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IMO, the afterburners ability is bringing in the necessary "danger" element back into TvX matchups.
Many times we've seen a GSL game turn around due to zero static defense at the drop location(s). Maybe HOTS style "wants" people to start investing in static defense more, when taking distant bases.
Also consider if the Terran player is bringing in an entire "doom" drop. Well how much of an army would you expect to be at home? I've lost many a game when I tried to go all drop fancy, then the toss decides "F it" and just takes everything they have and streamrolls my base. My army's divided up between what's at home, and what's in the drop - easy to see that his concentrated army, vs my split up one, is going to annihilate.
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On March 09 2013 13:36 Highways wrote:
Link to VODs?
The IEM page doesn't make it easy to just find the VOD's and watch them.
Here's their youtube channel, but the games that people are talking about here, aren't uploaded yet:
http://www.youtube.com/user/esltv/videos?view=0
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On March 09 2013 13:04 ETisME wrote:
it's MVP vs Mana, anything would have looked imbalanced lol
Oh god his matches against nerchio were depressing enough.
This thread bodes well for future LRs.
edit: oh god this is going all gomtvt again. "Dropping cost-efficient units that do a high amount of damage quickly is clearly more difficult than splitting a less efficient army, especially with all the deadspace on maps!"
x.x We're not going to see constructive criticism in a month if drop speed proves broken or if map designers have lost sight of fundamentals. Community gets the imbalance it deserves.
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On March 09 2013 13:56 D_K_night wrote:
IMO, the afterburners ability is bringing in the necessary "danger" element back into TvX matchups.
Many times we've seen a GSL game turn around due to zero static defense at the drop location(s). Maybe HOTS style "wants" people to start investing in static defense more, when taking distant bases.
Also consider if the Terran player is bringing in an entire "doom" drop. Well how much of an army would you expect to be at home? I've lost many a game when I tried to go all drop fancy, then the toss decides "F it" and just takes everything they have and streamrolls my base. My army's divided up between what's at home, and what's in the drop - easy to see that his concentrated army, vs my split up one, is going to annihilate.
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses.
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I don't think Protoss can open Colossi anymore unless they take a very defensive posture and have a Colossus in both their main and nat. I prefer to open Observers into Double Forge > Storm/Charge, taking a third after stopping the initial Medivac aggression timing. You're a bit behind economically, but your probe count doesn't get destroyed by drops, you can defend, catch up, and with proper control the Protoss army is stronger in the late game. I haven't had any troubles against new Medivacs. I'm more fearful of mech into sky terran, tbh.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
Be interested to see how this develops. As it stands they do look potent, but equally I do like the intensity of HoTS thus far
As a Protoss player I'm concerned that I'll be forced to stick around in my base, or do pre-medivac allins though, but nothing too major. Some of the maps today were also ideal for that kind of drop play, so it looked even stronger
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Just wait a couple of years for the game to get balanced. In the meanwhile I'll just practice my macro and mechanics; ironically the only ones who will get screwed are really high level players.
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On March 09 2013 14:11 zhurai wrote:
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses.
Well, a full medivac of marines (total cost: 500/100) will destroy two cannons easily, maybe even three but you might lose the medivac if it gets target fired. That's 300-450 minerals, then they just start to rape workers, and I mean rape them. Buildings can also get smashed if there are marauders in there. It's crazy how much better the medivac is than the dropship in BW: for 100/100 you get either a medic and a dropship for free, or a dropship and a medic for free. Plus there is no need to waste cargo space with any support units since your dropship is the medic. Now that hellbats are bio, there is literally never any reason to not build medivacs.
Granted losing a medivac full of units is painful, but it still costs only slightly more than one colossus.
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On March 09 2013 16:50 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 14:11 zhurai wrote:
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses. Well, a full medivac of marines (total cost: 500/100) will destroy two cannons easily, maybe even three but you might lose the medivac if it gets target fired. That's 300-450 minerals, then they just start to rape workers, and I mean rape them. Buildings can also get smashed if there are marauders in there. It's crazy how much better the medivac is than the dropship in BW: for 100/100 you get either a medic and a dropship for free, or a dropship and a medic for free. Plus there is no need to waste cargo space with any support units since your dropship is the medic. Now that hellbats are bio, there is literally never any reason to not build medivacs. Granted losing a medivac full of units is painful, but it still costs only slightly more than one colossus.
Can you show me a replay where a medivac flies into 2-3 cannons and doesn't die before dropping 3 marines?
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The problem is just that the protosses we saw are masters in defending against drops. Mana is one of the best european toss and considered best tvp in europe. He knows since 2 years how to deal with drops. The same goes for grubby that was destroyed by mvps after burn droping. Sure koreans are better than europeans but not in this stage of the game when it comes to defending drops. I guess the best koreans parting, mc, creator can do a bit better here but mvp would also destroy them with this drop style. I also saw rain falling against a drop play that was without afterburn so it can happen to everyone somtimes. But mvp won all games i watched by it and was never punished for a single drop he made.
Another consideradation is that protoss alrdy know the hots style of defending drops with ms core purify, they cant do much better here. The only way would be blink stalkers but its not rly a good opening and mass marauder action can kill you whitout collossi or fast storm.
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I think its time for protosses to look into possible skytoss timings and defend drops with phoenixes and oracle's revelation ability, just a guess but both units are pretty fast and phoenixes can catch up to afterburning medivacs. I've seen some phoenix zealot colossi builds so punishing drops or 10 minute timing can be done with +1 range phoenixes, photon overcharge and oracle pulsar beam?
I'm just a plat protoss so maybe some better players could help look into that?
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On March 09 2013 17:31 Donger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 16:50 lowercase wrote:On March 09 2013 14:11 zhurai wrote:
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses. Well, a full medivac of marines (total cost: 500/100) will destroy two cannons easily, maybe even three but you might lose the medivac if it gets target fired. That's 300-450 minerals, then they just start to rape workers, and I mean rape them. Buildings can also get smashed if there are marauders in there. It's crazy how much better the medivac is than the dropship in BW: for 100/100 you get either a medic and a dropship for free, or a dropship and a medic for free. Plus there is no need to waste cargo space with any support units since your dropship is the medic. Now that hellbats are bio, there is literally never any reason to not build medivacs. Granted losing a medivac full of units is painful, but it still costs only slightly more than one colossus. Can you show me a replay where a medivac flies into 2-3 cannons and doesn't die before dropping 3 marines?
The problem is that the Medivac has dual roles. It is necessary for healing, so the ability to drop essentially becomes an free extra for Terran. So you'd expect your opponent to have Medivacs regardless of whether or not they plan to drop. Dropping 450 minerals into Photon Cannons that could be Gateways is incredibly wasteful in the mid game on two bases to protect just one area from Medivacs when your opponent might not even drop.
To put it into perspective, imagine if Protoss had access to Oracles from the Gateway. They are so dangerous that you'd have to build turrets and put Widow Mines around for fear that the Protoss would warp in Oracles at anytime and decimate your mineral lines. And that would weaken Terran greatly.
And that is what is happening here, you can't just force Protoss to build cannons and not expect Protoss to be weakened greatly. Speed Medivacs is a huge buff to the mid-game harass of Terran, which Terran Bio didn't need. Bio needed a late game buff instead.
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Honestly, I think the real problem is the Widow Mine's fairly high HP total for such a cheap unit, making it near impossible for Protoss to kill them before they burrow.
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No protoss went for semi-many oracles to use as defense or harass.
To have them through the game, you even have revelation , constant vision, rly rly good
AND
as protoss, with mothership core, you do not need to invest in ANY sentrie, this is TRUE STORY.
Sentires cost alots of gas, lots. Here immediately we have extra gas to put on oracles or other tech.
PRotoss played WOL style, bigtime.
I really like the medivac speed, i like the widowmines, it will keep the game have a good variation and constant things can happen
Imagine if protoss instead of sentires and oracles and no fast colossous. PRotoss can make alot of blink stalkers, even take a fast third with his mcore
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On March 10 2013 01:11 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 17:31 Donger wrote:On March 09 2013 16:50 lowercase wrote:On March 09 2013 14:11 zhurai wrote:
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses. Well, a full medivac of marines (total cost: 500/100) will destroy two cannons easily, maybe even three but you might lose the medivac if it gets target fired. That's 300-450 minerals, then they just start to rape workers, and I mean rape them. Buildings can also get smashed if there are marauders in there. It's crazy how much better the medivac is than the dropship in BW: for 100/100 you get either a medic and a dropship for free, or a dropship and a medic for free. Plus there is no need to waste cargo space with any support units since your dropship is the medic. Now that hellbats are bio, there is literally never any reason to not build medivacs. Granted losing a medivac full of units is painful, but it still costs only slightly more than one colossus. Can you show me a replay where a medivac flies into 2-3 cannons and doesn't die before dropping 3 marines? The problem is that the Medivac has dual roles. It is necessary for healing, so the ability to drop essentially becomes an free extra for Terran. So you'd expect your opponent to have Medivacs regardless of whether or not they plan to drop. Dropping 450 minerals into Photon Cannons that could be Gateways is incredibly wasteful in the mid game on two bases to protect just one area from Medivacs when your opponent might not even drop. To put it into perspective, imagine if Protoss had access to Oracles from the Gateway. They are so dangerous that you'd have to build turrets and put Widow Mines around for fear that the Protoss would warp in Oracles at anytime and decimate your mineral lines. And that would weaken Terran greatly. And that is what is happening here, you can't just force Protoss to build cannons and not expect Protoss to be weakened greatly. Speed Medivacs is a huge buff to the mid-game harass of Terran, which Terran Bio didn't need. Bio needed a late game buff instead.
I understand your point of view, but he was referring to 2-3 cannons NOT stopping drops. Terran do experience something similar early game against toss when they scout 2 early gas. It could mean a lot of different openings all of which require you to respond differently. Proxy Stargate, blink Stalkers, Immortal all-in, DT's all of which require a different response so you have to prepare for everything if your scan misses the key structures.
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On March 10 2013 01:40 Xequecal wrote:
Honestly, I think the real problem is the Widow Mine's fairly high HP total for such a cheap unit, making it near impossible for Protoss to kill them before they burrow.
One word: observer.
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I'm almost convinced Stagate openers/blink openers are going to be the norm PvT with the new Speedvacs.
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One word: observer.
What a ridiculous post. This is another game mechanic that forces the opponent to have the exact same build just to be able to -survive-. Naturally, the Terran player knows what it will be so will proceed in turn to counter that one. Just like on HOTS beta GM ladder, IEM showed Protoss is a walkover and I mean an absolute pushover for Terrans with GM level (or pro level) multitasking and micromanagement. Even when the Protoss does win, he has had to play like Parting did in his only win on Newkirk City, defending for 25minutes with templars at 15 different locations and just hoping for the Terran to make a mistake (and in that game the mistake of the Terran was not bothering to expand to 4th base ever). Basically the Terran will always be in control of the battle and will be the one who does all of the aggression, while the Protoss tries to turtle his way into 200/200 with 3-3 upgrades.
TvP matchup is in a bad shape.
I'm almost convinced Stagate openers/blink openers are going to be the norm PvT with the new Speedvacs.
I played the beta for 5 months and I can say with absolute certainty the best build against Terran are 1 base all ins that end the game before Medivacs play any role in it. 1 base blink, 1 base void rays, 1 base oracles. If you don't end the game with an all in early you'll be playing a handicapped race against a player with much better tools at his disposal. Only a vast difference in skill level can compensate for the racial handicap.
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But Stargate doesn't make sense in PvT. You have just a view expensive units that can be oneschotted by a widow mine.
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EPT
