|
On February 10 2013 00:24 Uhh Negative wrote:
Pneumatized upgrade at hatch is pretty huge, imo. Allows really easy scouting early game at the cost of delaying lair/speed by 50 gas. Not bad.
How do you figure it's pretty huge, have you tried to come up with a good build order for it?
Early burrow was plagued by being hard to fit in to many builds before you would be able to get it otherwise because your sacrificing either your early queens (and 4 queens became ideal for a reason) or an early lair.
For any build that's not sacrificing defenses or economy, you only get it approximately 80 seconds earlier than before. No big deal. (Even David Kim said so himself when he proposed the change).
Also, in most cases your better off sacrificing a Queen for an early lair rather than the speed, and just getting an overseer and dropping a changeling. That way your not vulnerable to widows/etc and also getting tech.
|
On February 10 2013 00:55 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 10 2013 00:24 Cloak wrote:
Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution. I think widow mines should be renamed because people such as yourself keeps comparing them to spider mines. For good or for bad, planetaries have taken over the role of Spidermines. Widow mines are diet siege tanks (in essence) Now I have many qualms against widow mines. -I don't like Terran having such a front loaded cloaked combat unit--sounds protoss ish to me. -I don't like the flavor confusion of +35 to shields -I don't like that its called a mine -I don't like that it overlaps with the tank so much especially believing that simply cutting tank supply down to 2 and making tank splash 100% around the affected area will be much more interesting than what widow mine is currently doing. -I don't like that they're stepping on toss toes flavor wise (Protoss have robots while Terran need drivers) the widow mine is an unmanned robot. That's just silly. The list can go on, and along with the complaints I have many superior suggestions. But... Even still. I wouldn't compare widow mine to the Spidermines just because their name both has mine in it. It's much more similar to the shredder than the Spidermines. You can call them fluorescent giraffes for all I care. They resemble Spider Mines very strongly. Burrowed units that activate within proximity with an explosion. So long as those are the defining features, my mammalian brain is going to associate them.
?? They're an underground missile launcher. Their closer to a StA Missile rack turned sideways to hit tanks. They don't work at all the same.
|
On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ?
It looks like they in the fine-tuning phase right now. I think this is good because the real issues will become visible only after some esports tournament. We don't know if Blizzard then continues with small patches or if we see some bigger changes.
|
On February 10 2013 01:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:55 Cloak wrote:On February 10 2013 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 10 2013 00:24 Cloak wrote:
Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution. I think widow mines should be renamed because people such as yourself keeps comparing them to spider mines. For good or for bad, planetaries have taken over the role of Spidermines. Widow mines are diet siege tanks (in essence) Now I have many qualms against widow mines. -I don't like Terran having such a front loaded cloaked combat unit--sounds protoss ish to me. -I don't like the flavor confusion of +35 to shields -I don't like that its called a mine -I don't like that it overlaps with the tank so much especially believing that simply cutting tank supply down to 2 and making tank splash 100% around the affected area will be much more interesting than what widow mine is currently doing. -I don't like that they're stepping on toss toes flavor wise (Protoss have robots while Terran need drivers) the widow mine is an unmanned robot. That's just silly. The list can go on, and along with the complaints I have many superior suggestions. But... Even still. I wouldn't compare widow mine to the Spidermines just because their name both has mine in it. It's much more similar to the shredder than the Spidermines. You can call them fluorescent giraffes for all I care. They resemble Spider Mines very strongly. Burrowed units that activate within proximity with an explosion. So long as those are the defining features, my mammalian brain is going to associate them. ?? They're an underground missile launcher. Their closer to a StA Missile rack turned sideways to hit tanks. They don't work at all the same.
My brother is in the army and is in engineering and does demolitions. If he could have a reusable, target-able landmine that could also deploy itself, he would take it in a second. If they could recall the mine back to home, like calling a dog, he would take that too. Since starcraft is in the future, I will accept they have made mines better than ever. Fucking smart, reusable and able to take care of themselves. Like Rumbas, but they make a mess, rather than clean it up.
The part that makes it a mine if that part where it buries itself under the ground and waits for its prey. How it messes up its prey is up to the mine.
Also, Protoss would get the "fluorescent giraffes" unit, getting one step closer to the disco party.
|
On February 10 2013 01:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:55 Cloak wrote:On February 10 2013 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 10 2013 00:24 Cloak wrote:
Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution. I think widow mines should be renamed because people such as yourself keeps comparing them to spider mines. For good or for bad, planetaries have taken over the role of Spidermines. Widow mines are diet siege tanks (in essence) Now I have many qualms against widow mines. -I don't like Terran having such a front loaded cloaked combat unit--sounds protoss ish to me. -I don't like the flavor confusion of +35 to shields -I don't like that its called a mine -I don't like that it overlaps with the tank so much especially believing that simply cutting tank supply down to 2 and making tank splash 100% around the affected area will be much more interesting than what widow mine is currently doing. -I don't like that they're stepping on toss toes flavor wise (Protoss have robots while Terran need drivers) the widow mine is an unmanned robot. That's just silly. The list can go on, and along with the complaints I have many superior suggestions. But... Even still. I wouldn't compare widow mine to the Spidermines just because their name both has mine in it. It's much more similar to the shredder than the Spidermines. You can call them fluorescent giraffes for all I care. They resemble Spider Mines very strongly. Burrowed units that activate within proximity with an explosion. So long as those are the defining features, my mammalian brain is going to associate them. ?? They're an underground missile launcher. Their closer to a StA Missile rack turned sideways to hit tanks. They don't work at all the same.
Too much semantic argument for my liking, but I wouldn't really call the Widow Mine being an evolution of the Spider Mine as contentious, even outside of name, it's just a mine that refreshes itself, which in real life is closest to a rocket launcher, but in video game logic, mines can refresh themselves. I would say the Shredder is categorically different just by the nature of its attack being pure aoe, so it "shreds," not "blasts." Be that as it may, your points about too much frontload and Tank overlap are the most poignant. Everything Mech overlaps, and Blizzard is seeking balance choices over design choices, especially now that HotS is imminent.
|
On February 10 2013 00:52 Basique wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ? Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen. Mutas changed ? And even then, that's not a lot of changes. But I'm not like most of the people on team liquid, I don't care about balance at all, I just want new stuff. For me, watching streams, it still seems too much like wol.
Mutas had their speed massively buffed and got passive regen. Their micro potential is much higher now than it is in WoL because regen means the benefits of saving individuals mutas are so much higher.
Ravens went from only really being for detection and army support with pdd, to being an extremely effective aoe damage caster/space controller who helps enormously against deathballs.
Void Rays had their entire core attack mechanic completely revamped, making them a much more capable core unit. In exchange, they had their supply cost raised to make them somewhat less effective when massed.
Medivacs got their speed boost which makes Terran harass much harder to stop, since the anti-air required to take out a Medivac before it can drop units and get away are now much higher.
Thors lost their useless ability and liability energy bars, and gained some additional utility against armored flying units.
Siege Tanks now no longer require an upgrade which means they come out earlier and with less investment required from Terran.
Hydra speed upgrade has boosted their overall utility, particularly in the midgame (and mid lategame, once you mix in Vipers).
Phoenixes have much higher range and are even better air superiority units now.
Terran air and vehicle armor upgrades were merged to make tech switching easier.
Overlord speed and burrow are now hatch tech, opening up additional early game scouting, defense and all-in options for Zerg.
Carriers had their micro capabilities improved to more closely resemble BW, Motherships had their recall reworked and traded vortex for timewarp.
Hellions weren't changed directly, but the introduction of the Hellbat transformation has radically expanded Hellion utility, both for harass, defense, and as part of a larger composition.
Ultralisks got a huge damage buff against light ground.
Infestors were seriously nerfed, with ITs losing their upgrade potential, their eggs losing health, and Fungal turned into a projectile.
DTs were made much cheaper to get.
Reapers lost most of their combat utility and were turned into pure scouts, albeit with better health and some regen to make them better at moving around an enemy base to get info without dying.
...How is that not a lot of changes? Short of a complete ground up redesign, the game has changed a great deal from WoL, even beyond the new units. Like half the units from WoL have been altered in some way, and in many cases those alterations have been quite substantial. Harass options for all 3 races have been tremendously improved, but so have scouting options and anti-air. Factory units are more flexible, and the new Raven has substantially improved Terran lategame. Zerg is less reliant on Infestor/Broodlord with the new Ultras and addition of Vipers, and in exchange Infestors were nerfed and numerous new counters to BLs were added. Numerous new anti-colossi units and options were added, at the same time as stargate was hugely buffed, pushing Protoss away from relying exclusively on robo+gateway and more towards air-heavy comps.
I dunno what game people are watching that they don't think it's changed from WoL. I see the new units being used all the time, and even the old ones are being used in new ways and in new builds.
|
On February 10 2013 01:57 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:52 Basique wrote:On February 10 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ? Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen. Mutas changed ? And even then, that's not a lot of changes. But I'm not like most of the people on team liquid, I don't care about balance at all, I just want new stuff. For me, watching streams, it still seems too much like wol. Mutas had their speed massively buffed and got passive regen.
I wouldn't exactly use the word 'massively' where the speed increase is only 6.5%, it's really not that much. Just saying 
|
On February 10 2013 02:28 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 01:57 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 10 2013 00:52 Basique wrote:On February 10 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ? Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen. Mutas changed ? And even then, that's not a lot of changes. But I'm not like most of the people on team liquid, I don't care about balance at all, I just want new stuff. For me, watching streams, it still seems too much like wol. Mutas had their speed massively buffed and got passive regen. I wouldn't exactly use the word 'massively' where the speed increase is only 6.5%, it's really not that much. Just saying
6.5% of really fast = super fast. Mutas were never slow.
|
I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions?
|
On February 10 2013 05:32 Baum wrote:
I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions?
Which basically means if you don't scout it, you are majorly screwed. And Z tech switches are damn hard to scout 
|
On February 10 2013 05:32 Baum wrote:
I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions?
One thing that I personally believe is underutilized is checkering buildings where you want to defend against Zerg attacks when the Zerg has ultras out. Ultras are just too strong when they can attack now, so you need to take advantage of chokes and the ultralisk pathing issues to win battles against them.
|
On February 10 2013 05:53 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 05:32 Baum wrote:
I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions? One thing that I personally believe is underutilized is checkering buildings where you want to defend against Zerg attacks when the Zerg has ultras out. Ultras are just too strong when they can attack now, so you need to take advantage of chokes and the ultralisk pathing issues to win battles against them.
Well if you are turteling behind buildings you are not attacking and will die to broodlords later. If you say that a bio tank army can't fight ultras anymore then you might as well say that bio tank isn't viable anymore.
|
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed
|
... Blizzard is really... not ... I dont even..
|
On February 08 2013 10:06 Lunesta wrote:
I imagine most are curious as to why the hellbat wasn't even mentioned. Not a great patch imo. Hopefully other issues will be addressed before the game comes out.
I would have to agree with this. Hellbats are far to strong especially in the company of tanks and thors. It's almost impossible to break this as a zerg. Carrier's need to become nerfed imo I feel they make skytoss way to strong. Not feeling this patch. The carpace upgrade isn't going to help me much early on...
|
On February 10 2013 08:06 DoNuTs84 wrote:
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed
You should really think about those first. Did you just finish the campain or something? First off, TechReactors are a bad idea. Double Marauders, Thors, or Battle Cruisers? Or other units that require a Tech Lab? Thats a big mistake.
And Auto-Refineries? lol So that Terran can just make a thousand Orbital Commands and get minerals with mules only and have a 200 supply army? Yeah right.
Protoss already have a good splash unit, the Archon. And tempest own hive tech zerg units anyways.
Infestor completely removed? So that they can't win any games at all? All pretty drastic changes for someone wanting Tech Reactors. Let me guess. You're Terran.
|
On February 10 2013 09:48 KCCO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 08:06 DoNuTs84 wrote:
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed You should really think about those first. Did you just finish the campain or something? First off, TechReactors are a bad idea. Double Marauders, Thors, or Battle Cruisers? Or other units that require a Tech Lab? Thats a big mistake. And Auto-Refineries? lol So that Terran can just make a thousand Orbital Commands and get minerals with mules only and have a 200 supply army? Yeah right. Protoss already have a good splash unit, the Archon. And tempest own hive tech zerg units anyways. Infestor completely removed? So that they can't win any games at all? All pretty drastic changes for someone wanting Tech Reactors. Let me guess. You're Terran.
Let me guess, you've never come across sarcasm before?
|
On February 10 2013 10:18 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 09:48 KCCO wrote:On February 10 2013 08:06 DoNuTs84 wrote:
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed You should really think about those first. Did you just finish the campain or something? First off, TechReactors are a bad idea. Double Marauders, Thors, or Battle Cruisers? Or other units that require a Tech Lab? Thats a big mistake. And Auto-Refineries? lol So that Terran can just make a thousand Orbital Commands and get minerals with mules only and have a 200 supply army? Yeah right. Protoss already have a good splash unit, the Archon. And tempest own hive tech zerg units anyways. Infestor completely removed? So that they can't win any games at all? All pretty drastic changes for someone wanting Tech Reactors. Let me guess. You're Terran. Let me guess, you've never come across sarcasm before?
he is new to it. be nice to him.
|
On February 10 2013 09:29 GGY0UMAKE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Lunesta wrote:
I imagine most are curious as to why the hellbat wasn't even mentioned. Not a great patch imo. Hopefully other issues will be addressed before the game comes out. I would have to agree with this. Hellbats are far to strong especially in the company of tanks and thors. It's almost impossible to break this as a zerg. Carrier's need to become nerfed imo I feel they make skytoss way to strong. Not feeling this patch. The carpace upgrade isn't going to help me much early on...
raoch hydra viper actually destroys mech pretty bad if you dark swarm correctly and spread your units.
zerg can build like 5 evos and get infinite energy on vipers
|
On February 10 2013 10:18 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 09:48 KCCO wrote:On February 10 2013 08:06 DoNuTs84 wrote:
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed You should really think about those first. Did you just finish the campain or something? First off, TechReactors are a bad idea. Double Marauders, Thors, or Battle Cruisers? Or other units that require a Tech Lab? Thats a big mistake. And Auto-Refineries? lol So that Terran can just make a thousand Orbital Commands and get minerals with mules only and have a 200 supply army? Yeah right. Protoss already have a good splash unit, the Archon. And tempest own hive tech zerg units anyways. Infestor completely removed? So that they can't win any games at all? All pretty drastic changes for someone wanting Tech Reactors. Let me guess. You're Terran. Let me guess, you've never come across sarcasm before?
being sarcastic on the internet is just plain stupid
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
