestions. You can out-play Medivacs with proper scouting and map awareness by having units in position (or that thing that, you know, allows you to warp in units anywhere on the map) to kill the drop before it unloads; making it easier for you to crush them in any way you want doesn't promote interesting game-play. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On March 11 2013 00:48 ZenithM wrote: Oh god... I hate to say this as Terran, but I would be glad to see my race nerfed, just to see what kind of post this would trigger avilo to make. I guess biased, as usual. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On March 11 2013 02:01 Foxxan wrote: But its still fun gameplay with mines in drops. Why ruin the fun, isntead give protoss some fun buff Exactly. You shouldn't only consider balance when adjusting units, you should also consider what it will do to the gameplay and the players' and viewers' enjoyment of it. The new Terran drops are fun to do and watch. If they're too strong against Protoss, buff something in the Protoss arsenal that will make them weaker but at least as fun, e.g. buff Blink somehow. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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