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But Stargate doesn't make sense in PvT. You have just a view expensive units that can be oneschotted by a widow mine.
You make one fast (sometimes proxy) Oracle to check his build and if it's a crap build then cause some damage to the scvs, and then you make 2 void rays to be the damage dealers for your gateway units. If he went Widow Mines you use the Oracle as the observer and keep it out of combat. Then you just run up his ramp and kill everything. The Void Rays with prismatic alignment on blow up bunkers just as fast as Immortals with the added bonus that when the Marine count gets low nothing can attack them. I won around 100 games with some version of this all in on beta (masters). I feel the only times I lost I just microed bad with the Voids and don''t think it was countered by any build or defence.
...or, you could try play a standard macro game which will lead into you sitting in your 2-3 (depending on map) bases turtling with templars and hoping for the Terran to be really really bad.
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On March 10 2013 01:45 renaissanceMAN wrote:
One word: observer.
Making a robo against Terran drop play is suicide. You need units that can actually shoot the Medivacs down and the robo doesn't help you with that. Without them, they'll just keep making more and more of them and dropping you in 4 places at once.
3 Medivacs full of Widow Mines are just horrific bullshit, Medivacs with bio in them take time to unload and you can run your workers away. Medivacs with Widow Mines in them give you about 1 second to react or lose half your mineral line to splash, because you need 2 seconds for the probes to get far enough away that the widow mine doesn't shoot them anyway. Then if you successfully reacted within 1 second you now have to perfectly split up those probes into about six different directions in 3 seconds or lose them anyway as the Terran move-drops the other 3 mines across them with his super-speed medivac. Then after you succeed at that you have to bring in your detector unit and stalkers, and still have to intensively micro your stalkers because of their nasty tendency to not stop 6 range away to fire, and just run into range of the mine and get killed. Of course you won't kill more than 1 mine this way, because after Terran sees this he can just pick the mines up again. If you're up against a pro Terran, prepare to do all this in three places at once or lose the game immediately.
Photon Overcharge is not very helpful because it doesn't do enough DPS to kill a single widow mine before it burrows. The best use of it is trying to whittle the Medivacs HP down so they can't come drop you a second time, but they're always going to do damage with the first drop.
IMHO the best build right now other than allin is 15 or 17 Nexus into 1 Gate Stargate, then make Oracles and Phoenix. The Phoenix can shoot the Medivacs down and the Oracles are actually able to kill mines before they finish burrowing.
They absolutely need to reduce mine HP or reduce the splash damage to like 35 so you can't kill 12 probes with one mine missile.
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On March 10 2013 02:29 Xequecal wrote:Making a robo against Terran drop play is suicide. You need units that can actually shoot the Medivacs down and the robo doesn't help you with that. Without them, they'll just keep making more and more of them and dropping you in 4 places at once. 3 Medivacs full of Widow Mines are just horrific bullshit, Medivacs with bio in them take time to unload and you can run your workers away. Medivacs with Widow Mines in them give you about 1 second to react or lose half your mineral line to splash, because you need 2 seconds for the probes to get far enough away that the widow mine doesn't shoot them anyway. Then if you successfully reacted within 1 second you now have to perfectly split up those probes into about six different directions in 3 seconds or lose them anyway as the Terran move-drops the other 3 mines across them with his super-speed medivac. Then after you succeed at that you have to bring in your detector unit and stalkers, and still have to intensively micro your stalkers because of their nasty tendency to not stop 6 range away to fire, and just run into range of the mine and get killed. Of course you won't kill more than 1 mine this way, because after Terran sees this he can just pick the mines up again. If you're up against a pro Terran, prepare to do all this in three places at once or lose the game immediately. Photon Overcharge is not very helpful because it doesn't do enough DPS to kill a single widow mine before it burrows. The best use of it is trying to whittle the Medivacs HP down so they can't come drop you a second time, but they're always going to do damage with the first drop. IMHO the best build right now other than allin is 15 or 17 Nexus into 1 Gate Stargate, then make Oracles and Phoenix. The Phoenix can shoot the Medivacs down and the Oracles are actually able to kill mines before they finish burrowing. They absolutely need to reduce mine HP or reduce the splash damage to like 35 so you can't kill 12 probes with one mine missile.
Cannons and stalkers in position. 3 medivacs full of widow mines comes pretty late and is pretty all in.
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Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster.
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All that's needed is to ensure drop play is more of a commitment. As is, you can get in quick, reposition quick and get out quick, all in a very short time. The odds of doing damage is great because defenses can be bypassed on the way in and once inside, and the risk of trading inefficiently is minimal because the defenses can be bypassed once again when moving out.
If Terran had to decide on either going in quick or getting out quick there would be greater risk and drop play would be easier to defend. This could be done by increasing afterburn CD or even making the medivac take damage when using it.
I feel making afterburn cost energy is less of an option because it would have to cost enough that Terran can never use it twice in quick succession, which means it wouldn't be of use in the early game, or to escape from engagements, where the medivacs will have expended their energy healing.
I actually quite like the idea of afterburn damaging the medivac, because it would punish players who carelessly fly over enemy defenses, rendering them unable to use it even to escape. It would also encourage creative play using SCV's or even mules to repair the medivacs in order to do double afterburn drops.
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On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster.
Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away.
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On March 10 2013 03:05 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster. Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away.
Salvage. No Ebay required.
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On March 10 2013 03:13 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 03:05 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster. Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away. Salvage. No Ebay required.
Yes, because Protoss only make the forge for cannons. And cannons do dmg without having units in them.
I am not trying to make a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. Just saying that if you want to deny early game aggression, you will need to make static defense.
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On March 10 2013 03:18 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 03:13 Giriath wrote:On March 10 2013 03:05 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster. Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away. Salvage. No Ebay required. Yes, because Protoss only make the forge for cannons. And cannons do dmg without having units in them. I am not trying to make a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. Just saying that if you want to deny early game aggression, you will need to make static defense.
You were refuting his argument that making static defenses wasn't an option by making a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. And now you're back where you began, apparently having decided to ignore that argument.
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More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players.
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On March 10 2013 04:06 Xequecal wrote:
More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players.
Or, you know, you could:
get a forge because upgrades are actually good (:O)
Get a twi council because more upgrades are actually better (:OO)
Put 1 cannon at each mineral line kind of like build turrets/spores/spines which every other race does since they don't have warpin (:OOO)
Research blink and put stalkers not at the mineral line so if the medivacs fly over cannons you have stalkers there, and if they drop on top of cannons you can blink in! :OOOO
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On March 10 2013 02:53 Giriath wrote:
All that's needed is to ensure drop play is more of a commitment. As is, you can get in quick, reposition quick and get out quick, all in a very short time. The odds of doing damage is great because defenses can be bypassed on the way in and once inside, and the risk of trading inefficiently is minimal because the defenses can be bypassed once again when moving out.
If Terran had to decide on either going in quick or getting out quick there would be greater risk and drop play would be easier to defend. This could be done by increasing afterburn CD or even making the medivac take damage when using it.
I feel making afterburn cost energy is less of an option because it would have to cost enough that Terran can never use it twice in quick succession, which means it wouldn't be of use in the early game, or to escape from engagements, where the medivacs will have expended their energy healing.
I actually quite like the idea of afterburn damaging the medivac, because it would punish players who carelessly fly over enemy defenses, rendering them unable to use it even to escape. It would also encourage creative play using SCV's or even mules to repair the medivacs in order to do double afterburn drops.
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 10 2013 05:39 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 04:06 Xequecal wrote:
More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players. Or, you know, you could: get a forge because upgrades are actually good (:O) Get a twi council because more upgrades are actually better (:OO) Put 1 cannon at each mineral line kind of like build turrets/spores/spines which every other race does since they don't have warpin (:OOO) Research blink and put stalkers not at the mineral line so if the medivacs fly over cannons you have stalkers there, and if they drop on top of cannons you can blink in! :OOOO
You do realise that though that will work in not dying, it's not really the issue. What we're seeing is Protoss players being pinned and not establishing map control due to the risks inherent in doing so. Terrans are not always killing a Protoss with medivac timings, they're taking earlyish thirds and overwhelming the Protoss with mid game pushes.
It's defendable, but bear in mind Protoss in WoL pretty much design their builds with medivac timings in mind, and got good in this regard, but cut as many corners as possible so they could get the tech they needed.
I'm looking forward to experimenting myself, my PvT was so much better than my other matchups, I've been waiting for new Puzzles to solve!
My instinct would say that some kind of soft pressure pre-medivacs might work, in conjunction with recall or something. Kind of the same principle as the old 3gate aggro expand, you posture and get infrastructure up behind it.
Could be 100 percent wrong, but my gut tells me 'turtle better' isn't going to cut it, Protoss players if nothing else have had to develop this very skill for the entirety of WoL, there's not all that much room to improve in that regard.
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On March 10 2013 06:32 GorGor wrote:
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass.
Warp prism harass is a commitment because warped-in gateway units can't actually kill workers. Well, DTs can, but I think you can see how Dark Shrine tech counts as a commitment. When you warp prism harass Zerg, you're trying to kill tech buildings or the hatchery, which means you have to warp in a LOT of Zealots and then hope they can't respond before the important buildings go down. Warp prism harass is useless against Terran for this reason, their SCVs can just move away and the stuff you warp in can't kill anything important.
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On March 10 2013 06:32 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:53 Giriath wrote:
All that's needed is to ensure drop play is more of a commitment. As is, you can get in quick, reposition quick and get out quick, all in a very short time. The odds of doing damage is great because defenses can be bypassed on the way in and once inside, and the risk of trading inefficiently is minimal because the defenses can be bypassed once again when moving out.
If Terran had to decide on either going in quick or getting out quick there would be greater risk and drop play would be easier to defend. This could be done by increasing afterburn CD or even making the medivac take damage when using it.
I feel making afterburn cost energy is less of an option because it would have to cost enough that Terran can never use it twice in quick succession, which means it wouldn't be of use in the early game, or to escape from engagements, where the medivacs will have expended their energy healing.
I actually quite like the idea of afterburn damaging the medivac, because it would punish players who carelessly fly over enemy defenses, rendering them unable to use it even to escape. It would also encourage creative play using SCV's or even mules to repair the medivacs in order to do double afterburn drops.
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass.
Alright. The warp prism cannot heal, so even as a mobile warp-in point it serves less purpose than the medivac throughout the game, especially if you make more than one. It is produced from a more expensive building that is also required to build essential units like observers and colossi. To be fast it requires an upgrade from a robotics bay, which is also required to upgrade the essential colossi thermal lance range, and even then it's not as fast as a medivac using afterburner. Protoss gateway units do less dps than Terran bio, which can quickly take out tech or production, making drops less useful. To build two at a time you need two expensive robotics facilities, rather than one starport with a reactor.
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On March 10 2013 07:07 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 06:32 GorGor wrote:
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass. Warp prism harass is a commitment because warped-in gateway units can't actually kill workers. Well, DTs can, but I think you can see how Dark Shrine tech counts as a commitment. When you warp prism harass Zerg, you're trying to kill tech buildings or the hatchery, which means you have to warp in a LOT of Zealots and then hope they can't respond before the important buildings go down. Warp prism harass is useless against Terran for this reason, their SCVs can just move away and the stuff you warp in can't kill anything important.
This does not make sense, even if your premise is correct the conclusion is non-sequitor. The effectiveness of the harassment is not what is being discussed, it is this idea of "commitment." Did you even read my post before responding? Even then your premise is flawed as well. Zealot drop/warp in harass is effective against terran. If the terran army is on the map then it is very hard to handle zealot harass from a skilled protoss opponent without returning to your base with a large amount (if not all) of your army, especially with DTs mixed in (which is less of a commitment with the easier tech path than WOL). If we are discussing the effectiveness of harass however rather than the idea of "commitment" then the oracle is easily one of the most effective in the game considering the absurd dps and speed, the lack of overkill (compared to a banshee for example), the ability to chase down workers in the air without having to follow around buildings like marine drops, the survivability of the unit from its naturally very high move speed, the fact that the oracle doesn't need to unload/load like a marine drop and the utility of spells like time warp in the late game.
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On March 10 2013 07:22 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 06:32 GorGor wrote:On March 10 2013 02:53 Giriath wrote:
All that's needed is to ensure drop play is more of a commitment. As is, you can get in quick, reposition quick and get out quick, all in a very short time. The odds of doing damage is great because defenses can be bypassed on the way in and once inside, and the risk of trading inefficiently is minimal because the defenses can be bypassed once again when moving out.
If Terran had to decide on either going in quick or getting out quick there would be greater risk and drop play would be easier to defend. This could be done by increasing afterburn CD or even making the medivac take damage when using it.
I feel making afterburn cost energy is less of an option because it would have to cost enough that Terran can never use it twice in quick succession, which means it wouldn't be of use in the early game, or to escape from engagements, where the medivacs will have expended their energy healing.
I actually quite like the idea of afterburn damaging the medivac, because it would punish players who carelessly fly over enemy defenses, rendering them unable to use it even to escape. It would also encourage creative play using SCV's or even mules to repair the medivacs in order to do double afterburn drops.
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass. Alright. The warp prism cannot heal, so even as a mobile warp-in point it serves less purpose than the medivac throughout the game, especially if you make more than one. It is produced from a more expensive building that is also required to build essential units like observers and colossi. To be fast it requires an upgrade from a robotics bay, which is also required to upgrade the essential colossi thermal lance range, and even then it's not as fast as a medivac using afterburner. Protoss gateway units do less dps than Terran bio, which can quickly take out tech or production, making drops less useful. To build two at a time you need two expensive robotics facilities, rather than one starport with a reactor.
First of all, most of what you are saying is flat out wrong, and second of all even if you show that a warp prism has a small amount of "commitment" (you aren't even doing that you are discussing mostly "effectiveness") medivacs suffer from even more "commitment" despite what protoss may believe. First of all when you factor in the lost mining time from the scv that has to build it the Starport actually costs more than the Robotics Facility, not to mention that a factory is required as a pre-requisite to tech to a starport (which in WOL was used to float around the map aimlessly for the rest of the game as a testament to how useless it was in the matchup although it is slightly more useful than that in HOTS that isn't saying much). Then you make a straw-man about building 2 warp prisms at a time from multiple robo facilities? That is just silly, because 1 warp prism can warp in as many units as you want so why would anyone mass produce them? That is the whole point that protoss need only 1 unit that DOESN'T EVEN COST GAS and they can harass with it for the rest of the game, from early game warp ins to late game multi-pronged harass and it is completely in line with the tech path that they already take in the first place. As far as the idea of "commitment" medivac harass is much greater because terran has to dedicate a lot of gas to medivacs and terran upgrades are already more expensive and less utilitarian than protoss so that gas is sorely missed. The onus is on the terran to harass as well because protoss have an overwhelming late-game deathball, but I digress. The point is that a warp prism has very little "commitment" compared to a medivac because it only costs 200 minerals and protoss can warp in as many or as few units as they want. If the Terran is outside of the pross base they can instantly warp a full round of whatever unit they want for harass in the middle of the terran base, and if they need those units for defense they can just not do that with 0 commitment to the harass other than the 200 minerals.
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On March 10 2013 06:43 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 05:39 GTPGlitch wrote:On March 10 2013 04:06 Xequecal wrote:
More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players. Or, you know, you could: get a forge because upgrades are actually good (:O) Get a twi council because more upgrades are actually better (:OO) Put 1 cannon at each mineral line kind of like build turrets/spores/spines which every other race does since they don't have warpin (:OOO) Research blink and put stalkers not at the mineral line so if the medivacs fly over cannons you have stalkers there, and if they drop on top of cannons you can blink in! :OOOO You do realise that though that will work in not dying, it's not really the issue. What we're seeing is Protoss players being pinned and not establishing map control due to the risks inherent in doing so. Terrans are not always killing a Protoss with medivac timings, they're taking earlyish thirds and overwhelming the Protoss with mid game pushes. It's defendable, but bear in mind Protoss in WoL pretty much design their builds with medivac timings in mind, and got good in this regard, but cut as many corners as possible so they could get the tech they needed. I'm looking forward to experimenting myself, my PvT was so much better than my other matchups, I've been waiting for new Puzzles to solve! My instinct would say that some kind of soft pressure pre-medivacs might work, in conjunction with recall or something. Kind of the same principle as the old 3gate aggro expand, you posture and get infrastructure up behind it. Could be 100 percent wrong, but my gut tells me 'turtle better' isn't going to cut it, Protoss players if nothing else have had to develop this very skill for the entirety of WoL, there's not all that much room to improve in that regard.
Spot on. Some sort of heavy blink stalker play with a mothership to recall incase you over commit/a drop does go off does seem like the way to go. Reminds me of the Flash HerO daily where he points out how Flash moves his marines by HerO's base on Heartbreak ridge in order to pin the mutas back home. The big question though is how do you fit detection into this/ will you have enough scouting? Mothership core early enough means you don't need sentries to block off the ridge (suppose that leaves you open to soem insane 1 base play) so you can make 1 sentry use a halu... but that'll be after you've got your tech route chosen... mn.
People complaining about the widowmine... well it just makes me think of reavers. As long as the drop paths are risky enough and the drop has a high risk/reward ratio then it's interesting and good. God knows half the problem is terrible map making with a fetish for deadspace to protect lazy airplay.
This might just be a flaw in design we have to live with. Terran gets a fragile army that needs the right composition in lategame so it gets an edge getting there. Toss unlocks all sorts of tech to beat marines and when it is unlocked they go kill the terran.
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On March 09 2013 02:38 Tenks wrote:I have a feeling afterburners is going to get nerfed because 400 APM Terrans can rip people apart and us Joe Masters Terrans are going to be screwed again 
Well that's the whole idea of terran.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 10 2013 08:07 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 06:43 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 10 2013 05:39 GTPGlitch wrote:On March 10 2013 04:06 Xequecal wrote:
More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players. Or, you know, you could: get a forge because upgrades are actually good (:O) Get a twi council because more upgrades are actually better (:OO) Put 1 cannon at each mineral line kind of like build turrets/spores/spines which every other race does since they don't have warpin (:OOO) Research blink and put stalkers not at the mineral line so if the medivacs fly over cannons you have stalkers there, and if they drop on top of cannons you can blink in! :OOOO You do realise that though that will work in not dying, it's not really the issue. What we're seeing is Protoss players being pinned and not establishing map control due to the risks inherent in doing so. Terrans are not always killing a Protoss with medivac timings, they're taking earlyish thirds and overwhelming the Protoss with mid game pushes. It's defendable, but bear in mind Protoss in WoL pretty much design their builds with medivac timings in mind, and got good in this regard, but cut as many corners as possible so they could get the tech they needed. I'm looking forward to experimenting myself, my PvT was so much better than my other matchups, I've been waiting for new Puzzles to solve! My instinct would say that some kind of soft pressure pre-medivacs might work, in conjunction with recall or something. Kind of the same principle as the old 3gate aggro expand, you posture and get infrastructure up behind it. Could be 100 percent wrong, but my gut tells me 'turtle better' isn't going to cut it, Protoss players if nothing else have had to develop this very skill for the entirety of WoL, there's not all that much room to improve in that regard. Spot on. Some sort of heavy blink stalker play with a mothership to recall incase you over commit/a drop does go off does seem like the way to go. Reminds me of the Flash HerO daily where he points out how Flash moves his marines by HerO's base on Heartbreak ridge in order to pin the mutas back home. The big question though is how do you fit detection into this/ will you have enough scouting? Mothership core early enough means you don't need sentries to block off the ridge (suppose that leaves you open to soem insane 1 base play) so you can make 1 sentry use a halu... but that'll be after you've got your tech route chosen... mn. People complaining about the widowmine... well it just makes me think of reavers. As long as the drop paths are risky enough and the drop has a high risk/reward ratio then it's interesting and good. God knows half the problem is terrible map making with a fetish for deadspace to protect lazy airplay.This might just be a flaw in design we have to live with. Terran gets a fragile army that needs the right composition in lategame so it gets an edge getting there. Toss unlocks all sorts of tech to beat marines and when it is unlocked they go kill the terran.
100%, both the dead air space, and certain other factors as well look to be rather annoying for Protoss. Reminds me of old PvZ when Mutas were all the rage, certain maps made that insanely potent, other maps with different architecture made it not really wortth pursuing.
Some of the maps that this speedivac play looked really potent on also had a very open third base, it appears to be not defending on 2 fronts that is an issue currently, but defending on three, especially given the current map sets.
There will probably be some cool build designed to be strong defensively at this period of the game that comes out soon, something like Creator's Dual Forge style, in which pretty only the exact unit counts you need to hold are produced.
That said, I do 100% wish to see more before I make a proper assessment of the matchup, in other respects it does seem more dynamic when played by top players, if it makes it out of the early/midgame where there's a lot of shenanigans going down currently.
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