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I am just watching extreme masters and how MVP smashs the Protosses with his widow mine drop opening into massive afterburn usage style is not funny from the Protoss perspective.
The real thing is, he talks to his teammate Yoda after game 2 and then in game 3 yoda uses the same style against parting and smashes him by it 
I think protoss is against this strategy defintley hard in the disadvantage. P can only hope for defending all this drops and doesnt come strongly behind in the first 10 minutes of the game. I guess even with nearly perfect defense you will get behind in arround 50 % of the games during that time and terran chances of loosing something in the high skill level are arround 0 because of the afterburn.
What do you think guys ?
Update: Here are the vods of the games
Grubby vs Mvp
Mana vs Mvp
Parting vs Yoda
First vs Yoda
The strategy made overall 9-1 stats. Grubby lost 2 games to it, Mana 3, Parting lost 2 games out of 5 against it and First 2 games out of 4. Parting was able to hold it in game 4 but was econmically behind and had 20 supply less but was able with some good storms to survive and fight back in the late game. First could defend it on ohana in game 1. But he lost 2 other games against it.
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Like Artosis said in SOTG last night, you really, really have to buckle yourself in once the Terran gets medivacs out. Disregarding possible "imbalance," you either die to the drop because you played towards securing a third for the macro game, or you survive the drop but are behind in the macro game.
Obviously, being behind in the macro game is the lesser of two evils.
The strength of the drop is not just that allows Terran to rocket into your base and snipe important tech much more quickly - it's that it allows the drop to LEAVE with minimum risk (which is silly), often even if the Protoss has invested a lot into defending the timing.
Not to mention the fact that splitting up your forces poses a huge risk at your nat.
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please don't start screaming imbalance, the game isn't even out yet.
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On March 09 2013 02:17 Qwyn wrote:
Like Artosis said in SOTG last night, you really, really have to buckle yourself in once the Terran gets medivacs out. Disregarding possible "imbalance," you either die to the drop because you played towards securing a third for the macro game, or you survive the drop but are behind in the macro game.
Obviously, being behind in the macro game is the lesser of two evils.
The strength of the drop is not just that allows Terran to rocket into your base and snipe important tech much more quickly - it's that it allows the drop to LEAVE with minimum risk (which is silly), often even if the Protoss has invested a lot into defending the timing.
Not to mention the fact that splitting up your forces poses a huge risk at your nat.
Artosis also said they might need to be looked at, to be fair. I don't think they are totally broken, but the protoss could do with a little more warning before its full "doom drop" time. Or blink needs to be faster/easier to get, because it has been nerfed so far back, defending against this with blinkless stalkers is really rough. But that makes blink stalker all-ins more awesome.
But the ability is awesome and rewards the better player. Protoss just needs a way to defend it that does require them to have units on top of the drop zone as the units are pouring out. Or ESP.
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I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
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I have a feeling afterburners is going to get nerfed because 400 APM Terrans can rip people apart and us Joe Masters Terrans are going to be screwed again 
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On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
The thing that people discussing is the doom drops that people have been using against protoss on 2 bases. The terran threatens the doom drop with four medivacs simply cannot leave or gain map control because the terran's army is so fast.
I also agree that it is likely not broken as a whole, it is more about the specific timing when the protoss doesn't have a lot of mobility or map presence that can really put them behind. The solution could be cheaper and/or faster observers and nothing that directly nerfs the boost ability.
But again, the ability is totally awesome and just needs a cooler animation.(its all afterburners).
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On March 09 2013 02:20 renaissanceMAN wrote:
please don't start screaming imbalance, the game isn't even out yet.
People have been complaining about Medivac boost since its implementation. All Mvp's game did was bring more attention to the matter. You say he shouldn't talk about balance because the game isn't out yet? There was a beta test specifically for the purpose of balancing multiplayer before they release the game. That being said, there will probably be a bit of time allotted after the game is released before Blizzard attempts to release a patch, so they can observe if players learn how to deal with it.
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On March 09 2013 02:46 wongfeihung wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 02:20 renaissanceMAN wrote:
please don't start screaming imbalance, the game isn't even out yet. People have been complaining about Medivac boost since its implementation. All Mvp's game did was bring more attention to the matter. You say he shouldn't talk about balance because the game isn't out yet? There was a beta test specifically for the purpose of balancing multiplayer before they release the game. That being said, there will probably be a bit of time allotted after the game is released before Blizzard attempts to release a patch, so they can observe if players learn how to deal with it.
the majority of the population that will play HoTS has still not touched it yet. I don't want to see the medivac nerfed before there's been adequate time for the other races to adapt to it. This is what Blizzard did pre-queen/overlord buff etc. and it sucked! Things were much better after they realized that the meta-game shifts around.
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I don't want to call the ability imbalanced yet, however my gut tells me that it simply needs a little more risk vs. reward because it is very powerful.
At first I had thought of giving it an energy cost of say 25 so that if the terran chooses to boost from starport across the map, boost into your base and then boost out that would b 75 less energy to heal the units involved in the drop with. but widow mines don't benefit from the heal so this would solve nothing for the widow mine variant 
and then i simply thought; what if they just increased the CD of the ability by like 10 seconds, as is they can speed past your defense, drop, do some damage and speed out before you can respond. with an increased CD the terran may choose to speed past your defense to get more/gauranteed damage in -OR- get reduce the effectiveness of the drop but ensure escape without loss but not both unless the protoss is caught completely off-gaurd due to lack of porper scouting/preperation which sounds fair to me.
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On March 09 2013 02:52 Phoobie wrote:I don't want to call the ability imbalanced yet, however my gut tells me that it simply needs a little more risk vs. reward because it is very powerful. At first I had thought of giving it an energy cost of say 25 so that if the terran chooses to boost from starport across the map, boost into your base and then boost out that would b 75 less energy to heal the units involved in the drop with. but widow mines don't benefit from the heal so this would solve nothing for the widow mine variant and then i simply thought; what if they just increased the CD of the ability by like 10 seconds, as is they can speed past your defense, drop, do some damage and speed out before you can respond. with an increased CD the terran may choose to speed past your defense to get more/gauranteed damage in -OR- get reduce the effectiveness of the drop but ensure escape without loss but not both unless the protoss is caught completely off-gaurd due to lack of porper scouting/preperation which sounds fair to me.
Personally, I just want to be able to see if the ability is available for the terran. Some sort of visual que that its no longer on cool down and I need to be ready for it to zip off into the sunset would be helpful. Or just alter the turning radius of the medivac when it is boosting, so it is harder to control and requires the player to get really good controling it while boosted. That would also "limit" where it could go a specific point, allowing the other player to prepare for it as long as their scouting was good.
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As a Terran, I feel like the medivac speed boost should have more significant drawbacks. Even just something like a 5 sec longer cooldown would make a big difference. As it is, it's available at any timing you might need it.
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On March 09 2013 02:20 renaissanceMAN wrote:
please don't start screaming imbalance, the game isn't even out yet.
Please read.
Is not crying for op, is a lovelly analysis (as dw.Justify and Qwyn made) of the new techs in the hands players who play the game best.
I said it in other threads, the speedvacs are pretty obviously too strong since beta started in TvP, pretty sad to see blizz not even seeing this coming in their reports (sadly, as usual u.u).
dw.Justify and Qwyn posts resumes pretty well the issues.
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Did PartinG hold this in game 4 ?
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I think the boost ability should simply damage the medivac a little bit, maybe 10-15% of it's current hp everytime it gets used.
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So,once again T OP,right? But WHY? Only because after 3 years of 10-11 mins drops aggression in TvP,the Protoss Pros decide to not put units to defend??? Tastossis are talking in GSL every TvP that "You need at least one Collossus to defend those drops,you know are coming".Now in HotS the P players think this is not more viable,only because the Medivacs are quicker...Really??? HTs and Feedback are gone? Stalkers and Collosi are out of the game??? Free hallu there,MScore+Photon overcharge and still no defense??? Only because Parting lost 2 games on Ohana and Entombed due to silly and scouted cheese,we are gonna say medivacs are OP??? The moment the P players realise how good are Oracles,things are gonna change a lot.Just check the Dream vs First game
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I still think I'd like to wait and see if players we feel are inferior to better Protoss can still abuse this and pick them apart. I'm not ready to say we need a massive redesign because the best SC2 player in the world managed to pick apart Mana.
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I do think Protoss got enough new defensive capabilities and scouting capabilities against this.
Afterburners should probable have a energy cost though, maybe 25 energy ? Either that or a slightly longer cooldown. But too be honest we have seen way to few games to be sure.
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did you have to also spoil the yoda parting series in this post?
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I dont think its time already to balance whine.. give it some time atleast so Protoss can try to figure something out.
Maybe you just need a faster blink, then you can shut 1 or 2 medivacs down pretty easily. Doom drops are another thing and i personally think its good that they are stronger.
If the nerf is really needed after some time, maybe Medivacs shouldnt be able to load/unload units while the booster is on?
that way you have to time it perfectly, else your medivac just sits in the opponents base and cant get the units out
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On March 09 2013 03:11 Grumbels wrote:
did you have to also spoil the yoda parting series in this post?
The post you willingly clicked on that specificly notes that it is discussing mine use in IEM? Was it not implied that there was a pretty good risk of spoilers in the thread no matter what happened?
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Players just need to learn how to hold this stuff off. I think most people who played beta can attest to the fact that it all seems really strong at first, but once you adapt your play it is not so bad...
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Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it.
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And PartinG defended them pretty well in G4. I mean, it can't be any worse than the wonwonwon, right?
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On March 09 2013 03:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 03:11 Grumbels wrote:
did you have to also spoil the yoda parting series in this post? The post you willingly clicked on that specificly notes that it is discussing mine use in IEM? Was it not implied that there was a pretty good risk of spoilers in the thread no matter what happened?
"if you don't want to get spoiled, stay away from team liquid!" -- weren't people over this childish sentiment yet?
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I like Phoenix. Widow mines and Medivacs denied. It is just like Hellions versus Zerg pre Queen-messup. They choose to be at the defensive, because all they needed to do was to survive it without making big mistakes and be ahead. Whereas the other option might set them back if they do mistakes.
So just wait for the LG IM Protoss players to show you how its done. LG IM might of course choose not to reveal counter strategies to their own plays.
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As a protoss player, I too think that we should wait some more time. Certainly the boost looks very powerful, but time should be given so that players can actually adapt and find new ways to deal with it. If it comes to nerf, 25 energy coast seems a good option.
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Blizzard is aware that crackvacs are "potentially" imbalanced. I think its more a matter of how--rather than if-- they nerf them. Buffing the medevac is like buffing colossi or infestors. You can't avoid balance problems when you dramatically improve units that already dominated the game.
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I have yet to see a patroling observer spottin for medivacs this tournament or maybe i have missed something?
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I think Dustin Browder said it right in another thread regarding HOTS balance. Drops were pretty potent vP at the beginning of WOL, but Protoss players eventually figured out how to defend it to the point that you didn't see much of it anymore in the end. Heck, even I could easily defend it and I'm not GM. Limited numbers of templars to feedback + obs + cannons and your base becomes impenetrable in WOL against T (after I saw SKT-Rain do it, my PvT win % skyrocketed).
So give it a bit of time of Protoss to figure it out. It made for some crazy good games in Parting v Yoda. Constant aggression, counter-attacks, drops, etc... instead of NR15.
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On March 09 2013 03:45 whoopsome wrote:
I have yet to see a patroling observer spottin for medivacs this tournament or maybe i have missed something?
Parting in Game 4 has obs spotting, and by the end of the game, HT's littered across the map to snipe any stray medivacs.
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On March 09 2013 03:45 whoopsome wrote:
I have yet to see a patroling observer spottin for medivacs this tournament or maybe i have missed something?
this. you have a freaking invisible unit who's sole purpose is to observe an area. or you could make one phoenix and have it fly around the edge of your base, like terrans do with vikings in tvt. omg we can't defend terran tier 3 tech with gateways units alone, better change the game before it even gets released.
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On March 09 2013 03:31 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 03:16 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2013 03:11 Grumbels wrote:
did you have to also spoil the yoda parting series in this post? The post you willingly clicked on that specificly notes that it is discussing mine use in IEM? Was it not implied that there was a pretty good risk of spoilers in the thread no matter what happened? "if you don't want to get spoiled, stay away from team liquid!" -- weren't people over this childish sentiment yet?
So you click on an IEM thread when you are not up to date on the tournament and then you are mad about spoilers... rethink your thought process please.
As a toss watching all the games, I don't think the drop mechanic is broken, but I think that since the Terran has zero cost for using this boost ability then they have nothing to lose if they control their units properly. I think the game needs more time, but I also think that the ability to drop, do damage, and then escape without taking any damage needs to be looked at at the very least.
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On March 09 2013 04:00 MetalxStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 03:31 Grumbels wrote:On March 09 2013 03:16 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2013 03:11 Grumbels wrote:
did you have to also spoil the yoda parting series in this post? The post you willingly clicked on that specificly notes that it is discussing mine use in IEM? Was it not implied that there was a pretty good risk of spoilers in the thread no matter what happened? "if you don't want to get spoiled, stay away from team liquid!" -- weren't people over this childish sentiment yet? So you click on an IEM thread when you are not up to date on the tournament and then you are mad about spoilers... rethink your thought process please. As a toss watching all the games, I don't think the drop mechanic is broken, but I think that since the Terran has zero cost for using this boost ability then they have nothing to lose if they control their units properly. I think the game needs more time, but I also think that the ability to drop, do damage, and then escape without taking any damage needs to be looked at at the very least.
Don't blink stalkers also do this if defense is out of position? Go in, do damage and blink out?
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On March 09 2013 04:07 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 04:00 MetalxStorm wrote:On March 09 2013 03:31 Grumbels wrote:On March 09 2013 03:16 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2013 03:11 Grumbels wrote:
did you have to also spoil the yoda parting series in this post? The post you willingly clicked on that specificly notes that it is discussing mine use in IEM? Was it not implied that there was a pretty good risk of spoilers in the thread no matter what happened? "if you don't want to get spoiled, stay away from team liquid!" -- weren't people over this childish sentiment yet? So you click on an IEM thread when you are not up to date on the tournament and then you are mad about spoilers... rethink your thought process please. As a toss watching all the games, I don't think the drop mechanic is broken, but I think that since the Terran has zero cost for using this boost ability then they have nothing to lose if they control their units properly. I think the game needs more time, but I also think that the ability to drop, do damage, and then escape without taking any damage needs to be looked at at the very least. Don't blink stalkers also do this if defense is out of position? Go in, do damage and blink out?
Blink stalkers don't have the DPS of blue-flame hellions, hellbats, stimmed MM, etc. etc. (against buildings or workers), and you're limited where you can blink up.
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Don't blink stalkers also do this if defense is out of position? Go in, do damage and blink out?[/QUOTE]
absolutely they do, but they get stomped by more efficient units, they need high ground vision which can be denied, and they become obsolete as the game progresses through the mid and late game.
In this circumstance, the Terran sacrifices nothing, gains map control, has the more efficent army against the Protoss anti air units, and still has an army that can effectively transition through mid and late game. That said I don't think it is imbalanced, I think Protoss can do a good job of defending drops, but they have to give terran an economic advantage to do so.
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If things don't balance out, maybe the solution would not be to nerf the medivacs but the buff drop-play from other races. Say, like moving warp prism speed upgrade to Cybernetics Core instead of RoboFac.
Drop harassment all over the place is a lot more fun to watch and hard to pull off than NR15 maxed-ball fights.
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If afterburners do turn out to be a legitimate balance concern I'd prefer Blizzard provide buffs to the other races to handle it rather than nerf the ability itself. While buffing the other two races would require a bit more work, and is potentially risky as it affects more matchups, I feel the approach would allow for more varied and interesting gameplay.
edit: Or, as the poster above me suggests, buff the other races ability to drop/harass.
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On March 09 2013 03:45 whoopsome wrote:
I have yet to see a patroling observer spottin for medivacs this tournament or maybe i have missed something?
More or less this. The ability is fine. The Protosses are just inferior to MVP.
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This is a total cliche, but I do think its too early to tell. Is terran with speedvacs and widow mine drops OP against protoss players playing WOL styles? Absolutely.
Is it OP once you factor in possible oracle openers forcing really early turrets? MSC using time warp and nexus overcharge to its fullest potential? 2 base pushes involving oracles and/or VRs that outright kill any terran trying to secure a natural after the usual reaper/mine harass?
I really think reaper and mine openers will soon fade out once protoss players learn how to punish them.
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On March 09 2013 03:54 Squiggles wrote:
I think Dustin Browder said it right in another thread regarding HOTS balance. Drops were pretty potent vP at the beginning of WOL, but Protoss players eventually figured out how to defend it to the point that you didn't see much of it anymore in the end. Heck, even I could easily defend it and I'm not GM. Limited numbers of templars to feedback + obs + cannons and your base becomes impenetrable in WOL against T (after I saw SKT-Rain do it, my PvT win % skyrocketed).
So give it a bit of time of Protoss to figure it out. It made for some crazy good games in Parting v Yoda. Constant aggression, counter-attacks, drops, etc... instead of NR15.
Terrans never stopped dropping with great effect n WoL. See the recent Flash vs Rain series in round 3 of Code A. The, 10 minute medevac timing defines TvP. Day 9 calls it the 10 minute scary time. That was in WoL with normal medevacs. Now the medevacs are faster than mutas. Of course they are imbalanced.
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Make the afterburners an upgrade with the starting energy boost.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage.
The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully.
Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine.
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On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine.
Did you watch Game 4? Parting used Photon overcharge to great effect (focus firing the medivacs), and
+ Show Spoiler + even though he was on 2-bases for quite awhile, the game ended up stabilizing and he won.
Remember, it still takes some micro to pull off harassment even with the medivac boost, and at the same time you have to macro back home.
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I think protoss should really learn to build some cannons early. As T you've got to get a bunker early to deflect MSC/Stalker/zealot pressure, so why not build one cannon per base as protoss when you scout potential widow mines drop? They'll be useful during the whole game and pretty much nullify the opening, as 4 marines won't ever do the trick against a canon.
Anyway I'm pretty sure it's better than pulling your probes 10s or more to wait for an observer to come and to kill the mine.
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Well lets protend it is imbalance, instead of nerfing it. Give the other races something AGAINST IT, i have no idea what but something gameplay wise fun to watch thing.........
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it.
God I agree with avilo, please don't get this nerfed yet just because you're seeing your favourite player/race being beaten, it's just one tournament before the game is even out.
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you can't really call results from IEM anything.
the players didn't get to play beta and can only theorycraft.
and the game is still technically in beta
mvp makes everything imba anyways
oh, and you think terran is the only one is "imba new tools"? how about when the game releases... actually.. experiment. [stargate, msc]
and the game hasn't been out yet long enough to consider anything op/imba (not even 3 months)
just because your defenses aren't adapted to fit hots (and so you're using wol defenses) doesn't mean it's imba, it just means you need to adapt.
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On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it.
Do you really believe blizzard will change their way of balancing in hots? They let us fight broodlord infestor untill the end of wol while nerfing us hard, so why wouldn't they nerf us hard in hots and let us be the weakest race again?
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On March 09 2013 05:10 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it. Do you really believe blizzard will change their way of balancing in hots? They let us fight broodlord infestor untill the end of wol while nerfing us hard, so why wouldn't they nerf us hard in hots and let us be the weakest race again?
that's what I've been saying to people who optimistically say "HotS will fix StarCraft 2!", especially regarding ZvZ everywhere.
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On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine.
Like in game 4 where PartinG took his 3rd much later was was down 20 supply but held with storms? Is that the absurd advantage you are talking about? Terran bio needs that advantage now because you can have time warp plus storms.
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Afterburners should probable have a energy cost though, maybe 25 energy ? Either that or a slightly longer cooldown. But too be honest we have seen way to few games to be sure.
Please no. If anything, give afterburners a cool down. We can't snipe the medivacs with feedback if their low on energy.
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On March 09 2013 05:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine. Like in game 4 where PartinG took his 3rd much later was was down 20 supply but held with storms? Is that the absurd advantage you are talking about? Terran bio needs that advantage now because you can have time warp plus storms.
this
let the meta game play out before calling it imba pls.
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Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds
Here's the problem with the oracle in the TvP matchup. Medivacs are a staple unit of Terrans Bio composition; therefore, you need them regardless, so why not perform some drops if their sitting there anyway. With the oracle, it's not like that. You have to forgo your tech for some really gimmicky play early game to gain an edge. Late game, one turret negates any damage they'll do. Trying to gain an upperhand with oracle use (early/midgame) is a huge risk. If the terran defends, you've set yourself way behind. With the Terran, it isn't like that. Just don't throw away units as Terran and your still on an even playing field.
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Even if it might be imbalanced lets give it some time. Blizzard gave infestors about 7 months before nerfing them. See you all in October.
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I think once option to increase risk/rewards balance for these doom drops is to reduce the HP of medivacs
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Well you gotta realize MVP is the best Terran in the world. So that has to count the MVP factor. But I think that it's a bit op but its also new. Protoss players will lern to defend and adapt. I don't think widow mines re balanced yet they seem too unforgiving.
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On March 09 2013 05:24 Nick_54 wrote:
Even if it might be imbalanced lets give it some time. Blizzard gave infestors about 7 months before nerfing them. See you all in October.
Lol but they merged Terran pretty fast in every patch in wol lol
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On March 09 2013 05:33 HeeroFX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 05:24 Nick_54 wrote:
Even if it might be imbalanced lets give it some time. Blizzard gave infestors about 7 months before nerfing them. See you all in October. Lol but they merged Terran pretty fast in every patch in wol lol
Pre Queen/Overlord buff Terran got nerfed hard and fast, but so did the other races.
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On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine.
the problem is that the only option you're considering is turtling, so you're still only thinking towards your maxed a-moving deathball of gayness. you don't seem to understand that maybe blizzard decided it's time for protoss to do something else other than forcefielding ramps until 200/200. yea, no rush 20 time's over for protoss, fucking garbage huh?
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I've missed threads like these. Someone does pretty well in a tourney using some early game tactics no one has really had a chance to try to adapt to, and suddenly we're discussing how this is imba, and that was imba, and "even if it's imba, they should leave it alone for a while, because infestors rawrawrawr".
I can't wait for someone to win a GSL so we can all talk about how obviously sick broken the Ghost is. Oh sure, it might look like the same ghost and it might have not actually changed, but still, that one game was bullshit.
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On March 09 2013 05:40 Kabras wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 04:31 Whitewing wrote:On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Photon overcharge is useless against this garbage. The problem is that if you turtle super hard, you might be able to defend it, but then you have no chance to be aggressive or punish a terran for going up to 3-4 command centers while you're stuck on 2 bases. By the time you can secure a third, you're playing from an absurd disadvantage. If you don't turtle super hard, you literally can't defend it, you absolutely have to have your entire army in your base and spread very carefully. Even having phoenix out on the field to intercept isn't good enough, and you can't use those phoenix offensively because you might run into a widow mine. the problem is that the only option you're considering is turtling, so you're still only thinking towards your maxed a-moving deathball of gayness. you don't seem to understand that maybe blizzard decided it's time for protoss to do something else other than forcefielding ramps until 200/200. yea, no rush 20 time's over for protoss, fucking garbage huh?
I was thinking the same thing too. Considering that now protoss has more choices at aggressive opening due to recall and oracle allow more different tech path.
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On March 09 2013 05:42 Treehead wrote:
I've missed threads like these. Someone does pretty well in a tourney using some early game tactics no one has really had a chance to try to adapt to, and suddenly we're discussing how this is imba, and that was imba, and "even if it's imba, they should leave it alone for a while, because infestors rawrawrawr".
I can't wait for someone to win a GSL so we can all talk about how obviously sick broken the Ghost is. Oh sure, it might look like the same ghost and it might have not actually changed, but still, that one game was bullshit.
ahahahahahahah
best response in this thread
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I really hate the hypocrisy by a lot of people. Zergs this time last year were telling Terrans to find a solution to the infestor heavy mass queen meta instead of crying about it.
Zergs/Terran/Protoss are all OP in their own ways (mutas/vipers/widow mines/reapers/oracles/mothership core/tempest/void ray), but you cannot keep complaining about it and asking for nerfs, because guess what? WoL will happen again - everything will get nerfed to the point of utter boredom and games will turn into massive macro/turtle fests.
From what I've seen in HotS so far the game looks very well balanced (I'm disregarding Stephano's games and comments due to his inexperience with the game) and most importantly the games are FUN TO WATCH.
Please try to come up with constructive ideas and strategies for surviving or countering (even if they may not be 100% perfect), because the last thing we want to see is 2012 WoL in HotS.
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On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it.
Ah, we can always count on Avilo to tell us what we shouldn’t be discussing.
The best part is that most people in the thread are not asking for a nerf at all and think the ability pretty good. If anything, people are waiting to see how it pans out, but floating ideas on how to keep the ability awesome, while giving protoss some tools to deal with it if it turns out to be to hard.
As for the parting game where he held his third with storms, I think that is fine, but I don’t want to go back to the era of turtle toss. If it turns out that protoss’s only option is to be super defensive and wait for a super army, it would be bad for everyone.
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It'd be fair if Blink research time and cost was massively lowered. Let's say, 100 mineral 100 gas, 70 seconds.
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afterburner just needs to cost something. be it energy, much longer cooldown, inability to unload units for x seconds or whatever. right now it is a "always use option" without even the need of upgrading it. other than that it will be fine and make for much better and more action filled games.
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On March 09 2013 06:05 Empirimancer wrote:
It'd be fair if Blink research time and cost was massively lowered. Let's say, 100 mineral 100 gas, 70 seconds.
Sorry what?
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On March 09 2013 06:13 FancyCaTSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:05 Empirimancer wrote:
It'd be fair if Blink research time and cost was massively lowered. Let's say, 100 mineral 100 gas, 70 seconds.
Sorry what?
He is saying that the ability would be manageable if protoss could have blink at the same time the speed-vacs arrive, but somehow not be able to use those same blink stalkers for an all-in earlier.
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When they first introduced afterburner, they said they might make it an upgrade if it proved too strong. I think that might be a good move--it leaves it as a powerful options once its out, but gives the defender more time to scout and prepare, and requires T to invest a bit more in the strat.
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On March 09 2013 06:05 Empirimancer wrote:
It'd be fair if Blink research time and cost was massively lowered. Let's say, 100 mineral 100 gas, 70 seconds.
and make blink stalker all-ins even harder to hold? I mean they come quicker because you don't need an obs now
lololol no
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My solution is to kill/cheese the terran before medivacs are out. No but seriously it needs to be nerfed. I like making it an upgrade so it gives P time to get defense up. I'm willing to let Terran win a GSL or 2 before the nerf though. I'm not a pro player so I'm not the one suffering from a doom drop. I don't like the idea of forcing a protoss to open blink to have a chance against the medivac though.
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On March 09 2013 06:22 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:05 Empirimancer wrote:
It'd be fair if Blink research time and cost was massively lowered. Let's say, 100 mineral 100 gas, 70 seconds.
and make blink stalker all-ins even harder to hold? I mean they come quicker because you don't need an obs now lololol no
Blink stalker all-ins aren't that difficult to hold with good widow mine placement. Blink research time was increased in the HOTS beta to nerf blink all-ins against Terran, but that was BEFORE the Mothership Core lost its detection ability. Now that the MsC can't detect anymore, WMs are a good enough defense against Blink all-ins.
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On March 09 2013 06:29 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:22 zhurai wrote:On March 09 2013 06:05 Empirimancer wrote:
It'd be fair if Blink research time and cost was massively lowered. Let's say, 100 mineral 100 gas, 70 seconds.
and make blink stalker all-ins even harder to hold? I mean they come quicker because you don't need an obs now lololol no Blink stalker all-ins aren't that difficult to hold with good widow mine placement. Blink research time was increased in the HOTS beta to nerf blink all-ins against Terran, but that was BEFORE the Mothership Core lost its detection ability. Now that the MsC can't detect anymore, WMs are a good enough defense against Blink all-ins.
so you want to in turn pigeonhole terrans into only going for wm openings?
Lololol oooooooooooooookay
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Seems to me that everyone in HotS has to be willing to invest a bit more in static defense early. I know pro players hate to waste those needed resources early but if the alternative is dying then a few cannons/turrets/spores need to be built.
This applies even in the late game. It is so frustrating to watch a Zerg with 3000 minerals and tons of larva with a Max army lose bases to drops and warp ins that static defense would prevent.
In the end if everyone invests a bit more in the defense early game it will cancel out and if the player doesn't then a mine drop or oracle ends the game basically.
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On March 09 2013 06:32 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 06:29 Empirimancer wrote:On March 09 2013 06:22 zhurai wrote:On March 09 2013 06:05 Empirimancer wrote:
It'd be fair if Blink research time and cost was massively lowered. Let's say, 100 mineral 100 gas, 70 seconds.
and make blink stalker all-ins even harder to hold? I mean they come quicker because you don't need an obs now lololol no Blink stalker all-ins aren't that difficult to hold with good widow mine placement. Blink research time was increased in the HOTS beta to nerf blink all-ins against Terran, but that was BEFORE the Mothership Core lost its detection ability. Now that the MsC can't detect anymore, WMs are a good enough defense against Blink all-ins. so you want to in turn pigeonhole terrans into only going for wm openings? Lololol oooooooooooooookay
Scout with a reaper.
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Seriously, against gms in HotS beta it was never a problem for me and if I lost it always seems fair when I watched the replay, i.e., something I could have done but didn't.
Here's why:
We (Protoss) get free hallucinate, we get msc which strengthens any early game poke, we get proxy Oracles and Void Rays that do decent damage, we get photon overcharge with 13 range which you can cast at range 10 which basically means put msc between main and natural and you're good. We have Time Warp to slow the medivacs, Afterburners have a 20 second cooldown, so either they come in slow and you have plenty of time to react, or they come in fast and have little chance of leaving if you are a decent player. We have standard builds that include early observers and/or forges, we have high templar, which, if you're prepared, no drop can really do much damage. There are so many advantages over Terran bio Protoss gets in HotS that there's no reason really to go bio unless they got buffed in some way, which is what the afterburners are.
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On March 09 2013 06:36 tehemperorer wrote:
Seriously, against gms in HotS beta it was never a problem for me and it always seemed fair when I watched the replay.
Here's why:
We (Protoss) get free hallucinate, we get msc which strengthens any early game poke, we get proxy Oracles and Void Rays that do decent damage, we get photon overcharge with 13 range which you can cast at range 10 which basically means put msc between main and natural and you're good. We have Time Warp to slow the medivacs, Afterburners have a 20 second cooldown, so either they come in slow and you have plenty of time to react, or they come in fast and have little chance of leaving if you are a decent player. We have standard builds that include early observers and/or forges, we have high templar, which, if you're prepared, no drop can really do much damage. There are so many advantages over Terran bio Protoss gets in HotS that there's no reason really to go bio unless they got buffed in some way, which is what the afterburners are.
thank god some reasoning, also I love how none of the people saying it's imba are talking about how tilted parting was after the second game, he played like shit in games 2 - 4 and completely blew it in game 5.
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On March 09 2013 06:36 tehemperorer wrote:
Seriously, against gms in HotS beta it was never a problem for me and if I lost it always seems fair when I watched the replay, i.e., something I could have done but didn't.
Here's why:
We (Protoss) get free hallucinate, we get msc which strengthens any early game poke, we get proxy Oracles and Void Rays that do decent damage, we get photon overcharge with 13 range which you can cast at range 10 which basically means put msc between main and natural and you're good. We have Time Warp to slow the medivacs, Afterburners have a 20 second cooldown, so either they come in slow and you have plenty of time to react, or they come in fast and have little chance of leaving if you are a decent player. We have standard builds that include early observers and/or forges, we have high templar, which, if you're prepared, no drop can really do much damage. There are so many advantages over Terran bio Protoss gets in HotS that there's no reason really to go bio unless they got buffed in some way, which is what the afterburners are.
The only problem with your post is that Time Warp doesn't work on flying units. ;D
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On March 09 2013 06:36 tehemperorer wrote:
We have Time Warp to slow the medivacs,
Time Warp does NOT slow air and the cannon is useless against a 4 medivac drop. You pretty much need to scout it coming and have your units in a position to stop it or else you'll just lose a nexus or take possibly game ending damage. It just needs to be punished by a longer cooldown or something so that if you waste the boost coming in to snipe a key structure, you shouldn't be able to boost out for free.
Or maybe the time warp should start affecting air and just negate the boost altogether so that the T needs to use another path to get out safely but I think that would still be too easy since the time warp range isn't big enough and if your units were out of position during the drop they will probably still be out of position when the meds leave.
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Whether it's balanced or not, it's a hell of a lot of fun to watch.
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Protoss players should learn to fight pressure with pressure instead of sitting in the base the whole time. Their air units are very strong.
Even without air units, Parting would've won against Yoda had he not preemptively left one of those games. He also would have won that last game had he targeted the workers repairing the bunker with the oracles OR used a voidray instead. To me, it looked like a 4-1. They are still learning. I wouldn't jump the guns with nerfs.
As for MVP, let's wait until he fights YongHwa or First in the finals. I think they are better adjusted to HotS than Parting or Mana.
The more damaging tools each team has, be it oracles or medivacs or widowmines, the more exciting these games are to watch. WoL styled PvT got stale; there was too much turtling.
And there is this crazy mob mentality on TL. It seems every other person plays Protoss here. Every time a P loses, every goes mad.
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I think a slight but acceptable nerf could be this:
Medivacs are not allowed to turn (nor turn around) when boosted. It makes sense, they go so fast that they can't be as easy to control.
Regardless, I had hoped that better stargate from Protoss would allow them to defend the drops with better tools, like phoenix, but it still doesn't deal with the 10 minute bio pressure that actually kills anyone who decided to make a stargate and not one base all-in with it :D
I think it's fine for now, 4 out of 8 players left at IEM are Protoss, and PvTs were won and lost. What's important is that bad Terran players stay bad, to try to prevent the WoL Queen patch syndrome. Only IM Terrans are left, so I think it's ok. I could care less about the average Joe ladder hero's cry for balance.
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Lots of these idea's will butcher Z vs P.
Imagine how hard Air Toss would be with slowing down Zerg's air.
Faster blink would open another door for Protoss early game vs Zerg.
I feel like Blizzard implemented certain (unit's/abilities) things that are direct counters to other races but didn't take into account for the other match up. Seems kind of lazy to me, at this point.
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MVP beat mana, Terran op. wait what? LOL he could have won with a 50% handicap
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Doom drops are stronger than before but at the same time, small counter drops or just single medivac harass drops are shut down just by one nexus cannon targeting the medivac and a single warp in. Anything less than a 3 medivac drop is basically only good for forcing out energy on the MsC which ,in the 60 second window of a photon overcharge, is almost recuperated anyway. Also, in the early game, any form of detection + photon overcharge denies most early game Terran aggression. There are many tradeoffs And anyway, the medivac boost was meant to be a straight up buff to bio play, similar to how the muta change was just a straight up buff. Without the medivac as it is, there's almost no reason to play bio in HotS. You might as well play mech, which has several more advantages.
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On March 09 2013 04:20 Bagi wrote:
This is a total cliche, but I do think its too early to tell. Is terran with speedvacs and widow mine drops OP against protoss players playing WOL styles? Absolutely.
Is it OP once you factor in possible oracle openers forcing really early turrets? MSC using time warp and nexus overcharge to its fullest potential? 2 base pushes involving oracles and/or VRs that outright kill any terran trying to secure a natural after the usual reaper/mine harass?
I really think reaper and mine openers will soon fade out once protoss players learn how to punish them.
This. Give it time. Parting played a WoL based style, like he does in every game in IEM so far, with the exception of incorporating MSC in his immortal all ins. His defense in the 4th game showed a good style of defense that would have been better with MSC hovering in critical locations to fend of doom drops/cast timewarp/purify cannon. Also, phoenixes would have been good if drops become a large threat. They fly as fast as medivacs with boost on, which means u can constantly damage them in transit. Kespa players have been using them to a good degree, maybe we should too.
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I have a few thoughts:
1) MVP is better than everybody else and is going to make a lot of stuff look IMBA.
2) This ability may be the most fun thing to watch/play in the new game.
3) Protoss got a seige tank on their nexus now. Old school drops would literally be garbage without some kind of boost.
4) Protoss still have this "templar" unit which zaps the entire medivac energy, killing it in the later game when energy is high enough. Just in case you do not kill the medivac, they have this ability called "psi storm" which kills everything that pops out. Just in case everything doesn't die, see nexus seige tank above.
It's fine. Protoss 2 base all ins with oracle mixed in is what I am most worried about.
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Protoss needs to forget about colossi, they're garbage versus drops. Stargate is pretty much going to be standard, just for a phoenix to scare away medivacs.
As an aside, medivacs are the most retarded unit in Starcraft 2. Yes, more than the corruptor, marauder, or colossus. It's the ultimate no-brainer unit: if you want drops, you get free medics. If you want medics, you get free drops. And high ground vision. And escapability. It's ludicrous how good medivacs are, and yet they get two sick buffs in HotS, one of them not even researched! I honestly can't understand the reasoning, it's completely insane. Blizzard buffed them to improve them versus the infestor-heavy TvZ metagame in WoL, but it's not necessary in HotS. I *like* the speed boost, but not by default, it has to be an upgrade from the tech lab.
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Mines and afterburner aren't impossible to deal with but it forces protoss players to turtle alot imo. Terran with good multitasking benefit most from it :D
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God dammit, Terran is about to get the banhammer after the first tournament -________-
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On March 09 2013 11:27 TimENT wrote:
God dammit, Terran is about to get the banhammer after the first tournament -________-
*before the game even gets released
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On March 09 2013 10:49 lowercase wrote:
Protoss needs to forget about colossi, they're garbage versus drops. Stargate is pretty much going to be standard, just for a phoenix to scare away medivacs.
As an aside, medivacs are the most retarded unit in Starcraft 2. Yes, more than the corruptor, marauder, or colossus. It's the ultimate no-brainer unit: if you want drops, you get free medics. If you want medics, you get free drops. And high ground vision. And escapability. It's ludicrous how good medivacs are, and yet they get two sick buffs in HotS, one of them not even researched! I honestly can't understand the reasoning, it's completely insane. Blizzard buffed them to improve them versus the infestor-heavy TvZ metagame in WoL, but it's not necessary in HotS. I *like* the speed boost, but not by default, it has to be an upgrade from the tech lab.
What? No they didnt
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Now comes 6 months of nerfing Everytime the best players in the work figure out something that works for Terran. And then bam.. Most limited race and hardest to play yet again
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it's MVP vs Mana, anything would have looked imbalanced lol
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On March 09 2013 13:04 ETisME wrote:
it's MVP vs Mana, anything would have looked imbalanced lol
Mana was playing poorly in half of his matches too. A lot of questionable decision making, especially in ZvP.
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On March 09 2013 11:54 Foxxan wrote:
What? No they didnt
They did, actually. I guess Dustin Browder was upset that medivac drop play wasn't being used as much as it was before, so they planned some medivac upgrades for HotS. Then they nerfed fungal growth in both games, which directly benefits medivac play, making their buffs redundant.
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On March 09 2013 13:36 lowercase wrote:They did, actually. I guess Dustin Browder was upset that medivac drop play wasn't being used as much as it was before, so they planned some medivac upgrades for HotS. Then they nerfed fungal growth in both games, which directly benefits medivac play, making their buffs redundant.
The buff wasn't directed towards TvZ. In fact, infestors style is much weaker against drop play than Muta style and so they have to invest into spines and spores.
DB said he wanted medivac drop play to be more dominate and not seeing enough in WoL and so they invested the boost and also the medivac healing upgrade (which was removed because it was pretty imba)
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IMO, the afterburners ability is bringing in the necessary "danger" element back into TvX matchups.
Many times we've seen a GSL game turn around due to zero static defense at the drop location(s). Maybe HOTS style "wants" people to start investing in static defense more, when taking distant bases.
Also consider if the Terran player is bringing in an entire "doom" drop. Well how much of an army would you expect to be at home? I've lost many a game when I tried to go all drop fancy, then the toss decides "F it" and just takes everything they have and streamrolls my base. My army's divided up between what's at home, and what's in the drop - easy to see that his concentrated army, vs my split up one, is going to annihilate.
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On March 09 2013 13:36 Highways wrote:
Link to VODs?
The IEM page doesn't make it easy to just find the VOD's and watch them.
Here's their youtube channel, but the games that people are talking about here, aren't uploaded yet:
http://www.youtube.com/user/esltv/videos?view=0
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On March 09 2013 13:04 ETisME wrote:
it's MVP vs Mana, anything would have looked imbalanced lol
Oh god his matches against nerchio were depressing enough.
This thread bodes well for future LRs.
edit: oh god this is going all gomtvt again. "Dropping cost-efficient units that do a high amount of damage quickly is clearly more difficult than splitting a less efficient army, especially with all the deadspace on maps!"
x.x We're not going to see constructive criticism in a month if drop speed proves broken or if map designers have lost sight of fundamentals. Community gets the imbalance it deserves.
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On March 09 2013 13:56 D_K_night wrote:
IMO, the afterburners ability is bringing in the necessary "danger" element back into TvX matchups.
Many times we've seen a GSL game turn around due to zero static defense at the drop location(s). Maybe HOTS style "wants" people to start investing in static defense more, when taking distant bases.
Also consider if the Terran player is bringing in an entire "doom" drop. Well how much of an army would you expect to be at home? I've lost many a game when I tried to go all drop fancy, then the toss decides "F it" and just takes everything they have and streamrolls my base. My army's divided up between what's at home, and what's in the drop - easy to see that his concentrated army, vs my split up one, is going to annihilate.
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses.
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I don't think Protoss can open Colossi anymore unless they take a very defensive posture and have a Colossus in both their main and nat. I prefer to open Observers into Double Forge > Storm/Charge, taking a third after stopping the initial Medivac aggression timing. You're a bit behind economically, but your probe count doesn't get destroyed by drops, you can defend, catch up, and with proper control the Protoss army is stronger in the late game. I haven't had any troubles against new Medivacs. I'm more fearful of mech into sky terran, tbh.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
Be interested to see how this develops. As it stands they do look potent, but equally I do like the intensity of HoTS thus far
As a Protoss player I'm concerned that I'll be forced to stick around in my base, or do pre-medivac allins though, but nothing too major. Some of the maps today were also ideal for that kind of drop play, so it looked even stronger
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Just wait a couple of years for the game to get balanced. In the meanwhile I'll just practice my macro and mechanics; ironically the only ones who will get screwed are really high level players.
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On March 09 2013 14:11 zhurai wrote:
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses.
Well, a full medivac of marines (total cost: 500/100) will destroy two cannons easily, maybe even three but you might lose the medivac if it gets target fired. That's 300-450 minerals, then they just start to rape workers, and I mean rape them. Buildings can also get smashed if there are marauders in there. It's crazy how much better the medivac is than the dropship in BW: for 100/100 you get either a medic and a dropship for free, or a dropship and a medic for free. Plus there is no need to waste cargo space with any support units since your dropship is the medic. Now that hellbats are bio, there is literally never any reason to not build medivacs.
Granted losing a medivac full of units is painful, but it still costs only slightly more than one colossus.
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On March 09 2013 16:50 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 14:11 zhurai wrote:
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses. Well, a full medivac of marines (total cost: 500/100) will destroy two cannons easily, maybe even three but you might lose the medivac if it gets target fired. That's 300-450 minerals, then they just start to rape workers, and I mean rape them. Buildings can also get smashed if there are marauders in there. It's crazy how much better the medivac is than the dropship in BW: for 100/100 you get either a medic and a dropship for free, or a dropship and a medic for free. Plus there is no need to waste cargo space with any support units since your dropship is the medic. Now that hellbats are bio, there is literally never any reason to not build medivacs. Granted losing a medivac full of units is painful, but it still costs only slightly more than one colossus.
Can you show me a replay where a medivac flies into 2-3 cannons and doesn't die before dropping 3 marines?
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The problem is just that the protosses we saw are masters in defending against drops. Mana is one of the best european toss and considered best tvp in europe. He knows since 2 years how to deal with drops. The same goes for grubby that was destroyed by mvps after burn droping. Sure koreans are better than europeans but not in this stage of the game when it comes to defending drops. I guess the best koreans parting, mc, creator can do a bit better here but mvp would also destroy them with this drop style. I also saw rain falling against a drop play that was without afterburn so it can happen to everyone somtimes. But mvp won all games i watched by it and was never punished for a single drop he made.
Another consideradation is that protoss alrdy know the hots style of defending drops with ms core purify, they cant do much better here. The only way would be blink stalkers but its not rly a good opening and mass marauder action can kill you whitout collossi or fast storm.
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I think its time for protosses to look into possible skytoss timings and defend drops with phoenixes and oracle's revelation ability, just a guess but both units are pretty fast and phoenixes can catch up to afterburning medivacs. I've seen some phoenix zealot colossi builds so punishing drops or 10 minute timing can be done with +1 range phoenixes, photon overcharge and oracle pulsar beam?
I'm just a plat protoss so maybe some better players could help look into that?
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On March 09 2013 17:31 Donger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 16:50 lowercase wrote:On March 09 2013 14:11 zhurai wrote:
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses. Well, a full medivac of marines (total cost: 500/100) will destroy two cannons easily, maybe even three but you might lose the medivac if it gets target fired. That's 300-450 minerals, then they just start to rape workers, and I mean rape them. Buildings can also get smashed if there are marauders in there. It's crazy how much better the medivac is than the dropship in BW: for 100/100 you get either a medic and a dropship for free, or a dropship and a medic for free. Plus there is no need to waste cargo space with any support units since your dropship is the medic. Now that hellbats are bio, there is literally never any reason to not build medivacs. Granted losing a medivac full of units is painful, but it still costs only slightly more than one colossus. Can you show me a replay where a medivac flies into 2-3 cannons and doesn't die before dropping 3 marines?
The problem is that the Medivac has dual roles. It is necessary for healing, so the ability to drop essentially becomes an free extra for Terran. So you'd expect your opponent to have Medivacs regardless of whether or not they plan to drop. Dropping 450 minerals into Photon Cannons that could be Gateways is incredibly wasteful in the mid game on two bases to protect just one area from Medivacs when your opponent might not even drop.
To put it into perspective, imagine if Protoss had access to Oracles from the Gateway. They are so dangerous that you'd have to build turrets and put Widow Mines around for fear that the Protoss would warp in Oracles at anytime and decimate your mineral lines. And that would weaken Terran greatly.
And that is what is happening here, you can't just force Protoss to build cannons and not expect Protoss to be weakened greatly. Speed Medivacs is a huge buff to the mid-game harass of Terran, which Terran Bio didn't need. Bio needed a late game buff instead.
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Honestly, I think the real problem is the Widow Mine's fairly high HP total for such a cheap unit, making it near impossible for Protoss to kill them before they burrow.
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No protoss went for semi-many oracles to use as defense or harass.
To have them through the game, you even have revelation , constant vision, rly rly good
AND
as protoss, with mothership core, you do not need to invest in ANY sentrie, this is TRUE STORY.
Sentires cost alots of gas, lots. Here immediately we have extra gas to put on oracles or other tech.
PRotoss played WOL style, bigtime.
I really like the medivac speed, i like the widowmines, it will keep the game have a good variation and constant things can happen
Imagine if protoss instead of sentires and oracles and no fast colossous. PRotoss can make alot of blink stalkers, even take a fast third with his mcore
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On March 10 2013 01:11 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 17:31 Donger wrote:On March 09 2013 16:50 lowercase wrote:On March 09 2013 14:11 zhurai wrote:
also considering the terran actually puts more into the drop (such as in even WoL) than how much people usually devote into static defenses. Well, a full medivac of marines (total cost: 500/100) will destroy two cannons easily, maybe even three but you might lose the medivac if it gets target fired. That's 300-450 minerals, then they just start to rape workers, and I mean rape them. Buildings can also get smashed if there are marauders in there. It's crazy how much better the medivac is than the dropship in BW: for 100/100 you get either a medic and a dropship for free, or a dropship and a medic for free. Plus there is no need to waste cargo space with any support units since your dropship is the medic. Now that hellbats are bio, there is literally never any reason to not build medivacs. Granted losing a medivac full of units is painful, but it still costs only slightly more than one colossus. Can you show me a replay where a medivac flies into 2-3 cannons and doesn't die before dropping 3 marines? The problem is that the Medivac has dual roles. It is necessary for healing, so the ability to drop essentially becomes an free extra for Terran. So you'd expect your opponent to have Medivacs regardless of whether or not they plan to drop. Dropping 450 minerals into Photon Cannons that could be Gateways is incredibly wasteful in the mid game on two bases to protect just one area from Medivacs when your opponent might not even drop. To put it into perspective, imagine if Protoss had access to Oracles from the Gateway. They are so dangerous that you'd have to build turrets and put Widow Mines around for fear that the Protoss would warp in Oracles at anytime and decimate your mineral lines. And that would weaken Terran greatly. And that is what is happening here, you can't just force Protoss to build cannons and not expect Protoss to be weakened greatly. Speed Medivacs is a huge buff to the mid-game harass of Terran, which Terran Bio didn't need. Bio needed a late game buff instead.
I understand your point of view, but he was referring to 2-3 cannons NOT stopping drops. Terran do experience something similar early game against toss when they scout 2 early gas. It could mean a lot of different openings all of which require you to respond differently. Proxy Stargate, blink Stalkers, Immortal all-in, DT's all of which require a different response so you have to prepare for everything if your scan misses the key structures.
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On March 10 2013 01:40 Xequecal wrote:
Honestly, I think the real problem is the Widow Mine's fairly high HP total for such a cheap unit, making it near impossible for Protoss to kill them before they burrow.
One word: observer.
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I'm almost convinced Stagate openers/blink openers are going to be the norm PvT with the new Speedvacs.
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One word: observer.
What a ridiculous post. This is another game mechanic that forces the opponent to have the exact same build just to be able to -survive-. Naturally, the Terran player knows what it will be so will proceed in turn to counter that one. Just like on HOTS beta GM ladder, IEM showed Protoss is a walkover and I mean an absolute pushover for Terrans with GM level (or pro level) multitasking and micromanagement. Even when the Protoss does win, he has had to play like Parting did in his only win on Newkirk City, defending for 25minutes with templars at 15 different locations and just hoping for the Terran to make a mistake (and in that game the mistake of the Terran was not bothering to expand to 4th base ever). Basically the Terran will always be in control of the battle and will be the one who does all of the aggression, while the Protoss tries to turtle his way into 200/200 with 3-3 upgrades.
TvP matchup is in a bad shape.
I'm almost convinced Stagate openers/blink openers are going to be the norm PvT with the new Speedvacs.
I played the beta for 5 months and I can say with absolute certainty the best build against Terran are 1 base all ins that end the game before Medivacs play any role in it. 1 base blink, 1 base void rays, 1 base oracles. If you don't end the game with an all in early you'll be playing a handicapped race against a player with much better tools at his disposal. Only a vast difference in skill level can compensate for the racial handicap.
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But Stargate doesn't make sense in PvT. You have just a view expensive units that can be oneschotted by a widow mine.
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But Stargate doesn't make sense in PvT. You have just a view expensive units that can be oneschotted by a widow mine.
You make one fast (sometimes proxy) Oracle to check his build and if it's a crap build then cause some damage to the scvs, and then you make 2 void rays to be the damage dealers for your gateway units. If he went Widow Mines you use the Oracle as the observer and keep it out of combat. Then you just run up his ramp and kill everything. The Void Rays with prismatic alignment on blow up bunkers just as fast as Immortals with the added bonus that when the Marine count gets low nothing can attack them. I won around 100 games with some version of this all in on beta (masters). I feel the only times I lost I just microed bad with the Voids and don''t think it was countered by any build or defence.
...or, you could try play a standard macro game which will lead into you sitting in your 2-3 (depending on map) bases turtling with templars and hoping for the Terran to be really really bad.
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On March 10 2013 01:45 renaissanceMAN wrote:
One word: observer.
Making a robo against Terran drop play is suicide. You need units that can actually shoot the Medivacs down and the robo doesn't help you with that. Without them, they'll just keep making more and more of them and dropping you in 4 places at once.
3 Medivacs full of Widow Mines are just horrific bullshit, Medivacs with bio in them take time to unload and you can run your workers away. Medivacs with Widow Mines in them give you about 1 second to react or lose half your mineral line to splash, because you need 2 seconds for the probes to get far enough away that the widow mine doesn't shoot them anyway. Then if you successfully reacted within 1 second you now have to perfectly split up those probes into about six different directions in 3 seconds or lose them anyway as the Terran move-drops the other 3 mines across them with his super-speed medivac. Then after you succeed at that you have to bring in your detector unit and stalkers, and still have to intensively micro your stalkers because of their nasty tendency to not stop 6 range away to fire, and just run into range of the mine and get killed. Of course you won't kill more than 1 mine this way, because after Terran sees this he can just pick the mines up again. If you're up against a pro Terran, prepare to do all this in three places at once or lose the game immediately.
Photon Overcharge is not very helpful because it doesn't do enough DPS to kill a single widow mine before it burrows. The best use of it is trying to whittle the Medivacs HP down so they can't come drop you a second time, but they're always going to do damage with the first drop.
IMHO the best build right now other than allin is 15 or 17 Nexus into 1 Gate Stargate, then make Oracles and Phoenix. The Phoenix can shoot the Medivacs down and the Oracles are actually able to kill mines before they finish burrowing.
They absolutely need to reduce mine HP or reduce the splash damage to like 35 so you can't kill 12 probes with one mine missile.
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On March 10 2013 02:29 Xequecal wrote:Making a robo against Terran drop play is suicide. You need units that can actually shoot the Medivacs down and the robo doesn't help you with that. Without them, they'll just keep making more and more of them and dropping you in 4 places at once. 3 Medivacs full of Widow Mines are just horrific bullshit, Medivacs with bio in them take time to unload and you can run your workers away. Medivacs with Widow Mines in them give you about 1 second to react or lose half your mineral line to splash, because you need 2 seconds for the probes to get far enough away that the widow mine doesn't shoot them anyway. Then if you successfully reacted within 1 second you now have to perfectly split up those probes into about six different directions in 3 seconds or lose them anyway as the Terran move-drops the other 3 mines across them with his super-speed medivac. Then after you succeed at that you have to bring in your detector unit and stalkers, and still have to intensively micro your stalkers because of their nasty tendency to not stop 6 range away to fire, and just run into range of the mine and get killed. Of course you won't kill more than 1 mine this way, because after Terran sees this he can just pick the mines up again. If you're up against a pro Terran, prepare to do all this in three places at once or lose the game immediately. Photon Overcharge is not very helpful because it doesn't do enough DPS to kill a single widow mine before it burrows. The best use of it is trying to whittle the Medivacs HP down so they can't come drop you a second time, but they're always going to do damage with the first drop. IMHO the best build right now other than allin is 15 or 17 Nexus into 1 Gate Stargate, then make Oracles and Phoenix. The Phoenix can shoot the Medivacs down and the Oracles are actually able to kill mines before they finish burrowing. They absolutely need to reduce mine HP or reduce the splash damage to like 35 so you can't kill 12 probes with one mine missile.
Cannons and stalkers in position. 3 medivacs full of widow mines comes pretty late and is pretty all in.
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Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster.
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All that's needed is to ensure drop play is more of a commitment. As is, you can get in quick, reposition quick and get out quick, all in a very short time. The odds of doing damage is great because defenses can be bypassed on the way in and once inside, and the risk of trading inefficiently is minimal because the defenses can be bypassed once again when moving out.
If Terran had to decide on either going in quick or getting out quick there would be greater risk and drop play would be easier to defend. This could be done by increasing afterburn CD or even making the medivac take damage when using it.
I feel making afterburn cost energy is less of an option because it would have to cost enough that Terran can never use it twice in quick succession, which means it wouldn't be of use in the early game, or to escape from engagements, where the medivacs will have expended their energy healing.
I actually quite like the idea of afterburn damaging the medivac, because it would punish players who carelessly fly over enemy defenses, rendering them unable to use it even to escape. It would also encourage creative play using SCV's or even mules to repair the medivacs in order to do double afterburn drops.
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On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster.
Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away.
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On March 10 2013 03:05 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster. Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away.
Salvage. No Ebay required.
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On March 10 2013 03:13 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 03:05 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster. Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away. Salvage. No Ebay required.
Yes, because Protoss only make the forge for cannons. And cannons do dmg without having units in them.
I am not trying to make a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. Just saying that if you want to deny early game aggression, you will need to make static defense.
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On March 10 2013 03:18 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 03:13 Giriath wrote:On March 10 2013 03:05 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster. Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away. Salvage. No Ebay required. Yes, because Protoss only make the forge for cannons. And cannons do dmg without having units in them. I am not trying to make a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. Just saying that if you want to deny early game aggression, you will need to make static defense.
You were refuting his argument that making static defenses wasn't an option by making a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. And now you're back where you began, apparently having decided to ignore that argument.
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More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players.
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On March 10 2013 04:06 Xequecal wrote:
More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players.
Or, you know, you could:
get a forge because upgrades are actually good (:O)
Get a twi council because more upgrades are actually better (:OO)
Put 1 cannon at each mineral line kind of like build turrets/spores/spines which every other race does since they don't have warpin (:OOO)
Research blink and put stalkers not at the mineral line so if the medivacs fly over cannons you have stalkers there, and if they drop on top of cannons you can blink in! :OOOO
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On March 10 2013 02:53 Giriath wrote:
All that's needed is to ensure drop play is more of a commitment. As is, you can get in quick, reposition quick and get out quick, all in a very short time. The odds of doing damage is great because defenses can be bypassed on the way in and once inside, and the risk of trading inefficiently is minimal because the defenses can be bypassed once again when moving out.
If Terran had to decide on either going in quick or getting out quick there would be greater risk and drop play would be easier to defend. This could be done by increasing afterburn CD or even making the medivac take damage when using it.
I feel making afterburn cost energy is less of an option because it would have to cost enough that Terran can never use it twice in quick succession, which means it wouldn't be of use in the early game, or to escape from engagements, where the medivacs will have expended their energy healing.
I actually quite like the idea of afterburn damaging the medivac, because it would punish players who carelessly fly over enemy defenses, rendering them unable to use it even to escape. It would also encourage creative play using SCV's or even mules to repair the medivacs in order to do double afterburn drops.
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 10 2013 05:39 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 04:06 Xequecal wrote:
More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players. Or, you know, you could: get a forge because upgrades are actually good (:O) Get a twi council because more upgrades are actually better (:OO) Put 1 cannon at each mineral line kind of like build turrets/spores/spines which every other race does since they don't have warpin (:OOO) Research blink and put stalkers not at the mineral line so if the medivacs fly over cannons you have stalkers there, and if they drop on top of cannons you can blink in! :OOOO
You do realise that though that will work in not dying, it's not really the issue. What we're seeing is Protoss players being pinned and not establishing map control due to the risks inherent in doing so. Terrans are not always killing a Protoss with medivac timings, they're taking earlyish thirds and overwhelming the Protoss with mid game pushes.
It's defendable, but bear in mind Protoss in WoL pretty much design their builds with medivac timings in mind, and got good in this regard, but cut as many corners as possible so they could get the tech they needed.
I'm looking forward to experimenting myself, my PvT was so much better than my other matchups, I've been waiting for new Puzzles to solve!
My instinct would say that some kind of soft pressure pre-medivacs might work, in conjunction with recall or something. Kind of the same principle as the old 3gate aggro expand, you posture and get infrastructure up behind it.
Could be 100 percent wrong, but my gut tells me 'turtle better' isn't going to cut it, Protoss players if nothing else have had to develop this very skill for the entirety of WoL, there's not all that much room to improve in that regard.
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On March 10 2013 06:32 GorGor wrote:
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass.
Warp prism harass is a commitment because warped-in gateway units can't actually kill workers. Well, DTs can, but I think you can see how Dark Shrine tech counts as a commitment. When you warp prism harass Zerg, you're trying to kill tech buildings or the hatchery, which means you have to warp in a LOT of Zealots and then hope they can't respond before the important buildings go down. Warp prism harass is useless against Terran for this reason, their SCVs can just move away and the stuff you warp in can't kill anything important.
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On March 10 2013 06:32 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 02:53 Giriath wrote:
All that's needed is to ensure drop play is more of a commitment. As is, you can get in quick, reposition quick and get out quick, all in a very short time. The odds of doing damage is great because defenses can be bypassed on the way in and once inside, and the risk of trading inefficiently is minimal because the defenses can be bypassed once again when moving out.
If Terran had to decide on either going in quick or getting out quick there would be greater risk and drop play would be easier to defend. This could be done by increasing afterburn CD or even making the medivac take damage when using it.
I feel making afterburn cost energy is less of an option because it would have to cost enough that Terran can never use it twice in quick succession, which means it wouldn't be of use in the early game, or to escape from engagements, where the medivacs will have expended their energy healing.
I actually quite like the idea of afterburn damaging the medivac, because it would punish players who carelessly fly over enemy defenses, rendering them unable to use it even to escape. It would also encourage creative play using SCV's or even mules to repair the medivacs in order to do double afterburn drops.
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass.
Alright. The warp prism cannot heal, so even as a mobile warp-in point it serves less purpose than the medivac throughout the game, especially if you make more than one. It is produced from a more expensive building that is also required to build essential units like observers and colossi. To be fast it requires an upgrade from a robotics bay, which is also required to upgrade the essential colossi thermal lance range, and even then it's not as fast as a medivac using afterburner. Protoss gateway units do less dps than Terran bio, which can quickly take out tech or production, making drops less useful. To build two at a time you need two expensive robotics facilities, rather than one starport with a reactor.
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On March 10 2013 07:07 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 06:32 GorGor wrote:
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass. Warp prism harass is a commitment because warped-in gateway units can't actually kill workers. Well, DTs can, but I think you can see how Dark Shrine tech counts as a commitment. When you warp prism harass Zerg, you're trying to kill tech buildings or the hatchery, which means you have to warp in a LOT of Zealots and then hope they can't respond before the important buildings go down. Warp prism harass is useless against Terran for this reason, their SCVs can just move away and the stuff you warp in can't kill anything important.
This does not make sense, even if your premise is correct the conclusion is non-sequitor. The effectiveness of the harassment is not what is being discussed, it is this idea of "commitment." Did you even read my post before responding? Even then your premise is flawed as well. Zealot drop/warp in harass is effective against terran. If the terran army is on the map then it is very hard to handle zealot harass from a skilled protoss opponent without returning to your base with a large amount (if not all) of your army, especially with DTs mixed in (which is less of a commitment with the easier tech path than WOL). If we are discussing the effectiveness of harass however rather than the idea of "commitment" then the oracle is easily one of the most effective in the game considering the absurd dps and speed, the lack of overkill (compared to a banshee for example), the ability to chase down workers in the air without having to follow around buildings like marine drops, the survivability of the unit from its naturally very high move speed, the fact that the oracle doesn't need to unload/load like a marine drop and the utility of spells like time warp in the late game.
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On March 10 2013 07:22 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 06:32 GorGor wrote:On March 10 2013 02:53 Giriath wrote:
All that's needed is to ensure drop play is more of a commitment. As is, you can get in quick, reposition quick and get out quick, all in a very short time. The odds of doing damage is great because defenses can be bypassed on the way in and once inside, and the risk of trading inefficiently is minimal because the defenses can be bypassed once again when moving out.
If Terran had to decide on either going in quick or getting out quick there would be greater risk and drop play would be easier to defend. This could be done by increasing afterburn CD or even making the medivac take damage when using it.
I feel making afterburn cost energy is less of an option because it would have to cost enough that Terran can never use it twice in quick succession, which means it wouldn't be of use in the early game, or to escape from engagements, where the medivacs will have expended their energy healing.
I actually quite like the idea of afterburn damaging the medivac, because it would punish players who carelessly fly over enemy defenses, rendering them unable to use it even to escape. It would also encourage creative play using SCV's or even mules to repair the medivacs in order to do double afterburn drops.
Explain how warp prism harass is a "commitment." You can warp as many units in at any point (or not warp any) in addition to the units that can be dropped in the first place. The only restriction is how many gateways you have (you build those anyway). If anything protoss are the race that has the least "commitment" from their drops especially when you consider the speed of warp prisms once upgraded. Also you can warp in the direct counter to whatever units the opponent has, whether it's DT, zealot, stalker, or HT harass. Alright. The warp prism cannot heal, so even as a mobile warp-in point it serves less purpose than the medivac throughout the game, especially if you make more than one. It is produced from a more expensive building that is also required to build essential units like observers and colossi. To be fast it requires an upgrade from a robotics bay, which is also required to upgrade the essential colossi thermal lance range, and even then it's not as fast as a medivac using afterburner. Protoss gateway units do less dps than Terran bio, which can quickly take out tech or production, making drops less useful. To build two at a time you need two expensive robotics facilities, rather than one starport with a reactor.
First of all, most of what you are saying is flat out wrong, and second of all even if you show that a warp prism has a small amount of "commitment" (you aren't even doing that you are discussing mostly "effectiveness") medivacs suffer from even more "commitment" despite what protoss may believe. First of all when you factor in the lost mining time from the scv that has to build it the Starport actually costs more than the Robotics Facility, not to mention that a factory is required as a pre-requisite to tech to a starport (which in WOL was used to float around the map aimlessly for the rest of the game as a testament to how useless it was in the matchup although it is slightly more useful than that in HOTS that isn't saying much). Then you make a straw-man about building 2 warp prisms at a time from multiple robo facilities? That is just silly, because 1 warp prism can warp in as many units as you want so why would anyone mass produce them? That is the whole point that protoss need only 1 unit that DOESN'T EVEN COST GAS and they can harass with it for the rest of the game, from early game warp ins to late game multi-pronged harass and it is completely in line with the tech path that they already take in the first place. As far as the idea of "commitment" medivac harass is much greater because terran has to dedicate a lot of gas to medivacs and terran upgrades are already more expensive and less utilitarian than protoss so that gas is sorely missed. The onus is on the terran to harass as well because protoss have an overwhelming late-game deathball, but I digress. The point is that a warp prism has very little "commitment" compared to a medivac because it only costs 200 minerals and protoss can warp in as many or as few units as they want. If the Terran is outside of the pross base they can instantly warp a full round of whatever unit they want for harass in the middle of the terran base, and if they need those units for defense they can just not do that with 0 commitment to the harass other than the 200 minerals.
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On March 10 2013 06:43 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 05:39 GTPGlitch wrote:On March 10 2013 04:06 Xequecal wrote:
More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players. Or, you know, you could: get a forge because upgrades are actually good (:O) Get a twi council because more upgrades are actually better (:OO) Put 1 cannon at each mineral line kind of like build turrets/spores/spines which every other race does since they don't have warpin (:OOO) Research blink and put stalkers not at the mineral line so if the medivacs fly over cannons you have stalkers there, and if they drop on top of cannons you can blink in! :OOOO You do realise that though that will work in not dying, it's not really the issue. What we're seeing is Protoss players being pinned and not establishing map control due to the risks inherent in doing so. Terrans are not always killing a Protoss with medivac timings, they're taking earlyish thirds and overwhelming the Protoss with mid game pushes. It's defendable, but bear in mind Protoss in WoL pretty much design their builds with medivac timings in mind, and got good in this regard, but cut as many corners as possible so they could get the tech they needed. I'm looking forward to experimenting myself, my PvT was so much better than my other matchups, I've been waiting for new Puzzles to solve! My instinct would say that some kind of soft pressure pre-medivacs might work, in conjunction with recall or something. Kind of the same principle as the old 3gate aggro expand, you posture and get infrastructure up behind it. Could be 100 percent wrong, but my gut tells me 'turtle better' isn't going to cut it, Protoss players if nothing else have had to develop this very skill for the entirety of WoL, there's not all that much room to improve in that regard.
Spot on. Some sort of heavy blink stalker play with a mothership to recall incase you over commit/a drop does go off does seem like the way to go. Reminds me of the Flash HerO daily where he points out how Flash moves his marines by HerO's base on Heartbreak ridge in order to pin the mutas back home. The big question though is how do you fit detection into this/ will you have enough scouting? Mothership core early enough means you don't need sentries to block off the ridge (suppose that leaves you open to soem insane 1 base play) so you can make 1 sentry use a halu... but that'll be after you've got your tech route chosen... mn.
People complaining about the widowmine... well it just makes me think of reavers. As long as the drop paths are risky enough and the drop has a high risk/reward ratio then it's interesting and good. God knows half the problem is terrible map making with a fetish for deadspace to protect lazy airplay.
This might just be a flaw in design we have to live with. Terran gets a fragile army that needs the right composition in lategame so it gets an edge getting there. Toss unlocks all sorts of tech to beat marines and when it is unlocked they go kill the terran.
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On March 09 2013 02:38 Tenks wrote:I have a feeling afterburners is going to get nerfed because 400 APM Terrans can rip people apart and us Joe Masters Terrans are going to be screwed again
Well that's the whole idea of terran.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 10 2013 08:07 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 06:43 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 10 2013 05:39 GTPGlitch wrote:On March 10 2013 04:06 Xequecal wrote:
More questionable is his assertion that loading up Medivacs with Widow Mines and dropping with them has to be some kind of allin. I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Medivacs loaded with them off a regular expand build before Protoss can get blink researched as well as detection, let alone making 4+ cannons. Stalkers without blink have absolutely no ability to interdict drops as the Medivac can simply boost around them. Nor do they have the DPS to kill mines before they burrow, so you're still forced to frantically micro away/split probes, get your detector unit into range without flying it over a mine and getting it killed, and micro the stalkers themselves so they don't stupidly walk into mine range and get slaughtered. All this on <1sec warning where perfect success at all of these leads to Terran escaping having maybe lost one mine, and even the slightest mistake causes you to lose the game instantly.
That's against like a masters Terran. Against MVP, you have to do all of this in three places at once, which is absolutely impossible even for the best players. Or, you know, you could: get a forge because upgrades are actually good (:O) Get a twi council because more upgrades are actually better (:OO) Put 1 cannon at each mineral line kind of like build turrets/spores/spines which every other race does since they don't have warpin (:OOO) Research blink and put stalkers not at the mineral line so if the medivacs fly over cannons you have stalkers there, and if they drop on top of cannons you can blink in! :OOOO You do realise that though that will work in not dying, it's not really the issue. What we're seeing is Protoss players being pinned and not establishing map control due to the risks inherent in doing so. Terrans are not always killing a Protoss with medivac timings, they're taking earlyish thirds and overwhelming the Protoss with mid game pushes. It's defendable, but bear in mind Protoss in WoL pretty much design their builds with medivac timings in mind, and got good in this regard, but cut as many corners as possible so they could get the tech they needed. I'm looking forward to experimenting myself, my PvT was so much better than my other matchups, I've been waiting for new Puzzles to solve! My instinct would say that some kind of soft pressure pre-medivacs might work, in conjunction with recall or something. Kind of the same principle as the old 3gate aggro expand, you posture and get infrastructure up behind it. Could be 100 percent wrong, but my gut tells me 'turtle better' isn't going to cut it, Protoss players if nothing else have had to develop this very skill for the entirety of WoL, there's not all that much room to improve in that regard. Spot on. Some sort of heavy blink stalker play with a mothership to recall incase you over commit/a drop does go off does seem like the way to go. Reminds me of the Flash HerO daily where he points out how Flash moves his marines by HerO's base on Heartbreak ridge in order to pin the mutas back home. The big question though is how do you fit detection into this/ will you have enough scouting? Mothership core early enough means you don't need sentries to block off the ridge (suppose that leaves you open to soem insane 1 base play) so you can make 1 sentry use a halu... but that'll be after you've got your tech route chosen... mn. People complaining about the widowmine... well it just makes me think of reavers. As long as the drop paths are risky enough and the drop has a high risk/reward ratio then it's interesting and good. God knows half the problem is terrible map making with a fetish for deadspace to protect lazy airplay.This might just be a flaw in design we have to live with. Terran gets a fragile army that needs the right composition in lategame so it gets an edge getting there. Toss unlocks all sorts of tech to beat marines and when it is unlocked they go kill the terran.
100%, both the dead air space, and certain other factors as well look to be rather annoying for Protoss. Reminds me of old PvZ when Mutas were all the rage, certain maps made that insanely potent, other maps with different architecture made it not really wortth pursuing.
Some of the maps that this speedivac play looked really potent on also had a very open third base, it appears to be not defending on 2 fronts that is an issue currently, but defending on three, especially given the current map sets.
There will probably be some cool build designed to be strong defensively at this period of the game that comes out soon, something like Creator's Dual Forge style, in which pretty only the exact unit counts you need to hold are produced.
That said, I do 100% wish to see more before I make a proper assessment of the matchup, in other respects it does seem more dynamic when played by top players, if it makes it out of the early/midgame where there's a lot of shenanigans going down currently.
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On March 10 2013 00:49 uh-oh wrote:
oracle's revelation ability
Huh, did not even consider that as a possible solution. Not saying its THE solution, but its better to think of possible solutions rather than talking nerb bat PR release.
Just as a counterpoint, are zeegs having probs wWith drops? Or is it all about reaper, hellion, widow mine?
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On March 10 2013 13:02 wUndertUnge wrote:
Just as a counterpoint, are zeegs having probs wWith drops? Or is it all about reaper, hellion, widow mine? I don't think Z has as big issue with drops as P. Sure dealing with them got harder, but not that dramatically. Except early reapers, which maybe obvious thing to look at in TvZ, there is no particular unit/thing which is "broken". It's just that terran became better at attacking, harrassing, while they are a lot safer now. Just overall better. A ton of aggresive and harrass zerg strategies are just dead in hots now. That's little sad. Any harass/early pressure/ling runby is very risky now.
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The afterburners in the First vs. Yoda series seem to be primarily dependent on First's failures. Medivac speed was already nerfed overall once and it lead to greatly reduced drop play, I'd like to see Blizzard hold off for a while.
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On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Not to mention I really think P players need to invest in cannons earlier. Or for example, in WoL, Nexus first into forge and 1 cannon was really popular and effective 8-10 months ago, but dropped out of style. Why? I have no clue. With photon overcharge they are even more secure. I think P just need to adjust their gameplay a little more. As a high masters T in beta, I've been shut down many times with early mines...and I'm way behind. I think a large majority of P think, "gee, I have MSC now" that means i can 1 gate expand and harass now without any repercussions. Sorry, but I feel many P are using the MSC far too offensively than what it was intended to be: Many wins for me come from P moving out with both stalker, zealot and MSC and are left completely open while I just bunk up and helion and/or mine drop in their main.
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On March 10 2013 03:26 Giriath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 03:18 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 03:13 Giriath wrote:On March 10 2013 03:05 vthree wrote:On March 10 2013 02:42 Xequecal wrote:
Yeah, I can tell you with absolute certainty that making cannons to defend against Terran drops before a third base comes into play is a non-strategy. Making two cannons at each base costs way too much and is just throwing the game away.
The fact that it comes "late" also doesn't mean much, Protoss never gets units capable of killing widow mines any faster. Then I guess all the terrans should die to a blink stalkers or immortal bists because builder bunkers against Protoss is a non strategy because the cost is too high and is just throwing the game away. Salvage. No Ebay required. Yes, because Protoss only make the forge for cannons. And cannons do dmg without having units in them. I am not trying to make a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. Just saying that if you want to deny early game aggression, you will need to make static defense. You were refuting his argument that making static defenses wasn't an option by making a direct comparison between bunkers and cannons. And now you're back where you began, apparently having decided to ignore that argument.
I think you aren't understanding the difference between making a comparison and a direct comparison. The races are different most of the time, it is very difficult to make a direct comparison. For example, cannon can shoot ground and air while turrets only shoot air. But they are both static defenses which help with drops. So they can be compared and discussed as static defense. But you can never compare them directly because they have other functions which are different.
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On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it.
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become?
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On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 03:19 avilo wrote:
Oh god, i hope to god blizzard/dkim do not knee jerk nerf Terran after 1 tournament and we have a repeat of wings of liberty. It's literally one tournament, a few matches.
Barely saw any Protosses this tournament abusing the oracle builds/Protoss all-ins and 2 base oracle builds.
There's a reason everyone is playing "Wings of Liberty" style for the most part, it's because no one is a master at using the new units yet, let alone defending them and everyone wants to play a way that they are very familiar with to give them an edge vs opponent's that may be "trying something new."
If you guys start lobbying for Terran nerfs right now blindly just wait till everyone sees how the new Z/P strats will be. This is a new game, people are going to go through the learning phase as well as the metagame will go in cycles where there are some new incredibly strong builds/strats that become common place and the other races figure out how to counter them.
Widow mine drops only are "effective" right now because they are completely new. Let the game develop before you all start naysaying "this is too powerful nerf it" when next week we may see that it actually was not as powerful at all or the other races figured out how to deal with it. From what you are saying, Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn... My God, what has TL become?
No!
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On March 10 2013 14:28 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 02:37 tehemperorer wrote:
I think it's totally fair; we get photon overcharge so naturally Terran's tools have to be revamped up to make drops even viable. As long as it's possible to scout and prepare for this, it's not overpowered. We have free hallucination. In a month P will spot this coming from a mile away. Here's how it goes: open standard, scout with hallucinated phoenix, see factory and starport, get detection, position msc and a few stalkers, and continue as normal.
Not to mention I really think P players need to invest in cannons earlier. Or for example, in WoL, Nexus first into forge and 1 cannon was really popular and effective 8-10 months ago, but dropped out of style. Why? I have no clue. With photon overcharge they are even more secure. I think P just need to adjust their gameplay a little more. As a high masters T in beta, I've been shut down many times with early mines...and I'm way behind. I think a large majority of P think, "gee, I have MSC now" that means i can 1 gate expand and harass now without any repercussions. Sorry, but I feel many P are using the MSC far too offensively than what it was intended to be: Many wins for me come from P moving out with both stalker, zealot and MSC and are left completely open while I just bunk up and helion and/or mine drop in their main.
It wasn't secure, because an SCV all in absolutely rolls it over. It was good against gas openers, but as 1 Rax or CC first became more and more common, FFE PvT fell out of disuse really quickly. It wouldn't work well now, because unless you do a full wall at your ramp, Hellions don't care about a cannon or two at the front at all. Further, neither do Reapers.
I think the main issue is, until you get Blink and enough Stalkers to kill a Speedvac, you switch from deterring drops to just accepting them as a reality and limiting your losses. Parting displayed exceptional map awareness, but for the average player that may be very difficult. And even then, he was limited to 2 bases for a LONG time. Blink, Storm, Charge, and 2/2 were already halfway to finishing before his third CC was even up. And then he had to gamble for a quick fourth in order to even up economically. Speedvacs not only force P to econ slower, but they also mean T can forego scans widening the economic gap even more.
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Oh god...
I hate to say this as Terran, but I would be glad to see my race nerfed, just to see what kind of post this would trigger avilo to make.
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On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become?
I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%.
Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered.
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This will likely be nerfed, but when and to what extent, nobody really knows. I say give it a couple months before you start going nuts. Let the new game be new and give it time to be figured out for a second. Worst case Terran is OP like back in 2011 for a couple months. To combat this play style, I think better cannon positioning and more cannon play in general will become the norm. Maybe 1 gate Forge FE? IDK, but something with cannons will help defend early mine rushes, and the cannons will also be useful later on. Warp prism counter harass is also an option with dts in the later game.
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On March 10 2013 13:47 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 13:02 wUndertUnge wrote:
Just as a counterpoint, are zeegs having probs wWith drops? Or is it all about reaper, hellion, widow mine? I don't think Z has as big issue with drops as P. Sure dealing with them got harder, but not that dramatically. Except early reapers, which maybe obvious thing to look at in TvZ, there is no particular unit/thing which is "broken". It's just that terran became better at attacking, harrassing, while they are a lot safer now. Just overall better. A ton of aggresive and harrass zerg strategies are just dead in hots now. That's little sad. Any harass/early pressure/ling runby is very risky now.
That's my take on HotS too: Terran cannot be attacked early game and Z & P are forced to turtle until quite late. Which is not very fun to play or watch.
As for the people suggesting cannons against drops: they were not very effective in WoL, they still are not in HotS. You cannot cover much ground with one, and if you make 2 or more that'll cost you too much. Maybe you can prevent your probes from being slaughtered, but anyway you can move them out of the way, and the drops are more about destroying key tech buildings or nexus.
And for people suggesting air: well phoenix do shit damage against medivacs so basically they can still drop, and even if it deters the terran because you made like 3-4 of them, good luck against the 10-13 minutes timing with no AoE and phonixes...
So maybe protosses will find ways to not die to speedrops but it will mostly involve what we all hate: turtling. Plus a single mistake will cost P the game (like an MsC out of position).
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Since protoss as a race can't cost-effectively split its armies, I think giving the boosts a 25 energy cost will fix things. Now protoss can feedback them so we won't have to see speeddrops outmanouvering protoss. And the fact that f-in mines can enter dropships should be fixed as well. Or make the boost a tech lab upgrade. With fusion core requirement.
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On March 11 2013 01:41 Koesader wrote:
Since protoss as a race can't cost-effectively split its armies, I think giving the boosts a 25 energy cost will fix things. Now protoss can feedback them so we won't have to see speeddrops outmanouvering protoss. And the fact that f-in mines can enter dropships should be fixed as well. Or make the boost a tech lab upgrade. With fusion core requirement.
But its still fun gameplay with mines in drops. Why ruin the fun, isntead give protoss some fun buff
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On March 11 2013 01:41 Koesader wrote:
Since protoss as a race can't cost-effectively split its armies, I think giving the boosts a 25 energy cost will fix things. Now protoss can feedback them so we won't have to see speeddrops outmanouvering protoss. And the fact that f-in mines can enter dropships should be fixed as well. Or make the boost a tech lab upgrade. With fusion core requirement.
Both terrible suggestions. You can out-play Medivacs with proper scouting and map awareness by having units in position (or that thing that, you know, allows you to warp in units anywhere on the map) to kill the drop before it unloads; making it easier for you to crush them in any way you want doesn't promote interesting game-play.
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The best thing about the new medivac and the enhanced multi drop play is that the 1 group-death ball syndrome is backfiring for the average player :D
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On March 11 2013 00:48 ZenithM wrote:
Oh god...
I hate to say this as Terran, but I would be glad to see my race nerfed, just to see what kind of post this would trigger avilo to make.
I guess biased, as usual.
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On March 11 2013 02:01 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 01:41 Koesader wrote:
Since protoss as a race can't cost-effectively split its armies, I think giving the boosts a 25 energy cost will fix things. Now protoss can feedback them so we won't have to see speeddrops outmanouvering protoss. And the fact that f-in mines can enter dropships should be fixed as well. Or make the boost a tech lab upgrade. With fusion core requirement. But its still fun gameplay with mines in drops. Why ruin the fun, isntead give protoss some fun buff
Exactly. You shouldn't only consider balance when adjusting units, you should also consider what it will do to the gameplay and the players' and viewers' enjoyment of it. The new Terran drops are fun to do and watch. If they're too strong against Protoss, buff something in the Protoss arsenal that will make them weaker but at least as fun, e.g. buff Blink somehow.
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My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again.
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On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again.
Free and easy is Blizzard's new approach. Another example is the new reapers, or mutas, they generate their health for no reason, no cost and it doesn't require decision or action. Even new or redesigned casters (MSc, Vipers, Ravens) pop up with all the abilities available. Maybe cutting difficulties is blizzard's way to reduce the gap between beginners and those who play WoL for +2 years ? I don't know.
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I like the idea of outrageous units... just spread it out more.
let's see an Ultra morph into mega-baneling!
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The game isnt even out and people are already whining about speed medivacs....seriously
Give the protoss some time to adjust to it before nerfing medivacs.
(And if it has to be a nerf,just increase the damage the medivacs take during the speed boost.)
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On March 11 2013 03:16 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Free and easy is Blizzard's new approach. Another example is the new reapers, or mutas, they generate their health for no reason, no cost and it doesn't require decision or action. Even new or redesigned casters (MSc, Vipers, Ravens) pop up with all the abilities available. Maybe cutting difficulties is blizzard's way to reduce the gap between beginners and those who play WoL for +2 years ? I don't know.
I don't think that's it. Upgrades like siege mode generally exist to slow down certain timings. Blizzard just wants to make a faster paced game with HotS, WoL as becoming way too slow and passive at the end, much due to their own balancing prowess, actually. In HotS, they decided to remove cumbersome upgrades, increase speed on units (both of those you mentioned, got a speed boost with their "free regen", plus the medivac), lower tech requirements for a lot of Zerg stuff and all that. It will lead to a much faster game. And generally more multitask intensive.
I think that's their mindset and I hope it'll work out that way, but we can't really tell for now
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On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered.
Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps.
1) make a forge
2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line
3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone
4) Profit
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On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again.
Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport.
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On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport.
Take note that some people might not get your sarcasm — unfortunate truth in dealing with masses.
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On March 11 2013 05:02 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered. Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps. 1) make a forge 2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line 3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone 4) Profit
A cannon in the mineral line just like T (bunker or turret) and Z (spore/spine) do against a drop?
Heresy! Any such deviation is an OUTRAGE! Speedvacs need to be removed!
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On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport.
Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time.
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I think the ability in itself is fine but they should make the cooldown long enough so that you have to decide to either use the ability for a quick entry or for a safe retreat. This change should make those drops either much more risky or much less easier to respond to.
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On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time.
FreeUnitCraft 2
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Maybe at the very least make it so they cant use the ability while taking dmg so they can not just automatically get away?
I see both mines and medivac getting severe nerfs
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 11 2013 05:02 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered. Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps. 1) make a forge 2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line 3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone 4) Profit
5). Die to huge bio pushes off three bases because you have spent extra cash on structures and units just to hold a timing from Terran that is now much more potent than in WoL.
This isn't like late game Zerg that can afford to spend all that cash.
I love all these simplistic breakdowns of everything. I await a pro or a good theorycrafter to come up with something cool. Remember the 'counter' to 1/1/1 was a mystery until people discovered 1 gate fe and nexus first builds could hold it.
I rewatched some of IEM yesterday and the issue to me isn't defending your main and natural, but establishing a third. Parting is a phenomenal player and still was so close to dying to Yoda in that epic game, and his defensive positioning was top notch that game
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On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time.
That would be so terrible. Sure, it's nice for the first 4... But then you realize that medivacs take up supply and they just keep on coming. You'll have to send in wave after wave of the non-attacking medivac into the enemy or die the death of an infinite supply block.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Before speed medivacs get nerfed I think we need to see some more experimentation out of Protoss. We've seen that, if a Protoss does standard WoL openings, they are going to be disadvantaged due to speed medivacs and Widow Mine+Medivac openings.
What about Stargate openings? This is the obvious counter-tech if you are afraid of Medivacs. There is nothing a Medivac can do to escape a Phoenix. At least on maps like Newkirk City Phoenix would be an extremely solid defense to them with all the open air space between the two player's bases. And they come out in time to defend Widow Mine drops (also you can pick up Widow Mines during their 3 second burrow animation).
Between Oracles, Photon Overcharge, and Time Warp, Protoss has a lot of new tools in holding off the 7-9 minute bio pressure that made Stargate openings so flimsy. We already saw MC hold off the standard stim timing off of Stargate in WoL (against players like Polt no less).
I think it's an area that needs to be explored before we say Protoss is too weak against the new Medivac.
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On March 11 2013 06:06 Msr wrote:
Maybe at the very least make it so they cant use the ability while taking dmg so they can not just automatically get away?
I see both mines and medivac getting severe nerfs
Or maybe that they can't drop and load units while having a speed buff? Don't really know if Medivacs are that imbalanced, just throwing out ideas. We will see in a few months or so.
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On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time.
It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection.
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On March 11 2013 06:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered. Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps. 1) make a forge 2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line 3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone 4) Profit 5). Die to huge bio pushes off three bases because you have spent extra cash on structures and units just to hold a timing from Terran that is now much more potent than in WoL. This isn't like late game Zerg that can afford to spend all that cash. I love all these simplistic breakdowns of everything. I await a pro or a good theorycrafter to come up with something cool. Remember the 'counter' to 1/1/1 was a mystery until people discovered 1 gate fe and nexus first builds could hold it. I rewatched some of IEM yesterday and the issue to me isn't defending your main and natural, but establishing a third. Parting is a phenomenal player and still was so close to dying to Yoda in that epic game, and his defensive positioning was top notch that game
oh my god 300 minerals so expensive... unless you never get upgrades or stalkers?
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oh my god 300 minerals so expensive... unless you never get upgrades or stalkers?
How exactly does 1 cannon behind a mineral line counter solo or double medivac drops to the main? You can either destroy the cannon with ease or just drop outside its range and take out tech buildings ad nauseum and other harass. Cannons are really only a late game solution to drop play. They work when you're on 3 or more bases and have tons of extra minerals and are otherwise supply capped, and that's when you don't put 1 cannon at your expansions, you put about 6.
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On March 11 2013 06:35 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time. It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection.
The speed ability is a buff. Why would we pay for it? Did you pay something for faster regenerating and accelerating mutas? Did you pay something for better void rays?
Design-wise, it's exactly (and I mean, litterally exactly) the same as Corruption or Void-Ray charge, an ability with a cooldown, no upgrade to research. While I agree that Corruption sucks and medivac boost is super good, that's not the point. Everyone's cry about how the buff is "free" and whatnot is nonsense and, let's face it, idiotic.
It's a balance change in a whole new game, it's not supposed to entitle Protoss and Zergs to a compensation of some sort, get over it.
Edit: Note that I'm not saying anything on the potential OPness of said boost ability. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and David Kim already said that they were looking at it anyway.
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They open up drops while the opponent is only on two bases, and delays a third for a LONG time. Protoss is the slowest of the three races to get the economy rolling, and this hampers that ability further (not to mention how easy it is to scout with a Speedvac and using those saved scans on Mules).
The second main issue, is that until you have a big Stalker ball/Blink and a large amount of units in the front to not just straight up die to stim pushes, the drops will happen. No amount of positioning stops it due to the low amount of units and the high speed of what you're trying to stop. I just think that's a bad way to have things, where the default answer is "limit damage" as opposed to prevention.
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This week-end will be a shit-storm, the MLG terran lineup is made of nothing but huge korean names, meanwhile the ugly zergs and the girly protoss will be represented by a koreans/foreigners mix. It'll be ugly, and the following nerfbat hit even uglier.
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Drops are still a non-issue, so this thread is largely pointless. Speed-boost with a 20 second cooldown does not mean that you can't defend drops anymore, because if you're using sensor towers/overlords/observers properly then drops will be spotted en-route to which then they can easily be repelled with waiting units — the same exact way in WoL.
If you lose to them it simply means that you're losing because you're being outplayed. Period.
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I was ok with the medivac boost, but after seeing the PartinG vs Yoda series, oh well...
the OPness of the new medivac really gets in your face in that series... I was laughing at the casters trying to explain why PartinG was always behind without calling the medivacs OP. Hahahaha
My predctions for MLG,
-zerg: gets crushed;
-protoss: there will be a looooot of 1-base all ins (especially stargate all-ins) in the PvT matchup;
-terran: wins any standard game against opponents of same level.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 11 2013 06:45 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 06:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 05:02 GTPGlitch wrote:On March 11 2013 00:51 Xequecal wrote:On March 10 2013 23:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From what you are saying,
Failing to position your MSC well enough to intercept the drop with Photon overcharge AFTER the mines (mines cannot attack buildings) have burrowed, thus forcing not 3 but 6 seconds to burrow AND unburrow (while being shot by the nexus the whole time) to chase the probes being transfered to the natural is cause to nerf the afterburn...
My God, what has TL become? I'm mainly annoyed that it's yet another strategy that requires far more APM to defend than it does to execute, at least for 99% of people playing the game. Maybe there actually is an APM level that you can reach where you can credibly defend, regardless of the APM of the Terran opponent, but it still makes the game ungodly miserable for the other 99%. Against most strategies, when you're not at the top, you can make up for deficiencies in one area of play by being really good at other areas. Stuff like this becomes rage inducing because you can go into a game and know exactly what strat he's going to use and also know that you're going to die to it despite guessing it ahead of time because the only available counter is "click faster." You can't outmacro it, you can't predict it and choose a trump strategy, you're just going to lose because your APM isn't high enough. It's 1/1/1 all over again, if your APM was below a certain level you had no hope, you could be beating masters Zergs routinely but silver Terrans could still a-move over you because APM was all that mattered. Since you appear to have an aversion to using your brain, i'll lay it out for you in 4 simple steps. 1) make a forge 2) put a cannon or two covering your mineral line 3) when you see the drops coming put stalkers in the path of medivacs when they fly past cannons for a safe dropzone 4) Profit 5). Die to huge bio pushes off three bases because you have spent extra cash on structures and units just to hold a timing from Terran that is now much more potent than in WoL. This isn't like late game Zerg that can afford to spend all that cash. I love all these simplistic breakdowns of everything. I await a pro or a good theorycrafter to come up with something cool. Remember the 'counter' to 1/1/1 was a mystery until people discovered 1 gate fe and nexus first builds could hold it. I rewatched some of IEM yesterday and the issue to me isn't defending your main and natural, but establishing a third. Parting is a phenomenal player and still was so close to dying to Yoda in that epic game, and his defensive positioning was top notch that game oh my god 300 minerals so expensive... unless you never get upgrades or stalkers?
Going stalker heavy is historically pretty bad in straight-up engagements as the game progresses. That's why WoL builds tend to keep Stalker counts as low as they can, especially when the Chargelot/Ups style became popular, to save the gas and tech up quicker, the same approach isn't going to work as well given stalkers bad DPS, and medivac's increased manouverability means we as a race may have to re-evaluate our approach.
150 for a forge that you mightn't use at that period, and cannons in mineral lines for something that mightn't even happen. Cannons which are static and extremely overrated as drop defence anyway until the late game/in conjunction with templars.
That period of the game is critical for Protoss, as they need to establish upgrades, and or get their splash damage out. It's like telling Zergs to spine up all over the place to avoid dying to pressures. Yeah they won't die, but they'll be in a bad spot for the lategame for spending that cash/converting drones to buildings.
Equally I don't feel this is 'broken' yet, but it's still worth keeping an eye on. 'Build forge and cannons' isn't particularly a good solution, at least imo.
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I think you need to take a more discerning look at that gameplay, there are several instances where the Terran executor can't/wont go in for the widow mine drop because the protoss has stalkers set up to defend or obs around the perimeter for that extra vision of the base. There are several instances where it is denied outright, yes, you can always try to muscle your way in but you risk losing the medivac and the contents.
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Let's not forget there's mine clearing via
hallucinated units such as probe.
But that would require a stargate for an
oracle harass opening since the MsC has
no detection.
I don't see why Protoss can't 1/1/1 as well?
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I want to see how stargate openings fit into this discussion. I would like to see how void ray/oracle harass at the terran base fits into the timings for the terran drop harass. If the toss can "pin" the terran instead of being pinned himself then he can open a variety of simple defenses for drops, such as photon overcharge or intercepting medivacs with phoenix, especially after they have already boosted into the base. I would also like to see how forge/cannon play will develop in the matchup as it surely will. The FFE in WOL PvZ took about a year to be explored enough to become more or less standard, and there is still a pretty vague idea of what is "standard" for terran wall offs/run by prevention in TvZ so surely there will be development in cannon placement in HOTS PvT. Also DT harass has some potential for abusive timings if the terran rushes for medivacs and neglects detection, this doesn't include MSC harass or blink stalker timings. Ultimately I feel as if WOL style protoss play is less than effective against new HOTS mechanics then it would be refreshing to see the paradigm inverted and to watch protoss evolve into the agressors in the matchup with their new abilities for harass. Maybe seeing oracle/tempest combos (as the revelation ability was intended) from more aggressive protoss. Throughout WOL the onus for aggression was on the Terran to "stop" the protoss from achieving deathball status which can hit as soon as 15 minutes if the terran lets it happen. If that fundamental truth of the matchup is proven to no longer hold due to terran multasking being more rewarding in the mid-late game ultimately more robust and diverse strategy will develop from it. Simply crying "NERF IT NAO BLIZZARD!!!!11" really makes me sad as although I don't feel if the final WOL balance was perfect I do feel as if the journey/development of the meta around certain standards was far more interesting than if Blizzard was to simply insta-nerf strategies before they could be fully understood.
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Winnermines and Imbavacs are both great new additions for Terran. I really hope Blizz just leave them as they are...
Coming from a Protoss point of view I really look forward to the challenge of shutting down the MVP style (albeit at Diamond level).
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On March 11 2013 09:43 GorGor wrote:
I want to see how stargate openings fit into this discussion. I would like to see how void ray/oracle harass at the terran base fits into the timings for the terran drop harass. If the toss can "pin" the terran instead of being pinned himself then he can open a variety of simple defenses for drops, such as photon overcharge or intercepting medivacs with phoenix, especially after they have already boosted into the base. I would also like to see how forge/cannon play will develop in the matchup as it surely will. The FFE in WOL PvZ took about a year to be explored enough to become more or less standard, and there is still a pretty vague idea of what is "standard" for terran wall offs/run by prevention in TvZ so surely there will be development in cannon placement in HOTS PvT. Also DT harass has some potential for abusive timings if the terran rushes for medivacs and neglects detection, this doesn't include MSC harass or blink stalker timings. Ultimately I feel as if WOL style protoss play is less than effective against new HOTS mechanics then it would be refreshing to see the paradigm inverted and to watch protoss evolve into the agressors in the matchup with their new abilities for harass. Maybe seeing oracle/tempest combos (as the revelation ability was intended) from more aggressive protoss. Throughout WOL the onus for aggression was on the Terran to "stop" the protoss from achieving deathball status which can hit as soon as 15 minutes if the terran lets it happen. If that fundamental truth of the matchup is proven to no longer hold due to terran multasking being more rewarding in the mid-late game ultimately more robust and diverse strategy will develop from it. Simply crying "NERF IT NAO BLIZZARD!!!!11" really makes me sad as although I don't feel if the final WOL balance was perfect I do feel as if the journey/development of the meta around certain standards was far more interesting than if Blizzard was to simply insta-nerf strategies before they could be fully understood.
I too would like to see how stargate could be implemented in the PvT matchup. the problem is that it needs time do develop new builds and strategies.
And with HotS closed till MLG, I expect a lot of protoss players to just die before developing any stargate play that is capable of countering the medivac boost.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On March 11 2013 10:03 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 09:43 GorGor wrote:
I want to see how stargate openings fit into this discussion. I would like to see how void ray/oracle harass at the terran base fits into the timings for the terran drop harass. If the toss can "pin" the terran instead of being pinned himself then he can open a variety of simple defenses for drops, such as photon overcharge or intercepting medivacs with phoenix, especially after they have already boosted into the base. I would also like to see how forge/cannon play will develop in the matchup as it surely will. The FFE in WOL PvZ took about a year to be explored enough to become more or less standard, and there is still a pretty vague idea of what is "standard" for terran wall offs/run by prevention in TvZ so surely there will be development in cannon placement in HOTS PvT. Also DT harass has some potential for abusive timings if the terran rushes for medivacs and neglects detection, this doesn't include MSC harass or blink stalker timings. Ultimately I feel as if WOL style protoss play is less than effective against new HOTS mechanics then it would be refreshing to see the paradigm inverted and to watch protoss evolve into the agressors in the matchup with their new abilities for harass. Maybe seeing oracle/tempest combos (as the revelation ability was intended) from more aggressive protoss. Throughout WOL the onus for aggression was on the Terran to "stop" the protoss from achieving deathball status which can hit as soon as 15 minutes if the terran lets it happen. If that fundamental truth of the matchup is proven to no longer hold due to terran multasking being more rewarding in the mid-late game ultimately more robust and diverse strategy will develop from it. Simply crying "NERF IT NAO BLIZZARD!!!!11" really makes me sad as although I don't feel if the final WOL balance was perfect I do feel as if the journey/development of the meta around certain standards was far more interesting than if Blizzard was to simply insta-nerf strategies before they could be fully understood. I too would like to see how stargate could be implemented in the PvT matchup. the problem is that it needs time do develop new builds and strategies. And with HotS closed till MLG, I expect a lot of protoss players to just die before developing any stargate play that is capable of countering the medivac boost.
HoTS isn't closed until MLG, it goes up Tuesday :p
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On March 11 2013 07:53 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
This week-end will be a shit-storm, the MLG terran lineup is made of nothing but huge korean names, meanwhile the ugly zergs and the girly protoss will be represented by a koreans/foreigners mix. It'll be ugly, and the following nerfbat hit even uglier.
Wow didn't even realize haha. Especially Zergs: only Life and Leenock, and maybe Stephano. I wouldn't call them favorite against the only Terrans in the lineup to not have a major title: Last, Innovation (lawl), and Flash (lololawl).
This event will be a fun slaughter, but at least Zergs will get their much requested buff.
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Don't nerf things yet. Buff if you have to, but nerfs should be few (in case of glaring OPness) and far between (to allow for the meta to evolve defences).
That being said, I don't like the ability in its current form. Static defence against drops has always been hit or miss. The medivacs have always been able to just find a different opening in base defences (covering every angle with static defence is prohibitively expensive). With the speed boost, this becomes easier and quicker.
Should a nerf be needed I'd prefer a risk/reward approach. Make the medivac move at half speed once the boost has expired. This introduces an element of stategy on when to use the boost, its use carries some risk, and allows two parameters to be tuned for balance (cooldown of the boost, and the speed penalty).
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Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty...
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Yes, gateway/robo openings work on early widow mine/medivac drop, two H.probes and two zealots should have no problem cleaning up the widow mines,
Whether the P can deal with the spaced out drops with a mutliprong, is another issue entirely.
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On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty...
Gom TvT and then Swarm season both instances of much too slow patching?
I think Wombat is pretty on the money. The matchup seems a lot more fragile with how the lategame develops than I think others believe but that definitely needs to be tested by more matches.
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No...just wait....game is released tomorrow.....players have not developed a way to deal with these...relax....enjoy the game and relax...
Im just saying if P and Z has new tools, T should too, and if T does not have speedvacs and WM, what will T be? Just the same as WOL? Speed is fine. Maybe a little nerf like requiring energy or something is... ok I guess...
Leave WM alone though....with proper micro and map awareness WM can be dealt just fine.....I am tired of seeing Terrans nerfed, and I play random now lol
Or maybe since P and Z always complain about T...just remove the race altogether lol
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On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty...
If you're going to count ultralisks, you should include reapers for Terran. Both not new units, but changed significantly for HoTS.
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Speedvacs simply need a drawback - like an energy cost or hp damage.
Widowsmines idk - I think vs toss they are kind of ok, but vs zerg they really severely limit gameplay options, which seems pretty bad to me.
Also since terrans are finally figuring out that making huge amounts of orbitals is not only equal to having many scvs but far superior due to the added scans and the ability to supersaturate any mineral line...
Well I think some slight adjustments to the mules might finally be in order.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty...
Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around.
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On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around.
I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here.
Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T?
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On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. [...]
Yet, Terran, even as the weakest race, was still the most well designed. You must not confuse design with raw strength, it's quite unrelated. It didn't need ridiculous buffs like Zerg ones to still be competitive in the hands of very skilled and talented players, while everybody else was losing with it. That stands proof of how well designed Terran is.
David Kim said in a recent interview that he feels the 3 races are now complete, while only Terran was before. We'll see if that holds true :D
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Completely agree with Terran being the best designed race in terms of functionality. But I don't consider the Zerg and Protoss complete to the degree that Terran is. Small but meaningful upgrades like 'Hi-sec auto tracking' 'Building armour' 'Durable materials' cannot be found in Z or P.
Predicted Balance Change:
1) Medivacs have techlab upgrade 'Mount Afterburners' : 50M 50G (60 seconds research time). Enough time for Z and P to build adequate defences. Also requiring Techlab would hinder numbers (initially)
But that is all I can foresee... the Imbarays will stay as they are, Z will have to learn to land blinding clouds on P deathballs.
As it stands the viper cloud can be cast at a range of 9 (the same as the High Templar feedback).
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On March 11 2013 16:16 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Completely agree with Terran being the best designed race in terms of functionality. But I don't consider the Zerg and Protoss complete to the degree that Terran is. Small but meaningful upgrades like 'Hi-sec auto tracking' 'Building armour' 'Durable materials' cannot be found in Z or P.
Predicted Balance Change:
1) Medivacs have techlab upgrade 'Mount Afterburners' : 50M 50G (60 seconds research time). Enough time for Z and P to build adequate defences. Also requiring Techlab would hinder numbers (initially)
But that is all I can foresee... the Imbarays will stay as they are, Z will have to learn to land blinding clouds on P deathballs.
As it stands the viper cloud can be cast at a range of 9 (the same as the High Templar feedback).
Afaik Blinding Cloud doesn't have any effect on air units.
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On March 11 2013 16:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 16:16 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Completely agree with Terran being the best designed race in terms of functionality. But I don't consider the Zerg and Protoss complete to the degree that Terran is. Small but meaningful upgrades like 'Hi-sec auto tracking' 'Building armour' 'Durable materials' cannot be found in Z or P.
Predicted Balance Change:
1) Medivacs have techlab upgrade 'Mount Afterburners' : 50M 50G (60 seconds research time). Enough time for Z and P to build adequate defences. Also requiring Techlab would hinder numbers (initially)
But that is all I can foresee... the Imbarays will stay as they are, Z will have to learn to land blinding clouds on P deathballs.
As it stands the viper cloud can be cast at a range of 9 (the same as the High Templar feedback).
Afaik Blinding Cloud doesn't have any effect on air units.
And neither you can against spell caster.
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On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T?
Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance.
If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got:
-Muta speed and regen buff
-Ultra damage buff
-Hydralisk speed buff
-Vipers
-Swarm Hosts
-Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech
Terran got:
-Siege Tank not needing an upgrade
-Reaper redesign
-Thor got new mode
-Widow Mine
-Hellbat
-Medivac speed boost
-Seeker Missile redesign
-Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy
Protoss got:
-Mothership Core
-Oracle
-Tempest
-Void Ray buff
-Hallucination not requiring an upgrade
-Carrier buff
So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen.
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I think they really need to take a good look at the burrow time of widow mines. You can see them coming and fire on them with two stalkers and the mine is still able to burrow. I think the mines shouldn't be so much of an offensive but defensive weapon. If they were to increase the burrow time from 2 to 4 seconds, I feel like Protoss would have a fair amount of time to prevent their entire mineral line from being blow to shreds. Not to mention the amount of time you can no longer mine until gaining vision.
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On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen.
You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread.
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Game not even released and you guys want all the things making HOTS actually interesting nerfed.
Protoss talk about fair amount of time to prevent their entire mineral line from being blown to shreds when they have a FLYING unit that can kill 25+ workers in seconds given the energy that can escape whereas a widow mine is planted and usually dies where its planted. And I'm not even complaining about the oracle or the fact that Dream lost to First and cost me 60$ because of this oracle being pretty powerful, because I'm using it as a frame of reference to compare you all whining about Terran. Continue the way you OP T idiots do and we will end up with a snooze-fest game like WoL is currently where you just play Zerg or Protoss all day with the occasional spot of Terran.
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On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread.
Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is.
Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you.
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On March 11 2013 22:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread. Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is. Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you.
Hes not being hypocritical, hes not being in support of Terran race, just addressing your obvious Zerg bias.
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On March 11 2013 22:58 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 22:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread. Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is. Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you. Hes not being hypocritical, hes not being in support of Terran race, just addressing your obvious Zerg bias.
Why are you even talking about something you know nothing about? I am talking about his other posts that I saw. I am not that biased because I am not playing much, but love watching pro scene, and love seeing good match, no matter who win in the end. I am not balance whining how everything is too strong/too weak, like majority of you "pros" are doing. I even admitted that I made a mistake about not listing Ovi speed and Burrow separately, something that 90% of people in these forums won't even think about.
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On March 11 2013 07:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 06:35 Cloak wrote:On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time. It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection. The speed ability is a buff. Why would we pay for it? Did you pay something for faster regenerating and accelerating mutas? Did you pay something for better void rays? Design-wise, it's exactly (and I mean, litterally exactly) the same as Corruption or Void-Ray charge, an ability with a cooldown, no upgrade to research. While I agree that Corruption sucks and medivac boost is super good, that's not the point. Everyone's cry about how the buff is "free" and whatnot is nonsense and, let's face it, idiotic. It's a balance change in a whole new game, it's not supposed to entitle Protoss and Zergs to a compensation of some sort, get over it. Edit: Note that I'm not saying anything on the potential OPness of said boost ability. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and David Kim already said that they were looking at it anyway.
It's a caster with a cooldown ability, like if Ghosts could EMP on cooldown and spam their energy on Snipe and Cloak. Voids and Mutas were underutilized and needed to be revamped. Medivacs were certainly not underutilized.
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On March 11 2013 22:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread. Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is. Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you.
You also forgot Spores not requiring an evo chamber, cheaper dark shrine and if you count new abilities on old units separately you have to count new abilities on new units separately as well which would result in a very different picture.
I am not saying terran didn't get their fair share or that counting changes for each race and comparing them is a good way to discuss gameplay but that's what you got yourself into with making an angry low effort post like this.
At the end of WOL I think it was pretty obvious that terran gameplay was very one dimensional since early aggression was not really an option anymore. I think the medivac change is one of the very good adjustments to this problem Blizzard made but probably it's too strong in it's current form. I'm wondering if the old medivac before the speed nerf would still be considered overpowered. However a big nerf to this ability is not a good idea because it's a change that doesn't effect only early aggression it also affects long macro games and the ability for terran to compete in the late game. If we want to make terran weaker in the early we should do it in a way that doesn't hurt terrans in the macro game as well.
On March 11 2013 23:21 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 07:20 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 06:35 Cloak wrote:On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time. It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection. The speed ability is a buff. Why would we pay for it? Did you pay something for faster regenerating and accelerating mutas? Did you pay something for better void rays? Design-wise, it's exactly (and I mean, litterally exactly) the same as Corruption or Void-Ray charge, an ability with a cooldown, no upgrade to research. While I agree that Corruption sucks and medivac boost is super good, that's not the point. Everyone's cry about how the buff is "free" and whatnot is nonsense and, let's face it, idiotic. It's a balance change in a whole new game, it's not supposed to entitle Protoss and Zergs to a compensation of some sort, get over it. Edit: Note that I'm not saying anything on the potential OPness of said boost ability. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and David Kim already said that they were looking at it anyway. It's a caster with a cooldown ability, like if Ghosts could EMP on cooldown and spam their energy on Snipe and Cloak. Voids and Mutas were underutilized and needed to be revamped. Medivacs were certainly not underutilized.
Medivacs weren't but drop play was.
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On March 11 2013 21:47 Obamanation666 wrote:
I think they really need to take a good look at the burrow time of widow mines. You can see them coming and fire on them with two stalkers and the mine is still able to burrow. I think the mines shouldn't be so much of an offensive but defensive weapon. If they were to increase the burrow time from 2 to 4 seconds, I feel like Protoss would have a fair amount of time to prevent their entire mineral line from being blow to shreds. Not to mention the amount of time you can no longer mine until gaining vision.
This is in fact the easiest way to balance the mine. With 4 seconds burrow time they should be harder to use offensively until the Drilling Claws upgrade is researched.
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On March 11 2013 23:22 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 22:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 21:56 DemigodcelpH wrote:On March 11 2013 19:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On March 11 2013 13:58 Swordland wrote:On March 11 2013 13:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 11 2013 12:32 Swordland wrote:
Hahaha seriously. What does terran have without these two? Just hellbats? Whereas Zergs received viper, swarm host, ultralisk etc, and protoss got tempest ,MC, timewarp, oracle, ggrays?
Cmon. as far as I remember, Terrans only got 3 major things (or maybe just 3 things). Hellbats, WM and speedvacs. thats all. Protoss has that thing that can defend vs drops too, is it called photon overcharge?
With photon overcharge, how can terran do any drops again? They need something to level it up. Protoss has photon, terran has speedvacs.
This is good discussion but please stop saying nerf terran nerf terran.....just remember Wings of liberty... Terran didn't need all that much, because Terran is a good, well-designed race that is fun as hell to play with. Hard mind, but the other races should be made to function more like T, not the other way around. I dont want to have to start another "hated" balance talk, but I am sure I dont need to remind you that the last months in WoL....how many PRO, KOREAN terrans struggling.... I will stop here. Moving on, yes, if Z and P can have good stuff in their arsenal, why shoudn't T? Your post is funny, since he is talking about design of Terran race, while you ignore his points, and after saying how you don't want to start talking about balance, just after that you start talking about balance, when in fact nobody even said anything about balance. If you want to compare what races got(which is pointless by itself, since races aren't equal and shouldn't be equal by design), Zerg got: -Muta speed and regen buff -Ultra damage buff -Hydralisk speed buff -Vipers -Swarm Hosts -Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech Terran got: -Siege Tank not needing an upgrade -Reaper redesign -Thor got new mode -Widow Mine -Hellbat -Medivac speed boost -Seeker Missile redesign -Battle Cruiser Yamato Cannon costing less energy Protoss got: -Mothership Core -Oracle -Tempest -Void Ray buff -Hallucination not requiring an upgrade -Carrier buff So, out of all changes, Terran got the most. Stop being biased please. And I am not even talking about balance, it is too early for balance talk, strategies aren't even developed yet. But your crying is premature, you got more changes to old units, just because you don't consider them good(or changes at all) doesn't mean that they didn't happen. You're hypocritical and also biased in that "Burrow and Ovi Speed Hatchery tech" should definitely be listed as two separate changes in that the burrow change has nothing to do with Overlords, and the Overlord speed change has nothing to do with the units that burrow. Please keep the entitled Zerg whine out of this thread. Wow, out of everything from my post, you've found one little mistake, and you already want to kill me. I am not whining, I am explaining to the guy that think that Terran has less changes than Protoss and Zerg, when in fact Terran has more, even if Burrow and Overlord speed are separate changes, Terran still got one more change than the Zerg. And with your "Zerg whine" comment, you really are showing that you lack reading comprehension, or simple understanding what "whine" is. Oh, and it seems that you are using hypocritical wrong too, if anything is hypocritical, it is saying how you are objective because you play as random, while completely being biased towards the Terran race. Yes, I am talking about you. You also forgot Spores not requiring an evo chamber, cheaper dark shrine and if you count new abilities on old units separately you have to count new abilities on new units separately as well which would result in a very different picture. I am not saying terran didn't get their fair share or that counting changes for each race and comparing them is a good way to discuss gameplay but that's what you got yourself into with making an angry low effort post like this. At the end of WOL I think it was pretty obvious that terran gameplay was very one dimensional since early aggression was not really an option anymore. I think the medivac change is one of the very good adjustments to this problem Blizzard made but probably it's too strong in it's current form. I'm wondering if the old medivac before the speed nerf would still be considered overpowered. However a big nerf to this ability is not a good idea because it's a change that doesn't effect only early aggression it also affects long macro games and the ability for terran to compete in the late game. If we want to make terran weaker in the early we should do it in a way that doesn't hurt terrans in the macro game as well. Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 23:21 Cloak wrote:On March 11 2013 07:20 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 06:35 Cloak wrote:On March 11 2013 05:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 11 2013 05:17 GorGor wrote:On March 11 2013 03:03 Cloak wrote:
My only complaint with Speedivac is that it's free in every regard. Free to cast and comes free. MsC ain't free. Swarm Host ain't free. Why has Blizzard decided to try this whole new balancing approach to only Terrans? Wasn't that the point of WoL to let these timings settle? Now we're just going to ignore what Flash did to Rain (best Toss defense for drop play in the world) even without Speedivacs and Blink nerf. David Kim even admitted himself that he treats his personal experience with Terran as his balance indicator, said during the Blizz AMA. If he's having trouble, no way Korean Terrans could do better. Might have to skip every TvP if it becomes GSL season 1 and 2 again. Yeah they should not let medivacs come for free, they should make them cost at least 100/100 instead of spawning like locusts out of the starport. Shit now that I read you, I would actually like a giant terran broodlord that spits free medivacs two at a time. It's the nature of the buff, not the unit. You were already paying 100/100 for the Medivac. Terrans got to nerf the Blink timings over the Msc + Blink strat, but that MsC buff costed an additional 100/100 and 2 supply. Speedivac Deluxe Upgrade is free of charge. Blink + MsC can already be stopped by Window Mines since MsC lost detection. The speed ability is a buff. Why would we pay for it? Did you pay something for faster regenerating and accelerating mutas? Did you pay something for better void rays? Design-wise, it's exactly (and I mean, litterally exactly) the same as Corruption or Void-Ray charge, an ability with a cooldown, no upgrade to research. While I agree that Corruption sucks and medivac boost is super good, that's not the point. Everyone's cry about how the buff is "free" and whatnot is nonsense and, let's face it, idiotic. It's a balance change in a whole new game, it's not supposed to entitle Protoss and Zergs to a compensation of some sort, get over it. Edit: Note that I'm not saying anything on the potential OPness of said boost ability. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, and David Kim already said that they were looking at it anyway. It's a caster with a cooldown ability, like if Ghosts could EMP on cooldown and spam their energy on Snipe and Cloak. Voids and Mutas were underutilized and needed to be revamped. Medivacs were certainly not underutilized. Medivacs weren't but drop play was.
Well, yeah I made a mistake, also forgot some other things too, like Terran Starport and Factory units sharing armor upgrades and Medivac upgrade for more efficient healing. My point is still there though, that all of the races got pretty good stuff, that is yet to be explored, few months of Beta certainly wasn't enough, especially because the game wasn't stable(balance updates every few weeks), and that every kind of whining how something is overpowered right now is pretty much pointless.
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On the constructive end of things - widow mines/afterburners seem pretty good is the consensus here, yes?
I personally love Polt's Reaper into WM/Medivac opening in TvP - but maybe that's just because it won so many games in king-of-the-beta. The thing that really gets me about it is that it seems to have a very early expand and Medivacs way before more passive openings can get off the ground.
I don't have any links to these builds, but check out any game of Polt TvP in the recent history of day9tv.blip.tv . He opens Marine/Reaper - Expand - WM drop every single game (more or less).
The only games I saw him lose (think he lost one more, but I can't remember what it was) was due to VR allins - but this is primarily due to Factory positioning (it got sniped in one game), and WM positioning (Polt got WMs sniped because he placed them out front and away from his army).
On March 11 2013 21:47 Obamanation666 wrote:
I think they really need to take a good look at the burrow time of widow mines. You can see them coming and fire on them with two stalkers and the mine is still able to burrow. I think the mines shouldn't be so much of an offensive but defensive weapon. If they were to increase the burrow time from 2 to 4 seconds, I feel like Protoss would have a fair amount of time to prevent their entire mineral line from being blow to shreds. Not to mention the amount of time you can no longer mine until gaining vision.
The biggest problem here is that Stalkers (the unit of choice against this tactic) deal very, very low dps (less than a marine). A more "sensible" burrow time for widow mines in TvP is hard to come by because "deflectable when attacked by stalkers" and "deflectable when attacked by probes" are closer than most people would like to believe.
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I think someone touched on it, but I don't think anyone is considering the possible viability of getting up some phoenix before that point to shoot down medivacs. Coupled with an oracle you could shoot the marines as they drop out or just put a revelation on the medivac so you know where it runs away to, which could also just force it to go home. I think they may nerf it slightly, but afterburners are not going away.
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You are taking the worlds greatest players and then saying a unit is broken because they can use it to its maximum proficiency. That does not label a broken unit that labels a great player who knows how to use a unit. I don't see anyone complaining about how Protoss can use every single warp-in they have with a warp prism in someones main... Effectively warping a small army into their base for just one 200 mineral unit. So lets not talk about medivacs either. Medivacs need the speed boost because Terran in so many engagements in WoL would lose all of their medivacs because they were either too fast or too slow. The speed boost gives the Terran more control over the unit. Hey, and guess what? Having to recreate a 100/100 unit all the time isn't fun. If it was a Protoss unit you wouldnt be complaining at all. So honestly stop QQ (which is what this is) and try to find a way to stop it because Terran Players have had to put up with so much bull its not even funny.
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I just hope Protoss will have the ability to be aggressive in PvT without it being an all-in.
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The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon.
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On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. I don't play either T or P. But there is clear difference in things you mentioned. Stargate+oracle is big mineral and gass investement. Building a medivac and few mines isn't, because you would have made them anyway. They are part of your army and you don't have to damage with it. On the other side P invested a lot and the main thing he delayed his tech he needs to survive, which is completely different from stargate. All that means that if both players build turrets/cannons and harass doesn't happen, in case of oracles P is behind, in case of WM drop P is behind too.
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On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon.
The main issue is that even a cannon cannot kill a mine before it burrows. Sure, the mine will die, but it's still going to take 12 probes with it from the splash damage attack unless you run them away. That's very difficult to do in time as you have very little time to react and if you CAN pull it off you didn't need the cannon in the first place.
The problem is a 4.25 speed medivac simply cannot be intercepted at all with stalkers (imagine trying to prevent a phoenix from flying over your mineral line with just stalkers, it's impossible) as it can just go around obstacles. Once it reaches your workers, it also outruns the workers meaning it can drop the mines across them and they can't escape. You have to do a frantic 300 APM worker split sending them in 8 different directions in about 2 seconds so the mine fire doesn't splash them all to death.
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On March 12 2013 08:16 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. I don't play either T or P. But there is clear difference in things you mentioned. Stargate+oracle is big mineral and gass investement. Building a medivac and few mines isn't, because you would have made them anyway. They are part of your army and you don't have to damage with it. On the other side P invested a lot and the main thing he delayed his tech he needs to survive, which is completely different from stargate. All that means that if both players build turrets/cannons and harass doesn't happen, in case of oracles P is behind, in case of WM drop P is behind too.
Dont agree yet
Stargate is 150/150
Oracle is 150/150
is 300/300
Widowmine 150/50
Burrow 150/150
Medivac 100/100
is 400/300
The widowmine is gasintensive too which in general would seem to delay the terran aswell (armysize, slower 3rd or upgrades). It is for P and Z to find out u can punish the use of widowminesdrops in a timewindow earlier or later in the game. If gas goes into widowmines it isnt going into upgrades, armysize or a more economic build, try to punish that!
What i do find wierd is that 1 widowmine can kill 15 zerglings or something, thats just overkill. If masters dont find a good answer to early widowmines the could try to reduce the radius of the splashdamage. That could be an answer if masters dont find the answer..
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I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly.
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On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly.
Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly?
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On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon.
When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it.
On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly?
Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for.
Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP.
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One of the biggest problems I had with WMs was the game where 1 WM in each mineral line 1shotted two Oracles, while Stalkers couldn't handle WM drops at all.
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On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly?
I never said you have to defend it perfectly, I said that maybe we just have to give up trying to be able to stop the Terran from dropping and focus on defending it perfectly instead - saying that Protoss might need to focus on defending something perfectly is different than saying you must to defend this perfectly.
Photon overcharge is a good spell, but you're going to have buildings around your base, not just clustered around your nexus. Maybe that's an idea, put your buildings around your nexus instead so that you can overcharge defend, but I don't know if that's really a good idea. Your base has to be built a specific way or else you're going to take a lot of damage to a drop.
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On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP.
If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes?
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On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes?
No, the cannon needs to fire 5x to destroy the 90hp widow mine.
With Planetary nexus however they can 3 shot each widow mine.
As others have said it's better to focus on the medivac, losing it that early is huge.
It would take skill to kite the probes around planetary nexus to force the medivac to remain in range and be eventually destroyed.
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On March 13 2013 01:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes? No, the cannon needs to fire 5x to destroy the 90hp widow mine. With Planetary nexus however they can 3 shot each widow mine. As others have said it's better to focus on the medivac, losing it that early is huge. It would take skill to kite the probes around planetary nexus to force the medivac to remain in range and be eventually destroyed.
Widow mines do have an impressive amount of HP for their cost and low attack priority. If they had a standard attack priority or moved slower, it would be fine, but five cannons shots per mine is a bit much.
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On March 13 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 01:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes? No, the cannon needs to fire 5x to destroy the 90hp widow mine. With Planetary nexus however they can 3 shot each widow mine. As others have said it's better to focus on the medivac, losing it that early is huge. It would take skill to kite the probes around planetary nexus to force the medivac to remain in range and be eventually destroyed. Widow mines do have an impressive amount of HP for their cost and low attack priority. If they had a standard attack priority or moved slower, it would be fine, but five cannons shots per mine is a bit much.
So what if you have to run your probes away? The cannon is a detector remember so the cannon will kill the dang window mine no matter what... If you dont pull your workers like any type of harass of course its going to do damage.
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Also this is a poor thread to begin with because you say that MVP's build worked extremely well against two foreigners... well duh... MVP is the better player and should win so lets not blame it on a dang build. Even in the Korean vs Korean there was a 50% win rate so I wouldnt say that its OP by any stretch of the imagination.
If you guys think that MVP isnt far better then MaNa or Grubby then you are poorly mistaken.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes?
Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine.
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On March 13 2013 03:01 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 01:00 Crownlol wrote:On March 13 2013 00:24 Treehead wrote:On March 12 2013 07:51 govie wrote:
The question is if u have a problem with medivacs or the damage the widowmine does in early game? Medivacs doesnt kill probes, the mine does. I.e. As i see it, P have the oracle, it kills alot of workers too, therefore T builds some defenses. Why wont P build a cannon near minerallines after scouting possible minedrops? It's pretty cheap a cannon. When you say "after scouting possible mindrops" - do you mean to say that P scouted an expand and a walled-off main? Cuz realistically, that's all P is going to see before the medivac if the Terran is trying to hide it. On March 12 2013 14:43 GorGor wrote:On March 12 2013 10:58 Salv wrote:
I don't know if the afterburner on medivacs is too powerful or not, but I will say that right now I am unsure on how you're supposed to handle it. I played a PvT a few hours ago on SEA, and with my first observer I saw a medivac leaving from the bottom left of the Terran's base - he spawned bottom right; myself top left. So I warped in 3 stalkers along the bottom left edge of my base, and two stalkers along the top right of my base in case he swooped around the other side.
So the medivac comes, turns on afterburners and flies right by my three stalkers into my base to unload medivacs. Now, if I had put six stalkers there, I would have killed it (two volleys from 6 stalkers kills a medivac), but in WOL, seeing two or three stalkers would have definitely scared away the Terran, obviously that isn't going to work. So either you have to put enough stalkers (about six) in the exact spot to stop the drop, or you just have to give up trying to stop the drop and just focus on defending it perfectly. Why is it that when protoss players are talking about defending drops they say "you have to defend it PERFECTLY." It's pretty much ALL that terran can do at this point vs protoss as far as early/mid-game aggression. 2 rax builds have been figured out especially when scouted. Photon overcharge shuts down any early 3 rax pressure. MSC naturally shuts down banshees so hard I don't even need to elaborate as to why they may NEVER be used again in the matchup. 1/1/1 is a shell of what is was in WOL due to the msc/photon overcharge and the list goes on and on. Pretty much the only thing that protoss doesn't already have a 100% answer for is drops in mineral lines around 10+ minute timings. Considering the window for terran aggression is so small and that photon overcharge lasts for a full minute why can't protoss cast photon overcharge preemptively as a deterrent to stop drops before they even happen and then split up their forces accordingly? Polt does a 2-mine drop early and then 10-minute pressure later on with bio/WMs. The early WM drop requires very defensive play (i.e. 2-3 units sitting in your main mineral line, warp-ins do not appear sufficient), and the followup seems hard to keep on an even economic footing for. Personally, I think elminating the pre-10 minute timings via WM/Photon Overcharge is a vast improvement to TvP. If you drop a WM in a mineral line that has a cannon in it, will the cannon kill the mine before it goes off on the probes? Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine.
The damage WM's deal vs the damage they can tank seems to be a little odd. WMs oneshot Oracles, but can tank 5 cannon shots?
I'm not complaining since I haven't even played yet, just was shocked during the IEM games when Oracle harass was completely negated by one (microless)WM per mineral line, while being harassed by WMs.
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On March 13 2013 03:01 Targe wrote:
Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine.
It's not as easy as "pull probes." You have almost no reaction time. It takes the probes two seconds to get out of the mine attack range, so you have only one second to react or you're going to lose half of them. Also, the medivac can outrun your probes and after dropping one mine, can run ahead of your fleeing workers, cut them off, and drop another mine in their path. Once you've comitted to running misclicking even one dodge slightly loses the game instantly as your bunched up running probe ball all explodes to splash damage. Or alternatively you can do the 300 APM probe split and try to run them in 8 different directions to minimize splash kills.
Blue flame hellions got nerfed for exactly this garbage, (forcing people to do 300 APM multiple-direction probe splits to not lose the game instantly) it's really only a matter of time before the nerf this. It's skill-less to execute and requires GM+ micro to not just immediately lose to.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 13 2013 04:39 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 03:01 Targe wrote:
Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine. It's not as easy as "pull probes." You have almost no reaction time. It takes the probes two seconds to get out of the mine attack range, so you have only one second to react or you're going to lose half of them. Also, the medivac can outrun your probes and after dropping one mine, can run ahead of your fleeing workers, cut them off, and drop another mine in their path. Once you've comitted to running misclicking even one dodge slightly loses the game instantly as your bunched up running probe ball all explodes to splash damage. Or alternatively you can do the 300 APM probe split and try to run them in 8 different directions to minimize splash kills. Blue flame hellions got nerfed for exactly this garbage, (forcing people to do 300 APM multiple-direction probe splits to not lose the game instantly) it's really only a matter of time before the nerf this. It's skill-less to execute and requires GM+ micro to not just immediately lose to.
*Check minimap*
*See drop*
*Pull probes*
That's the extent of it, I'm sure you're exaggerating their effectiveness. I know it requires you to be constantly looking at the minimap however the game is not totally balanced at levels of the game lower than the top so different strategies are able to work far more effectively at different levels of gameplay.
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On March 13 2013 05:55 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 04:39 Xequecal wrote:On March 13 2013 03:01 Targe wrote:
Nope but all you need to do is pull probes then wait for the cannon to kill the widow mine. It's not as easy as "pull probes." You have almost no reaction time. It takes the probes two seconds to get out of the mine attack range, so you have only one second to react or you're going to lose half of them. Also, the medivac can outrun your probes and after dropping one mine, can run ahead of your fleeing workers, cut them off, and drop another mine in their path. Once you've comitted to running misclicking even one dodge slightly loses the game instantly as your bunched up running probe ball all explodes to splash damage. Or alternatively you can do the 300 APM probe split and try to run them in 8 different directions to minimize splash kills. Blue flame hellions got nerfed for exactly this garbage, (forcing people to do 300 APM multiple-direction probe splits to not lose the game instantly) it's really only a matter of time before the nerf this. It's skill-less to execute and requires GM+ micro to not just immediately lose to. *Check minimap* *See drop* *Pull probes* That's the extent of it, I'm sure you're exaggerating their effectiveness. I know it requires you to be constantly looking at the minimap however the game is not totally balanced at levels of the game lower than the top so different strategies are able to work far more effectively at different levels of gameplay.
You beat me to it.
Needs more scouting. XvP have to watch out for Oracle rush, putting up early spore crawler or bunker/turret.
So yes, at everyone needs to learn2play.
Edit: Before I forget, "Offense is the best defense"
Popping out two fast oracles will force the T to make Vikings first instead of medivac.
Pair up the oracles with a h. Phoniex to pre clear any possible mines in the mineral line.
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Edit: wrong mood while posting 
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I am still thinking of how to defend against this.
I would either go Phoenix or go heavier sentry to get some scouting from hallucination, not figured out yet.
Going phoenix I wouldn't commit to much into it, to make a tech switch to either colossus or high templar.
When going hallucination I think a more gateway heavier style would fit more, since he would probably (when misscouting) go heavier marine with 1 or 2 vikings, which is easilier countered by high templar.
But like I said. Still trying to figure out my new style for HotS.
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It may be optimal to all in with robo or stargate tech before medevacs are ready.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
I hope that's not it, fed up relying on timings for Wings PvZ.
Any good Protoss streamers showing anything yet in terms of PvT?
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I think they will nerf-increase the afterburners cooldown from 20seconds to 30seconds, to force people to use them more as a get away button instead of a get in and fly over all defenses ability.
Due to the longer cooldown you will have to decide if you want to use the afterburners to get in or have it ready to get out.
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On March 14 2013 07:35 Afterstar wrote:
I think they will nerf-increase the afterburners cooldown from 20seconds to 30seconds, to force people to use them more as a get away button instead of a get in and fly over all defenses ability.
Due to the longer cooldown you will have to decide if you want to use the afterburners to get in or have it ready to get out.
My guess is that it will require and ultimately receive a much more substantial nerf. Medevacs were already one of the most powerful units in WoL. The 10 minute medevac timing defined TvP. Now medevacs are faster than mutas. I don't know how they can balance that. It would be like trying to balance double speed collasi. :p
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This drop is so hard to deal with TT
Even going 1g robo expand, it can hit about 7:30 (about when their CC finishes) with a couple mines and marines in a medivac which means you only have a couple gateway units (hopefully you didn't lose them in a poke) a MSC and 1-2 observers. Some guy I just played was pretty clever and dropped one in my main mineral line (I pulled them all to the nat in time) Then boosted and dropped the second on the ramp when I was busy dealing with the mine + couple of marines in my main. Then he boosted the mine + marines down to the nat and I instinctively pulled my probes back to my main (I saw him retreat the mine there) and BOOM at my ramp, 12 kill mine GG 
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If they let mothership core have detect back, or reduced it's plus damage to shields it could fix anything. I dunno why blizzard just lets terran be so absurdly strong when they launch a starcraft game.
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On March 14 2013 01:15 Gianttt wrote:
I am still thinking of how to defend against this.
I would either go Phoenix or go heavier sentry to get some scouting from hallucination, not figured out yet.
Going phoenix I wouldn't commit to much into it, to make a tech switch to either colossus or high templar.
When going hallucination I think a more gateway heavier style would fit more, since he would probably (when misscouting) go heavier marine with 1 or 2 vikings, which is easilier countered by high templar.
But like I said. Still trying to figure out my new style for HotS.
I think you are onto something.
Early phoniex on a large map can shut this down hard. If they can interrupt the burrowing process or even lift them off when burrowed. Can anyone check?
Taking out the medivac early does huge economic damage as well as you wasted the Terran's huge early investment into tech and forces the Terran to build more medivacs where he could have spent the min and gas on two more marines/reactors/etc.
Phoniex can have a huge pay off if they are patrolling the skies.
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On March 14 2013 21:19 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 01:15 Gianttt wrote:
I am still thinking of how to defend against this.
I would either go Phoenix or go heavier sentry to get some scouting from hallucination, not figured out yet.
Going phoenix I wouldn't commit to much into it, to make a tech switch to either colossus or high templar.
When going hallucination I think a more gateway heavier style would fit more, since he would probably (when misscouting) go heavier marine with 1 or 2 vikings, which is easilier countered by high templar.
But like I said. Still trying to figure out my new style for HotS.
I think you are onto something. Early phoniex on a large map can shut this down hard. If they can interrupt the burrowing process or even lift them off when burrowed. Can anyone check? Taking out the medivac early does huge economic damage as well as you wasted the Terran's huge early investment into tech and forces the Terran to build more medivacs where he could have spent the min and gas on two more marines/reactors/etc. Phoniex can have a huge pay off if they are patrolling the skies.
As long as you're active with them and have decent multitasking, MC style phoenix play is one of the best ways to open in PvT now. It shuts down harass very effectively now combined with the mothership core and everyone I've seen use it on ladder has no trouble affording a robo for an obs or two as you don't require as many physical units anymore due to photon overcharge. This allows you to safely transition into either colossi or ht tech, or straight up immortal archon if he's going rine tank. I want to note as well that ht path following phoenix received a great boost in the mothership core's time warp ability. Slows on bio when he hits a 1-1 or 2-2 timing is devastatingly effective combined with chargelots and some archon or storm support. And you can guarantee his medivacs are either low or dead as long as you:
KEEP YOUR PHOENIX ALIVE!
Yeah it's hard sometimes against widow mines but just be careful harassing his base after you scout him having factory tech. Another great thing about phoenix tech now is that so many players use hallu for scouting phoenix, as long as you don't attack anything with your first phoenix scout, he'll likely discount it to a sentry hallu. Judging how the strategy forum usually works though this post will get overlooked so people can keep whining, it's why I rarely post in there or any strategy discussion thread.
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EPT
