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Hi everyone,
We will shortly be bringing the beta down this evening to make the balance changes listed below. Thanks again for all the great feedback you've provided while testing Heart of the Swarm. We hope to see you testing these changes and sharing your input soon!
Protoss
Oracle
-The duration for Envision has been increased from 30 to 60 seconds.
Terran
Widow Mine
-The primary target damage for Sentinel Missiles has been increased from 125 to 125 +35 vs. Shields.
Zerg
Hatchery
-The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now only requires a Hatchery.
Infestor
-The projectile speed for Fungal Growth has been reduced from 15 to 12.
Spore Crawler
-The weapon damage for Acid Spew has been increased from 15 to 15 + 15 vs. Biological.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7855695792
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I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.
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The Spore buff is to combat mass mutas in ZvZ.. But then in the same update they nerf fungle vs muta so you miss more. Interesting.
Do Widow Mines 1 shot stalkers/zealots again now?
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
Complete WoL to HotS Changes (So Far)
+ Show Spoiler [HotS Balance Changes] +PROTOSS- Carrier
- Interceptors can now change targets when they are in leash range.
- Dark Shrine
- The cost is now 150/150, down from 100/250.
- Mothership
- Recall teleports the Mothership and all nearby units owned by the player to the targeted Nexus.
- The Vortex ability has been removed from the game.
- New Ability: Time Warp.
- Creates a temporal field that slows all ground units’ movement speed within a 3.5 radius by 50%.
- This ability costs 75 energy to cast
- This ability can be cast from 9 range.
- http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mothership_Core
- http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Oracle
- Phoenix
- Range increased from 4 to 5. Upgrade still grants +2 range.
- Pylon
- Warp-in on ramps downhill is now allowed. Warp-in to the high ground is not possible anymore.
- Sentry
- Hallucination no longer requires research.
- Stalker
- Blink research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds.
- http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Tempest_(unit)
- Void Ray
- Prismatic Beam
- No longer charges up.
- Weapon period decreased from 0.6 to 0.5.
- No longer does passive +massive damage.
- New Ability: Prismatic Alignment
- Increases damage to armored units by 6 for 20 seconds, with a 1 minute cooldown. This does not scale with upgrades.
- Activating the ability now causes a timer to display over the Void Ray for the duration of the effect.
- Supply cost increased from 3 to 4.
TERRAN- Armory
- The Armory now only has one armor upgrade for both air and ground upgrades for both Factory and Starport units.
- Battlecruiser
- Yamato Cannon energy cost decreased from 125 to 100.
- http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Hellbat
- Medivac
- New ability: Ignite Afterburners
- Speed boost that increases movement speed and acceleration to 4.25 for 8 seconds. 20 second cooldown.
- Raven
- Seeker Missile has been redesigned:
- Energy cost decreased from 125 to 75.
- Can now fire from 10 range.
- Missile comes out and stays immobile in front of the Raven for 5 seconds while charging up, then rapidly moves and explodes at the target for 100 damage plus splash damage.
- Targeted unit lights up red when targeted. If the unit moves 13 range out of where the Seeker Missile is, the Missile fizzles.
- Reaper
- New passive ability: Combat Drugs
- Health regenerates 2hp/s if not attacked during the last 10 seconds (same as Protoss shields)
- Health increased from 50 to 60.
- Movement speed increased from 2.95 to 3.75.
- No longer requires a Tech Lab Addon.
- No longer have their anti-building grenades.
- P-45 Gauss Pistol weapon damage decreased from 4 +5 vs. Light to 4.
- Siege Tank
- Siege Tanks no longer require an upgrade in order to enter Siege Mode.
- Thor
- 250mm Strike Cannons has been removed, along with its associated energy bar.
- The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds.
- When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.
- Thor radius, inner radius, and separation radius increased from 0.8215 to 1.
 Widow Mine
ZERG- Creep Tumor
- No longer spawn instantly, but instead have a three second spawning animation.
- May now be placed on ramps.
- Hatchery
- The Evolve Burrow upgrade requirement has been moved to the Hatchery.
- The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now only requires a Hatchery.
- Hydralisk
- New Upgrade: Muscular Augments
- Increases hydralisk off-creep speed from 2.25 to 2.81. Speed on creep unchanged (3.37)
- Infestor
- Fungal Growth:
- Is now a projectile.
- Speed of the projectile is 12.
- Range up to 10.
- Damage decreased from 30 +10 vs. Armored to 30.
- Mutalisk
- Speed increased from 3.75 to 4. Acceleration stays at 3.5.
- New passive ability: Tissue Regeneration
- Mutalisk health regeneration rate increased from .2734 to 1
- Spine Crawler
- This unit now completely blocks pathing when placed next to other structures, including other Spine Crawlers.
- Zerglings and other small units can no longer squeeze in between Spine Crawlers.
- The scale of this unit has been increased from 0.85 to 0.95.
- Spore Crawler
- This unit no longer requires an Evolution Chamber.
- The weapon damage for Acid Spew has been increased from 15 to 15 + 15 vs. Biological.
- http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Swarm_Host
- Ultralisk
- Damage changed from 15+20 armored to 35 flat damage.
- Viper
+ Show Spoiler [HotS Features] +GENERAL- New Menu Screens
- Revamped overall UI layout, art, and graphic style.
- More detailed information on these changes can be found here.
- Clans Support Added
- Clan tags are now pre-pended to character names of all players who join a clan.
- More detailed information on Clan Support can be found here.
- Leveling System
- Players now earn XP when playing Ranked and Unranked matchmaking games or when playing Custom Games on Blizzard melee maps.
- As players earn XP they will progress in level, with a maximum level of 20 for each race.
- Decals and portraits are rewarded through the leveling system.
- More detailed information on the leveling system can be found here.
- Physics effects on the battlefield have been greatly enhanced.
- Death animations have been updated for many units.
- Ragdoll physics now cause units to get blasted away from explosions more naturally.
- After being killed, units can now fall off cliff edges, into caverns, etc.
- Physics effects have been polished on many existing units.
- Performance has been improved.
- Physics-triggered sounds have been added.
- Improved Score Screen and Added Stats
- Experience Tab: Added a Score Screen tab that tracks XP gains and leveling progress.
- Performance Tab: Now tracks gameplay performance stats such as Average Float and Combat Efficiency, and displays lifetime averages and values for the current match.
- Added a “Play Again” button to the post-game Score Screen.
- Race Report: Added a profile section that tracks performance by race for each matchup.
- Map Report: Added a profile section that tracks performance on each ladder map.
- Groups
- Players who wish to associate casually and in larger numbers than Clans can now create and join Groups, with a designated chat channel, a News tab where stories can be posted, an Info tab where officers can post a brief description of the Group, and a Members roster. For more information on Groups, check out our first look at the feature.
- Unranked Play
- On the Multiplayer screen, players can now select Unranked Play to engage in matchmaking with the ranking system suspended.
- Players Near Me
- Recognizes other StarCraft II games running on the player’s network, making it easier to chat, play, and make friends with nearby players.
- AI Communication
- The StarCraft II Arcade is now available in the Heart of the Swarm Beta.
- Leveling
- The number of levels for each race has been increased from 20 to 30, for a total of 90 attainable levels per character.
- The overall XP required to reach max-level has been increased.
- All XP previously earned has been reset to zero. Thanks for your continuing feedback, and please keep it coming!
- Exciting new replay features have been added to Heart of the Swarm.
- Watch With Others - This feature allows you to watch replays in sync with other players on Battle.net
- Take Command - This feature allows you or your group to take control of selected player armies while watching a replay.
- Recover Game - This feature allows you to recover a prematurely ended game from a replay.
- For more details about these new features, please see our overview on the StarCraft II Community Site.
- Vs. AI Mode has been enabled. Players can now challenge an AI opponent that scales in difficulty.
- Training Mode has been enabled. In Training Mode, you’ll work your way up from basic StarCraft gameplay skills to greater challenges designed to hone your skills.
USER INTERFACE- Custom Games
- Many drop-down filters are now consolidated into side navigation.
- Merged Join Game and Create Game screens into a single page.
- Moved all party displays and controls into the Party Chat window.
- Updated the Profile Summary screen to include progress UI for the new leveling system.
- Updated loading screens with new background images, more clearly displayed player names, and the overhead map.
- New Copy Link buttons have been added, which automatically copy certain pages in-game to the clipboard, allowing players to share them with others via clickable links in chat or on the web. When clicked, these links will navigate to the in-game page.
- In-Game UI Polish
- Moved the Main Menu and Help buttons above the command card.
- Achievements and Message Log menus are now accessible via the Main Menu.
- Added a Select Army Units button next to the Idle Worker button.
- Unit Status bar settings have been added to the Gameplay Options screen.
- Decal art has been updated to appear brighter and more visible.
- New Victory/Loss sequences now play at the end of a game.
- Show Unit Status Bars – Damaged: Show only status bars for units that are below max health or energy.
- Team Colored Status Bars: Status bar border frames match each player’s team color.
- Maps that appear in the Custom Games section now include all of the same Game Info pages as the maps available in the Arcade (Overview, How to Play, Patch Notes, Reviews).
- New options added to aid newer players in the Options > Controls menu
- Team Colored Life Bar
- Always Show Worker Status
- Simple Command Card
- Show Current Order Indicator
- Select All Larvae
- Display Experience Points
- Enable Enemy Unit Selection
- The Help section has been revised and updated.
OBSERVER MODE- Leader Panel
- Added Structure tab and Upgrades tab.
- Observers can now click Leader Panel icons to center the game camera on a unit or structure.
- Clicking multiple times cycles through units of the same type.
- Minimap
- Attacked units now flash white for the observer.
- Nuclear Launch and Nydus Canals now create pings on the minimap for observers.
- Versus Mode Side Toggle
- Added a hotkey (Control-X) that flips the side on which players appear in various parts of the UI when watching a 1v1 Versus Mode game.
- By default, the player with the leftmost start location will appear on the left in the user interface.
EDITOR
All of the above are changes have already been implemented. Global Play, new Dances, new Skins, and a customizable observer UI are expected, but haven't been properly implemented yet.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.
Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it.
The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray.
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So how do you expect the Pneumatized Carapace change to play out? Get that and not speedlings/burrow untill you know what the other guy is doing? Get speedling and Pneumatized Carapace and wait on burrow?
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Oracle still leads to build order wins, TvP is quite broken at this point. Expecting a lot of Terran players to switch race upon release.
Oh, and wait a minute, what? More early game buffs for Zerg? ....
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I imagine most are curious as to why the hellbat wasn't even mentioned. Not a great patch imo. Hopefully other issues will be addressed before the game comes out.
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On February 08 2013 10:00 MidgetHumper wrote:
The Spore buff is to combat mass mutas in ZvZ.. But then in the same update they nerf fungle vs muta so you miss more. Interesting.
Do Widow Mines 1 shot stalkers/zealots again now?
They specifically said that they felt infestors were still too good but they were a linchpin in muta-vs-non-muta play in zvz. The spore and fungal changes together address that issue.
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On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray.
Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes.
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The fact that Blizzard is now resorting to giving bonus damage vs very, very specific unit types seems like a step in the wrong direction for how they should approach balance. It seems a little too conservative in one sense (making mild damage buffs vs. specific targets rather than reworking the units as a whole), but also a bit too complicated in another sense. I'd really hate to see us 5 patches down the line with every unit having a bunch of extremely specific +damage modifiers.
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On February 08 2013 10:05 obsid wrote:
So how do you expect the Pneumatized Carapace change to play out? Get that and not speedlings/burrow untill you know what the other guy is doing? Get speedling and Pneumatized Carapace and wait on burrow?
If you are getting ov speed and the other guy is going for some macro build, you will fall waaay behind.
You're just going to have to wait on ov speed and burrow just like before.
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They're not watching the MLG games, I guess.
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On February 08 2013 10:05 obsid wrote:
So how do you expect the Pneumatized Carapace change to play out? Get that and not speedlings/burrow untill you know what the other guy is doing? Get speedling and Pneumatized Carapace and wait on burrow?
It will have little-to-no impact immediately as generally zergs can scout to their satisification in the early game. People will need to devise compelling reasons outside of scouting to get overlord speed early, likely revolving around lair timings to deny thirds with creep for extended periods of time or drop play.
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I think this is an ok patch. Even if things like the Spore buff aren't enough to deal with Mutas, at least they won't mess up other matchups.
I don't know if the Widow Mine buff will make much of a difference really. I think it could definitely help to hold off all ins better now though. You cant send in a unit to take a hit then pull it back for shield regen. Also I think Oracles will get 1 shot now which is nice too. But then again, Oracles also have the ability to detect them for a longer period of time. So zomg who knows?
I'm not sure about the Infestor nerf. I feel like the times that Fungal is most necessary is against air or Medivac drops. Against air it will still be fine I'm guessing, but it will be even harder to hit those pesky drop ships. (w00t, I'm Terran!)
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:00 MidgetHumper wrote:
The Spore buff is to combat mass mutas in ZvZ.. But then in the same update they nerf fungle vs muta so you miss more. Interesting.
Do Widow Mines 1 shot stalkers/zealots again now? They specifically said that they felt infestors were still too good but they were a linchpin in muta-vs-non-muta play in zvz. The spore and fungal changes together address that issue.
Yeah, Soulkey really abused those Infestors today against Last.
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T.O.P
469 Posts
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Hope for a future tank buff, maybe? First time anything has had +damage to shields, right?
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Does anyone know how the Widow Mine's +shield damage is calculated? Does it pretty much instantly remove the 35 shields and then proceed to do it's damage? Because if it does it's payload and then does 35 shield damage ontop of it the only thing that effects are shots to Carriers and Colossus :/
As a Terran player I was really hoping for some kind of Hellbat nerf. I simply cannot find the will to log into the beta knowing I may roll a TvT which quickly became the stupidest matchup (worse than Reaper wars, imo) since the Hellbat drop build.
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Cannot believe these changes are going through.
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On February 08 2013 10:07 Ksi wrote:
The fact that Blizzard is now resorting to giving bonus damage vs very, very specific unit types seems like a step in the wrong direction for how they should approach balance. It seems a little too conservative in one sense (making mild damage buffs vs. specific targets rather than reworking the units as a whole), but also a bit too complicated in another sense. I'd really hate to see us 5 patches down the line with every unit having a bunch of extremely specific +damage modifiers.
Yeah they should stop trying to control the metagame if it is mutas in zvz right now, let it be i can guarantee it will not remain that way. Let the players play don't make changes that specifically counter 1 unit to try and shit the meta game over top what they want it to be
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I'd love to see the developers thoughts on the recent patches these make less and less sense to me. Biggest problem I'm seeing on the ladder is Protoss lategame... I play random, and it's silly. As Protoss I open with whatever, stargate or robo or gateway, scout and don't die to cheese, take bases, get collosus, get another base, get tempest, compliment with whatever and a-move. It's silly, my win rate as protoss is better than zerg and I'm masters zerg in WoL and play protoss only in team games xD.
So yeah I just don't get why they are putting in those changes... I mean the Spore Crawler change is nice I guess but mutas attacking your mineral lines weren't really the problem it's more that if they have mutas and you don't you can really leave your base or grab another. If you're stuck on 2base it's an instant loss and if you have 3 and don't lose too many drones you just make units and walk across the map and win. It's not that black and white but that's what it boils down to in most cases and spore crawler damage boost doesn't really fix that at all...
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On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.
Which is why I find it funny when people say "don't worry, it's just a suggestion." It's not, they've already decided regardless of what is said in response to the ideas.
This +shields thing should be on tanks, period. Even if it's an upgrade.
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My question is why wasn't the +shield damage given to the tank? The tank is (should be) the core, and not the Widow Mine.
On February 08 2013 10:23 Rance wrote:
They should've added a +dmg vs shield upgrade for the siege tank since every toss unit counters them
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On February 08 2013 10:11 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone know how the Widow Mine's +shield damage is calculated? Does it pretty much instantly remove the 35 shields and then proceed to do it's damage? Because if it does it's payload and then does 35 shield damage ontop of it the only thing that effects are shots to Carriers and Colossus :/
As a Terran player I was really hoping for some kind of Hellbat nerf. I simply cannot find the will to log into the beta knowing I may roll a TvT which quickly became the stupidest matchup (worse than Reaper wars, imo) since the Hellbat drop build.
Also Archons, and MS I believe, but I too am curious to the exact calculation. Too bad beta's still down for patching so we can't test it.
And I second your thoughts on the hellbat. I play Random in HotS now, and even in the bottom of the barrel where I end up due to that the hellbat is dominating EVERYTHING. Honestly I'm not surprised that there haven't been any nerfs to it just yet with all of Blizzard's "We like to wait to see the metagame develop a little at least, and not just make rash use of the nerf bat" lines they hit us with for so long about the infestor. I would have liked to see a MENTION of it though. A "We are looking into the TvT and TvX matchups right now and will get back to you later" or something.
I really have no doubt that HotS will work out in the end, even if this patch was a little bit of a bust. But Sooner would be better because ladder anxiety be damned, hellbat anxiety is WAY WAY worse. lol
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Appalling changes mostly.
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Protoss in HoTS desperately need a nerf. Protoss all ins vs terran are frickin ridiculous right now. If a terran 1 rax FEs there is no good response to a void ray all in or blink stalker all in. The terran pretty much out right dies.
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Surprised nothing hit the Oracle's damage/dps, it seems like it kills workers wayyyyy too fast.
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They should've added a +dmg vs shield upgrade for the siege tank since every toss unit counters them
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Specific damage (shield and antibio-spore) shows that balance has reached its limits. As they can't add new units/spells in the game, for it will complicate the game to a point where it would break the whole game, they have to make more and more small modifications, meaning : one clear anti-one-unit mod.
Before this, we were seing general solutions that had other applications as the metagame found those. Like for the WM. Now they are exploring this way, so directive to the player, a way that can't enlarge the builds, but simply shut them down.
Envision is really good, i saw Grubby using this on medivacs, on moving armies.
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Just got the beta, I'm wondering how long it usually goes down for patches?
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Why is it called balance update when blizzard actually is attempting to reduce the viability of mutalisks in zvz?
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Seems like they're not ready to make any big changes yet, just some minor tweaks to help stop Mutalisks in ZvZ, further buff Zerg scouting, make Envision more viable. The biggest change is probably the Fungal Growth change and Widow Mine change versus Protoss. Their Fungal-to-projectile nerf wasn't working as intended, the projectile was so fast it was nearly instant cast. The Widow Mine change I can't see being a huge buff versus Protoss, but we'll see how it plays out.
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Widow mine change does nothing for when games go long. The longer the game goes, the worse it is to have widow mines in your army in TvP.
Blizzard does not understand after the last months why mech tvp does not work. For people that think they'll "get it" it's not going to happen at this rate.
Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
Don't expect mech tvp to be viable upon release - blizzard has no clue how to make it viable (and they are completely unwilling to listen on how to make tanks more viable), and at this point they throw random stuff at mech tvp and just pray it works instead of focusing on things like nerfing tempests, making tanks not suck, and nerfing immortals.
Oh wells.
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When the game is released blizzard will get a hefty balance hangover. It started out decent, you gave them the benefit of the doubt that they would work it out, but they screwed it royaly. Blizzard will have a pretty hefty balance wakeup when the game is released and tournaments start going.
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I'm trying to figure this out. Revelation costs 75 energy, and no one uses it. Even if they were to use it, it's not going to eliminate any potential counters. Envisions costs 50 energy and now last for 60 seconds, giving it child proof against DT's? You have free hallucination. You opened air. What point in the game do you find yourself in your opponent's base gathering intel? Is this bronze league? How much time do you need to be able to react in a sensible way? Apparently, you don't need to scout now, because with 60 seconds, you can just wait for their strategy to show up.
Is there anywhere where they give the thoughts behind this? I just really can't see the reasoning behind this, besides trying to make sky toss not have counters. You can make cannons in p vs t before getting a robo up to stop mines, when going oracles. No biggie. For 60 seconds of revelation, along with a good attack, I'm starting to think the observer might be overpriced.
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On February 08 2013 10:30 Kireak wrote:
When the game is released blizzard will get a hefty balance hangover. It started out decent, you gave them the benefit of the doubt that they would work it out, but they screwed it royaly. Blizzard will have a pretty hefty balance wakeup when the game is released and tournaments start going.
Pretty much this. It's very pitiful that the beta has been out this long and blizzard has been unwilling to make the necessary changes to make mech tvp viable. They refuse to listen and they will not listen it looks like until post-release when they realize mech tvp is still shit.
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Still waiting on that hellbat nerf. Early game TvT is really dumb.
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I still firmly think they need to get rid of the bio status from helbats... they do way too much damage to be able to be kept alive for forever with medivacs. Helbats make TvT broken.
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Waiting for hellbat nerf ... Anyways, do anybody know how long the beta is usually down? I really want to play ._.
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I like the spore upgrade. Perfect for anti-muta
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On February 08 2013 10:34 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:
Waiting for hellbat nerf ... Anyways, do anybody know how long the beta is usually down? I really want to play ._.
Usually a few hours, so back up late tonight (relative to EST).
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so...he says he knows that the fungal nerf makes mutas more powerful/potent in ZvZ, but then nerfs fungal? no muta ball engages static defense (even the current spore crawler) until the ball is big enough to lke 2-3 shot the turret/cannon/spore anyway? til then the muta is used primarily as a map control/contain. now it's even better at that job.
unbelievable.
why does he like to "phase stuff out" instead of fix them? like snipe/mothership/fungal, have receieved a TON of great suggestions from the community and nothing is tested out at all. i'll never understand the logic of making a unit "phased out of play" to discourage players from using them.
every unit should be useful. dayvie logic = "well if the unit is a problem, we'll just phase it out so that nobody uses it...then it's not a problem anymore. problem solved"
unbelievable. i don't like the approach he's taking to balancing things that are "too good". at least in brood war, every unit was useful in some way. useless units mean less damn strategy. this game needs MORE strategy not less.
unbelievable.
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Hellbats move extremely slow and have a fantastic 2 range; while they are powerful I think there is room for counter-play as they can easily be effectively kited easier than non-charge Zealots, and this could make the game more interesting once people get used to it.
I think a 4 BFH drop is more devastating considering you can't run your workers away, so I wouldn't be so quick to patch it.
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Nice. These are pretty cool changes.
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On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.
Just pointing out... When they asked for opinions on the changes, very few people actually said "Don't do these changes"... Most people said things like "Spores wont be enough Hydras should be buffed too" or "Hellbats need to be nerfed"... But of the people who actually responded to the proposed changes weren't saying "No, don't do them".
That's what happens when people bring their own complaints in, instead of responding to what was proposed.
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wow wow wow... what? widow mines = protoss counter? man... cmon david kim... y u do dis...
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I'm ok with these changes. I really hope they would buff hydras though. Maybe a small health increase. It'll help things in all match-ups
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On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.
because on high level there is no problem names sky toss, its only in the mind of some lower league players not knowing how to deal with it so ... fine they see it same way !
good change
i gave them positive feedback when they said it
013 10:43 McKTenor13 wrote:[/B]
I'm ok with these changes. I really hope they would buff hydras though. Maybe a small health increase. It'll help things in all match-ups[/QUOTE]
you could get the danger of "i go only hyds" zergs
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On February 08 2013 10:39 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Hellbats move extremely slow and have a fantastic 2 range; while they are powerful I think there is room for counter-play as they can easily be effectively kited easier than non-charge Zealots, and this could make the game more interesting once people get used to it.
I think a 4 BFH drop is more devastating considering you can't run your workers away, so I wouldn't be so quick to patch it.
You can't run your workers away from the boosted medivac.
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how long is the beta usually down for?
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On February 08 2013 10:18 DemigodcelpH wrote:
My question is why wasn't the +shield damage given to the tank? The tank is (should be) the core, and not the Widow Mine.
1) The tank has no separate single target attack and having + shields splash steps on EMP.
2) the whole point of the immortal having hardened shield is to give a mid game robo option against tanks, so giving + shield damage to tanks would completely defeat the purpose of hardened shield in the first place.
3) It gives the mech options some cyclical nature to them, archons are good against hellbats because of the bio tag, mines are good against archons because of their shield damage, stalkers are good against widow mines because of their range and tanks are good against stalkers because of their range + armored damage.
People love tanks, but making them god-mode isn't necessarily the way to go about it.
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SG openings in PvP are much safer now from DT's I kinda don't like this much since I often use DT's in PvP since they nerfed the blink 2 patches ago.
-Widow mine buff vs Protoss seems reasonable.
- Ovie speed, hmm I don't know about this, but this give zergs more map vision when they already superior to it ( Overlords, Overseers, Speedlings, and Creep.) -_-
Generally good patch for me. But I'm still waiting for a change(nerf) on Swarm Hosts. :
And also lol @ ppl saying TvP mech does not work. It does. also Bio-Mech.It's not as solid as Bio but still viable.
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes.
well in wol protoss has zero answers to mass broordlord infestor, strangely the zergs was fine with it ...
as for me in mid-high masters, the zergs can deal pretty fine with my skytoss i have to say (only not if they ignore making no infestors)
so as protoss i would say "swarm host too good protoss no answer need change" but NO i still need more TIME to figure out how to deal with it, i think thats the difference in p and z,
z cry, p try 
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I feel like buffing widow mines doesn't really increase the viability of mech, because widow mines are often used with pure bio and marine-tank strategies. I think buffing tanks would be a better solution.
Giving tanks bonus damage to shields is a great idea. If not that, maybe tank damage could be increased slightly. Tanks aren't currently strong enough to make mech an alternative to bio in tvp imo. I'm not sure how strong mech will be in the other two matchups once the HotS metagame is more developed.
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[QUOTE]On February 08 2013 10:44 CoR wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.[/QUOTE]
because on high level there is no problem names sky toss, its only in the mind of some lower league players not knowing how to deal with it so ... fine they see it same way !
This makes no sense. I am not lower league so if you are implying anyone not GM is incapable of playing then that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
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On February 08 2013 10:23 Psych wrote:
Protoss in HoTS desperately need a nerf. Protoss all ins vs terran are frickin ridiculous right now. If a terran 1 rax FEs there is no good response to a void ray all in or blink stalker all in. The terran pretty much out right dies.
if a protoss goes 1gate expand with an 1base terran all in with marine scv etc, he dies since ages ....
perhaps you guys have to scout more and if you cant just stop making Rax CC rax rax CC gas gas ... thats so fucking greedy and is fine to not work anymore !
On February 08 2013 10:52 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.
because on high level there is no problem names sky toss, its only in the mind of some lower league players not knowing how to deal with it so ... fine they see it same way !
This makes no sense. I am not lower league so if you are implying anyone not GM is incapable of playing then that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. [/QUOTE]
well then i still wonder why you have problems ... when i go skytoss the zergs know how to deal with it, look gm more and more zergs in top, try mass queen mass swarmhost openings, then air sucks as hell xD there are alot of ways zerg can deal with it ofc not let p have 5 bases and ignore they mass up, its same like p wasnt allowed to do it in wol because even if p had 10k 10k if zerg was maxed on broodlord infestor only there was no way to win anymore whatever the minerals says, so now zerg have to play more intelligent not just bunker and wait until tomorrow, but still the mass swarmhost mass queen in mass corrupter seems to fuck it like hell
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I like all these changes, but don't think they should stop here. Still think Tanks need a buff, still think Voids should lose their extended leash range, still think Tempests should cost more supply.
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On February 08 2013 10:33 ManicMarine wrote:
Still waiting on that hellbat nerf. Early game TvT is really dumb.
Happy birthday mate, looks like we're quite similar
but yeah hellbats are ridiculous, almost as bad as 1 supply roaches
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On February 08 2013 10:54 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I like all these changes, but don't think they should stop here. Still think Tanks need a buff, still think Voids should lose their extended leash range, still think Tempests should cost more supply.
and thats the problem with oppinions, like all you want is "buff terran nerf protoss" and they wiont react to 1 sided ideas, because right now, terrans seems to do pretty fine so buff them nerf p cant be the answer
if you want change then give p something and take t something in order to make the changes you want too
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On February 08 2013 10:49 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. well in wol protoss has zero answers to mass broordlord infestor, strangely the zergs was fine with it ... as for me in mid-high masters, the zergs can deal pretty fine with my skytoss i have to say (only not if they ignore making no infestors) so as protoss i would say "swarm host too good protoss no answer need change" but NO i still need more TIME to figure out how to deal with it, i think thats the difference in p and z, z cry, p try
LOL look at live report threads protosses bitch and moan as much if not more then zergs rofl for the past 8 months.
This patch is crappy hopefully sky toss nerf soon.
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the overlord upgrade to hatchery is....Huge!?
Now you get the upgrade, scout the opponent and voila, you know if you are gonna build range units, melee units or spellcasters. You know if you are gonna have to drone hard, or if you need faster units.
You know what upgrades you are gonna go before hand.
I like this change. Tho! Lair+overseer takes 17seconds more than upgrading the overlord speed.
Is this enough?
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The hellbat unit is amazing imo. Hellbat drops make the game....dynamic...i think i have that word correct, maybe not but i will then say it becomes way more intersting. A hellbat drop can occur anytime in your base, so you need to be prepared.
With this kind of stuff, makes the game just way more interesting.
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Terrible changes I think.
Hatchery
-The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now only requires a Hatchery. why? what is the reasoning for this? I don't get it. Seems like early zerg attacks will be tougher to defend against. Maybe tanks are getting a buff and this is in preperation for that?
spore
-The weapon damage for Acid Spew has been increased from 15 to 15 + 15 vs. Biological. This seems to counter mass muta style, but it won't because a huge pack of muta's are gonna own that spore in a single shot.
Widow Mine
-The primary target damage for Sentinel Missiles has been increased from 125 to 125 +35 vs. Shields. This will help against protoss all in stuff, but I still think oracle's, at the speed they come out at, are so devestating to worker lines. I personally don't like the window mine as a unit.... may have to switch races lol.
Also I swear that David Kim said they were gonna watch pro matches of HOTS, and after watching the MLG winter qualifers I really think hellbats need to be adjusted lol, and skytoss
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You guys,
This is a beta.
David said they're going to test different buffs/nerfs to see which builds/playstyles become OP and react accordingly.
They have plenty of time to make more changes,
this isn't the end of the world.
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On February 08 2013 10:52 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:23 Psych wrote:
Protoss in HoTS desperately need a nerf. Protoss all ins vs terran are frickin ridiculous right now. If a terran 1 rax FEs there is no good response to a void ray all in or blink stalker all in. The terran pretty much out right dies. if a protoss goes 1gate expand with an 1base terran all in with marine scv etc, he dies since ages .... perhaps you guys have to scout more and if you cant just stop making Rax CC rax rax CC gas gas ... thats so fucking greedy and is fine to not work anymore ! Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:52 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. because on high level there is no problem names sky toss, its only in the mind of some lower league players not knowing how to deal with it so ... fine they see it same way ! This makes no sense. I am not lower league so if you are implying anyone not GM is incapable of playing then that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
well then i still wonder why you have problems ... when i go skytoss the zergs know how to deal with it, look gm more and more zergs in top, try mass queen mass swarmhost openings, then air sucks as hell xD there are alot of ways zerg can deal with it ofc not let p have 5 bases and ignore they mass up, its same like p wasnt allowed to do it in wol because even if p had 10k 10k if zerg was maxed on broodlord infestor only there was no way to win anymore whatever the minerals says, so now zerg have to play more intelligent not just bunker and wait until tomorrow, but still the mass swarmhost mass queen in mass corrupter seems to fuck it like hell[/QUOTE]
I know that was the case in WOL but that should be balanced in HOTS not match up should revolve around "I have to win before he gets 5 bases" it should be "It will be easier to win if i can prevent him from expanding but if I cant I can do x or y and still win."
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On February 08 2013 10:41 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Just pointing out... When they asked for opinions on the changes, very few people actually said "Don't do these changes"... Most people said things like "Spores wont be enough Hydras should be buffed too" or "Hellbats need to be nerfed"... But of the people who actually responded to the proposed changes weren't saying "No, don't do them". That's what happens when people bring their own complaints in, instead of responding to what was proposed.
Pretty much. The feedback they got was either nonconstructive or it was "Well, I don't think that X will be enough." In the case of the latter, that pretty much means "Go ahead and test it and we'll see."
So lets test it and see what happens. I'm not really expecting any huge changes. I'd like to see Oracles adjusted somehow, but shit if I know how without breaking them completely.
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I don't get all of the hate, it isn't that bad. I like the carapace option being expanded in particular
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Not really feeling the widow mine change but i'm going to have to play a lot more to really get a feel for it.
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WTB MsC/MC change please.
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On February 08 2013 10:59 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:52 CoR wrote:On February 08 2013 10:23 Psych wrote:
Protoss in HoTS desperately need a nerf. Protoss all ins vs terran are frickin ridiculous right now. If a terran 1 rax FEs there is no good response to a void ray all in or blink stalker all in. The terran pretty much out right dies. if a protoss goes 1gate expand with an 1base terran all in with marine scv etc, he dies since ages .... perhaps you guys have to scout more and if you cant just stop making Rax CC rax rax CC gas gas ... thats so fucking greedy and is fine to not work anymore ! On February 08 2013 10:52 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. because on high level there is no problem names sky toss, its only in the mind of some lower league players not knowing how to deal with it so ... fine they see it same way ! This makes no sense. I am not lower league so if you are implying anyone not GM is incapable of playing then that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. well then i still wonder why you have problems ... when i go skytoss the zergs know how to deal with it, look gm more and more zergs in top, try mass queen mass swarmhost openings, then air sucks as hell xD there are alot of ways zerg can deal with it ofc not let p have 5 bases and ignore they mass up, its same like p wasnt allowed to do it in wol because even if p had 10k 10k if zerg was maxed on broodlord infestor only there was no way to win anymore whatever the minerals says, so now zerg have to play more intelligent not just bunker and wait until tomorrow, but still the mass swarmhost mass queen in mass corrupter seems to fuck it like hell
I know that was the case in WOL but that should be balanced in HOTS not match up should revolve around "I have to win before he gets 5 bases" it should be "It will be easier to win if i can prevent him from expanding but if I cant I can do x or y and still win."[/QUOTE]
i think we wont come to a point here ^_^
in wol they waitedl ike 6+ month to change that sometimes, and i think skytoss etc need at least 2-3 months to figure out if and how imba if you say so
changing it instant before 99% of zergs even try to understand it ... i mean 99% of zergs still think void make extra dmg charged to hyds ... or that tempest make their 80dmg vs corrupters instead of their like 30 all 3,3 seconds
also nio zerg go back vs charged voids, fight vs them charged etc etc etc
no nerf before zergs try at least to deal with it ...
(not to mention from alot p the main op seems to be pvt where alot of protos have a 70-80+ winratio, but it doesnt matter if white-ra or just a rnd gamer like me on masters, the pvz winratio seems to be like 30-50% so not the right time to nerf it ...)
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I feel that people who complain that Skytoss is imba are the Zerg who just a-move their entire army into yours and expect to win.
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I don't want to be cynical or anything, but when they changed the projectile speed of fungal growth from 10 to 15, everyone could tell that 12 would have been a better choice. Good they're getting around to it I guess.
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I don't understand the Pneumatized Carapace change. What does this change try to accomplish? Will anyone actually ever get the overlord speed at hatchery tech?
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NO! why are they making mines even better?!? 아이구 ㅠ_ㅠ
and the overlord speed makes the 1base lair roach burrow drop even better....
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On February 08 2013 11:07 Hier wrote:
I don't understand the Pneumatized Carapace change. What does this change try to accomplish? Will anyone actually ever get the overlord speed at hatchery tech?
no xD zerg play 4hatch before pool, so they never have the gas, and if they do, protoss knows they go fastgas
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All this whining about hellbat drops remind me when people were whining about marauder drops back in the day. Now that I think about it though, if you gave the maurader aoe, better dps and 10 more hp (at the cost of lower range), and pair that up with an extremely fast medivac you basically have the old marauder drops on crack lol.
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These changes don't mean that much, there are probably going to be a lot more balance updates until release. And then some, when imbalances start appearing in the pro scene.
Slower fungals will probably make for some sick fungal dodging in pro games...
Anyone know when hots will be up again?
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On February 08 2013 11:05 Arco wrote:
I feel that people who complain that Skytoss is imba are the Zerg who just a-move their entire army into yours and expect to win.
People say that about everything.
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On February 08 2013 11:07 FlamingKitty wrote:
NO! why are they making mines even better?!? 아이구 ㅠ_ㅠ
and the overlord speed makes the 1base lair roach burrow drop even better....
To have something that make you shit your pants and we can drop with at 7-8 minutes other than hellbats.
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So it looks like they did the widow mine buff specifically so it 1-shots oracles. I regularly open oracle and I found that terrans that open widow mine don't have any trouble dealing with oracle harass. The oracle eats one shot, is down to 35 hp and can get picked off by marines easily. The only time they have trouble against it is if they proxy the factory and the buff doesn't fix that.
So I think their idea is that we have to activate detection to see if there's a widow mine, and if not we can retreat, but if we do that we might not harass with the oracle anyway since it spawns with 50 energy takes about 30s to get to the enemy base so you have 80 energy -50 for envision. if there's no widow mine you can activate pulsar beam for -25 energy and then you have enough energy to kill 2 scv's and scare one a little and then you're out of energy.
I don't think 1rax expand is a very good build anymore. CC first is still really good, and you have a ton of things you can do with gas openings. Just because a particular WOL build doesn't work anymore doesn't mean that the game should be fixed to work exactly like WOL.
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This game will be amazing if people stop using fungal growth
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This patch is a mess and doesn't fix major problems still.
- Still no nerf to protoss air, they are too much reward for little risk. So they respond by buffing the Oracle's Envision spell. I guess it's nice against DT rushes in PvP but it does nothing for TvP. Oracles still feel kinda overpowered there. I still want to see some MSC nerf. I don't care what they do to it, make it take longer to build, make it higher in the tech tree, I don't care. It is too good of a unit for how early you get it. It makes TvP stale as fuck.
- Widow Mine buff is nice but it was already pretty good before. Still doesn't make pure mech viable because the tank still blows. I don't feel like a buff was really needed.
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On February 08 2013 11:09 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
All this whining about hellbat drops remind me when people were whining about marauder drops back in the day. Now that I think about it though, if you gave the maurader aoe, better dps and 10 more hp (at the cost of lower range), and pair that up with an extremely fast medivac you basically have the old marauder drops on crack lol.
Marauder drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Hellbats can destroy an entire mineral line in seconds, and they do enough damage against everything else that they can put up a decent fight against the defending army. Hellbats are cheap enough that the drop basically always pays for itself.
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Meh, doesn't seem like too big of a change to me. Envision was a smart idea, it ran out a little too quickly.
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On February 08 2013 10:07 Ksi wrote:
The fact that Blizzard is now resorting to giving bonus damage vs very, very specific unit types seems like a step in the wrong direction for how they should approach balance. It seems a little too conservative in one sense (making mild damage buffs vs. specific targets rather than reworking the units as a whole), but also a bit too complicated in another sense. I'd really hate to see us 5 patches down the line with every unit having a bunch of extremely specific +damage modifiers.
They've been doing that with SC2 from the very beginning.
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On February 08 2013 10:05 avilo wrote:
Oracle still leads to build order wins, TvP is quite broken at this point. Expecting a lot of Terran players to switch race upon release.
Oh, and wait a minute, what? More early game buffs for Zerg? ....
What Terrans?
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i agree with people saying skytoss is too strong, late game 3/3/3 skytoss is nearly unbeatable and is the best late game army in the game by far right now.
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On February 08 2013 11:11 Enki wrote:I still want to see some MSC nerf. I don't take what they do to it, make it take longer to build, make it higher in the tech tree, I don't care. It is too good of a unit for how early you get it. It makes TvP stale as fuck.
I might be biased because I'm toss, but I think it's good that there's something that forces terrans to play less greedy. You can easily deal with a msc/stalker rush if you don't cut marines while 1rax expanding, or if you open widow mine, or if you go cc first / 3rax So basically you'll always be fine unless you rush reaper while 1rax expanding... which is somethin you just can't do simply because of the threat of msc and oracle.
Alternatively if you scout a single or no gas opening you can just go ahead and cut corners because there's any threat of a msc at your front any time soon.
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Platinum-Diamond Terran here. Still dont know what to do with Widow Mines. TvP? Really? How can they hit Stalker,Immortal,Observer,Void Ray,Carrier,Tempest or Collosus??? 5 range in crappy for Widow Mines,but at least they will serve to kill all the Protoss Gate Units.
Have you seen any Progamer use them past 10 mins??? xD
If they want to improve TvP,why no apply this "+Xshield damage" to the tank?
Still impossible for Zerg to beat Skytoss....
One month Dayvie and the BETA is in ALPHA State and you believe its almost done...Soooo sad :-(
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On February 08 2013 10:49 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. well in wol protoss has zero answers to mass broordlord infestor, strangely the zergs was fine with it ... as for me in mid-high masters, the zergs can deal pretty fine with my skytoss i have to say (only not if they ignore making no infestors) so as protoss i would say "swarm host too good protoss no answer need change" but NO i still need more TIME to figure out how to deal with it, i think thats the difference in p and z, z cry, p try
I am curious, when was the last time a protoss lost to BL/infestor in WoL? I have only been watching a bit of code S (which doesnt have many protoss in it) so this is an honest question.
Also, do you think it is a good decision to have things do a complete 180 so that the other side dominates for an extended period of time? Or should they actually strive for balance?
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I like how they are making Terran play rather consistently across all mech units. They all have secondary abilities, basically transform, but they don't cost upgrades now??? That's rather gamechanging...
Are they trying to make SC2 simpler? I'm not opposed to that because it opens it up to more gamers, but that's a pretty big dang change.
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On February 08 2013 11:16 EleanorRIgby wrote:
i agree with people saying skytoss is too strong, late game 3/3/3 skytoss is nearly unbeatable and is the best late game army in the game by far right now.
Protoss is supposed to have the strongest late game army. It's Terran and Zerg's job to utilize their mobility advantage to shut down Protoss expansions and engage this army on favorable terms, then quickly remax with an economic advantage to finish it off. Protoss can't rebuild the army if they have no economy. Suiciding armies into a Protoss player's Skyball who has a strong economy is just asking to lose.
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On February 08 2013 10:11 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone know how the Widow Mine's +shield damage is calculated? Does it pretty much instantly remove the 35 shields and then proceed to do it's damage? Because if it does it's payload and then does 35 shield damage ontop of it the only thing that effects are shots to Carriers and Colossus :/
As a Terran player I was really hoping for some kind of Hellbat nerf. I simply cannot find the will to log into the beta knowing I may roll a TvT which quickly became the stupidest matchup (worse than Reaper wars, imo) since the Hellbat drop build.
What I'm really curious about is, what if you have a protoss whose shields have been knocked down below 35 but aren't at 0? Will you get the full +35, or will the bonus damage stop once the shields are gone?
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On February 08 2013 11:05 Arco wrote:
I feel that people who complain that Skytoss is imba are the Zerg who just a-move their entire army into yours and expect to win.
I second this.
One month Dayvie and the BETA is in ALPHA State and you believe its almost done...Soooo sad :-(
I think Alpha phase is before Beta. Where only programmers and developers test the game.
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On February 08 2013 11:27 Tamburlaine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:11 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone know how the Widow Mine's +shield damage is calculated? Does it pretty much instantly remove the 35 shields and then proceed to do it's damage? Because if it does it's payload and then does 35 shield damage ontop of it the only thing that effects are shots to Carriers and Colossus :/
As a Terran player I was really hoping for some kind of Hellbat nerf. I simply cannot find the will to log into the beta knowing I may roll a TvT which quickly became the stupidest matchup (worse than Reaper wars, imo) since the Hellbat drop build. What I'm really curious about is, what if you have a protoss whose shields have been knocked down below 35 but aren't at 0? Will you get the full +35, or will the bonus damage stop once the shields are gone?
Likely the bonus will deal damage to the shields as long as they are there, up to a maximum of 35 per attack.
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Awesome! More hardcounter in the game. They know how to make the game worse. :D
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On February 08 2013 11:27 Tamburlaine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:11 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone know how the Widow Mine's +shield damage is calculated? Does it pretty much instantly remove the 35 shields and then proceed to do it's damage? Because if it does it's payload and then does 35 shield damage ontop of it the only thing that effects are shots to Carriers and Colossus :/
As a Terran player I was really hoping for some kind of Hellbat nerf. I simply cannot find the will to log into the beta knowing I may roll a TvT which quickly became the stupidest matchup (worse than Reaper wars, imo) since the Hellbat drop build. What I'm really curious about is, what if you have a protoss whose shields have been knocked down below 35 but aren't at 0? Will you get the full +35, or will the bonus damage stop once the shields are gone?
If you have a Colossus with 150HP/25SP you'll end up at 25HP after being hit by Widow Mine.
It basically works like EMP.
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Can we forget about this widow mine, helbat fiasco and go back to vultures and spider mines?
I can only dream of vultures...
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I for one will not be buying this shitty patch in March.
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I can't believe they have the nerve to push for those changes. This is the worst patch imo, with all the gimmick bonus damage vs shields and spore bonus damage vs bio. This is unprecedented and it just shows how desperate these people are. If you have to delay release to get things fixed the right way then by all means do that.
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I am having the game telling me I don't have an account available in the region. Anyone else have this problem and know of a potential solution?
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I have never heard so many QQers in my life on balance. You guys are not even looking at this stuff logically. Then you wonder why Blizzard does not listen to your ridiculous suggestions.
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On February 08 2013 11:20 Dvriel wrote:
Platinum-Diamond Terran here. Still dont know what to do with Widow Mines. TvP? Really? How can they hit Stalker,Immortal,Observer,Void Ray,Carrier,Tempest or Collosus??? 5 range in crappy for Widow Mines,but at least they will serve to kill all the Protoss Gate Units.
Have you seen any Progamer use them past 10 mins??? xD
If they want to improve TvP,why no apply this "+Xshield damage" to the tank?
Still impossible for Zerg to beat Skytoss....
One month Dayvie and the BETA is in ALPHA State and you believe its almost done...Soooo sad :-(
Lol you essentially say everything i have been saying for ages to my friends.
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On February 08 2013 11:35 i)awn wrote:
I can't believe they have the nerve to push for those changes. This is the worst patch imo, with all the gimmick bonus damage vs shields and spore bonus damage vs bio. This is unprecedented and it just shows how desperate these people are. If you have to delay release to get things fixed the right way then by all means do that.
Archons do bonus damage to bio, so there is a precedence for that. You could argue that EMP effectively does bonus damage to shield also.
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A little over a month left til this game is out...only played for 4 days and meh there's some changes they need to address...
Void Rays - PvP is just a mess right now and it's all because of this. I know the other races are complaining about Voids so I don't really mind a nerf on this unit.
Tempest - Probably need to be more supply. Needs a slight nerf as well.
Oracle - Maybe it's the constant chrono but these come out pretty fast and do ridiculous damage to the worker line against any of the races. Maybe increase build time.
Hellbat - If it's deployed, it does SICK damage to the mineral and it's not that hard to deploy it when you have the boost from medivacs. So tanky as well. I'm not particular sure how to nerf this unit but it needs to be nerfed.
Widow Mine - This buff will help deal with Oracle harass but too many Terrans proxy the factory and fly it in the Protoss base to later see them lose more workers than Protoss and complain. If Terrans would keep the factory back in their base, they will have a better chance of defending the Oracle harass.
Medivac - The cooldown probably needs to be increased or the durability of the boost needs to be shorten. It's too easy to deploy and escape in my opinion.
Mutalisks - The regeneration needs a slight nerf. They are able to poke in and out way too often.
Swarm Hosts - Locusts are strong and I think need a slight nerf somehow. Maybe make it where upgrades don't affect the locusts. That might be too big of a nerf probably but something needs to be addressed with this unit.
Just my take on it and like I said I only played 4 days so most of this may be wrong for all I know.
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I guess we have to wait for tournaments to show them what is OP. They can't see it right now.
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All these changes were announced by David Kim, there are no other changes.
We still don't know what are (if there any) their other plans... Looks like their are polishing the game for the release, maybe we shouldn't expect big balance / unit design changes until patch 2.1 ?
I am disappointed that they didn't even try anything in the beta for Corruptors / Nydus Worms / Swarm Host issues.
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It seems like Blizzard is trying to implement changes to balance the game using band aid solutions, but I think these only serve to introduce complicated rules.
If you put too many layers of icing on the cake, it will taste horrible...
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nerf hellbat please T____T
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On February 08 2013 11:26 Arco wrote:
Terran is supposed to have the strongest late game army. It's Protoss and Zerg's job to utilize their mobility advantage to shut down Terran expansions and engage this Mech army on favorable terms, then quickly remax with an economic advantage to finish it off. Terran can't rebuild the army if they have no economy. Suiciding armies into a Terran player's Mech who has a strong economy is just asking to lose.
Fixed it for you. ^_^. This is how the game should be.
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On February 08 2013 10:56 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:49 CoR wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. well in wol protoss has zero answers to mass broordlord infestor, strangely the zergs was fine with it ... as for me in mid-high masters, the zergs can deal pretty fine with my skytoss i have to say (only not if they ignore making no infestors) so as protoss i would say "swarm host too good protoss no answer need change" but NO i still need more TIME to figure out how to deal with it, i think thats the difference in p and z, z cry, p try This patch is crappy hopefully sky toss nerf soon.
nvm
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On February 08 2013 11:47 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 11:26 Arco wrote:
Terran is supposed to have the strongest late game army. It's Protoss and Zerg's job to utilize their mobility advantage to shut down Terran expansions and engage this Mech army on favorable terms, then quickly remax with an economic advantage to finish it off. Terran can't rebuild the army if they have no economy. Suiciding armies into a Terran player's Mech who has a strong economy is just asking to lose. Fixed it for you. ^_^. This is how the game should be.
If you count Raven's, BC's, Ghost's as part of the 'mech' army, it is already kinda like this.
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On February 08 2013 11:40 .kv wrote:
A little over a month left til this game is out...only played for 4 days and meh there's some changes they need to address...
Void Rays - PvP is just a mess right now and it's all because of this. I know the other races are complaining about Voids so I don't really mind a nerf on this unit.
Tempest - Probably need to be more supply. Needs a slight nerf as well.
Oracle - Maybe it's the constant chrono but these come out pretty fast and do ridiculous damage to the worker line against any of the races. Maybe increase build time.
Hellbat - If it's deployed, it does SICK damage to the mineral and it's not that hard to deploy it when you have the boost from medivacs. So tanky as well. I'm not particular sure how to nerf this unit but it needs to be nerfed.
Widow Mine - This buff will help deal with Oracle harass but too many Terrans proxy the factory and fly it in the Protoss base to later see them lose more workers than Protoss and complain. If Terrans would keep the factory back in their base, they will have a better chance of defending the Oracle harass.
Medivac - The cooldown probably needs to be increased or the durability of the boost needs to be shorten. It's too easy to deploy and escape in my opinion.
Mutalisks - The regeneration needs a slight nerf. They are able to poke in and out way too often.
Swarm Hosts - Locusts are strong and I think need a slight nerf somehow. Maybe make it where upgrades don't affect the locusts. That might be too big of a nerf probably but something needs to be addressed with this unit.
Just my take on it and like I said I only played 4 days so most of this may be wrong for all I know.
So...you just want to play WoL.
Most of these units are fine. Eventually people will find ways to deal with them,then new strategies then other ways to deal with them and so on and after a couple of years and a good amount of patches the game will be mostly balanced and we will be getting ready for Legacy of the Void.
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lol, why in the world is ovie speed at hatch again? Scouting wise you may as well go to lair anyway for that cost while also unlocking overseers if needed, never mind that competent zergs can already manage with regular overlords and zerglings. You almost never get the upgrade to begin with unless going for drops and even then, this doesn't change anything as ventral sacs at lair is the limiting factor with it's longer research time and higher cost...
c'mon Blizzard I had faith D;
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On February 08 2013 11:47 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 11:26 Arco wrote:
Terran is supposed to have the strongest late game army. It's Protoss and Zerg's job to utilize their mobility advantage to shut down Terran expansions and engage this Mech army on favorable terms, then quickly remax with an economic advantage to finish it off. Terran can't rebuild the army if they have no economy. Suiciding armies into a Terran player's Mech who has a strong economy is just asking to lose. Fixed it for you. ^_^. This is how the game should be.
That is BW.
Technically Protoss > Terran > Zerg in the original design.
Zergs should be the aggressive/greedy race, not Terrans.
Protoss should be the defensive/immobile race, not mech or broodlord infestor.
Terrans should be the tool-kit race that plays immobile/defensive v zergs and aggressive/greedy v protoss.
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I think 15 range is just way too much especially on an air unit. You should never be able to take free shots at your opponents army.
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Oh god, Envision has the potential to be so overpowered if used correctly.
Edit: Nvm, thought this was Revelation, and apparently that already has a 60 second duration. In my mind I was thinking double what it current lasts... holy crap.
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On February 08 2013 11:35 Fate91 wrote:
I have never heard so many QQers in my life on balance. You guys are not even looking at this stuff logically. Then you wonder why Blizzard does not listen to your ridiculous suggestions.
Lol this exactly. its a called a freckin beta for a reason, not that I think 90% of the stuff that people are whining about is even justified
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On February 08 2013 12:00 Baum wrote:
I think 15 range is just way too much especially on an air unit. You should never be able to take free shots at your opponents army.
yea it probably should be like a siege tank where it has to remain stationary until its ability is toggled otherwise it has a normal range.
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This is a joke, right? Oh well. I was hoping HotS to be balanced but obviously that wont be happening....
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Hellbat alone isn't really the problem because it's slow and short ranged, it's more the medivac boost ability that drops hellbats right where it hurts. The speed medivac should be an upgrade, or the hellbat form could maybe be researchable. Either way, hellbats should not be able to hit that early.
Oracle (damage) and tempest (damage vs air massive and/or supply) need a fix as well.
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On February 08 2013 12:08 Papulatus wrote:
This is a joke, right? Oh well. I was hoping HotS to be balanced but obviously that wont be happening....
Because clearly everything will be OP and no one will ever patch ever. Please calm down. The strategies they're playing with are not even well-defined yet. The metagame will take months to develop, and we'll doubtless see a few more balance patches between release and year's end. Just give it some time. The more effort you put into claiming brokenness, the less effort you're putting into actually trying to deal with the realities of the game and find viable strategies.
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This isn't really what I was hoping for, but I hardly think it's going to be the doom of HotS. So many whiny drama queens in this thread >_>
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All I can hear is 'waaaaaaah OP OP NERF'
You do realize it's all of your fault that WoL ended up a no rush 10min 200/200 game right? Nerf this nerf that...sooner or later NOTHING is good at anything anymore.
For fucks sake, just play the game and give criticism, not incessant bitching and complaining. The criticism doesn't even have to be constructive, my god.
If I was blizzard I'd completely 'ignore' you too.
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So now, Terran has even more tools that is a hardcounter to the whole Protoss race. Seems legit.
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On February 08 2013 12:13 Sakray wrote:
So now, Terran has even more tools that is a hardcounter to the whole Protoss race. Seems legit.
im sorry but what? what terran units hard counter the whole protoss race??
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After the widow mine nerf, you need 3 mines to kill an immortal, instead of 2 before the widow mine nerf.
After this patch, you still need 3 mines to kill an immortal, not 2.
The widow mine buff is not as good as many would think.
The same logic applies to all protoss units that 1 mine can't 1-shot. The reason is that after the first mine taking out the shield, the life that left on a protoss will only take 125 damage instead of 125+35 damage. So, immortal, colossus, tempest, carrier will not be affected too much by this patch.
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes.
how do you know after 1month... i hate how blind people are. Instead of testing something new and trying some timings before the ball gets to heavy people just flame-.- that will never help anyone Protoss player complained about Zerg for the last 8months in WoL and zerg players said it isnt op, so pls try something new see an opening and eventually counter it right now its just stupid to complain about it. Im not a fan of a deathball because its stupid and requires nearly no skill but like in WoL im pretty sure the deathball will dissappear in the near future because people learn new builds and ways to deal with it so it wont be that effective anymore.
Stalker now gets onehitted by widow mines again so i think thats a good buff for terran for some more space control in the mid-late but im not sure what to think about the spore buff because it wont really help in the later stages when the muta count is higher then 20 and infestor fungals will never hit a muta again if the player is cautious.
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So basically now 1 widow mine counters/ 1 shots all Protoss early game units 1v1, ouch...it's become the anti-Protoss unit! I don't quite understand how that unit has become basically a baneling on steroids. Buffed dmg, hits air and ground, re-usable, free burrow and cheap...I fail to see the drawback? I feel as if the better iteration of it was when it was sacrificed upon attack, especially now that it's gotten a damage buff.
Terran don't need more early/mid-game strength vs Protoss with this unit. They're tier1 is GG as is vs Protoss, it's hard on the toss at those stages of the game as is. Everyone will agree that the strength of Terran tier1 is evident by the fact that they can work with those units ALL game.
All in all bot sure why Terran need more anti-toss strength in the early/mid game.
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This is not so much about the changes they brought in but they changes they didn't bring in. Zerg anti air is bad, hellbats and widow mines are too good, sky toss is too good. And then what they do is give us t1 faster overlords for a problem that isn't even there. Its frustrating how we have been complaining about all of this stuff for a long time and yet they seem to just not listen no matter how many players tell them they are doing it wrong.
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On February 08 2013 12:28 Chaser808 wrote:
So basically now 1 widow mine counters/ 1 shots all Protoss early game units 1v1, ouch...it's become the anti-Protoss unit! I don't quite understand how that unit has become basically a baneling on steroids. Buffed dmg, hits air and ground, re-usable, free burrow and cheap...I fail to see the drawback? I feel as if the better iteration of it was when it was sacrificed upon attack, especially now that it's gotten a damage buff.
Terran don't need more early/mid-game strength vs Protoss with this unit. They're tier1 is GG as is vs Protoss, it's hard on the toss at those stages of the game as is. Everyone will agree that the strength of Terran tier1 is evident by the fact that they can work with those units ALL game.
All in all bot sure why Terran need more anti-toss strength in the early/mid game.
Late game TvP is so imbalanced that is the phase they should work on give T some kind of help....
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 08 2013 12:20 larse wrote:
After the widow mine nerf, you need 3 mines to kill an immortal, instead of 2 before the widow mine nerf.
After this patch, you still need 3 mines to kill an immortal, not 2.
The widow mine buff is not as good as many would think.
The same logic applies to all protoss units that 1 mine can't 1-shot. The reason is that after the first mine taking out the shield, the life that left on a protoss will only take 125 damage instead of 125+35 damage. So, immortal, colossus, tempest, carrier will not be affected too much by this patch.
If it took 2 mines per buff to kill how does it take 3 now?
And losing tier 1 units asap by a widow mine is crazy. It was good before and really bolstered terrain attacks and defences already as it was.
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On February 08 2013 12:32 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 12:20 larse wrote:
After the widow mine nerf, you need 3 mines to kill an immortal, instead of 2 before the widow mine nerf.
After this patch, you still need 3 mines to kill an immortal, not 2.
The widow mine buff is not as good as many would think.
The same logic applies to all protoss units that 1 mine can't 1-shot. The reason is that after the first mine taking out the shield, the life that left on a protoss will only take 125 damage instead of 125+35 damage. So, immortal, colossus, tempest, carrier will not be affected too much by this patch. If it took 2 mines per buff to kill how does it take 3 now? And losing tier 1 units asap by a widow mine is crazy. It was good before and really bolstered terrain attacks and defences already as it was.
After the first mine takes out the shield of immortal, the second mine will only damage immortal for 125 damage, not 160. So you can't 2 shot immortal. You need 3.
This is a very tricking change.
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Jesus Christmas...the only thing I see on this thread is a bunch of cry babies...Instead of whining how about ya'll go practice and come up with some cool new creative ways to deal with these so called "imbalances" this game isn't THAT broken to the point its unplayable...and if its such a hassle stop playing the beta and wait for the release and some patches yah n00bs! It's called BETA for a reason!!
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-The projectile speed for Fungal Growth has been reduced from 15 to 12?????,but that is what is happening, that blizzard is not realizing that they are leaving the useless infestor? that bad idea, underside of nerfiarlo therefore should delete it and put a new drive.
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On February 08 2013 12:25 Mantaza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. how do you know after 1month... i hate how blind people are. Instead of testing something new and trying some timings before the ball gets to heavy people just flame-.- that will never help anyone Protoss player complained about Zerg for the last 8months in WoL and zerg players said it isnt op, so pls try something new see an opening and eventually counter it right now its just stupid to complain about it. Im not a fan of a deathball because its stupid and requires nearly no skill but like in WoL im pretty sure the deathball will dissappear in the near future because people learn new builds and ways to deal with it so it wont be that effective anymore. Stalker now gets onehitted by widow mines again so i think thats a good buff for terran for some more space control in the mid-late but im not sure what to think about the spore buff because it wont really help in the later stages when the muta count is higher then 20 and infestor fungals will never hit a muta again if the player is cautious.
So because Infestor/BL is too good in WoL Skytoss is justified as being just as inbalanced..? Also many Zergs came to terms with IF/BL being to good...
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I think its good that a few people from every race are crying about balance. That is how it should be. I also think its funny when people suggest changes. They are almost always ridiculous. The problem is, everyone wants the race they play to get super easy wins on ladder, so they can be GM! But right now HOTS doesn't work like that. Its pretty difficult for every race right now. This is a good thing, it will make pro games all the more interesting to watch.
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I disagree with matchup specific adjustments (the widow mine change only affects TvP since only Protoss units have shields and the spore change only affects ZvZ since only Zerg have biological air units). I understand every unit is balanced with particular matchups in mind, but, correct me if I'm wrong, hasnt the beauty of StarCraft always been working with the same units with the same abiilities regardless of the matchup?
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On February 08 2013 12:28 Chaser808 wrote:
So basically now 1 widow mine counters/ 1 shots all Protoss early game units 1v1, ouch...it's become the anti-Protoss unit! I don't quite understand how that unit has become basically a baneling on steroids. Buffed dmg, hits air and ground, re-usable, free burrow and cheap...I fail to see the drawback? I feel as if the better iteration of it was when it was sacrificed upon attack, especially now that it's gotten a damage buff.
Terran don't need more early/mid-game strength vs Protoss with this unit. They're tier1 is GG as is vs Protoss, it's hard on the toss at those stages of the game as is. Everyone will agree that the strength of Terran tier1 is evident by the fact that they can work with those units ALL game.
All in all bot sure why Terran need more anti-toss strength in the early/mid game.
Terran never had incentive to build a single factory unit in WOL TvP. I think it's a good that they try to change that. The drawback of the mine is that it can be triggered by one unit running into range.
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Atrocious patch.
The mine now is just set and kill, skill involved reduced drastically.
They did the same thing with the Hellbat, turning a very interesting unit with consistent usages and drawbacks, into a retarded new roach (prolly the more stupid unit design wise in the game).
Wtf is wrong with them.
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I guess I am just going to switch to Protoss at release. Terran have to micro too much anyways, so a nice 1 A strategy will be nice for a change. Might spam T a few times too but depending on how many colossus I probably won't even have to.
User was warned for this post
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This is so funny because if you ask any of the high level protosses who are currently playing hots, they all say that terran is way stronger. So maybe blizzard is right with their wait-and-see attitude.
It's the same when people here say that blizzard needs to "fix" the swarm host... I don't know if they mean that it's too strong or too weak.
I don't think the widow mine change makes it OP, but it does completely shut down oracles, so they're basically saying: we don't want to see oracles in pvt anymore! and that I think is questionable approach.
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On February 08 2013 10:11 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone know how the Widow Mine's +shield damage is calculated? Does it pretty much instantly remove the 35 shields and then proceed to do it's damage? Because if it does it's payload and then does 35 shield damage ontop of it the only thing that effects are shots to Carriers and Colossus :/
That would make very little sense for them to do that, if it affected so few units as to only work on Protoss units with more than 125 shields, and it'd be counterintuitive to the new gamer, that the shield damage in most cases would be irrelevant. It has to be shield and then non-shield damage.
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On February 08 2013 12:30 HeeroFX wrote:
Late game TvP is so imbalanced that is the phase they should work on give T some kind of help....
While I do agree that Terran can use some help late game pvt, I was mainly talking about early/mid game. While I do mention that Terran use tier 1 all game long, and surely they do, is a testament to how strong those units are even in the early and mid game. Ill say it again, that fact makes me wonder why Terran need more strength early and mid game vs Protoss, their tier 1 is sufficiently strong as is, they don't need an anti-Protoss unit on top of their tier 1
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I only play mech (mid masters I guess?) so my opinion might be a little biased, but overall I feel both TvZ and TvP are balanced (for mech), and it generally comes down to who played better. There are a few things I feel could use a change however.
1) I feel hellbat drops aren't very hard to deal with, but then again I'm opening tank viking every game, so the hellbats never really get a chance to do any major damage. Since hellbats are pretty slow, generally the best strat I find is to just grab all your workers and just run around until the hellbats are cleaned up, but that can be much harder as zerg since early lings get absolutely demolished by hellbats. Thus, I think that perhaps removing hellbat bonus damage vs light would be an effective change, considering that they would then be doing sub 20 damage a shot (I think), thus they would have to get three shots off to kill a worker instead of two. To counter-act this so the unit it still as strong as it was before in the mid and late game, adding the blue flame bonus back onto the hellbat (which frankly would make the blue flame upgrade useful again) would probably be the best course of action, or maybe even just increasing the damage gains from armory upgrades. Personally I have never used this opening once, since I almost always prefer to take an early expansion over early harass, but I can see how it might be a little too strong against zergs. As for protoss, I imagine that stalkers deal with this pretty easily. If further changes are deemed to be needed, blizzard could make it so that the medivac reactor upgrade would have to be researched before the boosters are available. (Wasn't it this way previously? I can't remember.)
2) I feel like the oracle is too much of a coin-flip vs terran. Basically, if the stargate gets scouted, the terran builds two or three turrets and the oracle manages to maybe get a few scv kills and thats it. If the terran doesn't scout it, or is just under-prepared, basically the game is over right there since oracles can do such a ridiculous amount of damage. Perhaps the new damage of the widow mine will help prevent this, since it will one-shot oracles now, but I still think the oracle is flawed in design. Basically, the oracle is a harassment unit that is expensive and incredibly deadly, but does absolutely nothing in the mid or late game, because good players will almost always have anti-air at their expansions and in their base to prevent drops or warp prism harass etc. Since envision is simply an anti-cloak measure, and the other ability of the oracle is pretty much useless, the oracle essentially can't do anything for the rest of the game. Overall I feel that's a pretty boring unit for a spellcaster, so I would like to visit the original idea of oracles casting on minerals.
I'm not sure what the reasoning was for removing the mineral shields, perhaps it just wasn't strong enough or couldn't be balanced well enough, but I liked the idea. So why not have the oracle go back to harassing via the minerals, only instead of preventing mining, the oracle essentially drops a photon charge (or something like that) onto the minerals which would detonate after a few seconds, killing any nearby workers. This would definitely make the oracle much stronger in the mid and late game, where players have to keep track of much more than just their initial main and natural, and would also fit in with the blizzard stated goal of being a unit that rewards players with high multitask, in addition to just being much more fun to watch and utilize as a player. Obviously, the drawback is that the oracle is no longer an effective early game harassment unit, but there is a remedy for this as well. Considering that the first ability of the oracle is pretty much useless (does anyone even know what it's called?), I think removing it and and switching time warp off the mothership core and onto the oracle would provide it with another useful spell. This way, the oracle could still be used as a scout/harassment unit in the early game, by slowing down mining, similar to its original design. A 50% slow on a caster like the oracle might be a problem however(particularly in bio PvT), so decreasing the effect to perhaps 20%, and increasing the duration would probably be the best option.
3) I feel that the void ray is an unnecessary unit at this point, and should just be scrapped. In TvT late and mid game it's basically useless, since any decent terran will have scanned ahead and know what the protoss army composition is, and a mix of thors and vikings absolutely demolish void rays, due to the splash damage of thors and the tendency for void rays to clump. Supply wise, I feel that the tempest is a much more effective unit due to its range and health, and is just a better choice overall if a protoss is trying to use air units for support. Maybe tempests do a little too much damage to non-massive, but I don't believe its a major problem. Early game I feel void rays are just a cheesy unit, which protoss already has in the form of the dark templar. I don't know how void rays fare in PvZ and PvP, but it seems the consensus is that the unit is hard to deal with overall. Considering that protoss have the highest unit count out of all the races now, removing the void ray wouldn't be too big of a deal in my eyes, I just feel that the void ray doesn't have a clear role in the protoss army.
A quick aside, I would love to see blizzard replace corruptors with scourge, and have mutas morph into broods. Or alternatively, increase the speed of the corruptor, but make it a melee unit that attaches onto other flying units and colossi, and burns the shields/armor away with acid, which I think would make them much more interesting than what they are right now.
My apologies for the wall of text, but I wanted to provide some actual thoughts and solutions on the units I feel are the most problematic right now, instead of just yelling imba.
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It'll be interesting to see how Oracles fare in PvT. On the one hand, they just got a nice buff. On the other hand, Widow Mines now oneshot them.
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i like this patch. blizzard definitely knows what is up. they take a very unbiased view on balance, which is good.
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It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is?
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How about put that shield bonus on the tank! except against immortal shield ?? then tanks would be viable in TvP?
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On February 08 2013 10:12 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Cannot believe these changes are going through.
No idea what they're doing haha. I just don't understand why they're circumnavigating every fundamental issue with units and are focusing on the semantics to unit interaction. It's completely backwards. Hopefully they change this soon.. people still under the impression "It's only the beta". What they seem to be overlooking is the fact that the game releases in ~month and these balance issues will still be there. >.<
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On February 08 2013 13:30 Bayyne wrote:
It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is?
is EMP a new ability to you too?
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On February 08 2013 13:30 Bayyne wrote:
It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is?
So spore crawlers are also a poorly designed AA building since it is going to have +15 vs biologic. That is only one race as well. I think most people would agree it's always good to have some units like that, it lets you tune balance for a specific matchup instead of the WoL situation where any change has an effect on three matchups.
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On February 08 2013 11:27 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 11:05 Arco wrote:
I feel that people who complain that Skytoss is imba are the Zerg who just a-move their entire army into yours and expect to win. I second this.
I feel that people who say this are people who just want to turtle until they are maxxed out on tempests and high templar so that they have an army composition that is actually impossible to engage.
I joke... mostly. It's a difficult composition to deal with but something will come up.
In the meantime, something I find interesting is the number of tech options being moved to hatchery level. In early WoL, standard zerg play was getting gas before pool in virtually every matchup for speedlings. As time went on, that gas timing got delayed more and more - first it was hatch before pool versus Terran, then it was 14/16 against FFE, then it was 4-6 queens vs. T and 3rd base before gas vs. P... every iteration saw zerg taking gas later and later. The latest round of changes seem to be a ... gentle encouragement, let's say, for zerg players to play a bit differently. Where before there were 4 upgrades available before lair (speed + 3 evo upgrades) there are now 6... or if we take the evo upgrades out of the picture, we have 1 becoming 3. That's actually pretty significant; I can spend 300 gas on upgrades before I even start my lair now. Should I take the earlier gas and the later third hatch? I think perhaps there's still a key piece missing from the equation - the ability to hit air units on hatch tech with an offensive unit. I'm all for playing around with faster gas now, though. I hope it opens some possibilities up.
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On February 08 2013 13:37 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 13:30 Bayyne wrote:
It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is?
is EMP a new ability to you too?
What do you mean? EMP doesn't have a pronounced bonus effect versus anything, let alone an entire race.
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On February 08 2013 11:00 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
I don't get all of the hate, it isn't that bad. I like the carapace option being expanded in particular
you need 100/100 early on.
why would you spent on that just for scouting? it would come too way to scout for strong early rush and you have a much weaker defense against it because while you are getting gas, you are losing out on mineral income and thus less spines and queens can be made.
the worst part of the patch is that everyone had been saying it's not a patch that's needed. There are something more concerning to be looked at yet blizzard just go ahead anyway
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On February 08 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 11:00 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
I don't get all of the hate, it isn't that bad. I like the carapace option being expanded in particular you need 100/100 early on. why would you spent on that just for scouting? it would come too way to scout for strong early rush and you have a much weaker defense against it because while you are getting gas, you are losing out on mineral income and thus less spines and queens can be made. the worst part of the patch is that everyone had been saying it's not a patch that's needed. There are something more concerning to be looked at yet blizzard just go ahead anyway
You don't understand - you're saying "it isn't needed", when people SHOULD have said "it isn't good".
There was nothing specifically awful about the changes purposed, so they went through with them. Now they're looking at new changes.
They examine the game piecemeal sometimes, so when they say "here are our ideas for A, B, and C" and the community says "nerf X, Y, and Z", don't be surprised when they don't touch X, Y, and Z.
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On February 08 2013 12:11 LainRivers wrote:
All I can hear is 'waaaaaaah OP OP NERF'
You do realize it's all of your fault that WoL ended up a no rush 10min 200/200 game right? Nerf this nerf that...sooner or later NOTHING is good at anything anymore.
For fucks sake, just play the game and give criticism, not incessant bitching and complaining. The criticism doesn't even have to be constructive, my god.
If I was blizzard I'd completely 'ignore' you too. Yup, it might be a little crass but he is right. We need to chill out a little or we are going to end up with another broken game that has no variety. I said essentially the same thing in the other thread and all that happened was that some guy attacked me and tried comparing the hellbat to the 1-supply roach. We all need to take a little more time than a month to figure things out. I thought the new fast hydras were broken as hell but after like 20 games I figured it out. Same with turbo mutas.
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these last two patches have been soooo good im getting some sick nerdchills.
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On February 08 2013 12:29 FlukyS wrote:
This is not so much about the changes they brought in but they changes they didn't bring in. Zerg anti air is bad, hellbats and widow mines are too good, sky toss is too good. And then what they do is give us t1 faster overlords for a problem that isn't even there. Its frustrating how we have been complaining about all of this stuff for a long time and yet they seem to just not listen no matter how many players tell them they are doing it wrong.
feels nice doesnt it :D:D:D:D Remember the last 8 months of WoL terran and protoss complained all the time but blizz gave a fuck about them. Zerg dominating every big tournament and the only major games they lost are the ones where they fucked up builds or clumped bl infestor...
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I think HOTS beta is a lot more balanced than the wings beta ever was. 1 supply 2 armor roaches, 40 second warp gate research? We've came a long ways
We just need a hellbat nerf and possibly a hydra buff (I'm a big fan of giving them the range upgrade as default) and I think we're in good shape.
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On February 08 2013 13:42 Bayyne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 13:37 SuperYo1000 wrote:On February 08 2013 13:30 Bayyne wrote:
It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is?
is EMP a new ability to you too? What do you mean? EMP doesn't have a pronounced bonus effect versus anything, let alone an entire race.
removes up to 100 energy and 100 shields....Im pretty sure zerg/terran dont have shields
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Well, all these changes should help my RvAll (random vs all) matchups considerably! Yay for buffs!
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On February 08 2013 14:00 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 13:42 Bayyne wrote:On February 08 2013 13:37 SuperYo1000 wrote:On February 08 2013 13:30 Bayyne wrote:
It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is?
is EMP a new ability to you too? What do you mean? EMP doesn't have a pronounced bonus effect versus anything, let alone an entire race. removes up to 100 energy and 100 shields....Im pretty sure zerg/terran dont have shields
EMP is an ability and not an attack. There was no units with attacks that do bonus damage vs a race. This only shows how helpless the design team when having units do different damage vs different races especially that we already have a gazillion modifier like biological, psyonic, armored, light and massive which should really suffice. Maybe next thing we'll have every unit deal different amount of damage for every other unit in the game. I bet this would make balance much easier ...
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes.
Reminds me of late game zerg in WoL 
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Canada13389 Posts
Envision 60 seconds,
well there goes my DT expand PvP ive been enjoying
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On February 08 2013 14:12 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 14:00 SuperYo1000 wrote:On February 08 2013 13:42 Bayyne wrote:On February 08 2013 13:37 SuperYo1000 wrote:On February 08 2013 13:30 Bayyne wrote:
It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is?
is EMP a new ability to you too? What do you mean? EMP doesn't have a pronounced bonus effect versus anything, let alone an entire race. removes up to 100 energy and 100 shields....Im pretty sure zerg/terran dont have shields Maybe next thing we'll have every unit deal different amount of damage for every other unit in the game. I bet this would make balance much easier ...
Ofcourse It would, even tho' I agree armored, unarmored, biological, mechanical, psionic and now "shielded" is an inelegant solution to unit balance, the ability to adjust one specific unit's damage vs another specific unit's health is a very exact tool for game balance. If Blizzard wants to give Widow Mines, or preferably Siege Tanks, bonus damage vs shields then I think we should embrace this mechanic with open arms because unlike previous buffs, like removing the Siege tech upgrade, these buffs will have no affect on TvZ at all.
If you disregard the "ugliness" of the both, it's actually an interesting mechanic to implement and balance, because it's the first time a damage buff has only effected a partial % of a unit's total health.
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the feedback was almost negative only, but they don t care
blizzard you re stupid...
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On February 08 2013 10:54 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I like all these changes, but don't think they should stop here. Still think Tanks need a buff, still think Voids should lose their extended leash range, still think Tempests should cost more supply.
Definitely agree.
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The point of bonus damage to certain types is to have the same functionality of BW damage without everything being some unknown variable. All ranged units in BW dealt different amounts to different sizes of units.
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On February 08 2013 12:50 Baum wrote:
Terran never had incentive to build a single factory unit in WOL TvP. I think it's a good that they try to change that. The drawback of the mine is that it can be triggered by one unit running into range.
While I agree with u that Terran never really used the factory in wol pvt (and therefore needed incentive), my disagreement is the buff to the clearly anti-Protoss damage to the mine. I agree the mine is a good unit to give the Terran incentive to use the factory, the buff is what doesn't sit right with me. I thought it was fine and strong pre this patch, testing is needed for sure, but it seems now that it is verging on a bit OP.
I'm not sure if what u stated as the drawback is really a drawback at all. You don't lose the mine upon it being set off, if u did, like a baneling then I'm totally with you that that's the drawback.
Take the closest analog unit to the widow mine, the baneling, on the upside it's a moving mine, but the drawbacks are clear as it doesn't hit air and sacrifices itself upon detonation. Anything clear as that with the widow mine? I'm just not seeing it.
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lol alrite thats it. im not buying hots. blizzard has no clue with what the hell they are doing.. waste of money and waste of time.
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On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.
Standard Blizzard.
I think Widow Mine rushing is gonna be a lot stronger now that they can one shot Stalkers and Zealots early. Can't wait to get back to it...
Hellbats, Skytoss vs Zerg, Protoss vs Mech, Speed Medivacs... I think by community consensus that these things are all broken. They need to be addressed.
Putting Overlord Speed on the Hatch does nothing. Buffing the Widow Mine does nothing except make Widow Mine rushes stronger.
Standard.... Blizzard. Sigh.
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ok...dumb question maybe, but having read all 9 pages I couldn't find the answer and I don't have a beta to test this:
How does the widow mine effect Immortals? If the unstable payload is effected by hardened shields, then does the new damage change the total dealt?
Basically, I am wondering about the relationship of immortals to widow miens...if the mines CAN successfully defend tanks from immortals, I feel that mech would be much closer to viable...
anyoen clue me in? Please and thanks.
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I have only skimmed a few pages so forgive me if this has been mentioned already but I really like the overlord change and it is probably the best part of this patch.
My reasoning being that it helps early aggression vs T massively. You can now get overlords to the front of the Terran's base far more effectively which you can then sac in to tank the first volley from the window mines that would otherwise allow an incredibly greedy but also relatively safe opening.
Having all your initial ovies floating across the map is a pretty big tell that ling pressure is coming vs a mine opener.
The associated buff to scouting and expo denial with creep is nice but shouldn't be too significant as if you weren't intending to use them for a bust fast ovies aren't worth the early investment. It doesn't speed up drop tech either as you still need lair for ventral sacs and it is the much longer researching upgrade to boot.
The rest of the changes seem fairly meh. We all knew that fungal was gonna keep getting reamed so who cares? The spore buff is also obviously necessary in light the festy nerf.
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On February 08 2013 14:00 nomyx wrote:
I think HOTS beta is a lot more balanced than the wings beta ever was. 1 supply 2 armor roaches, 40 second warp gate research? We've came a long ways
We just need a hellbat nerf and possibly a hydra buff (I'm a big fan of giving them the range upgrade as default) and I think we're in good shape.
that's because one was a brand new game and one is an expansion that adds a few units,
It would be crazy if it wasn't more balanced that wol beta..
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Is there anyway to test these units without having to play an unranked game.. Is there any way I can find a unit tester ?
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Really disappointed about the mine buff. The general concept of a unit that only needs to fire once to be cost efficient is something that boggles my mind. It does one-shot stuff like stalkers and oracles now which is bonkers if you think about it. As a unit it is too cost efficient and comes way too early in the game. You can have mines out a good minute before a protoss can have his detection and their only mobile detection is prone to being sniped by a few vikings and a scan.
The problem might not be as present in 1vs1 as it is in 2vs2 games where the widowmine completely breakes some matchups and makes it almost impossible to punish terrans for their greedy play. Make a runby while he is moving out with his mech army? Nope. Maybe some air harass with an oracle, phoenix or mutas? Nope. They were already strong enough - or too strong in team matches. People complained about fungal being a spell that can literally end the game if one player wasn't paying attention for a split second. It's the exact same thing with the widowmine.
Disappointing that there is no nerf to either hellbat or the medivac booster which is a combination that simply is too powerful in its current state.
Glad that they didn't went for the tempest nerf. 9 DPS is already terrible for a 300/200 cost unit. When it comes to DPS per supply it is even worse than workers. Other 300/200 units deal around 40-50 dps, sometimes even as splash damage.
Besides, tempests need a decent support of voidrays to be really effective and those already took a supply nerf in the last patch.
Overlord speed... No idea why anyone would get that besides some very weird and funky strategies that wouldn't work in almost all cases.
Overall I have no idea what this patch was supposed to do. It fixed nothing and received mostly negative critics from their beta testers. Glad to hear that they really don't give a fuck. There's hoping though that the patch at least gets rid of some of the nasty exploits, bugs and performance issues.
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On February 08 2013 15:04 BBQSAC wrote:
I have only skimmed a few pages so forgive me if this has been mentioned already but I really like the overlord change and it is probably the best part of this patch.
My reasoning being that it helps early aggression vs T massively. You can now get overlords to the front of the Terran's base far more effectively which you can then sac in to tank the first volley from the window mines that would otherwise allow an incredibly greedy but also relatively safe opening.
Having all your initial ovies floating across the map is a pretty big tell that ling pressure is coming vs a mine opener.
The associated buff to scouting and expo denial with creep is nice but shouldn't be too significant as if you weren't intending to use them for a bust fast ovies aren't worth the early investment. It doesn't speed up drop tech either as you still need lair for ventral sacs and it is the much longer researching upgrade to boot.
The rest of the changes seem fairly meh. We all knew that fungal was gonna keep getting reamed so who cares? The spore buff is also obviously necessary in light the festy nerf.
No...that's unarguably wrong. If you're going to be aggressive you need units. And you need them fast. They are costly. If you think you can afford the upgrade you just don't realize what you could make instead, or how much earlier you could attack. The burrow upgrade might be useful in this situation because it makes your army a bit stronger (and even that one might be useless). But the OV speed upgrade... no way.
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United States7166 Posts
I'm getting this weird vibe, like deja vu from early WoL where zerg had the least new units and terran had the most new stuff, kinda jealous.Like all zergs new unit / modified units are all midgame units, their early game is nearly identical to WoL. Whereas it's common to see widow mine openings into hellbats with new rocket man medivacs and install siege mode tanks, immune to early timings. I'm happy for terrans to get new stuff, just feel like zerg is kinda getting shorthanded here. Burrow/speed overlords being possible earlier is something, but not quite the same and not as satisfying or versatile, with more niche uses. And they're kinda costly for early game, for limited utility.
It'd be nice if they threw us a bone, anything, in the early game for our units. Every game has the early game, but you won't always be able to access stuff like vipers/ultras. Oh right and protosses get mother ship core. Infestor pit + expensive unit that's worthless in small numbers isn't early, both hydra upgrades take a long time to get, and mutas are also a bit on the later side compared to the other stuff I mentioned.
Also about sky toss
You realize that their entire protoss expansion is new/improved air units right.. Mship core, oracle, void ray, phoenix, carrier, tempest. They're so reluctant to give a buff to antiair now, would not be a good way to promote Protoss in HotS. Heh they say that it's new, just wait and see with regards to the skytoss issue.. as if it's not obvious with how problematic vr/colo was until infestor was discovered as the only solution, fast forward to now where infestor has been repeatedly nerfed, air significantly buffed, all antiair unchanged except for a irrelevant speed boost on a unit that still melts to colo without any way to micro/position against that. And preventing skytoss from happening only harder than ever cus of mship core. Viper has some potential but is pure support,still need an adequate fighting unit.
Tbh I was hoping with the expansion being zerg centered, they'd be forced to come up with cool zerg concepts that mb could be added to competitive play, but alas no , it was the opposite and terrans got the most.. Reaper, tank, Thor, medivac, BC, raven all get new abilities/improvements..
Instead we keep getting several nerfs to the unit that was the cornerstone to defending the previously problematic vr/colo combo, which is now much more powerful than ever as are other similar air-centric deathballs. And we got an inadequate improvement, which requires yet another upgrade, on one of the crappiest units, yet fundamental in terms of the role they should have played, our ground anti air unit, the only mobile one we've ever had while the other races each have 3 now, not counting ghosts. We get cool buffs to 2 units at least, but nothing to both corruptor/overseer which they explicitly mentioned they wanted to improve/rework in previous interviews. Zerg's always had the least types of units in sc2, and the least inspiration. Kinda makes me sad to see that continued in Heart of the Swarm... an ironic title.
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On February 08 2013 15:04 Ironsights wrote:
ok...dumb question maybe, but having read all 9 pages I couldn't find the answer and I don't have a beta to test this:
How does the widow mine effect Immortals? If the unstable payload is effected by hardened shields, then does the new damage change the total dealt?
Basically, I am wondering about the relationship of immortals to widow miens...if the mines CAN successfully defend tanks from immortals, I feel that mech would be much closer to viable...
anyoen clue me in? Please and thanks.
The most straightforward result would be, the missile takes 35 shields off first, then does 125 damage after that. So, for an Immortal with more than 35 shields, it'd take 35 shield damage, then the Hardened Shields effect would kick in and it'd take 10 damage after that, for a total of 45 effective damage. For Immortals with 35 shields or less, the missile's shield bonus would wipe away the Immortal's remaining shields, and then the Immortal would take the 125 damage to HP, for a total of 125-160 effective damage, depending on remaining shields.
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well if you upgrade overlord speed like when your lair is morphing, you could create some creep paths on the map right when your lair finishes. Would help with certain rushes and such, i think zergs are jumping the gun and saying its useless before trying stuff out with it first.
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On February 08 2013 10:07 Ksi wrote:
The fact that Blizzard is now resorting to giving bonus damage vs very, very specific unit types seems like a step in the wrong direction for how they should approach balance. It seems a little too conservative in one sense (making mild damage buffs vs. specific targets rather than reworking the units as a whole), but also a bit too complicated in another sense. I'd really hate to see us 5 patches down the line with every unit having a bunch of extremely specific +damage modifiers.
Indeed. I too am disappointed to see that they have resorted to specialise certain units against other very specific units just to achieve balance.
Gone are the days when there were just attack types, shared amongst all races. It achieved such a marvelous state of balance that the word "hard' counter rarely existed. It was wholly upon the player's ability to bring his control group of units to victory, rather than relying on a very specific unit to deal with another specific unit.
This is no longer the Starcraft I knew.
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On February 08 2013 15:31 mongoose22 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 15:04 Ironsights wrote:
ok...dumb question maybe, but having read all 9 pages I couldn't find the answer and I don't have a beta to test this:
How does the widow mine effect Immortals? If the unstable payload is effected by hardened shields, then does the new damage change the total dealt?
Basically, I am wondering about the relationship of immortals to widow miens...if the mines CAN successfully defend tanks from immortals, I feel that mech would be much closer to viable...
anyoen clue me in? Please and thanks. The most straightforward result would be, the missile takes 35 shields off first, then does 125 damage after that. So, for an Immortal with more than 35 shields, it'd take 35 shield damage, then the Hardened Shields effect would kick in and it'd take 10 damage after that, for a total of 45 effective damage. For Immortals with 35 shields or less, the missile's shield bonus would wipe away the Immortal's remaining shields, and then the Immortal would take the 125 damage to HP, for a total of 125-160 effective damage, depending on remaining shields.
That is actually not correct. The widow mine bypass the immortal's shields.
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On February 08 2013 15:24 Zelniq wrote:
I'm getting this weird vibe, like deja vu from early WoL where zerg had the least new units and terrain had the most new stuff. Like all zergs new unit / modified units are all midgame units, their early game is nearly identical to WoL. Whereas it's common to see widow mine openings into hellbats with new rocket man medivacs and install siege mode tanks, immune to early timings. I'm happy for terrans to get new stuff, just feel like zerg is kinda getting shorthanded here. Burrow/speed overlords being possible earlier is something, but not quite the same and not as satisfying or versatile, with more niche uses. And they're kinda costly for early game, for limited utility. It'd be nice if they threw us a bone, anything, in the early game for our units. Oh and protosses get mother ship core.. and oracles are borderline quick. Infestor pit + expensive unit that's worthless in small numbers doesn't quite cut it, and hydra upgrades take a long time to get, as well as mutas are also a bit on the later side compared to say hell bats/oracles/medivacs, and obviously the mship core/widow mines/reapers.
I don't think that's entirely true. We get 2 early Lair units (Swarm Hosts and Hydras) that I think will turn out to be decently strong. And the late game composition is easier to tech to as well (and cheaper). The way I see it, we can't get the same economy in HotS compare to WoL, but we also don't need it as much.
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I think the widow mine change is actually really good, it makes mech somewhat more viable against archons, zealots, and immortals (does it take 35 off the hardened sheild...!?!?)
The other changes are good too, for once I think they moved in the right direction (not a big enough step though if you ask me)
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I believe it is time for the upgrade cost of several Overlord enhancements to be reduced. It would be too high of an investment that early on in the game to attain both Overlord Speed and Burrow or Ventral Sacs for an early overlord drop tactic or a strange build with scouting overlord + burrow roach.
So long as the cost isn't reduced, the risk of opting for these enhancements would outweigh the benefits.
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On February 08 2013 15:24 Zelniq wrote:
I'm getting this weird vibe, like deja vu from early WoL where zerg had the least new units and terrain had the most new stuff. Like all zergs new unit / modified units are all midgame units, their early game is nearly identical to WoL. Whereas it's common to see widow mine openings into hellbats with new rocket man medivacs and install siege mode tanks, immune to early timings. I'm happy for terrans to get new stuff, just feel like zerg is kinda getting shorthanded here. Burrow/speed overlords being possible earlier is something, but not quite the same and not as satisfying or versatile, with more niche uses. And they're kinda costly for early game, for limited utility. It'd be nice if they threw us a bone, anything, in the early game for our units. Oh and protosses get mother ship core.. and oracles are borderline quick. Infestor pit + expensive unit that's worthless in small numbers doesn't quite cut it, and hydra upgrades take a long time to get, as well as mutas are also a bit on the later side compared to say hell bats/oracles/medivacs, and obviously the mship core/widow mines/reapers.
While I completely agree that I get the same feeling, and I hope to get something for our early game too. Even if it's something minor, just for our combat capabilities. The things that have gave our early game seem... strange... that they would choose burrow and overlord speed. Especially since sacrificing lair or queens early enough to make real usage of that is a big sacrifice.
But I also feel slightly disappointed that basically every upgrade we got to our race was reminiscent of something that was lost in transition from BW to SC2. Hydra speed, strong Ultralisks, blinding cloud, a burrowed siege unit... all things players felt we should have had in original SC2. As a faithful Zerg player since SC1, none of this feels "new"... just feels like things that were missing all along.
I would be 100% happy if they just tweaked Hydras upgrades a bit. I don't think Hydras need to be "stronger", but requiring 2 upgrades to their functionality for them to be useful is more than any other unit in the game. Other units with 2 upgrades typically have 1 for functionality (marines stim, roach speed) and then the 2nd upgrade is a stat increase or quality of life increase. As it stands, Hydra literally don't work off creep vs the majority of units without both upgrades...
Don't get me wrong, I'm happier now than I was in WoL because I feel we got things that were missing. But now all that's missing is our early game is a shadow of our BW selves, on top of the fact that we have more vulnerabilities early-mid game with AA/detection/economy/etc.
On February 08 2013 15:49 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 15:24 Zelniq wrote:
I'm getting this weird vibe, like deja vu from early WoL where zerg had the least new units and terrain had the most new stuff. Like all zergs new unit / modified units are all midgame units, their early game is nearly identical to WoL. Whereas it's common to see widow mine openings into hellbats with new rocket man medivacs and install siege mode tanks, immune to early timings. I'm happy for terrans to get new stuff, just feel like zerg is kinda getting shorthanded here. Burrow/speed overlords being possible earlier is something, but not quite the same and not as satisfying or versatile, with more niche uses. And they're kinda costly for early game, for limited utility. It'd be nice if they threw us a bone, anything, in the early game for our units. Oh and protosses get mother ship core.. and oracles are borderline quick. Infestor pit + expensive unit that's worthless in small numbers doesn't quite cut it, and hydra upgrades take a long time to get, as well as mutas are also a bit on the later side compared to say hell bats/oracles/medivacs, and obviously the mship core/widow mines/reapers. I don't think that's entirely true. We get 2 early Lair units (Swarm Hosts and Hydras) that I think will turn out to be decently strong. And the late game composition is easier to tech to as well (and cheaper). The way I see it, we can't get the same economy in HotS compare to WoL, but we also don't need it as much.
If you tech to use either of the two units you listed, it's not easier nor cheaper to tech to late game. Even without those units, it's not really cheaper and easier to tech to late game. How do you figure?
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I do not understand why hellbats have not been nerfed. Hellbat drops are just ridiculous and make early game tvt just silly.
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On February 08 2013 16:04 rQdjay wrote:
I do not understand why hellbats have not been nerfed. Hellbat drops are just ridiculous and make early game tvt just silly.
Yeah. They nerfed BF hellions due to TvT back in 2011. Now, they add a steroid version of it at a similar timing... It seems like instead of try to fix T3 terran, they are giving terran more pressure options. The only problem I see is that it is very hard to balance. Either we have the terran harass being OP'ed and terrans dominate (mid/late 2011) or other races get buffs so the harass no longer works and terran are just no as good in the late game (TvZ late 2012).
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Random changes..
I can't help but feel that these changes don't adress any of the issues in a good way.
I don't think zergs will stick on hatch tech for that long anyways...
Oh well here's me hoping it at least changes this 3base turtle bullshit <3
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We are ending up with roach-hellion and mini nuke mines just so Blizzard doesn't have to buff Siege Tanks. You have to give it to them though, in spite of overwhelming criticism they are sticking to their guns. My problem with this design is that forcing Tanks to always ALWAYS have a lot of shit around them just to function, promotes death ball play.
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Maybe this is intentional (i'm assuming you can speed up also) so you don't have to regame when you have the wrong game speed? Idk would be kind of confusing anyway if it was used during a game.
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do you guys notice that oracle is a one-shot now for widow mines?
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Does anybody else think Hellbats could be re-balanced by removing Medivac thrusters and the Bio tag? At the very least, Medivac thrusters have failed to enoucrage mass Medivac drop and have exascerbated the lone Medivac drop. Perhaps it's possible that the Medivac's interaction with the Hellbat is what is making the Hellbat overpowered and Hellbat drops could be brought back into line if they weren't rocketed into the opponent's base and then healed endlessly vs Zerglings.
I'm also kind of curious of whether or not people are still geting Blue Flame upgrades now that getting an Armory both advances your tech to upgrades, Battlehellions and Thors with all of your previous Hellions getting a damage boost by becoming Battlehellions by default. Maybe the Battlehellion transformation should replace the Blue Flame upgrade so Terrans can't just build an Armory and get access to upgrades and 2 more units so easily?
So in short, is the Hellbat inherently OP, or are Medivac boosters, the Bio tag and the access at Armory the real problem? I think ZvT would greatly benefit from both the Siege Tank and the Battlehellion transformation being researched upgrade, that way they'd compete against each other for which upgrade you should get first instead of getting free Siege tech and bonus Battlehellions on your way to upgrades and Thors ... it's a bit much. It'd also add in the benefit of having less retarded ways to roast an entire Drone line, I mean do Terrans really need Blue Flame Hellions and Widow Mines to instantly wipe a worker .line?
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On February 08 2013 15:21 Nezgar wrote:
Really disappointed about the mine buff. The general concept of a unit that only needs to fire once to be cost efficient is something that boggles my mind. It does one-shot stuff like stalkers and oracles now which is bonkers if you think about it. As a unit it is too cost efficient and comes way too early in the game. You can have mines out a good minute before a protoss can have his detection and their only mobile detection is prone to being sniped by a few vikings and a scan.
The problem might not be as present in 1vs1 as it is in 2vs2 games where the widowmine completely breakes some matchups and makes it almost impossible to punish terrans for their greedy play. Make a runby while he is moving out with his mech army? Nope. Maybe some air harass with an oracle, phoenix or mutas? Nope. They were already strong enough - or too strong in team matches. People complained about fungal being a spell that can literally end the game if one player wasn't paying attention for a split second. It's the exact same thing with the widowmine.
Disappointing that there is no nerf to either hellbat or the medivac booster which is a combination that simply is too powerful in its current state.
Glad that they didn't went for the tempest nerf. 9 DPS is already terrible for a 300/200 cost unit. When it comes to DPS per supply it is even worse than workers. Other 300/200 units deal around 40-50 dps, sometimes even as splash damage.
Besides, tempests need a decent support of voidrays to be really effective and those already took a supply nerf in the last patch.
Overlord speed... No idea why anyone would get that besides some very weird and funky strategies that wouldn't work in almost all cases.
Overall I have no idea what this patch was supposed to do. It fixed nothing and received mostly negative critics from their beta testers. Glad to hear that they really don't give a fuck. There's hoping though that the patch at least gets rid of some of the nasty exploits, bugs and performance issues.
Tempests have 15 range. Just let that fact sink into your head. This is true 15 range without any need to siege up. If their dps is any higher they would be utterly broken. In fact their dps should be nerfed. Right now tempests are already ridiculous. The only counters are corruptors and vikings and those get wrecked by storms. Not to mention that tempests have ridiculous amount of hp for a 4 supply unit, build rapidly, and absolutely destroy Terran and Zerg capital ships. Tempest/templar is far harder to deal with than broodlord infestor was. Mark my words, blizzard will nerf this unit in the next few months.
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Really wish I understood the logic behind overlord speed at tier 1... Makes ZERO sense.
If drops were tier 1 however.....
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I play T and i like this patch... mostly.
I feel that they should buff static defenses in general. Now with Oracles, drops and mutas, static defenses are much more important than they were in WOL and in HOTS they are a bit underpowered: a spore or a turret for example dies too fast vs skytos.
Maybe now there are too powerful tools for harrasment.
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On February 08 2013 16:36 sagefreke wrote:
Really wish I understood the logic behind overlord speed at tier 1... Makes ZERO sense.
If drops were tier 1 however.....
Well, you need both upgrades for drops to be really viable. This means drops can be out about a minute earlier, and not so much later than the other races that they aren't worth them most the time (as was the case in WoL).
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On February 08 2013 16:01 Spyridon wrote:
If you tech to use either of the two units you listed, it's not easier nor cheaper to tech to late game. Even without those units, it's not really cheaper and easier to tech to late game. How do you figure?
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. What I meant is that your late game composition will be cheaper, and quicker to get. Instead of getting a billion infestors, or broodlords that take ages to tech to, you get a few vipers, or a few ultras, supporting a (mostly) mid-game army. Both units are very easy to get, and relatively cheap (and effective in low numbers).
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They say they don't want so much muta in ZvZ and then they nerf fungal? Fungal was the only reason not 100% of zergs where going mutas. Now muta play in ZvZ will increase that's for sure.
Other changes are so useless. Why would anyone ever research ovie speed, if you can better invest into Lair and soon will have overseer anyways without wasted 100/100.
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On February 08 2013 16:39 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 16:36 sagefreke wrote:
Really wish I understood the logic behind overlord speed at tier 1... Makes ZERO sense.
If drops were tier 1 however..... Well, you need both upgrades for drops to be really viable. This means drops can be out about a minute earlier, and not so much later than the other races that they aren't worth them most the time (as was the case in WoL).
No, you can research both at the same time in WoL. And drop takes longer anyway. This makes no difference.
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Cool, even more use for the widow mine.
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On February 08 2013 10:18 DemigodcelpH wrote:My question is why wasn't the +shield damage given to the tank? The tank is (should be) the core, and not the Widow Mine. Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:23 Rance wrote:
They should've added a +dmg vs shield upgrade for the siege tank since every toss unit counters them
Easy.
If they give it to tank you can bet that the widow mine won't see the daylight anymore than for a couple of early defensive purposes. And even those cases it can be argued that the widow mine is not needed.
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I haven't played much HOTS beta, so I can't comment on how this affects the metagame, but from a spectator's point of view, the +dmg to shields on Widow Mine and +dmg to bio on Spore Crawlers seem to make the units needlessly complicated. I hope it'll work out.
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Well needed buffs to the widow mine. Now Blizzard should reduce the supply of the widow mine to 1 and reduce the build/reload time to 20 seconds.
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So envision is the one which just grants detection for oracle, or it's the one which can be casted on enemy units and gives vision of those units?
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On February 08 2013 16:42 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 16:01 Spyridon wrote:
If you tech to use either of the two units you listed, it's not easier nor cheaper to tech to late game. Even without those units, it's not really cheaper and easier to tech to late game. How do you figure? Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. What I meant is that your late game composition will be cheaper, and quicker to get. Instead of getting a billion infestors, or broodlords that take ages to tech to, you get a few vipers, or a few ultras, supporting a (mostly) mid-game army. Both units are very easy to get, and relatively cheap (and effective in low numbers).
This was discussed a bit earlier, or maybe in the old post. But the problem with that is while being cost effective, neither Hydras nor Swarm Host are supply effective. SH aren't very effective in low numbers either.
It's better to try to fill up supply mid-game with the cheaper army if you are able to bank enough resources to make a next wave of T3 units as soon as they die.
On February 08 2013 16:43 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 16:39 Spyridon wrote:On February 08 2013 16:36 sagefreke wrote:
Really wish I understood the logic behind overlord speed at tier 1... Makes ZERO sense.
If drops were tier 1 however..... Well, you need both upgrades for drops to be really viable. This means drops can be out about a minute earlier, and not so much later than the other races that they aren't worth them most the time (as was the case in WoL). No, you can research both at the same time in WoL. And drop takes longer anyway. This makes no difference.
You can't research both at the same time until T2. If you go with a general Zerg build order you can now start the first upgrade while the lair is researching, and start the drop upgrade as soon as lair finishes.
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Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health?
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On February 08 2013 17:05 Spyridon wrote:
You can't research both at the same time until T2. If you go with a general Zerg build order you can now start the first upgrade while the lair is researching, and start the drop upgrade as soon as lair finishes.
You can start at the same time on separate hatcheries as soon as lair finished. You haven't played a zerg at all it seems.
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On February 08 2013 16:36 sagefreke wrote:
Really wish I understood the logic behind overlord speed at tier 1... Makes ZERO sense.
If drops were tier 1 however.....
It means, that if you go for ov drops after going lair, you can research both at the same time. And that without drops being available on hatch tech.
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On February 08 2013 17:11 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 16:36 sagefreke wrote:
Really wish I understood the logic behind overlord speed at tier 1... Makes ZERO sense.
If drops were tier 1 however..... It means, that if you go for ov drops after going lair, you can research both at the same time. And that without drops being available on hatch tech.
It does not make any difference at all. Even in Wol, you can research drops and speed at the same time after lair finished..
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People crying about needed change for tank+shield dmg and oracles, but not about hellbat or one shoting widow mines... some terrans are such a whiny bitches nowadays :-|
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Wow i really need to start playing this beta!
So many whiners in the HOTs threads, I can't wait to come and bash you!
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What the fuck people? So many whiners? HotS is way better than WoL like it's no brainer.. I guess people will ALWAYS complain, my god..
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On February 08 2013 17:35 Everlong wrote:
What the fuck people? So many whiners? HotS is way better than WoL like it's no brainer.. I guess people will ALWAYS complain, my god..
That is like a rule on the internet, isn't it? so many different people, so many different interpretations of reality
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I greatly enjoy HOTS and haven't touched WOL in a couple months but I'm kinda scratching my head about the Overlord speed change. Will it really make that big of a difference? It wasn't really hard to scout any crucial timings before as Zerg pre-Lair. Just sack the overlord. Even now I still might prefer to sack the overlord rather than spending 100 gas for Overlord speed that early in the game.
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Because Terran really needed more buffs... I literally can't even begin to understand the mine buff
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On February 08 2013 16:30 MoonCricket wrote:
Does anybody else think Hellbats could be re-balanced by removing Medivac thrusters and the Bio tag? At the very least, Medivac thrusters have failed to enoucrage mass Medivac drop and have exascerbated the lone Medivac drop. Perhaps it's possible that the Medivac's interaction with the Hellbat is what is making the Hellbat overpowered and Hellbat drops could be brought back into line if they weren't rocketed into the opponent's base and then healed endlessly vs Zerglings.
I'm also kind of curious of whether or not people are still geting Blue Flame upgrades now that getting an Armory both advances your tech to upgrades, Battlehellions and Thors with all of your previous Hellions getting a damage boost by becoming Battlehellions by default. Maybe the Battlehellion transformation should replace the Blue Flame upgrade so Terrans can't just build an Armory and get access to upgrades and 2 more units so easily?
So in short, is the Hellbat inherently OP, or are Medivac boosters, the Bio tag and the access at Armory the real problem? I think ZvT would greatly benefit from both the Siege Tank and the Battlehellion transformation being researched upgrade, that way they'd compete against each other for which upgrade you should get first instead of getting free Siege tech and bonus Battlehellions on your way to upgrades and Thors ... it's a bit much. It'd also add in the benefit of having less retarded ways to roast an entire Drone line, I mean do Terrans really need Blue Flame Hellions and Widow Mines to instantly wipe a worker .line?
If the blue flame upgrade did affect hellbats and their attack was consequently made weaker early game, early game hellbat-centric strategies wouldn't be so strong. Blue flame upgrade not affecting battle hellions doesn't really make sense anyway- why would an upgrade affect a unit but not its transformation?
I think medivac thrusters should have some sort of drawback. If it drained energy whenever the ability was active, it wouldn't be as strong and ubiquitously used. Hellbats probably shouldn't be bio units, it doesn't really make sense for a unit that evolves from hellions. Additionally, healing makes for some very strong allins, but doesn't have as much of an effect in the mid to late game, because hellbats can't really be microed away from damage to regenerate like bio units can with storm dodging, kiting, etc.
If thrusters cost energy and hellbats were not bio units, hellbat drops would occupy a more unique place in the metagame because medivacs could move faster for longer, not consuming energy from healing hellbats, while hellbats would not benefit from regeneration but would still represent an enormous threat due to their ability to quickly evaporate worker lines.
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On February 08 2013 17:35 Everlong wrote:
What the fuck people? So many whiners? HotS is way better than WoL like it's no brainer.. I guess people will ALWAYS complain, my god..
Game is not balanced at all, why community should be quiet?
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On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health?
Probe
Zealot
Sentry
Stalker
High Templar
Dark Templar
Oracle
Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss
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The only good change is that of the widow mine.
Zerg cahnges are lame, and ovi speed makes no sense. For oracle, 60 sec is too long.
I guess we'll see one or two more patches before the end of the beta.
So I guess it's time to take care of helbats and zerg aa next patch.
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On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss
Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling...
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss
This is too much. Oracles, High Templar especially. That thing is too strong especially since protoss detection is extremely fragile. You can just scan observers and keep oracles away with marines. That's just insane. How do you break a siege line with widow mines and mass MMM?
Protoss units are too expensive to be one-shotted by anything that's not a T3 ability like Yamato cannon.
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On February 08 2013 17:49 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling...
Thats true, everyone knows that P dont have any detection against wm right? ¬¬. Maybe is insane if you throw your army blindly into a turtling T. If T play def, P can get map control and then go for the death ball that almos every T fears.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 17:55 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:49 baldgye wrote:On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling... Thats true, everyone knows that P dont have any detection against wm right? ¬¬. Maybe is insane if you throw your army blindly into a turtling T. If T play def, P can get map control and then go for the death ball that almos every T fears.
What detection do you mean? Observers that can be scanned or oracles that melt to the standard terran unit, the marine?
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This means that Widow Mines 2-shot Immortals now, instead of 3-shotting them like they used to, correct? Scary.
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Austria24417 Posts
HOW do you defend a widow mine/marine 1 base all in.
This is fucking insane
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On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss.
Maybe they don't only count the numbers of opinions, but also look on the reasoning.
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On February 08 2013 17:53 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss This is too much. Oracles, High Templar especially. That thing is too strong especially since protoss detection is extremely fragile. You can just scan observers and keep oracles away with marines. That's just insane. How do you break a siege line with widow mines and mass MMM?
Are you really scared of Widow Mines? They are only 5!!! range man! Orcales give Detection as well as Observers.No decent P will go out without 1-2 Observers and If you want to break siege lines try this: Archon/Immortal/Collosi/Obs.You will see how easy is and if that doesnt works for you go Sky Toss.Siege Lines and Widow Mines will not even touch your units...
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 17:58 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:53 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss This is too much. Oracles, High Templar especially. That thing is too strong especially since protoss detection is extremely fragile. You can just scan observers and keep oracles away with marines. That's just insane. How do you break a siege line with widow mines and mass MMM? Are you really scared of Widow Mines? They are only 5!!! range man! Orcales give Detection as well as Observers.No decent P will go out without 1-2 Observers and If you want to break siege lines try this: Archon/Immortal/Collosi/Obs.You will see how easy is and if that doesnt works for you go Sky Toss.Siege Lines and Widow Mines will not even touch your units...
The widow mine can easily be made off one base. You're saying a MASS T3 army is needed to break this. Doesn't something seem off to you?
This is a 100% step in the wrong direction. Protoss gateway units are supposed to be stronger, not made completely fucking useless...
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The issue isn't any all-in, that's easy to stop; the problem is maxed out Mech armies are actually REALLY GOOD against Protoss; Hellbats wreck Immortals and Widow Mines 3-shot Archons and 2-shot Immortals. Not to mention Thors are really good . . . if it weren't for Void Rays being overpowered, Protoss would be literally unable to win this matchup. Hopefully if they nerf Void Rays, they also fix Widow Mines and Hellbats . . .
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On February 08 2013 17:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:
HOW do you defend a widow mine/marine 1 base all in.
This is fucking insane
mothershipcore is the answer
i like the patch. i see what they are trying to do. but if they wouldnt try to avoid making tanks a useable unit in tvp we could skip all these little tweaks and have a better game pretty soon.
also: protoss air should be fixed fast. jsut get rid of the voidray. its a bad unit with a even worse design
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On February 08 2013 17:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:
HOW do you defend a widow mine/marine 1 base all in.
This is fucking insane
I imagine nexus cannon + gateway units will do fine with maybe a cannon or 2 for detection. No idea how long it takes to get a robo and get detection that way, but I don't see that being overpowered.
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On February 08 2013 17:55 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:49 baldgye wrote:On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling... Thats true, everyone knows that P dont have any detection against wm right? ¬¬. Maybe is insane if you throw your army blindly into a turtling T. If T play def, P can get map control and then go for the death ball that almos every T fears.
What are you talking about?
Remember oricals? Remember how they are suppose to be a way for Protoss to harass? How are you suppose to harass when Terran can reactor out a single unit to shut them down instantally and it's burrowed so you have no idea if its there and where it is, without using detection first, which uses up energy...
Not only that but mines + bio are insane you can't engage without in being a horrible trade and now it's even worse... And no it's not realistic to build a bunch of obs and go scouting round the map with stalkers picking them off if your playing against someone with a brain
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51478 Posts
Holy shit 30 damage per shot on Muti 0.O rofl madness xD
Going be interesting how much stronger widow mines are now vs 'toss
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On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss
It looks so insanely cost efficient. All widow mine needs to do is one shot any of those units (except probe) and it's already payed for its price. Not to mention AoE damage and later kills after cooldown.
I feel like widow mine should cost 50/25 and be single use only just like in BW. Now its damage is much higher than baneling's, auto-tracks target, attacks air, and is not even kamikaze unit, all of that for 75/25.
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On February 08 2013 17:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:
HOW do you defend a widow mine/marine 1 base all in.
This is fucking insane
Oracle+Stalker or Stalker/Sentry.If you forgot there is the Planetary NExus with ONLY 13!!! range...
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On February 08 2013 17:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:
HOW do you defend a widow mine/marine 1 base all in.
This is fucking insane I imagine nexus cannon + gateway units will do fine with maybe a cannon or 2 for detection. No idea how long it takes to get a robo and get detection that way, but I don't see that being overpowered.
You could delay him out on the map just kite'ing with stalkers, for like forever, so yah it shouldnt be a problem
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I wonder when they will rebuff it's burrow time again to a second... That was pretty balanced, you could literally loose your entire mineral line in a second to a single unit. Wonder why that go patched out? Can't wait to see that again
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On February 08 2013 17:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:55 drkcid wrote:On February 08 2013 17:49 baldgye wrote:On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling... Thats true, everyone knows that P dont have any detection against wm right? ¬¬. Maybe is insane if you throw your army blindly into a turtling T. If T play def, P can get map control and then go for the death ball that almos every T fears. What detection do you mean? Observers that can be scanned or oracles that melt to the standard terran unit, the marine?
Observer range 11 vs WM 7 and marine 6 so unless you micro your observer really bad or really far away from you units I dont see a big deal about WM. Calm down, when P players get used to WM you will see that the unit is not OP.
And oracles doesnt melt that fast against marines (in low numbers) and they are fast.
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On February 08 2013 17:59 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:55 drkcid wrote:On February 08 2013 17:49 baldgye wrote:On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling... Thats true, everyone knows that P dont have any detection against wm right? ¬¬. Maybe is insane if you throw your army blindly into a turtling T. If T play def, P can get map control and then go for the death ball that almos every T fears. What are you talking about? Remember oricals? Remember how they are suppose to be a way for Protoss to harass? How are you suppose to harass when Terran can reactor out a single unit to shut them down instantally and it's burrowed so you have no idea if its there and where it is, without using detection first, which uses up energy... Not only that but mines + bio are insane you can't engage without in being a horrible trade and now it's even worse... And no it's not realistic to build a bunch of obs and go scouting round the map with stalkers picking them off if your playing against someone with a brain
You remember Factory???There are built the Widow Mines.They cost 2 supply and 25 gas.Terran should open with gas if want to have them,so no economic advantage and to be safe you need lot of them,while the P can easy go for 1gate FE because of the MScore and the Planetary Nexus.
Why are bio+mines insane?Your Collosi cant shoot mines?You got no Observers in your army?Collosi outrange mine by 4 so wtf?You dont need to go all the map arround.Just keep your observers with your main army and you will kill lot of useless mines in your way to kill the Terran
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Depends on your build; if I go stargate, I try to open with Phoenix > Oracle > Oracle and move up with Stalkers and have the Phoenix lift the first Widow mine, send 1 Oracle to harass workers and the 2nd stay for detection if he gets to burrow one; if Robo, you just have to let probes or Zealots tank widow mine shots and use observers/MSC/Stalkers to fight. Widow mine 1-shots anything early game except Immortal (2-shot), so it's best to just go in with the cheapest units you have to tank the shots. They take forever to re-arm, so a few widow mines isn't necessarily a big deal. It's lategame when they are hell on earth, killing 15 Immortals in 3 seconds.
@ The guy above me: They are talking about rushes and pushes involving Widow Mines. Colossi are way too late for the scenarios they are describing.
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On February 08 2013 18:06 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 17:55 drkcid wrote:On February 08 2013 17:49 baldgye wrote:On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling... Thats true, everyone knows that P dont have any detection against wm right? ¬¬. Maybe is insane if you throw your army blindly into a turtling T. If T play def, P can get map control and then go for the death ball that almos every T fears. What detection do you mean? Observers that can be scanned or oracles that melt to the standard terran unit, the marine? Observer range 11 vs WM 7 and marine 6 so unless you micro your observer really bad or really far away from you units I dont see a big deal about WM. Calm down, when P players get used to WM you will see that the unit is not OP. And oracles doesnt melt that fast against marines (in low numbers) and they are fast.
WM got 5 range as well as marine...
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On February 08 2013 17:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:
HOW do you defend a widow mine/marine 1 base all in.
This is fucking insane
Stop throwing random stuff at people screaming it's fucking insane, ok?!?
You know what is fucking insane? You scout 2 gases from Protoss and you absolutely have to build ebay + at least 2 turrets. Then, Protoss, knowing you have to do this in order to stay alive, goes ahead and expands and you are fucked...
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It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well.
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I love the overlord speed. So much easier to scout!
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On February 08 2013 18:07 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:06 drkcid wrote:On February 08 2013 17:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 17:55 drkcid wrote:On February 08 2013 17:49 baldgye wrote:On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling... Thats true, everyone knows that P dont have any detection against wm right? ¬¬. Maybe is insane if you throw your army blindly into a turtling T. If T play def, P can get map control and then go for the death ball that almos every T fears. What detection do you mean? Observers that can be scanned or oracles that melt to the standard terran unit, the marine? Observer range 11 vs WM 7 and marine 6 so unless you micro your observer really bad or really far away from you units I dont see a big deal about WM. Calm down, when P players get used to WM you will see that the unit is not OP. And oracles doesnt melt that fast against marines (in low numbers) and they are fast. WM got 5 range as well as marine...
Epic fail! xD yes I saw sight range sorry.
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Austria24417 Posts
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF
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On February 08 2013 18:06 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:59 baldgye wrote:On February 08 2013 17:55 drkcid wrote:On February 08 2013 17:49 baldgye wrote:On February 08 2013 17:46 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 17:07 Everlong wrote:
Could anyone make a list what Protoss units widow does mine 1-shots now? Or perhraps just tell me where is the list of Protoss units with health? Probe Zealot Sentry Stalker High Templar Dark Templar Oracle Phoenix and MScore are left with few HP.As we see,no need for turrets now in early game to defend Oracle harass if you go for factory play.I wish mines were only 1 supply,because they arent good late game and to leave them wherever losing 2 supply is too much.Nice patch for Terran.Now I hope Blizz fix the Tanks and SkyToss Nice patch? More like insane buff... With no siege mode tech and no with super powered mine again there is going to be no way to attack a Terran who's turtling... Thats true, everyone knows that P dont have any detection against wm right? ¬¬. Maybe is insane if you throw your army blindly into a turtling T. If T play def, P can get map control and then go for the death ball that almos every T fears. What are you talking about? Remember oricals? Remember how they are suppose to be a way for Protoss to harass? How are you suppose to harass when Terran can reactor out a single unit to shut them down instantally and it's burrowed so you have no idea if its there and where it is, without using detection first, which uses up energy... Not only that but mines + bio are insane you can't engage without in being a horrible trade and now it's even worse... And no it's not realistic to build a bunch of obs and go scouting round the map with stalkers picking them off if your playing against someone with a brain You remember Factory???There are built the Widow Mines.They cost 2 supply and 25 gas.Terran should open with gas if want to have them,so no economic advantage and to be safe you need lot of them,while the P can easy go for 1gate FE because of the MScore and the Planetary Nexus. Why are bio+mines insane?Your Collosi cant shoot mines?You got no Observers in your army?Collosi outrange mine by 4 so wtf?You dont need to go all the map arround.Just keep your observers with your main army and you will kill lot of useless mines in your way to kill the Terran
You should play the beta more, it's really pretty simple why mines are already really good, you don't have to rush them either you can do the standard broken super fast (at no cost) medivac helion drop, loose nothing and build two mines at your ramp, and without a robo or stargate I can't attack without loosing sentries and stalkers, both of which cost more than a mine.
Mines where good before the buff, and now they are just broken. I can't wait for actually terrans to start playing hots so it can actually be balanced instead of just buffing everything Terran because (bo-ho) mech is harder to build than bio...
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On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well.
It's not.
In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions.
Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this.
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What the fuck ablut pneumatized Carapace?! So you can no longer hide anything from Zerg? It was really hard already, with the increase of the ovie speed in general, but now it's impossible!
Btw, the first HotS season will be about who abuses the broken balance the most, gonna be hilarious i think, it doesn't feel like the game is close to having the balance of wol yet.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this.
If you rely on thors as your only anti air in a mech army, yeah. I've seen the way people play mech in TvP and I'm just sitting there thinking to myself "Why the fuck does this guy have 8 siege tanks against a mass air army?!"
Also overlord speed change is absolutely meaningless.
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On February 08 2013 18:12 Ingusstarcraft wrote:
What the fuck ablut pneumatized Carapace?! So you can no longer hide anything from Zerg? It was really hard already, with the increase of the ovie speed in general, but now it's impossible!
Don't worry, nobody will get it before lair anyway.
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On February 08 2013 18:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this. If you rely on thors as your only anti air in a mech army, yeah. I've seen the way people play mech in TvP and I'm just sitting there thinking to myself "Why the fuck does this guy have 8 siege tanks against a mass air army?!"
I'm not talking mass air.
I'm taking 2 void-rays that can be chronoboosted as mech army moves out.
Even if mech cleaned up the entire protoss ground army it would still be devasted by air and then terran player would die to gateway remax.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:18 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this. If you rely on thors as your only anti air in a mech army, yeah. I've seen the way people play mech in TvP and I'm just sitting there thinking to myself "Why the fuck does this guy have 8 siege tanks against a mass air army?!" I'm not talking mass air. I'm taking 2 void-rays that can be chronoboosted as mech army moves out. Even if mech cleaned up the entire protoss ground army it would still be devasted by air and then terran player would die to gateway remax.
Eeeeeeh. Lol, that would never happen to anybody who is actually good. Void rays are still slow as fuck so if you can't kill them... pull back, make something that shoots up? Shouldn't be all that hard considering air and vehicle upgrades are combined now and you can make 2 vikings at a time. So if anything at all indicates that there are stargates, make vikings, profit from their already completed upgrades, go in again and just kill him.
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On February 08 2013 18:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:18 pmp10 wrote:On February 08 2013 18:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this. If you rely on thors as your only anti air in a mech army, yeah. I've seen the way people play mech in TvP and I'm just sitting there thinking to myself "Why the fuck does this guy have 8 siege tanks against a mass air army?!" I'm not talking mass air. I'm taking 2 void-rays that can be chronoboosted as mech army moves out. Even if mech cleaned up the entire protoss ground army it would still be devasted by air and then terran player would die to gateway remax. Eeeeeeh. Lol, that would never happen to anybody who is actually good. Void rays are still slow as fuck so if you can't kill them... pull back, make something that shoots up?
I've heard that Vikings are pretty good....
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Smart players will def be getting early ovi speed. What I am wondering is the impact having so much Intel will have on the meta.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:26 Apevia wrote:
Smart players will def be getting early ovi speed. What I am wondering is the impact having so much Intel will have on the meta.
They will naht
It's a complete waste of gas on an upgrade that doesn't help them at all. Think about it, zerg doesn't want to have gas early. They want drones. If they do get gas, it's for ling speed or tech. Imagine you play 2 base zerg, you get overlord speed with your first 100 gas (because why get it later, you'll already know what's going on). You can either scout an aggressive build (which you'll see coming anyway if there's no expansion) or see an expansion which you'd have seen without speed too. So imagine you scout an attack with your overlord speed but you don't have ling speed because your gas went into overlord speed. "Damn, if only I hadn't scouted this all in!"
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I'm really still waiting for a +shields buff to tanks
Fungal nerf is nice though.
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On February 08 2013 18:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:26 Apevia wrote:
Smart players will def be getting early ovi speed. What I am wondering is the impact having so much Intel will have on the meta. They will naht It's a complete waste of gas on an upgrade that doesn't help them at all.
It helps quite a bit. Being able to scout exactly what your opponent is doing is key. Outside of gold league players prevent traditional ovi sacks with stalkers/marines. Its a small investment that allows you to play with more confidence and be more decisive.
And I would suggest getting it with your second hundred gas. Because you still will want 2 queens. First hundred speed.
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Austria24417 Posts
I mean... why not make this + shields damage an upgrade for siege tanks at say armory? To give it to a unit that has splash damage and hits both air and ground + is cheaper and can be produced 2 at a time, that's too much...
100 gas is not a small investment early in the game when you're possibly unsure of what your opponent is doing and the scouting intel you get with your speed overlords isn't gonna help you if you don't have the tech to hold off an attack. There will not be a single zerg who gets overlord speed before ling speed. And after that you'll pretty much already know what's going on anyway.
The only matchup that still has suicide overlords is PvZ and zerg still opens 3 hatch no gas. Tell me where you'll squeeze in 100 gas for overlord speed.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF
You really do not have to have a T3 unit, what are you on about?
All you need is some form of detection which you're forced to get anyway as that's how protoss always worked and with detection a stalker outranges a widowmine, so the only time you'll lose a stalker is if you run around blindly and that should be punished.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:42 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF You really do not have to have a T3 unit, what are you on about? All you need is some form of detection which you're forced to get anyway as that's how protoss always worked and with detection a stalker outranges a widowmine, so the only time you'll lose a stalker is if you run around blindly and that should be punished.
Why should that be punished? I'm supposed to use oracles to multitask and put on aggression but if I constantly have to use their envision ability there'll be no energy to attack. Why the F should being out on the map without detection be punished this hard, especially if protoss units are already more expensive than terran units BY FAR? If there was a banshee opening, sure. But in that case terran heavily committed to something that won't help them in the long run so making multiple observers early isn't gonna hurt you much. There's never a reason for terran not to go widow mines right now. They will never be out of place in TvP with a +shields bonus, splash damage and an attack that hits air and ground. And fucking 1 shots half the protoss army.
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I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
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On February 08 2013 18:12 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:08 LF[Media] wrote:
It is overpowered lategame in a mech-based composition, but it will take a lot of time for people to realize this. Immortal Archon is hard-countered by Widowmine/Hellbat.
Yes, 1-base Oracle results in a lot of build-order losses.
Yes, Void Ray is probably overpowered.
But that doesn't mean TvP Mech with Widow Mines and Hellbats isn't overpowered as well. It's not. In fact this may be a much needed buff against stargate transitions. Right now 80 supply mech armies regularly die to last second void-rays and better widow mine may help with this.
Sorry, but you're wrong; Mech is the strongest composition against Protoss now; wait until everyone catches up and realizes it. You should play more beta. I know people like to say "buff" mech because it's all the rage, but Terran has all the tools it needs to beat Protoss with mech right now; it's insanely powerful. Trust me on this one.
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What is with the + dmg to bio on spores? Master z and I don't have a clue..? lol The only biological air is our own air..? so this is like.. a muta nerf?
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:46 Apevia wrote:
I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
Yeah so... why get it at all? Zerg has all the scouting tools they need. It's absolutely useless in ZvP, zvT you'll always know if they're 1 basing in ZvT and then you will never want gas invested in overlord speed and ZvZ you pretty much always know what's going on anyway.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:47 Lumi wrote:
What is with the + dmg to bio on spores? Master z and I don't have a clue..? lol The only biological air is our own air..? so this is like.. a muta nerf?
Yeah it's supposed to tone down fungal without breaking mutas, at least that's what they said
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:42 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF You really do not have to have a T3 unit, what are you on about? All you need is some form of detection which you're forced to get anyway as that's how protoss always worked and with detection a stalker outranges a widowmine, so the only time you'll lose a stalker is if you run around blindly and that should be punished. Why should that be punished? I'm supposed to use oracles to multitask and put on aggression but if I constantly have to use their envision ability there'll be no energy to attack. Why the F should being out on the map without detection be punished this hard, especially if protoss units are already more expensive than terran units BY FAR? If there was a banshee opening, sure. But in that case terran heavily committed to something that won't help them in the long run so making multiple observers early isn't gonna hurt you much. There's never a reason for terran not to go widow mines right now. They will never be out of place in TvP with a +shields bonus, splash damage and an attack that hits air and ground. And fucking 1 shots half the protoss army.
The mine needs to be cost efficient because it's so damned useless if you just move with detection. Moving around while not paying attention should be punished. Just as walking into siege tank range and not attacking should be a big blunder and you should take good damage. There needs to be more things that force skill from the opponent as well as skill in positioning for the user like the widow mine should now offer.
The widow mine was good against zerg and terran, but completely useless against tosses as they never run around with without an observer.
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Italy12246 Posts
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:51 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:42 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How do people not understand that it's fucking retarded that to beat a factory unit that costs 25 gas and is 2 supply you have to have a fucking 300/200 T3 army that takes ages and an insane amount of gas to tech to? It's dumb as hell. If immortals were not affected by this I'd be ok with it. The immortal was pretty much the only protection protoss had against early/midgame terran factory units. You expect protoss to be more aggressive on the map but give terran a unit that 1 shots your 125/50 stalkers? YThe widow mine is cheaper than a stalker and it fucking 1 shots them AND has fucking splash damage. WTF You really do not have to have a T3 unit, what are you on about? All you need is some form of detection which you're forced to get anyway as that's how protoss always worked and with detection a stalker outranges a widowmine, so the only time you'll lose a stalker is if you run around blindly and that should be punished. Why should that be punished? I'm supposed to use oracles to multitask and put on aggression but if I constantly have to use their envision ability there'll be no energy to attack. Why the F should being out on the map without detection be punished this hard, especially if protoss units are already more expensive than terran units BY FAR? If there was a banshee opening, sure. But in that case terran heavily committed to something that won't help them in the long run so making multiple observers early isn't gonna hurt you much. There's never a reason for terran not to go widow mines right now. They will never be out of place in TvP with a +shields bonus, splash damage and an attack that hits air and ground. And fucking 1 shots half the protoss army. The mine needs to be cost efficient because it's so damned useless if you just move with detection. Moving around while not paying attention should be punished. Just as walking into siege tank range and not attacking should be a big blunder and you should take good damage. There needs to be more things that force skill from the opponent as well as skill in positioning for the user like the widow mine should now offer. The widow mine was good against zerg and terran, but completely useless against tosses as they never run around with without an observer.
Well that alone makes oracles completely defensive units though if you open stargate. You can't afford to harrass if you wanna be out on the map with any unit at all. That's not worth the investment. Not at all. Watch stargate play die again.
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Aww *facepalm*
Fungal nerf and spore buff regards zvz:
Seriously, going in the opponents mineral line isnt viable anyway without gambling because of fungal, disregardless spore dmg. There is too much stuff in the opponents main to rip apart mutas as soon as theyre fungaled.
That being said, muta play will increase even more with the fungal nerf. It was already quite dodgeable, now muta players will fear infestors even less.
-> FAIL
Ovi speed to hatch:
That won't affect anything. Zerg has to boost his mineral income and line important gas upgrades (speed, lair) perfectly up to deal with incoming pushes. There is no way in the world you can afford the early overlord speed. It isnt worth it. Rather sac 2 overlords (200minerals only) to get the scouting you need.
-> FAIL
I also wasnt a fan of the burrow to hatch tech, but its at least helpfull for some allins/strong pressure builds. But THIS is so much non-sense, i cant find words for that.
Dunno about tvp since im zerg.
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On February 08 2013 18:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:46 Apevia wrote:
I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
Yeah so... why get it at all? Zerg has all the scouting tools they need. It's absolutely useless in ZvP, zvT you'll always know if they're 1 basing in ZvT and then you will never want gas invested in overlord speed and ZvZ you pretty much always know what's going on anyway.
ZvT its good to know asap if they are meching or playing bio. And of course the popular hell bat drop. (Which needs a reaction). Plus allows for a smooth transition to roach drop if they mech.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad.
2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing.
People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly.
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On February 08 2013 18:57 Apevia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:46 Apevia wrote:
I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
Yeah so... why get it at all? Zerg has all the scouting tools they need. It's absolutely useless in ZvP, zvT you'll always know if they're 1 basing in ZvT and then you will never want gas invested in overlord speed and ZvZ you pretty much always know what's going on anyway. ZvT its good to know asap if they are meching or playing bio. And of course the popular hell bat drop. (Which needs a reaction). Plus allows for a smooth transition to roach drop if they mech.
All you need is sac a single ovie vs. terran and you can see he goes mech or bio.
And on hellbats.. every single terran nowadays goes into hellbat drops so you don't even need to scout that lol.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:57 Apevia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 18:46 Apevia wrote:
I never said get it before speed, that's just something you assume. Obv if you scout that he is one basing then you don't need it. That is ZvT. ZvP it is def harder to squeeze in the gas. But you already have a lot of info just by seeing a P's gas.
Yeah so... why get it at all? Zerg has all the scouting tools they need. It's absolutely useless in ZvP, zvT you'll always know if they're 1 basing in ZvT and then you will never want gas invested in overlord speed and ZvZ you pretty much always know what's going on anyway. ZvT its good to know asap if they are meching or playing bio. And of course the popular hell bat drop. (Which needs a reaction). Plus allows for a smooth transition to roach drop if they mech.
But the mech decision is made after an expansion is set up. Zerg will stay gasless as long as possible. So once again, your gas will not be going into overlord speed quickly. If a terran sees you have overlord speed, they should just walk across the map and kill you because you won't have any tech to defend. If you get ling speed first, the bio/mech decision will already have been made long ago.
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Italy12246 Posts
On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly.
What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)...
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Besides spore buff against mutalisks this patch is useless. Of course another nerf to infestors, because they are soooo overpowered compered to other units, meh.... Am I only zerg player who wants helbats nerf? Now in every ZvT i have to build roaches, because helbats rape me every time, now matter how many queens or spines i have they always can wipe out whole mineral line, thats retarded couse you cant go heavy zergling anymore in the mid game, you have to build roaches. But maybe i am just bad, i will be pleased if someone responds to my post.
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if they want to combat mass muta they should just make fungal stronger vs bio air units...
tiny patch, makes me think we wont see any big change before release, which makes me a sad panda
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)...
They have everything to do with it.
You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free.
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Italy12246 Posts
On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free.
That's the most incredibly generic post ever and it just shows your game understanding is so poor this discussion isn't even worth having.
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On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free.
You obviously have never ever played Zerg. I suggest you just switch to Zerg for a while, try to play without that early "free" third base and enjoy your time in silver league.
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I really, really hate "Bonus damage against X because, well, balance!". Makes little to no sense visually for both spectators and new players.
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Can't believe they still keep nerfing Fungal. At this point I think changing the skill completely would have been better.
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On February 08 2013 19:31 CruelZeratul wrote:
Can't believe they still keep nerfing Fungal. At this point I think changing the skill completely would have been better.
I think we can even live with the Fungal changes since it obviously was a very powerful spell in WoL that was probably too pivotal. The thing that bugs me is that they practically did nothing to compensate for the Fungal nerfs. The two T1 tech changes for Zerg are laughable and will never ever have any impact in their current form. Swarm Hosts are a boring niche unit. The Muta buff is easily negated and overruled by a shitton of serious T1/T2 buffs for both Terran and Protoss. There just has to be a buff to Zerg T2, preferably to Hydralisks.
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On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Besides spore buff against mutalisks this patch is useless. Of course another nerf to infestors, because they are soooo overpowered compered to other units, meh.... Am I only zerg player who wants helbats nerf? Now in every ZvT i have to build roaches, because helbats rape me every time, now matter how many queens or spines i have they always can wipe out whole mineral line, thats retarded couse you cant go heavy zergling anymore in the mid game, you have to build roaches. But maybe i am just bad, i will be pleased if someone responds to my post.
You are not bad.Its just the metagame now.To stop Hellbats you need roaches,but hey..I want to control the map with only 2 marines and this is not fair!!! Why should I build hellions?Why cant skip factory and go for pure MMM?Oh,because I face creep in my natural?
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it.
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On February 08 2013 19:47 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:31 CruelZeratul wrote:
Can't believe they still keep nerfing Fungal. At this point I think changing the skill completely would have been better. I think we can even live with the Fungal changes since it obviously was a very powerful spell in WoL that was probably too pivotal. The thing that bugs me is that they practically did nothing to compensate for the Fungal nerfs. The two T1 tech changes for Zerg are laughable and will never ever have any impact in their current form. Swarm Hosts are a boring niche unit. The Muta buff is easily negated and overruled by a shitton of serious T1/T2 buffs for both Terran and Protoss. There just has to be a buff to Zerg T2, preferably to Hydralisks.
What i would really like to see is to get rid of useless Swarm Host and move Viper to T2. I know that is probably too late for that, but it would make playing Z more interesting. Now imo its just boring, you are doing the same stuff you did in WoL. I just want Z to be again fun race to play, its fu*king Zerg addon and I feel like playing WoL all the time.
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Overlord speed is so incredibly useless in the early game. You're not going to blow your 100 precious gas on it, because you'll just die to anything, because you're missing another vital upgrade. Maybe if they lowered the cost to 50/50 it would be worth getting, but slow overlords still scout well enough, except for the well placed DT shrine from time to time. But even without seeing the shrine you can expect DTs due to the empty protoss base.
So I guess this is only worth it in lower leagues, where people float money anyway and need to see the actual building to understand what's coming.
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If the speed tech is so useless early it's stupid to have it in lair tech in the first place. You don't need constraints when it's not needed.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On February 08 2013 19:47 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:31 CruelZeratul wrote:
Can't believe they still keep nerfing Fungal. At this point I think changing the skill completely would have been better. I think we can even live with the Fungal changes since it obviously was a very powerful spell in WoL that was probably too pivotal. The thing that bugs me is that they practically did nothing to compensate for the Fungal nerfs. The two T1 tech changes for Zerg are laughable and will never ever have any impact in their current form. Swarm Hosts are a boring niche unit. The Muta buff is easily negated and overruled by a shitton of serious T1/T2 buffs for both Terran and Protoss. There just has to be a buff to Zerg T2, preferably to Hydralisks.
They buffed spores, that speed change was to tone down fungal and the spore change is to stop mutas being to prevalent.
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On February 08 2013 20:06 nihlon wrote:
If the speed tech is so useless early it's stupid to have it in lair tech in the first place. You don't need constraints when it's not needed.
What? Speed for overlords is useful during the midgame, to execute roach drops vs mech for example. Having it in lair makes sense, having it in hatchery doesn't.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 20:06 nihlon wrote:
If the speed tech is so useless early it's stupid to have it in lair tech in the first place. You don't need constraints when it's not needed.
Those are two different things though. It's a good upgrade, but not as early into the game when you'd still be on hatch tech.
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More DMG against Shields would be such a nice lategame tank upgrade :/
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On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it.
So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches?
(Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack)
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On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack)
Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas.
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On February 08 2013 19:21 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free. You obviously have never ever played Zerg. I suggest you just switch to Zerg for a while, try to play without that early "free" third base and enjoy your time in silver league.
How about you stop being so condemning and stop to think for a second. This is HoTS, not WoL. Who said hots could never be balanced around not having instant 3 bases at the 5 min mark and maxed 200/200 at 11 min? You could go for the quickest and most powerful allin of them all, the 4 gate, and still not be able to do any damage to a zerg who goes for 3 quick hatches, and thats flat out stupid.
Tech is stronger in hots than before, and both terran and toss have some real ability to punish greedy play. At the same time, Zerg have stronger midgame units, like the new hydralisk and viper, so they can deal with the other two races without going straight to infestors and gg-lords, who no longer are even that effective because of tempest and nerfs.
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I started playing beta after patch 11 when helbats got strong buff, did they were so bad earlier that they needed such big damage boost ?
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Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still.
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On February 08 2013 18:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I mean... why not make this + shields damage an upgrade for siege tanks at say armory? To give it to a unit that has splash damage and hits both air and ground + is cheaper and can be produced 2 at a time, that's too much...
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I would reckon that kim and browder would rather want mech TvP to be viable thanks to their new unit, the mine. Fixing mech TvP through the tank would hurt their pride, they're too stubborn to admit they were wrong.
Now, while I would rather put that shield damage to the siege tank, the WM offers some advantages: it can hit skytoss (which is very stronk) and it meshes well with bio.
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On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still.
You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going.
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On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack)
Couple of minerals??? 150 100 FActory,150 100 Starport 150 50 Armory vs what??? 150 queen,100 spore? Where are your "couple of minerals" vs "some roaches"? I told you 5 roaches beat 4 Hellbats+Medivac and no micro if you dont want it!!!Where is the higher price man?
My numbers are: 375 125=5 Roaches and 500 100= 4 Hellbat+Medivac
pool+roach warren+queen+spore=600 min 0 gas
rax+Facrory+starport+armory=600 min 250 gas
If roaches arent "devastating mobile force" for ,then you got no clue of playing Zerg...
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On February 08 2013 20:36 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still. You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going.
Long patience. In fact, don't expect anything major before the first expansion. They've said as much.
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On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas.
Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair.
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On February 08 2013 20:46 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Couple of minerals??? 150 100 FActory,150 100 Starport 150 50 Armory vs what??? 150 queen,100 spore? Where are your "couple of minerals" vs "some roaches"? I told you 5 roaches beat 4 Hellbats+Medivac and no micro if you dont want it!!!Where is the higher price man? My numbers are: 375 125=5 Roaches and 500 100= 4 Hellbat+Medivac pool+roach warren+queen+spore=600 min 0 gas rax+Facrory+starport+armory=600 min 250 gas If roaches arent "devastating mobile force" for ,then you got no clue of playing Zerg...
Wich is the earliest time for a helion drop? It will be possible to defend with 5 roach + burrow micro?
Z: 375 (+100) 125(+100)=5 Roaches + burrow and 500 100= 4 Hellbat+Medivac
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On February 08 2013 20:46 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Couple of minerals??? 150 100 FActory,150 100 Starport 150 50 Armory vs what??? 150 queen,100 spore? Where are your "couple of minerals" vs "some roaches"? I told you 5 roaches beat 4 Hellbats+Medivac and no micro if you dont want it!!!Where is the higher price man? My numbers are: 375 125=5 Roaches and 500 100= 4 Hellbat+Medivac pool+roach warren+queen+spore=600 min 0 gas rax+Facrory+starport+armory=600 min 250 gas If roaches arent "devastating mobile force" for ,then you got no clue of playing Zerg...
because arguable a Terran always intends to get fact/port anyway. And the only part of the attack which is not standard build is the hellbats themself.
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On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair.
First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy.
Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard.
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On February 08 2013 20:36 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still. You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going.
you do realize we have 3-4 patches maximum until release?
i dunno if i can trust in blizzard being bold enough to make bigger balance patches post-release if they dont do it in beta
so yeah, this is pretty much the state of the game we are going to have until lotv...
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Believe me.Go to the Unit Tester: 5 roaches beat the hellbat drop WITHOUT ANY MICRO! No need of burrow or upgrades.
@DeCoup
In the Standart BO when T goes 1-1-1 vs Zerg,usually is for Hellion/BFH drop or Hellion/Banshee/Cloakshee harass.
Is there another standart BO where T needs Armory at 7 mins and a Medivac? The 1rax FE begin the Factory arround 7 min and the Armory is pretty late.The first medivacs are done at 10 mins...
Do you think is the same????
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On February 08 2013 20:36 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still. You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going.
Believe me, I'm not crying here, but I'm more just trying to emphasise my frustration as basically some things haven't changed since WoL beta and don't seem to. The only notable patch basically where I felt _something_ was #8. The rest was questionable at best, mostly forgettable.
I've been trying to rationalise post-purchase as I gave them my batch of patience and faith for 3 horrid long years now. Just for comparison, that's 3 times the amount BW needed, as much time as LOST managed to achieve eternal acclaim, and twice the time it took me to read through Gravity's Rainbow (<- Okay this was in 3 tries, so that's there too).
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On February 08 2013 18:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I mean... why not make this + shields damage an upgrade for siege tanks at say armory? To give it to a unit that has splash damage and hits both air and ground + is cheaper and can be produced 2 at a time, that's too much...
Isnt it obvious why they dont do this? They LOATHE the Siege Tank (why else did they buff everything else around it?) and want to get rid of it. The first - somewhat obvious - attempt was the Warhound, which featured the same kind of bonus damage, but was booed so much by the community that they removed it ASAP. The second attempt to "sneakily replace it" is by buffing the Widow Mine ... a unit which is powerful but doesnt synergize well with other units of an *army*.
Siege Tank and Carrier are two "non-tier 1" remnants of core units from BW and they really really REALLY want to get rid of them. Why else did neither of them get buffed significantly? The Hydralisk is rather necessary as a ground based AA unit, so they cant get rid of it, but I guess they dont like it much either.
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On February 08 2013 21:02 Dvriel wrote:
Believe me.Go to the Unit Tester: 5 roaches beat the hellbat drop WITHOUT ANY MICRO! No need of burrow or upgrades.
Unit tester map is not a real game. In mineral line there is usually no place to spread out roaches so they won't take splash damage. Then you have medivac which heal hellbats and lastly, terran does not even need to fight roaches because he can keep dropping on drones.
The problem is not that it's impossible to kill hellbats, it's just not possible to kill them in reasonable time before they do ridiculous damage.
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On February 08 2013 21:06 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:02 Dvriel wrote:
Believe me.Go to the Unit Tester: 5 roaches beat the hellbat drop WITHOUT ANY MICRO! No need of burrow or upgrades. Unit tester map is not a real game. In mineral line there is usually no place to spread out roaches so they won't take splash damage. Then you have medivac which heal hellbats and lastly, terran does not even need to fight roaches because he can keep dropping on drones. The problem is not that it's impossible to kill hellbats, it's just not possible to kill them in reasonable time before they do ridiculous damage.
Please dont forget, even if Z does defend it 100% properly (which is really really hard), Z loses all his larvae on the hatchery (which is worth a lot at that stage of the game) as well as a TON of mining time because theyre so tanky.
It is definately NOT risky for terran to do that and terran does ALWAYS get use out of it
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1 minute detection is a lot e_e i wish they had increased it to 45 seconds instead,since the protoss move his army with the MC the early burrow and mines upgrade is pretty much useless.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:16 shid0x wrote:
1 minute detection is a lot e_e i wish they had increased it to 45 seconds instead,since the protoss move his army with the MC the early burrow and mines upgrade is pretty much useless.
??
Oracle has detection, not MSC
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On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard.
3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough.
Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals.
DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast...
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On February 08 2013 21:06 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:02 Dvriel wrote:
Believe me.Go to the Unit Tester: 5 roaches beat the hellbat drop WITHOUT ANY MICRO! No need of burrow or upgrades. Unit tester map is not a real game. In mineral line there is usually no place to spread out roaches so they won't take splash damage. Then you have medivac which heal hellbats and lastly, terran does not even need to fight roaches because he can keep dropping on drones. The problem is not that it's impossible to kill hellbats, it's just not possible to kill them in reasonable time before they do ridiculous damage.
Dont let drones there and scout!!! Put your overlords in the possible patsh of medivacs and wait for them.Try snipe them with queens and pull drones,man.Even clumped Roaches suffering the 4 Hellbat fire are able to kill them with 2 roaches remaining.
I can show you in game.Just add me and we play. Demon 952
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast...
Doesn't mean that you can just go DT every game. DTs give you map control until zerg/terran have any kind of detection available, after that they're just dead weight. That's why you usually only see DTs lategame unless you do a strategy that specifically centers around them to exploit the lack of detection.
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On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.
This is simply not true... Hellbat drops can come from silly fast 1 base pushes but more commonly as standard harass all game long...
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The oracle change kills DT in PvP
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes.
You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now?
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now?
Lol, oh man. Another hero
Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine.
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Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval?
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:32 absalom86 wrote:
Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval?
NO!
No free units trading against super expensive units, nonononono
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine.
Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection.
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On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now?
Yes, and ? you risk to be called an idiot if you advocate that races should be op for some time and take "turns" for that. In PvZ you could have still hoped for a lucky vortex (not saying the late game wasn't in Z favour, just saying that skytoss is a little bit stronger now vs zerg than infestor broodlord vs p).
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On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast...
What are you trying to prove here? I know hellbat drops are very hard to defend, I've seen many pro players losing so much stuff to that.
If all zerg got is 5 roaches then you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. He pulls drones, and you just catch them with speed medivac and drop on them. That's how you do.
Oh and hellbats drops come from any amount of base play.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection.
Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP
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On February 08 2013 21:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:32 absalom86 wrote:
Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval? NO! No free units trading against super expensive units, nonononono
I never said trading mind you, how much damage / how fast they move / how much health is completely customizable. Locusts already trade vs high cost units as is, they are slow and need set up time before hand which balances it out. Same could be done for an spawning scourges or some other anti air ( 10 second switch time between modes for example ).
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On February 08 2013 22:02 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 absalom86 wrote:
Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval? NO! No free units trading against super expensive units, nonononono I never said trading mind you, how much damage / how fast they move / how much health is completely customizable. Locusts already trade vs high cost units as is, they are slow and need set up time before hand which balances it out. Same could be done for an spawning scourges or some other anti air ( 10 second switch time between modes for example ).
Hmm, spawning free flying banelings.
THAT COULD WORK!
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On February 08 2013 22:08 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:02 absalom86 wrote:On February 08 2013 21:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 absalom86 wrote:
Concerning mass muta zvz and skytoss being so dominant now, would it make sense to let Swarm Host spawn either ground or air attacking units ? Could be balanced against what it needs to counter, might even spawn scourges on a timed interval? NO! No free units trading against super expensive units, nonononono I never said trading mind you, how much damage / how fast they move / how much health is completely customizable. Locusts already trade vs high cost units as is, they are slow and need set up time before hand which balances it out. Same could be done for an spawning scourges or some other anti air ( 10 second switch time between modes for example ). Hmm, spawning free flying banelings. THAT COULD WORK!
It would be like a projectile that you could stop... I'd love actually :D
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So, now Widow Mines one-shot Stalkers and Oracles. A WP will be left with 40 hp.
Protoss cannot harass against Terran without risking to lose the harass units without doing any damage at all in the blink of an eye.
Hellbats beat Stalkers in 1v1, also Zealots, there are very few ground units in the game that can trade cost efficiently against Hellbats and Protoss owns none of them.
In fact, 8 Hellions (800 Minerals) beat 2 Archons (200-600 or 500-500) incredibly easily, there are 5-6 left over.
Hellbats are the best ground unit right now, after Ultralisk. BUT they can also be used to inflict a ton of eco damage via drops or Hellion mode.
So you create a race that has easy access to powerful and massable units that serve almost any purpose in the game but also make them immune to harass. That sounds like a smart concept..
Edit: I guess you can use 2 Tempests and an Observer to constantly kill off Widow Mines and Missile Turrets to open up possibilities to harass a Terran >.<
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On February 08 2013 20:31 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 19:21 .syd. wrote:On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free. You obviously have never ever played Zerg. I suggest you just switch to Zerg for a while, try to play without that early "free" third base and enjoy your time in silver league. How about you stop being so condemning and stop to think for a second. This is HoTS, not WoL. Who said hots could never be balanced around not having instant 3 bases at the 5 min mark and maxed 200/200 at 11 min? You could go for the quickest and most powerful allin of them all, the 4 gate, and still not be able to do any damage to a zerg who goes for 3 quick hatches, and thats flat out stupid. Tech is stronger in hots than before, and both terran and toss have some real ability to punish greedy play. At the same time, Zerg have stronger midgame units, like the new hydralisk and viper, so they can deal with the other two races without going straight to infestors and gg-lords, who no longer are even that effective because of tempest and nerfs.
New Hydra, heh you're really funny man. Bitching about Broodlords too, guess things never change eh? Tempests Rape BL's and Hellbats rape broodlings.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 22:14 DaOrks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:31 Excludos wrote:On February 08 2013 19:21 .syd. wrote:On February 08 2013 19:12 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 19:04 Teoita wrote:On February 08 2013 18:57 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 18:53 Teoita wrote:
I'm really, really concerned about the new mines. 1Gate FE seems so exploitable now, and if we can't do that opening...the fuck are we going to do in early game PvT. We figured out 2years ago that onebase tech openings are bad. 2 years ago was a different game. The matchups have changed a lot and players play will be forced to change thank goodness. Maybe due to the new stuff for Terran and Toss zerg may not be making drones for the first 15 minutes of the game and nothing else. That's a good thing. People shouldn't instantly go up to 3 bases within 10 minutes and not be punishable. It's silly. What the hell do early game openings have to do with free 3base games (which in WoL is caused by PvZ and roach max more than anything btw)... They have everything to do with it. You can go for an opening into an agressive midgame off of 2 bases and still do zero damage to someone who took a free three base. The only race who seems to be able to punish anything in WoL ZvX is Z. Now with more agressive openings that are actually more viable, you get less people taking instant three bases for free. You obviously have never ever played Zerg. I suggest you just switch to Zerg for a while, try to play without that early "free" third base and enjoy your time in silver league. How about you stop being so condemning and stop to think for a second. This is HoTS, not WoL. Who said hots could never be balanced around not having instant 3 bases at the 5 min mark and maxed 200/200 at 11 min? You could go for the quickest and most powerful allin of them all, the 4 gate, and still not be able to do any damage to a zerg who goes for 3 quick hatches, and thats flat out stupid. Tech is stronger in hots than before, and both terran and toss have some real ability to punish greedy play. At the same time, Zerg have stronger midgame units, like the new hydralisk and viper, so they can deal with the other two races without going straight to infestors and gg-lords, who no longer are even that effective because of tempest and nerfs. New Hydra, heh you're really funny man. Bitching about Broodlords too, guess things never change eh? Tempests Rape BL's and Hellbats rape broodlings.
Lol, there'd be something wrong with the game if they didn't
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Just to sum up 2 last pages - helbats need to be nerfed, i think every race now is complaining about it.
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On February 08 2013 21:01 summerloud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 20:36 See.Blue wrote:On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still. You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going. you do realize we have 3-4 patches maximum until release? i dunno if i can trust in blizzard being bold enough to make bigger balance patches post-release if they dont do it in beta so yeah, this is pretty much the state of the game we are going to have until lotv...
You act like the game can't be patched after it is released.....
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why bother writing feedback if they ignore it?
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So many people wouldn't understand that those units seem powerful just because not enough time has passed for players to find counter to them. So naive.
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On February 08 2013 22:19 DaOrks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:01 summerloud wrote:On February 08 2013 20:36 See.Blue wrote:On February 08 2013 20:33 PVJ wrote:
Too minor changes. I hate, no, I loathe, or something even more horrendous than that, the fact that they think they've arrived at the goal and all is well. There is so much to do, still. You're getting a little emotional there about a patch. I agree its not the best, but patience; they'll keep going. you do realize we have 3-4 patches maximum until release? i dunno if i can trust in blizzard being bold enough to make bigger balance patches post-release if they dont do it in beta so yeah, this is pretty much the state of the game we are going to have until lotv... You act like the game can't be patched after it is released.....
stats can be changed but not often design things get fixed. changing seeker missile needed a beta to happen. changing NP, corruption, removing hydra upgrades, introducing speedmedivac upgrade etc...such things arent changed as easy as simple stats after release. thats why they should change it now and everybody is dissappointed by this patch.
for example even P and T players see that hydras suck and even write it in bnet forums, yet blizzard lets hydras suck and buff spores to fight mutas ZvZ instead of just buffing hydras. THAT are things everybody hates about blizzard and their patch philosophy.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP
I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame.
The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks.
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On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks.
so morrows stream is your evidence?
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 22:50 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks. so morrows stream is your evidence?
Considering he plays and beats the best HotS players with it, yes?
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On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks.
Does that mean marine/medivac/tank is mech now?
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 22:51 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks. Does that mean marine/medivac/tank is mech now?
WTF
So mech is not mech because you make one caster support unit that's not a robot? Seriously.
How freaking silly is this.
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On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks.
implying air terran = 100% mech.
with mech i mean siege tanks, mines, thors, hellbats.
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Austria24417 Posts
>_>
You guys are debating about what to call the unit composition that kills everything protoss instead of talking about why it would/wouldn't be a bad idea for it to be even stronger. That's kind of a silly discussion.
Protoss gateway units are supposed to be strong in low numbers but expensive. Then a cheap, quickly produced mine comes along and 1 shots every single gateway unit + has splash damage unless you have detection + stalkers with your army which in turns are terrrrrrrible vs siege tanks that now don't need an upgrade.
Gateway units are complete trash in HotS in every matchup and robo units didn't exactly get stronger either. Airtoss is and will always be bad in PvT because marines
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On February 08 2013 22:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:50 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:
[quote]
Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it.
The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks. so morrows stream is your evidence? Considering he plays and beats the best HotS players with it, yes?
Lol i have seen morrow get owned by tempests/sky toss a lot when he goes mech. I also have lots of personal experience playing hots in gm/master league and when toss gets 5-10 ht's and gets a ton of skytoss your vikings die so fast(tempests and carriers kill vikings REALLY fast) and landing a good hunter seeker missile is really hard vs a decent player
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 23:04 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 22:50 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:
[quote]
Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks. so morrows stream is your evidence? Considering he plays and beats the best HotS players with it, yes? Lol i have seen morrow get owned by tempests/sky toss a lot when he goes mech. I also have lots of personal experience playing hots in gm/master league and when toss gets 5-10 ht's and gets a ton of skytoss your vikings die so fast(tempests and carriers kill vikings REALLY fast) and landing a good hunter seeker missile is really hard vs a decent player
PDD & EMP. That's all you need. And he wins every game when he does it correctly.
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On February 08 2013 22:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:50 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:
[quote]
Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it.
The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks. so morrows stream is your evidence? Considering he plays and beats the best HotS players with it, yes?
Lol dude take a step back and realize how ridiculous you're being right now.
1. Morrow is playing against inexperienced hots foreigners and the occasional non-top Korean.
2. If he tried to get that composition vs a Code S level Terran using mech on the way, he would get ROCKED.
Rofl, "late game MECH is already too hard" I'm dying here man. Stop lying to yourself bro
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 23:07 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 22:50 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 08 2013 22:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 22:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:34 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 21:32 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 21:30 removeinfestor wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:
[quote]
Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. You mean kind of like zerg has been for a year now? Lol, oh man. Another hero Skytoss might be too powerful but I'd rather give it some time before nerfing it to death. Same with widow mine. Why does the widow mine need to be nerfed? It's hard countered by just owning some detection. Lategame PvT vs mech is already hard enough as it is. Protoss detection is so fragile and easily sniped that widow mines would just blow up everything. Range doesn't matter when you can't see them. That's why I said I'd rather see the + shield attack as an upgrade for siege tanks because they don't hit air and would get a more distinct role in TvP I'm really not sure what world you live in where lategame PvT against mech is hard. Lategame is almost impossible against a good protoss player currently if you go mech. That's if you even survive to live through to the midgame. The world where I've seen Morrow destroy people on stream with mech lategame everyday. Nothing beats mass viking/raven/ghost unless terran screws up their control. Adding widow mines to that... Geez. Nothanks. so morrows stream is your evidence? Considering he plays and beats the best HotS players with it, yes? Lol dude take a step back and realize how ridiculous you're being right now. 1. Morrow is playing against inexperienced hots foreigners and the occasional non-top Korean. 2. If he tried to get that composition vs a Code S level Terran using mech on the way, he would get ROCKED. Rofl, "late game MECH is already too hard" I'm dying here man. Stop lying to yourself bro
So I watched him play vs Minigun the other night... Such a scrub. Minigun won the game because Morrow fucked up and ran into storms. Minigun was commentating the whole time and he was getting more and more frustrated because there's no way to engage that army.
Give that army to a top Korean with good control (like Byun already does) and nobody wins against it.
Don't really care about your opinion. Morrow wouldn't do it if it were bad and Minigun wouldn't say it's fucking retarded if it was bad. Their opinion > yours ANY day.
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Minigun.... Hahahahaha I wouldn't even put him top 100 toss in the world. Awesome example there buddy
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 23:10 TimENT wrote:
Minigun.... Hahahahaha I wouldn't even put him top 100 toss in the world. Awesome example there buddy
Would you put Morrow in the top 100 terrans?
So Byun uses a similar composition (Ghost/viking, sometimes with ravens) in WoL already and nobody beats it. Byun such a scrub right.
Learn to fucking read or don't reply, not gonna waste my time on people like you who have no intention of making a productive argument.
Also considering Minigun was regularly #1 GM, I don't really care where you'd rank him.
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On February 08 2013 22:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:
>_>
You guys are debating about what to call the unit composition that kills everything protoss instead of talking about why it would/wouldn't be a bad idea for it to be even stronger. That's kind of a silly discussion.
Protoss gateway units are supposed to be strong in low numbers but expensive. Then a cheap, quickly produced mine comes along and 1 shots every single gateway unit + has splash damage unless you have detection + stalkers with your army which in turns are terrrrrrrible vs siege tanks that now don't need an upgrade.
Gateway units are complete trash in HotS in every matchup and robo units didn't exactly get stronger either. Airtoss is and will always be bad in PvT because marines
I think the problem with mines is that Blizzard painted themselves into a corner with the fire rate being 40 seconds. Which means in most scenarios, they get to shoot once. So if they cannot take out a single gateway units, they become supply inefficient.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 23:14 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:
>_>
You guys are debating about what to call the unit composition that kills everything protoss instead of talking about why it would/wouldn't be a bad idea for it to be even stronger. That's kind of a silly discussion.
Protoss gateway units are supposed to be strong in low numbers but expensive. Then a cheap, quickly produced mine comes along and 1 shots every single gateway unit + has splash damage unless you have detection + stalkers with your army which in turns are terrrrrrrible vs siege tanks that now don't need an upgrade.
Gateway units are complete trash in HotS in every matchup and robo units didn't exactly get stronger either. Airtoss is and will always be bad in PvT because marines I think the problem with mines is that Blizzard painted themselves into a corner with the fire rate being 40 seconds. Which means in most scenarios, they get to shoot once. So if they cannot take out a single gateway units, they become supply inefficient.
Yeah but with splash? That means that if they get to shoot once you... lose the game. Protoss can't afford to trade early/midgame, let alone lose parts of their army for nothing.
Why not give it to tanks as an upgrade at armory? That way it won't be used in new, revolutionary ( -_- ) 1/1/1 strategies but makes siege tanks an actual threat to protoss ground armies. Mines are not gonna help against a protoss ground army in the lategame when colossi, etc. are out on the field with detection always supporting them. The only thing mines are gonna be used for in TvP is give absolute map domination to terran until protoss has detection with their army. Which means you're not gonna go stargate, ever. Because oracles would become defensive support units rather than their actual supposed role of harassment tools => not worth the investment when you could go robo and achieve the same results for less money + an actually viable tech route vs bio AND mech in colossi.
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On February 08 2013 23:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 23:10 TimENT wrote:
Minigun.... Hahahahaha I wouldn't even put him top 100 toss in the world. Awesome example there buddy Would you put Morrow in the top 100 terrans? So Byun uses a similar composition (Ghost/viking, sometimes with ravens) in WoL already and nobody beats it. Byun such a scrub right. Learn to fucking read or don't reply, not gonna waste my time on people like you who have no intention of making a productive argument. Also considering Minigun was regularly #1 GM, I don't really care where you'd rank him.
How many times has Byun got there? Learn to use your fucking brain. He's used the composition like ...twice... in top level play. It hasn't been played against much.
No Morrow isn't top 100 either. So this conversation is irrelevant. Minigun (worse than at least 100 tosses) plays against Morrow (worse than at least 100 terrans). Both have the potential to micro and macro a million times better. Once again, learn to use your fucking brain.
I can read.
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On February 08 2013 10:10 Evangelist wrote:
Hope for a future tank buff, maybe? First time anything has had +damage to shields, right?
Would a Tank then damage like 35 to the unit and something to the shield?
Would like to see it but won't come, cause this would oneshot Archons
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On February 08 2013 10:05 avilo wrote:
Oracle still leads to build order wins, TvP is quite broken at this point. Expecting a lot of Terran players to switch race upon release.
Oh, and wait a minute, what? More early game buffs for Zerg? ....
You're right.
As someone who's had beta since day 1 I've played well over 1k games (I remember several warhound wars vs avilo)...since the complete removal of warhound I saw the writing on the wall switched to zerg for hots.
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Want to see the tanks get + against shields...
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 23:19 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 23:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 23:10 TimENT wrote:
Minigun.... Hahahahaha I wouldn't even put him top 100 toss in the world. Awesome example there buddy Would you put Morrow in the top 100 terrans? So Byun uses a similar composition (Ghost/viking, sometimes with ravens) in WoL already and nobody beats it. Byun such a scrub right. Learn to fucking read or don't reply, not gonna waste my time on people like you who have no intention of making a productive argument. Also considering Minigun was regularly #1 GM, I don't really care where you'd rank him. How many times has Byun got there? Learn to use your fucking brain. He's used the composition like ...twice... in top level play. It hasn't been played against much. No Morrow isn't top 100 either. So this conversation is irrelevant. Minigun (worse than at least 100 tosses) plays against Morrow (worse than at least 100 terrans). Both have the potential to micro and macro a million times better. Once again, learn to use your fucking brain. I can read.
Byun has used that against the best protoss players in the world frequently. HerO, Rain, etc etc. There's plenty of VODs to study from, it's not a hard playstyle to copy for top level terrans so they're surely as hell practicing against it.
Also WTF does it matter how many times he got there? That's like saying BL/infestor isn't too strong because zerg never gets there. Dumb argument.
So Morrow wins vs someone who is as skilled as him. Both players could micro better. Give both better micro. Morrow still wins?
Byun vs HerO. HerO has better micro. Byun wins.
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Yes, they should give tanks +dmg against shields and keep widow mines as is.
Actually, why don't they make every single mech unit 1-shot any protoss unit?
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On February 08 2013 23:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 23:19 TimENT wrote:On February 08 2013 23:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 23:10 TimENT wrote:
Minigun.... Hahahahaha I wouldn't even put him top 100 toss in the world. Awesome example there buddy Would you put Morrow in the top 100 terrans? So Byun uses a similar composition (Ghost/viking, sometimes with ravens) in WoL already and nobody beats it. Byun such a scrub right. Learn to fucking read or don't reply, not gonna waste my time on people like you who have no intention of making a productive argument. Also considering Minigun was regularly #1 GM, I don't really care where you'd rank him. How many times has Byun got there? Learn to use your fucking brain. He's used the composition like ...twice... in top level play. It hasn't been played against much. No Morrow isn't top 100 either. So this conversation is irrelevant. Minigun (worse than at least 100 tosses) plays against Morrow (worse than at least 100 terrans). Both have the potential to micro and macro a million times better. Once again, learn to use your fucking brain. I can read. Byun has used that against the best protoss players in the world frequently. HerO, Rain, etc etc. There's plenty of VODs to study from, it's not a hard playstyle to copy for top level terrans so they're surely as hell practicing against it. Also WTF does it matter how many times he got there? That's like saying BL/infestor isn't too strong because zerg never gets there. Dumb argument. So Morrow wins vs someone who is as skilled as him. Both players could micro better. Give both better micro. Morrow still wins?
lolwut? Do you know how to think critically? BL/Infestor is easy to get to, so we could see for 6+ months that it was too strong. 99/100 games Terrans play they will never reach this "imba composition you think is imba" because it's way too hard to get to vs good players.
How can you even say that about Morrow when he hasn't even beaten better players who have played against Ravens/Ghosts/Vikings? That's just retarded man. Think how biased and ridiculous you are being right now. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
And bullshit, Byun won that game an hour earlier with far superior micro/macro/positioning. It had nothing to do with the composition.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 08 2013 23:28 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 23:25 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 23:19 TimENT wrote:On February 08 2013 23:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 08 2013 23:10 TimENT wrote:
Minigun.... Hahahahaha I wouldn't even put him top 100 toss in the world. Awesome example there buddy Would you put Morrow in the top 100 terrans? So Byun uses a similar composition (Ghost/viking, sometimes with ravens) in WoL already and nobody beats it. Byun such a scrub right. Learn to fucking read or don't reply, not gonna waste my time on people like you who have no intention of making a productive argument. Also considering Minigun was regularly #1 GM, I don't really care where you'd rank him. How many times has Byun got there? Learn to use your fucking brain. He's used the composition like ...twice... in top level play. It hasn't been played against much. No Morrow isn't top 100 either. So this conversation is irrelevant. Minigun (worse than at least 100 tosses) plays against Morrow (worse than at least 100 terrans). Both have the potential to micro and macro a million times better. Once again, learn to use your fucking brain. I can read. Byun has used that against the best protoss players in the world frequently. HerO, Rain, etc etc. There's plenty of VODs to study from, it's not a hard playstyle to copy for top level terrans so they're surely as hell practicing against it. Also WTF does it matter how many times he got there? That's like saying BL/infestor isn't too strong because zerg never gets there. Dumb argument. So Morrow wins vs someone who is as skilled as him. Both players could micro better. Give both better micro. Morrow still wins? lolwut? Do you know how to think critically? BL/Infestor is easy to get to, so we could see for 6+ months that it was too strong. 99/100 games Terrans play they will never reach this "imba composition you think is imba" because it's way too hard to get to vs good players. How can you even say that about Morrow when he hasn't even beaten better players who have played against Ravens/Ghosts/Vikings? That's just retarded man. Think how biased and ridiculous you are being right now. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL And bullshit, Byun won that game an hour earlier with far superior micro/macro/positioning. It had nothing to do with the composition.
BL/infestor isn't easy to get to when all protoss does is 3 base all in. Which is the case. If it'd been like that from the start, would you be here saying "BL/infestor isn't imba, it's just so hard to get to that nobody knows how to play against it"? Currently protoss is at its strongest in PvT during the phase where they have a 3/3 templar/colossus/chargelot army against a terran that still hasn't transitioned to mostly ghost/viking. That's where terran loses most games.
Again, read please or don't respond. I said give both players better micro, newly-improved-Morrow would logically still win the game...
If you honestly think that they're not practicing against this composition in korea then I don't know what to tell you.
Also, no. Byun won that game because he survived long enough to get to that composition. HerO had better control even when Byun got that army out but it doesn't really matter at that point. If you don't get lucky storms off on vikings or feedback every ghost (which should never happen), this army melts everything protoss can have. Mass Vikings 1 shot carriers and outrange them. PDD prevents them from taking damage. Ghosts prevent storms. Tempests don't beat vikings in a straight up fight. Terran can constantly scan, protoss observers can't see your army because of scans + ravens.
Tell me what beats it.
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I can't wait to test out these changes :D
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On February 08 2013 22:16 FoXeRpl wrote:
Just to sum up 2 last pages - helbats need to be nerfed, i think every race now is complaining about it.
They are so stupid in TvT....
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It a good patch.
Though Oracle untouched.
Though Hellbat untouched.
Though Viper/Swarm Host untouched
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On February 08 2013 23:50 derpface wrote:
It a good patch.
Though Oracle untouched.
Though Hellbat untouched.
Though Viper/Swarm Host untouched
Widow Mines oneshot Oracles now, which is definitely important for TvP
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Austria24417 Posts
I'm all for more overpowered shit for every race... just give everybody overpowered shit. It worked for BW.
I'd love it if every unit could be a threat if used correctly. But in WoL, some units just completely edge out others. I'd like it if HotS could kinda weaken this hard countering. That would, imo, lead to more variety and better expression of skill.
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On February 08 2013 15:43 Xain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 15:31 mongoose22 wrote:On February 08 2013 15:04 Ironsights wrote:
ok...dumb question maybe, but having read all 9 pages I couldn't find the answer and I don't have a beta to test this:
How does the widow mine effect Immortals? If the unstable payload is effected by hardened shields, then does the new damage change the total dealt?
Basically, I am wondering about the relationship of immortals to widow miens...if the mines CAN successfully defend tanks from immortals, I feel that mech would be much closer to viable...
anyoen clue me in? Please and thanks. The most straightforward result would be, the missile takes 35 shields off first, then does 125 damage after that. So, for an Immortal with more than 35 shields, it'd take 35 shield damage, then the Hardened Shields effect would kick in and it'd take 10 damage after that, for a total of 45 effective damage. For Immortals with 35 shields or less, the missile's shield bonus would wipe away the Immortal's remaining shields, and then the Immortal would take the 125 damage to HP, for a total of 125-160 effective damage, depending on remaining shields. That is actually not correct. The widow mine bypass the immortal's shields.
Ah, the missile is considered as a spell. That'd be my bad as someone without beta access. I'd guess that the damage would act like it would against any other Protoss unit, then, where it'd take 35 off shields and then apply 125 to shields and armor.
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On February 08 2013 23:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I'm all for more overpowered shit for every race... just give everybody overpowered shit. It worked for BW.
I'd love it if every unit could be a threat if used correctly. But in WoL, some units just completely edge out others. I'd like it if HotS could kinda weaken this hard countering. That would, imo, lead to more variety and better expression of skill.
No man, we need more splash, hard countering, lazers and insta-gibbing whole armies.
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so what's the actual use of overlord speed on t1? you're getting a lair quickly anyway in every matchup, I just don't see any particular benefits from this change. sacrificing tech speed to get an easier scout doesn't look like a good trade to me. (and early game scouting isn't that big problem for zerg. but please correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Skytoss issue still unadressed and they nerf fungal again. What.
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I am really curious, was there ever a patch that changed widow mines damage to single target only? The current one has splash damage, am I correct?
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On February 08 2013 10:11 Tenks wrote:
Does anyone know how the Widow Mine's +shield damage is calculated? Does it pretty much instantly remove the 35 shields and then proceed to do it's damage? Because if it does it's payload and then does 35 shield damage ontop of it the only thing that effects are shots to Carriers and Colossus :/
As a Terran player I was really hoping for some kind of Hellbat nerf. I simply cannot find the will to log into the beta knowing I may roll a TvT which quickly became the stupidest matchup (worse than Reaper wars, imo) since the Hellbat drop build.
It would be pretty dumb if the shield dmg takes place after the default dmg.
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People really need to calm down; this is a different game entirely and new changes need to be addressed. No one seems to remember how 'stupidly designed' WoL was when it was in beta (6 supply proxy thor rushes, 1 collo rushes, voidrays were absurdly strong etc) Even a year into the game there were huge gaping disparities with old blue flame hellions melting scvs in 1 second. Give it time
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On February 09 2013 00:44 Pazuzu wrote:
People really need to calm down; this is a different game entirely and new changes need to be addressed. No one seems to remember how 'stupidly designed' WoL was when it was in beta (6 supply proxy thor rushes, 1 collo rushes, voidrays were absurdly strong etc) Even a year into the game there were huge gaping disparities with old blue flame hellions melting scvs in 1 second. Give it time
and this justifies to make the same mistake AGAIN?
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On February 08 2013 23:43 habeck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 22:16 FoXeRpl wrote:
Just to sum up 2 last pages - helbats need to be nerfed, i think every race now is complaining about it. They are so stupid in TvT....
That they are stronger and less mobile in their bio form and weaker and more mobile in their mech form pretty much sums up the attitude some of the developers have towards mech... <.<
Anyways, is this the final change before the launch?
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Remove bio flag from hellbat. Change name back to Battle Hellion. No one wants a bio unit that was supposed to be mech. It also makes hellbats not take as much damage from archons.
This is obvious and we have been telling blizzard this for the past two months or longer, they do nothing.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Avilo, of all the things you could complain about, you complain about the name?
The name hellbat is fine.
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Poland3748 Posts
And now I don't like Widow Mine even more.
Seriously - mines explode, they are not ninja rocket lunchers capable of shooting flyers. I guess it's impossible to spot an underground rocket luncher after it shoots 125 worth of damage rocket (on par with scarab) at you. What's even more irritating they are now strongly anti-protoss. Imagine terran engineers: there is Zerg menace around so it's only logical to optimize our weaponry against Protoss.
Please just make them spider mines build in factory with 1/4 supply or s.t.
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On February 09 2013 01:38 Qikz wrote:
Avilo, of all the things you could complain about, you complain about the name?
The name hellbat is fine.
blizzard changed the colour of some upgrade to blue and suddenly it became a problem. Its in the details!
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On February 09 2013 01:38 Qikz wrote:
Avilo, of all the things you could complain about, you complain about the name?
The name hellbat is fine.
come to think of it, why is it called a "bat"? And why were firebats called "bats"?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 09 2013 01:38 nimdil wrote:
And now I don't like Widow Mine even more.
Seriously - mines explode, they are not ninja rocket lunchers capable of shooting flyers. I guess it's impossible to spot an underground rocket luncher after it shoots 125 worth of damage rocket (on par with scarab) at you. What's even more irritating they are now strongly anti-protoss. Imagine terran engineers: there is Zerg menace around so it's only logical to optimize our weaponry against Protoss.
Please just make them spider mines build in factory with 1/4 supply or s.t.
They're not strongly anti protoss it's just before widow mines were completely pointless against protoss. Like there was no point ever building them as they didn't do any damage. Atleast with +against shields they may actually be able to be useful.
It's the only way they could buff them without making them super super good against zerg and terran where they're in a good place right now.
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On February 09 2013 00:40 dynwar7 wrote:
I am really curious, was there ever a patch that changed widow mines damage to single target only? The current one has splash damage, am I correct?
Widow Mine has splash.
I think you might think about Seeker Missile that got changed to single target only than back to splash.
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On February 09 2013 01:38 Qikz wrote:
Avilo, of all the things you could complain about, you complain about the name?
The name hellbat is fine.
He also complained about the Pneumatized Carapace "buff". lol
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I wonder if they are talking to Korean pros
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On February 09 2013 02:23 Rulker wrote:
I wonder if they are talking to Korean pros
Of course they are...David Kim is from Korea
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TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs.
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On February 09 2013 02:27 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:23 Rulker wrote:
I wonder if they are talking to Korean pros Of course they are...David Kim is from Korea
DB from America and he doesn't listen to TL
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WHAT!!!!!! they are still nerfing infestors that you cant even use anymore!
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New patch incoming:
Hellbat: -5 damage vs golden units.
Widow mine: +15 damage against overlords spreading creep.
Oracle: - 15 Shields when flying above a marine.
Marine: Shoots with two Rifles when their enemy has 5 or more legs.
But in all seriousness, +damage to shields only? That is so far away from making any sense...
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On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs.
Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea?
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On February 08 2013 10:07 Ksi wrote:
The fact that Blizzard is now resorting to giving bonus damage vs very, very specific unit types seems like a step in the wrong direction for how they should approach balance. It seems a little too conservative in one sense (making mild damage buffs vs. specific targets rather than reworking the units as a whole), but also a bit too complicated in another sense. I'd really hate to see us 5 patches down the line with every unit having a bunch of extremely specific +damage modifiers.
Well, toss is too strong, so there have to be toss only adjustments.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 09 2013 02:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:27 Arco wrote:On February 09 2013 02:23 Rulker wrote:
I wonder if they are talking to Korean pros Of course they are...David Kim is from Korea DB from America and he doesn't listen to TL
He's also not a balance designer.
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On February 09 2013 02:39 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:07 Ksi wrote:
The fact that Blizzard is now resorting to giving bonus damage vs very, very specific unit types seems like a step in the wrong direction for how they should approach balance. It seems a little too conservative in one sense (making mild damage buffs vs. specific targets rather than reworking the units as a whole), but also a bit too complicated in another sense. I'd really hate to see us 5 patches down the line with every unit having a bunch of extremely specific +damage modifiers. Well, toss is too strong, so there have to be toss only adjustments.
To be fair, he could just as well be referring to the spore crawler buff vs mutalisks and stray overlords.
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On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea?
If you've played the iEchoic 2port banshee/hellion build you'd know the answer to this question.
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On February 09 2013 02:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea? If you've played the iEchoic 2port banshee/hellion build you'd know the answer to this question.
I actually beat Echoic a couple months ago in beta! Reapers just GOT THERE!
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I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever.
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On February 09 2013 02:44 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea? If you've played the iEchoic 2port banshee/hellion build you'd know the answer to this question. I actually beat Echoic a couple months ago in beta! Reapers just GOT THERE!
I used to use that old build of his for months--it was awesome. But when it was most popular, so many Viking wars on the ground lol
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Can't they balance the Tank so the siege mode is great at dealing against light/bio with splash damage, and the mobile mode great at dealing with armored/mech with a sort of piercing armor single shot (with higher armor damage than it currently does)??
It kind of works this way already but maybe they should emphasize it.
As a Protoss, I feel mobile tanks should destroy everything I got but zealot and immortals, and Zealots should get destroyed by splash. I think it would be an interesting dynamic, I miss the marines/tanks play vs Z.
Protoss air would still be a problem though
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wow lol...these are interesting. The widowmine damage to shields is DEFINITELY a weird one...not complaining though. They're really trying to making mech work
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Can't they balance the Tank so the siege mode is great at dealing against light/bio with splash damage, and the mobile mode great at dealing with armored/mech with a sort of piercing armor single shot (with higher armor damage than it currently does)??
One thing that might help would be if unsieged Tanks had their attack changed from 15 damage with a cooldown of 1.04 (14.4 dps), to 8 damage with a cooldown of .5 (16 dps). It'd be a very minor damage buff vs most units...with one exception. It would make unsieged Tanks shred Immortal Hardened Shields. They'd go from on 9.6 dps vs hardened shields to 16, which is a really substantial buff (and unsieged Tanks outrange Immortals as well).
Not that you'd ever get Tanks specifically to counter Immortals, that'd be dumb. But if you did have a tank heavy composition and Toss makes a shitload of Immortals, Terran could unsiege a few of them and might not get stomped as hard.
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On February 08 2013 10:29 avilo wrote:
...
Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
...
What are these "pro forums" you refer to?
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On February 09 2013 03:26 xxjcdentonxx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:29 avilo wrote:
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Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
... What are these "pro forums" you refer to? Probably blizzard hots progamers forum.
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I had missed the five-seconds charge time for the seeker missile. It doesn't really seem to make any sense at the pro level.
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On February 09 2013 03:40 WigglingSquid wrote:
I had missed the five-seconds charge time for the seeker missile. It doesn't really seem to make any sense at the pro level.
strange, I've seen Ravens getting a ton of use in lategame, especially lategame TvP.
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time flies, things change, skipping all the comments about bad/good patch. I know that Blizzard are doing a good job, they are working hard - that's what counts for me. Someday the game is balances and you know why? Everybody including Blizzard wants it
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Ah well. Time to go back to BW for a while
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So I don't play much tvt, but can someone tell me why widow mines doesn't work vs hellbat drops? It works against any other kind of drop or air harass, so i can't imagine why it wouldn't.
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On February 09 2013 01:38 Qikz wrote:
Avilo, of all the things you could complain about, you complain about the name?
The name hellbat is fine.
I was making a subtle joke.
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On February 09 2013 04:05 Excludos wrote:
So I don't play much tvt, but can someone tell me why widow mines doesn't work vs hellbat drops? It works against any other kind of drop or air harass, so i can't imagine why it wouldn't.
I don't know, I've been thinking of it too, since the medivac needs to drop the hellbats right next to the minerals...rather than at the edge out of sight (Such as for hellions)
and if at least you can guess correctly... 2 mine shots kill a medivac
and you'll probably have like 4-6 by then depending on what you do?
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Hi everyone,
We will shortly be bringing the beta down this evening to make the balance changes listed below. Thanks again for all the great feedback you've provided while testing Heart of the Swarm. We hope to see you testing these changes and sharing your input soon!
Protoss
Oracle
-The duration for Envision has been increased from 30 to 60 seconds.
Terran
Widow Mine
-The primary target damage for Sentinel Missiles has been increased from 125 to 125 +35 vs. Shields.
Zerg
Hatchery
-The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now only requires a Hatchery.
Infestor
-The projectile speed for Fungal Growth has been reduced from 15 to 12.
Spore Crawler
-The weapon damage for Acid Spew has been increased from 15 to 15 + 15 vs. Biological.
doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. spore change will be helpful for defending the first like 6 or so mutas but i see it having very quickly diminishing returns. projectile speed is whatever. widow mine change seems kind of contrived but i can't see it ruining the match-up or anything, guess we'll see. envision is whatever. they say overlord speed is at hatch tech to make scouting easier but i can't see people choosing to get it early enough on over something like ling speed or even burrow for it to matter with regard to scouting. the only way i can see this coming into play is if the zerg is intending to go drop play from the start, then maybe it could conceivably be useful to start this at a non-morphing hatch before lair is finished, but it's not like i've mathed the particulars of that out.
sooo, i guess we basically have the game that is launching for the most part? these are really, really conservative balance changes. stuff like overlord speed doesn't even address an existing problem in my view.
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On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea?
If they rush Hellbats, you have to rush 1-1-1 & you'll only have 1 viking by the time their hellbats arrive. It takes several shots to take down a medivac and they are speed boosted, so you won't deny the first drop.
You will have sacrificed economy to protect against it & you have 4 hellbats you still need to kill while your mineral line is in serious danger. Its a fine strategy mid game. But relatively, useless early game. You'll still either end up slightly behind or just dead.
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On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever.
+damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember).
+damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units.
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edit: oh you were talking about archons
if not, you're wrong.
spores will only hit air
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On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:
+damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember).
+damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units.
Not quite, if a protoss is out of shields then it doesnt effect protoss any more then anyone else. That said it is a buff that only affects one matchup.
Only one race has biological air units (and spores can only hit air).
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On February 09 2013 04:16 nottapro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea? If they rush Hellbats, you have to rush 1-1-1 & you'll only have 1 viking by the time their hellbats arrive. It takes several shots to take down a medivac and they are speed boosted, so you won't deny the first drop. You will have sacrificed economy to protect against it & you have 4 hellbats you still need to kill while your mineral line is in serious danger. Its a fine strategy mid game. But relatively, useless early game. You'll still either end up slightly behind or just dead.
The point of an early Viking is to prevent them from safely picking up hellbats back and forth.
Its cheaper (gas wise) than a medivac and you will have your own hell(bats/ions) as well combined with marine support.
Split, force them to focus on individual marines, don't clump.
The goal isn't to "counter" Hellbats with vikings--it's called tactics.
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On February 09 2013 03:29 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 03:26 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 08 2013 10:29 avilo wrote:
...
Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
... What are these "pro forums" you refer to? Probably blizzard hots progamers forum.
What? There is a private forum on battle.net for progamers to discuss HOTS? AVILO has access to it? Explain.
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Does anyone even know how +shield damage works yet? Or have they added it as a unit attribute? If it is still not a unit attribute then how it works is a huge question.
Does that mean any unit that has shields among it's stats takes the full damage (ie works like if shields were a unit attribute)?
Or does it still only do the basic damage if a unit already lost shields?
What if the target has some shields left but less than the difference of the bonus? Follow up to that one: what is the order of operations if it is intended that the bonus only damages shields specifically but there are not enough shields for it to go into?
Could this lead to a situation where a unit would have been better off with no shield left rather than the sliver of shield it might have had when hit? Or does this damage potentially have an anti-synergy with EMP?
At the end of the day it boils down to this: Does a protoss unit with 130 health and no shields die when hit? What about 130 health and 5 shields?
And finally, does it have any noteworthy interaction with an immortal's hardened shields? Or are those missiles magic damage anyway and I'm just being a no-hots experience noob?
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On February 09 2013 04:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 nottapro wrote:On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea? If they rush Hellbats, you have to rush 1-1-1 & you'll only have 1 viking by the time their hellbats arrive. It takes several shots to take down a medivac and they are speed boosted, so you won't deny the first drop. You will have sacrificed economy to protect against it & you have 4 hellbats you still need to kill while your mineral line is in serious danger. Its a fine strategy mid game. But relatively, useless early game. You'll still either end up slightly behind or just dead. The point of an early Viking is to prevent them from safely picking up hellbats back and forth. Its cheaper (gas wise) than a medivac and you will have your own hell(bats/ions) as well combined with marine support. Split, force them to focus on individual marines, don't clump. The goal isn't to "counter" Hellbats with vikings--it's called tactics.
I know, I am not saying it's an incorrect counter. The way the game is designed, it is one of the only counters. It still sucks though. For Terran TvT & TvP the first 7-8 minutes of a terran opening is pigeon holed into hard countering a build order loss, that leads to really exploitive gameplay.
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On February 09 2013 04:47 Irrelevant Label wrote:
Does anyone even know how +shield damage works yet? Or have they added it as a unit attribute? If it is still not a unit attribute then how it works is a huge question.
Does that mean any unit that has shields among it's stats takes the full damage (ie works like if shields were a unit attribute)?
Or does it still only do the basic damage if a unit already lost shields?
What if the target has some shields left but less than the difference of the bonus? Follow up to that one: what is the order of operations if it is intended that the bonus only damages shields specifically but there are not enough shields for it to go into?
Could this lead to a situation where a unit would have been better off with no shield left rather than the sliver of shield it might have had when hit? Or does this damage potentially have an anti-synergy with EMP?
At the end of the day it boils down to this: Does a protoss unit with 130 health and no shields die when hit? What about 130 health and 5 shields?
And finally, does it have any noteworthy interaction with an immortal's hardened shields? Or are those missiles magic damage anyway and I'm just being a no-hots experience noob?
it would be completely pointless if they didn't do the shield damage first, so lets presume this is the case. That means they deal 35 shield damage first, if no shield is left no damage is done. If 5 shield is left, 5 damage is done. After that the regular damage hits home.
To answer your question, a unit with 130 hp and a unit with 130 hp and 5 shield will both end up with 5 hp remaining.
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On February 09 2013 04:49 nottapro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 nottapro wrote:On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea? If they rush Hellbats, you have to rush 1-1-1 & you'll only have 1 viking by the time their hellbats arrive. It takes several shots to take down a medivac and they are speed boosted, so you won't deny the first drop. You will have sacrificed economy to protect against it & you have 4 hellbats you still need to kill while your mineral line is in serious danger. Its a fine strategy mid game. But relatively, useless early game. You'll still either end up slightly behind or just dead. The point of an early Viking is to prevent them from safely picking up hellbats back and forth. Its cheaper (gas wise) than a medivac and you will have your own hell(bats/ions) as well combined with marine support. Split, force them to focus on individual marines, don't clump. The goal isn't to "counter" Hellbats with vikings--it's called tactics. I know, I am not saying it's an incorrect counter. The way the game is designed, it is one of the only counters. It still sucks though. For Terran TvT & TvP the first 7-8 minutes of a terran opening is pigeon holed into hard countering a build order loss, that leads to really exploitive gameplay.
Exploitative gameplay is a reaver killing the entire worker line, in one shot, from 9 range.
Ferrying melee units while using speed boosts to close range gaps is not exactly A-Move and is about as tedious as early game bane wars in ZvZ. Not that I approve bane wars in zvz--it's my worse matchup.
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On February 09 2013 04:33 xxjcdentonxx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 03:29 Tuczniak wrote:On February 09 2013 03:26 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 08 2013 10:29 avilo wrote:
...
Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
... What are these "pro forums" you refer to? Probably blizzard hots progamers forum. What? There is a private forum on battle.net for progamers to discuss HOTS? AVILO has access to it? Explain.
Yes, and AVILO has access for reasons beyond my understanding.
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I like the widow mine buff, they are trying to make Mech in TvP work so that's a good step. The other buffs to toss and Zerg really wont change much, the nerf to the speed of the projectile is also needed, but I think that they need to help out Zerg to deal with sky toss. As a Terran player I am willing to go Mech against toss now.
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They need to remove the medivac speed boost aswell as nerf hellbat damage imo. Right now TvZ is broken as hell.
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I think terran need something different to be as strong as the other races in end-game, but not the widows mines.
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On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units.
I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
They couldn't really increase the damage against anything else in fear of them becoming too powerful against zerg and terran.
They're in a nice place against Z and T, but terrible against protoss at the moment as they barely even dent a zealot. By increasing damage against shields it gives them a place in the matchup.
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Is the patch online now? Haven't got HotS myself so I can't tell.
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On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
EMP has + damage to shields. It's far from unprecedented.
Shields is just another 'type' to work with.
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On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues.
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On February 09 2013 05:49 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? EMP has + damage to shields. It's far from unprecedented. Shields is just another 'type' to work with.
Not really, EMP is an ability here we are talking about an attack of a unit doing bonus damage vs a race; the latter is unprecedented.
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On February 09 2013 05:47 Spinoza wrote:
Is the patch online now? Haven't got HotS myself so I can't tell.
Yes it is.
Have to admit, these weren't really changes I was personally looking for.
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On February 09 2013 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues.
It think he meant that this way of balancing is lazy and far from thoughtfull, especially when there is already a system in place they can use ( type of armor ).
I agree with him, it feels like a quick and dirty way to do the job. It just show they don't want to think about it seriously or even worse... + Show Spoiler +that they failed to find a more elegant and proper solution
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On February 09 2013 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues.
Why is it a problem? Well according to you anything memorable is fine so I'm not sure what wouldn't be fine according to your golden rule. Maybe we should have flying elephants in the game because why would that be a problem? Why? You can memorize it and you can always play a different game so why would it be a problem?
And I can still play a different game and that's what I might do. Why would I play a game I have a problem with? Besides who the fuck are you to tell me what I want to play? The nerve of some people here.
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On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
Initially, I had the same reaction. I think I was only worried because I imagined: what if this starts boiling down to memorizing a bunch more rocks, paper and scissors. But it occurred to me that "damage vs. shields" isn't any less reasonable than "damage vs. armor". It really seems like something most explosives would do!
On that note, damage vs. biological is nothing new, but it would be nice if zerg acid would make up its mind on how it affects things.
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In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history.
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On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history.
It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
EDIT: Nevermind it seems it is and I completely missed it downloading.
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On February 09 2013 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues.
By the time LotV comes around, every single attack in the game will do different damage to every unit in the game. Given enough time, people will still be able to memorize that. But is that really where people want balance to be headed?
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I can't wait to be able to see what my oponent is doing for 60 seconds! xD
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On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take.
The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented.
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On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented.
Mr ghost wants a word with you.
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Again
+xx vs. shield is not bonus again an armored type.
Protoss life will not take the +35 bonus damage, but only 125 damage. Only the shield take +35 damage.
It's like the baneling's bonus damage to "Buildings"
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On February 09 2013 06:09 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues. Why is it a problem? Well according to you anything memorable is fine so I'm not sure what wouldn't be fine according to your golden rule. Maybe we should have flying elephants in the game because why would that be a problem? Why? You can memorize it and you can always play a different game so why would it be a problem? And I can still play a different game and that's what I might do. Why would I play a game I have a problem with? Besides who the fuck are you to tell me what I want to play? The nerve of some people here.
I did not tell you what you have to do and btw who are you to talk to me like that?
Maybe i was not clear enough. To add 1 or 2 spells/attacks per race, which are just vs a certain race won´t hurt the game. Sure if it gets too much its stupid.
saying that i am still disappointed, that blizzard is not able to patch the main problems. I can´t believe they still don´t see it. These "smaller" changes can be done later...
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On February 09 2013 04:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:33 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 09 2013 03:29 Tuczniak wrote:On February 09 2013 03:26 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 08 2013 10:29 avilo wrote:
...
Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
... What are these "pro forums" you refer to? Probably blizzard hots progamers forum. What? There is a private forum on battle.net for progamers to discuss HOTS? AVILO has access to it? Explain. Yes, and AVILO has access for reasons beyond my understanding.
Just goes to show what Avilo says about how incompetent Blizzard is.
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On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented.
How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique.
The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix.
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Good stuff.. they are moving in the right direction.
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On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix.
EMP deals 100 damage to shields.... this does 35...
Um....
Uh....
???????????????????????????????????????????
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On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix.
There is a difference between bonus damage vs. shields and bonus damage vs. Protoss. While only Protoss units can have shields (which can still change. Defensive Matrix in SC1 effectively gave individual Terran units shields), not all Protoss units always have shields. The extra damage won't affect a Protoss unit that has run out of shields, for example. Whereas a damage bonus vs Protoss will always affect any Protoss unit, no matter what.
Personally, I think this "breaks the foundation of the game" stuff is hyperbolic nonsense. Now, I don't think that it's good to resort to damage bonuses that are highly specific to a race (though ultimately, I don't find it to be so different compared to spells that are highly specific to a race, so long as the unit itself is not race-specific). But there's a difference between "not good" and "utterly unacceptable."
And I find your slippery slope argument to be similarly hyperbolic. Having a bonus vs. shields doesn't mean that they'd start modifying research times or damage bonuses vs. specific units. By that logic, giving a flexible damage bonus at all (rather than SC1's global "all concussive does 25% vs small" style) inevitably leads to units with individual damage bonuses against other specific units.
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On February 09 2013 07:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix. EMP deals 100 damage to shields.... this does 35... Um.... Uh.... ???????????????????????????????????????????
EMP is a unit ability and not a unit attack. EMP only deals damage to shields and not to the armor. EMP deals no damage at all to zerg or terran. EMP removes only energy and shields which are both "energy" in essence and are both rechargeable. EMP is not a unit damaging attack again.
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On February 09 2013 08:03 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 07:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix. EMP deals 100 damage to shields.... this does 35... Um.... Uh.... ??????????????????????????????????????????? EMP is a unit ability and not a unit attack. EMP only deals damage to shields and not to the armor. EMP deals no damage at all to zerg or terran. EMP removes only energy and shields which are both "energy" in essence and are both rechargeable. EMP is not a unit damaging attack again.
They both only deal damage to shields.... That's it.
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On February 09 2013 08:02 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix. There is a difference between bonus damage vs. shields and bonus damage vs. Protoss. While only Protoss units can have shields (which can still change. Defensive Matrix in SC1 effectively gave individual Terran units shields), not all Protoss units always have shields. The extra damage won't affect a Protoss unit that has run out of shields, for example. Whereas a damage bonus vs Protoss will always affect any Protoss unit, no matter what. Personally, I think this "breaks the foundation of the game" stuff is hyperbolic nonsense. Now, I don't think that it's good to resort to damage bonuses that are highly specific to a race (though ultimately, I don't find it to be so different compared to spells that are highly specific to a race, so long as the unit itself is not race-specific). But there's a difference between "not good" and "utterly unacceptable." And I find your slippery slope argument to be similarly hyperbolic. Having a bonus vs. shields doesn't mean that they'd start modifying research times or damage bonuses vs. specific units. By that logic, giving a flexible damage bonus at all (rather than SC1's global "all concussive does 25% vs small" style) inevitably leads to units with individual damage bonuses against other specific units.
The thing is we DO have units with individual damage bonuses against other specific units. All the +bonus vs light, armored, massive, psionic, biological is actually that. However this is now a new ground with +damage vs race which for me is way over the line.
EDIT: Just a couple of final words. With all the bonus vs unit type and then vs race (because unit type was not enough) and maybe later research time modification vs each race (which indeed might be a slippery slope argument) at the end of the day, there is one thing that is true regardless: There must to be a line somewhere. For me Blizzard is way over the line with the spore and mine changes.
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On February 09 2013 08:08 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 08:02 NicolBolas wrote:On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix. There is a difference between bonus damage vs. shields and bonus damage vs. Protoss. While only Protoss units can have shields (which can still change. Defensive Matrix in SC1 effectively gave individual Terran units shields), not all Protoss units always have shields. The extra damage won't affect a Protoss unit that has run out of shields, for example. Whereas a damage bonus vs Protoss will always affect any Protoss unit, no matter what. Personally, I think this "breaks the foundation of the game" stuff is hyperbolic nonsense. Now, I don't think that it's good to resort to damage bonuses that are highly specific to a race (though ultimately, I don't find it to be so different compared to spells that are highly specific to a race, so long as the unit itself is not race-specific). But there's a difference between "not good" and "utterly unacceptable." And I find your slippery slope argument to be similarly hyperbolic. Having a bonus vs. shields doesn't mean that they'd start modifying research times or damage bonuses vs. specific units. By that logic, giving a flexible damage bonus at all (rather than SC1's global "all concussive does 25% vs small" style) inevitably leads to units with individual damage bonuses against other specific units. The thing is we DO have units with individual damage bonuses against other specific units. All the +bonus vs light, armored, massive, psionic, biological is actually that. However this is now a new ground with +damage vs race which for me is way over the line. EDIT: Just a couple of final words. With all the bonus vs unit type and then vs race (because unit type was not enough) and maybe later research time modification vs each race (which indeed might be a slippery slope argument) at the end of the day, there is one thing that is true regardless: There must to be a line somewhere. For me Blizzard is way over the line with the spore and mine changes.
When I see +35 damage vs Protoss in a patch note, I will agree with you. But +35 damage vs shields is perfectly acceptable. Who knows, in legacy of the void they might give reapers plasma shields. At which point widow mines do bonus damage to reapers.
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On February 09 2013 08:03 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 07:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix. EMP deals 100 damage to shields.... this does 35... Um.... Uh.... ??????????????????????????????????????????? EMP is a unit ability and not a unit attack. EMP only deals damage to shields and not to the armor. EMP deals no damage at all to zerg or terran. EMP removes only energy and shields which are both "energy" in essence and are both rechargeable. EMP is not a unit damaging attack again.
The WM 'attack' is considered an ability as it isn't affected by armor nor things like hardened shell. Seeing as we are talking specifically about the +35 dmg to shields, that doesn't do damage to the armor, nor to terran and zerg.
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Yeah, + damage vs shields and + damage vs protoss is very different. Because it will do reduced damage once the shields are gone.
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I understand that some people are a little lost about the overlord speed, but I actually think that overlord speed was moved to hatch tech for zergs to be able to deal with widow mines more effectively.
Muta ling bane is not cost effective vs mines; but once you have overlords floating around it becomes a different story.
I hope the spore changes in combination with the infestor nerf is sufficient to prevent zvz from being a muta vs muta war.
Unlike what some people are saying; I believe it makes a huge difference; it's usually the first few mutas that make the difference vs the non-muta player.
Only thing that is missing is a hydra buff vs air (not vs ground). Once that is done, I think the skytoss issue vs zerg will be fixed.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 09 2013 08:44 DeCoup wrote:
Yeah, + damage vs shields and + damage vs protoss is very different. Because it will do reduced damage once the shields are gone.
Mechanically it is different, philosophically it is not the case.
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On February 09 2013 09:06 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 08:44 DeCoup wrote:
Yeah, + damage vs shields and + damage vs protoss is very different. Because it will do reduced damage once the shields are gone. Mechanically it is different, philosophically it is not the case.
No they are not the same philosophically either. Blizzard has often used damage modifiers to tweak balance this is no different
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On February 09 2013 09:06 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 08:44 DeCoup wrote:
Yeah, + damage vs shields and + damage vs protoss is very different. Because it will do reduced damage once the shields are gone. Mechanically it is different, philosophically it is not the case.
Then why are people not in arms of the +100 AoE damage to protoss that Ghosts have?
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On February 09 2013 09:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 09:06 Whitewing wrote:On February 09 2013 08:44 DeCoup wrote:
Yeah, + damage vs shields and + damage vs protoss is very different. Because it will do reduced damage once the shields are gone. Mechanically it is different, philosophically it is not the case. Then why are people not in arms of the +100 AoE damage to protoss that Ghosts have?
people like to whine, no matter what the patch is, there is always a group that decides that it is horrible and that typically say "I aint buying HOTS bliz now"
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On February 09 2013 09:32 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 09:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 09:06 Whitewing wrote:On February 09 2013 08:44 DeCoup wrote:
Yeah, + damage vs shields and + damage vs protoss is very different. Because it will do reduced damage once the shields are gone. Mechanically it is different, philosophically it is not the case. Then why are people not in arms of the +100 AoE damage to protoss that Ghosts have? people like to whine, no matter what the patch is, there is always a group that decides that it is horrible and that typically say "I aint buying HOTS bliz now"
I know that--but I do understand their contempt. Their mistake is that they don't realize *why* they're upset.
An EMP shutting down shields makes sense flavor wise. So when a Ghost/Science Vessel blasts an EMP and drains all shields and energy it makes complete sense because that's what we imagine an EMP doing.
A missile shot from the ground does not make sense as isolated shield damage. Let's say for arguments sake that that missile drains 35 shields instead of deals 35 damage to shields. Why doesn't it affect energy the way emp does? Even Feedback "drains" shields (mostly because shields take the damage first when you cast feedback on a protoss unit) so the relationship makes sense.
Let me put it this way. If instead of saying "+35 damage to shields" it simply cast a tiny emp at the target location draining 35 shields and 35 energy--people would not freak out because it would make sense to them.
They mistakenly think that their problem with it is that it is unprecedented when in reality its the weakest of the "anti-shield" abilities out there. The problem they have is that they can't grokk why it works the way it does.
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We can view the spore bonus damage as a bonus damage vs biological. We can view the +shield damage of the WM as a bonus damage vs shields. The truth is the spore now has bonus damage vs zerg and the WM has bonus damage vs Protoss. "We already have armor modifiers then why not race modifiers" is not a valid argument.
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On February 09 2013 09:50 i)awn wrote:
We can view the spore bonus damage as a bonus damage vs biological. We can view the +shield damage of the WM as a bonus damage vs shields. The truth is the spore now has bonus damage vs zerg and the WM has bonus damage vs Protoss. "We already have armor modifiers then why not race modifiers" is not a valid argument.
Technically, this is not true.
In 2v2, a P/Z team can use phoenixes to lift up biological units that are in range of a Spore Crawler and the Spore Crawler *will* attack those biological units with the extra +15 damage whether or not the lifted unit is a zealot or a marauder.
The WM also deals no extra damage if you've depleted the units shields (say with an EMP)
Even EMP is much closer in execution as an anti-protoss effect.
So no, these are not anti-race effects.
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On February 09 2013 09:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 09:32 SuperYo1000 wrote:On February 09 2013 09:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 09:06 Whitewing wrote:On February 09 2013 08:44 DeCoup wrote:
Yeah, + damage vs shields and + damage vs protoss is very different. Because it will do reduced damage once the shields are gone. Mechanically it is different, philosophically it is not the case. Then why are people not in arms of the +100 AoE damage to protoss that Ghosts have? people like to whine, no matter what the patch is, there is always a group that decides that it is horrible and that typically say "I aint buying HOTS bliz now" I know that--but I do understand their contempt. Their mistake is that they don't realize *why* they're upset. An EMP shutting down shields makes sense flavor wise. So when a Ghost/Science Vessel blasts an EMP and drains all shields and energy it makes complete sense because that's what we imagine an EMP doing. A missile shot from the ground does not make sense as isolated shield damage. Let's say for arguments sake that that missile drains 35 shields instead of deals 35 damage to shields. Why doesn't it affect energy the way emp does? Even Feedback "drains" shields (mostly because shields take the damage first when you cast feedback on a protoss unit) so the relationship makes sense. Let me put it this way. If instead of saying "+35 damage to shields" it simply cast a tiny emp at the target location draining 35 shields and 35 energy--people would not freak out because it would make sense to them. They mistakenly think that their problem with it is that it is unprecedented when in reality its the weakest of the "anti-shield" abilities out there. The problem they have is that they can't grokk why it works the way it does.
I do agree with what you have said, there is one more thing I would like to add. EMP does not deal damage against zerg or Terran. It does no damage at all. So we don't have one unit that is doing different damage to different races. You can say that it deals 0 damage to one race and 100 to the other but in practice the EMP is not being used at all vs zerg or Terran (not for the sake of damaging at least); WM is actually doing damage vs Terran and vs Zerg and it's actually being used like any other damaging unit that deals damage vs other units regardless of race. Except now it is dealing damage vs all units with some extra vs Protoss. So what does that mean? That means that we can have units that deal more damage vs specific races.
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On February 09 2013 09:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 09:50 i)awn wrote:
We can view the spore bonus damage as a bonus damage vs biological. We can view the +shield damage of the WM as a bonus damage vs shields. The truth is the spore now has bonus damage vs zerg and the WM has bonus damage vs Protoss. "We already have armor modifiers then why not race modifiers" is not a valid argument. Technically, this is not true. In 2v2, a P/Z team can use phoenixes to lift up biological units that are in range of a Spore Crawler and the Spore Crawler *will* attack those biological units with the extra +15 damage whether or not the lifted unit is a zealot or a marauder. The WM also deals no extra damage if you've depleted the units shields (say with an EMP) Even EMP is much closer in execution as an anti-protoss effect. So no, these are not anti-race effects.
Well the tag doesn't say +bonus vs Protoss or +bonus vs Zerg you might as well use that argument. I'm not really just arguing for the sake of labeling things I'm arguing for the sake of unit damage modifiers now having specific race modifiers which is over the line for me not because I like to worship some line but because this approach has significant implications in terms of match up design. In different match ups units are actually not the same ones anymore; they are modified for each match up which is a poor design. At the end of the day things will work and people might have no problem with it and they are free. I'm not forcing people to hate that balance approach; who am I to tell them what to like?
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On February 09 2013 10:07 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 09:57 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 09:50 i)awn wrote:
We can view the spore bonus damage as a bonus damage vs biological. We can view the +shield damage of the WM as a bonus damage vs shields. The truth is the spore now has bonus damage vs zerg and the WM has bonus damage vs Protoss. "We already have armor modifiers then why not race modifiers" is not a valid argument. Technically, this is not true. In 2v2, a P/Z team can use phoenixes to lift up biological units that are in range of a Spore Crawler and the Spore Crawler *will* attack those biological units with the extra +15 damage whether or not the lifted unit is a zealot or a marauder. The WM also deals no extra damage if you've depleted the units shields (say with an EMP) Even EMP is much closer in execution as an anti-protoss effect. So no, these are not anti-race effects. Well the tag doesn't say +bonus vs Protoss or +bonus vs Zerg you might as well use that argument. I'm not really just arguing for the sake of labeling things I'm arguing for the sake of unit damage modifiers now having specific race modifiers which is over the line for me not because I like to worship some line but because this approach has significant implications in terms of match up design. In different match ups units are actually not the same ones anymore; they are modified for each match up which is a poor design. At the end of the day things will work and people might have no problem with it and they are free. I'm not forcing people to hate that balance approach; who am I to tell them what to like?
The thing is, there really is very little room to expand on this "new design approach". Protoss are the only race with a unique health type, which is why the fact that it is +damage vs shields, rather than +damage vs protoss is significant. If it was +damage vs Protoss, then you could imagine, say, +damage vs Terran. But there is no Terran or Zerg equivalent of shields. Maybe more units will be added with +damage vs shields (tbh I kinda hope so, because I'm a bit nostalgic for the BW dynamic where shields went down super quickly), but I don't see how Blizzard can use this approach to do the same for Terran or Zerg. The closest they can get is something like +damage vs bio, which would affect zerg the most but really affects all races.
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There is an equivalent of '+ damage to shields'.
'+ damage to biological/air'.
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Russian Federation9 Posts
You know, this "+ shields" thing is absolutely terrible. And I'm sure blizz will fix that. Yeah, u may compare this with EMP, but (!) EMP has unique beautiful design, that just "drains energy". It is logical, simple and sci-fi based thing. Here we see completely different story: There is a balance hole. They need to fix it, and just abuse all the logic and game philosophy. Why should WM deal more damage against shields? That's weird and stupid.
That's kind of balance fix, that spoils all the story. Better lack in raw linear balance sometimes, but gain better logic in such an epic game.The same way I feel about siege upgrade, it's sweet buff, but terrible step back in terms of uniqueness.
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4713 Posts
I'm not sure why all of you are so up in arms about the extra damage vs specific things like shields or bio, if you need to complain so much about this then where is all the bitching regarding archons? Shouldn't archons technically be the biggest offender here given that it hard counters an entire race (all zerg units are bio)?
Really bonus damage vs specific armor types or affix types is no problem at all for balancing purposes, you guys should actually be complaining at the fact that Blizzard is buffing and nerfing shit left and right based on some of their bad decisions from earlier on.
First Blizzard resolves to nerf infestors, and for good reason, they want to promote better gameplay, however at the same time they also try to buff other zerg units, to encourage more gameplay revolving around them. Thus you end up with the muta buff, to both speed and regen, however now all of a sudden ZvZ becomes a potential mess because catching and killing mutas is near impossible, which leads into the entire clusterfuck of problems we have now where they have ping ponged nerfs and buffs back and forth, ranging from the speed and range of the fungal projectile to now the spore buff.
One might argue that if they hadn't buffed mutas so extremely they wouldn't have had too also try and buff so extremely in other areas, and in fact I would find it totally reasonable to revert the muta speed buff and halve the current regen, it would still leave mutas useful, but they wouldn't be so retardedly strong in ZvZ and you wouldn't need so many stupid other fixes to balance them.
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Am I getting this right people. Are you whining about the WM + shield damage not being a pretty enough solution?! When in ever did "We have a balance issue, the best way to fix it is this" not become the right way of doing it? Do you have a better solution at hand that would effectively do the same thing?
Please. I'd rather have a fun and balanced game as opposed to one which you personally think is "right".
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On February 09 2013 08:56 Ulargg wrote:
I understand that some people are a little lost about the overlord speed, but I actually think that overlord speed was moved to hatch tech for zergs to be able to deal with widow mines more effectively.
Muta ling bane is not cost effective vs mines; but once you have overlords floating around it becomes a different story.
I hope the spore changes in combination with the infestor nerf is sufficient to prevent zvz from being a muta vs muta war.
Unlike what some people are saying; I believe it makes a huge difference; it's usually the first few mutas that make the difference vs the non-muta player.
Only thing that is missing is a hydra buff vs air (not vs ground). Once that is done, I think the skytoss issue vs zerg will be fixed.
Why throw 100/100 early into overlord speed against widow mines when you can build a spore crawler for 125 minerals?
I just can't see a reasonable justification for it being hatch tech. The first 200 gas Zerg uses is crucial in every matchup. Depending how it is used it can win or cost Z the game.
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On February 09 2013 11:25 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 08:56 Ulargg wrote:
I understand that some people are a little lost about the overlord speed, but I actually think that overlord speed was moved to hatch tech for zergs to be able to deal with widow mines more effectively.
Muta ling bane is not cost effective vs mines; but once you have overlords floating around it becomes a different story.
I hope the spore changes in combination with the infestor nerf is sufficient to prevent zvz from being a muta vs muta war.
Unlike what some people are saying; I believe it makes a huge difference; it's usually the first few mutas that make the difference vs the non-muta player.
Only thing that is missing is a hydra buff vs air (not vs ground). Once that is done, I think the skytoss issue vs zerg will be fixed.
The first 200 gas Zerg uses is crucial in every matchup. Depending how it is used it can win or cost Z the game.
Hav u considered that the game might change? You know, cuz it's a different game with new units and therefore new timings, new builds, new everything.
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On February 09 2013 10:35 BobbEr wrote:
You know, this "+ shields" thing is absolutely terrible. And I'm sure blizz will fix that. Yeah, u may compare this with EMP, but (!) EMP has unique beautiful design, that just "drains energy". It is logical, simple and sci-fi based thing. Here we see completely different story: There is a balance hole. They need to fix it, and just abuse all the logic and game philosophy. Why should WM deal more damage against shields? That's weird and stupid.
That's kind of balance fix, that spoils all the story. Better lack in raw linear balance sometimes, but gain better logic in such an epic game.The same way I feel about siege upgrade, it's sweet buff, but terrible step back in terms of uniqueness.
Yeah, it's kind of impossible to disagree with this.
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Thors vs light dmg could also be called vs mutas (not a specific race, a specific unit).
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes.
Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord.
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On February 09 2013 11:57 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord.
Why is there no terran equivalent?
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On February 09 2013 11:57 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord.
Tempest HT + X against Terran is also extremely strong. Have a couple of tempest chip away at the Terran units/buildings and bait him into his death. Haven't found a way to beat it yet.
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On February 09 2013 12:09 Zombo Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 11:57 Crownlol wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord. Why is there no terran equivalent?
Because Terran has no long range air to ground unit and the casters aren't nearly as powerful .
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On February 09 2013 11:47 wcLLg wrote:
Thors vs light dmg could also be called vs mutas (not a specific race, a specific unit).
Banshee, vikings, and pheonix are all light air units as well.
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On February 08 2013 17:48 Avicularia wrote:
The only good change is that of the widow mine.
Zerg cahnges are lame, and ovi speed makes no sense. For oracle, 60 sec is too long.
I guess we'll see one or two more patches before the end of the beta.
So I guess it's time to take care of helbats and zerg aa next patch.
From what I'm reading, I'm guessing it is to enhance Zerg intel to either:
1. Do build order counters
2. Defense against early antiaircraft openers (Viking/phoniex)
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On February 09 2013 12:55 Donger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 11:47 wcLLg wrote:
Thors vs light dmg could also be called vs mutas (not a specific race, a specific unit). Banshee, vikings, and pheonix are all light air units as well.
Vikings are armored...
Not to be a dick or anything, but I don't want a rumor to spread that Vikings take less than 50 damage from an immortal.
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On February 09 2013 12:57 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:48 Avicularia wrote:
The only good change is that of the widow mine.
Zerg cahnges are lame, and ovi speed makes no sense. For oracle, 60 sec is too long.
I guess we'll see one or two more patches before the end of the beta.
So I guess it's time to take care of helbats and zerg aa next patch. From what I'm reading, I'm guessing it is to enhance Zerg intel to either: 1. Do build order counters 2. Defense against early antiaircraft openers (Viking/phoniex)
I thought it was to allow them to run away from momma cores easier?
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On February 08 2013 21:38 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast... What are you trying to prove here? I know hellbat drops are very hard to defend, I've seen many pro players losing so much stuff to that. If all zerg got is 5 roaches then you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. He pulls drones, and you just catch them with speed medivac and drop on them. That's how you do. Oh and hellbats drops come from any amount of base play.
Because you said hellbat drop is GUARANTEED to do damage, directly calling them imba.
Four range 2 units moving at 2.25 speed and conical dps of 15 vs light backed by a medivac with 70mp is imba... Are you trolling?
A queen (which you should already have) and four roaches can do same effin' thing!!!
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So fucking sick of ppl saying bullshit when they really don't know what they're talking about. If you aren't GM or if you haven't win any tournament then just STFU. I've already seen 2 pros using the first 100 or 200 gas on speed overlord in the beginning. If ppl still think it's not necessary, then please, try playing zerg and see for yourself if you need it or not.
It's kind of silly really.
I know I'd trade the overlord speed on WOL instead of speedlings anyday. Be it ZvZ, ZvT, hell even ZvP since i've the most trouble figuring out all their allins.
You know what's worse ? That we would be able to finally survive the early-mid game in ZvP and then blizzard would see that's there something wrong with the Broodfestors that ensues.
It's my only own opinion, but if Blizzard think ZvP is balanced, that's because they're watching the matchup as a whole and not at the specifics times. If we made it through, then blizzard would simply nerf the Broodfestors and we would have got a balanced game. But of course, keep in mind, it's my own opinion.
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On February 09 2013 13:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:38 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast... What are you trying to prove here? I know hellbat drops are very hard to defend, I've seen many pro players losing so much stuff to that. If all zerg got is 5 roaches then you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. He pulls drones, and you just catch them with speed medivac and drop on them. That's how you do. Oh and hellbats drops come from any amount of base play. Because you said hellbat drop is GUARANTEED to do damage, directly calling them imba. Four range 2 units moving at 2.25 speed and conical dps of 15 vs light backed by a medivac with 70mp is imba... Are you trolling? A queen (which you should already have) and four roaches can do same effin' thing!!!
Forcing you to pull drones is doing damage in itself. Not to mention he can outmicro your 4 roaches and a queen. You can't really do shit. You're going to right click the queen onto the medivac and then all 4 battlehellions are going to melt it and then run away. He'll come back 2 minutes later and kill your mineral line.
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So Terran is gonna kill us even harder? Are we seriously not going to do anything about battle hellions only costing 100 minerals and having insane melee dps? Cuz you don't have to be a genius to realize how op it is compared to similar tier units
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These specific damage attack +++ etc changes are just silly. I really hope this doesnt stay in.
Im all for ignoring the 'lets not make things too complicated' thing when it comes to simplifying the game, but this really does make units too complicated, in the wrong way.
It should be unit to unit relationships that are dynamically complicated, not the numbers on their stat sheets.
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They also need to realize that medivacs healing hellbats is quite possibly the dumbest shit they've ever implemented in a game. Oh it transformed into a cone aoe instead of straight line, now it's bio. There's no logic or reasoning other than they want factories used with bio as well. You might as well have Medivacs heal thors too. I'd rather them come back with the 15hp/s upgrade and remove healing from hellbats than keep this.
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The spore and widow mine buff are incredibly inelegant solutions to the problems they are facing.
I am sure they will help balance but I feel like if they had been more bold earlier in the beta with altering design decisions then these band-aid/matchup specific modifiers wouldnt be necessary.
Trying different buffs to mutas, or changing how widow mines function(there were some really neat ideas for widow mines on various forumns) earlier on in a few different ways would have avoided these kind of fixes when it came down to crunchtime.
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On February 09 2013 11:57 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord.
No chance. It's wayyyy more powerful than infestor/broodlord. You actually could have units that could fight and trade relatively effectively vs. that. Lategame skytoss will crush any combination or permutation of zerg units with taking almost no losses. With infestor/broodlord, you were very vulnerable for a long time and vulnerable to counterattacks. Tempest/Carrier/Void not only is more mobile, flying, with greater range, but it becomes so cost efficient after you have about 4 carriers, you can spend the rest of your money on cannons and expos.
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You can't try to fix every issue at the same time... Allow the scientific method its due process. Afterall, this is beta, no point in getting your dick in a twist until a month has gone by from launch and the game is broken.
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People also neglect the fact that the tech tree can also reflect balance changes, if they made it, and this is hypothetical so dont shit a brick, to where the armory was 250/200 with or 200/200 with a longer construct time, or even making battle hellion mode a reasearchable tech, it ultimately delays how soon people can do battle hellion all-in style drops, or perhaps makes it significantly more expensive, thus riskier. To be honest I dont think its a bad approach now that seige mode is free. I feel like the damage and the healing is okay for late game, most people get butthurt because it can happen very quickly into the game (usually between 6-7 minutes is what it seems) People have this "nerf the fuck out of a unit into obvlivion" approach and thats how we lose things like the warhound permanently. Be considerate, maybe theres an alternative approach to making it work. For those who are against Hellbats, they are fun to play with and they add a different dynamic to the game. Maybe we can work on some positive approaches to making them a little more approachable. You certainly dont hear anyone in the late game saying "Man those hellbats are too strong in the late game" its always "Hellbat drop is OP/uncounterable/raped my face."
edit- clarity
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IMO this is a fairly usless update. It does not address any of the major issues in the beta and just seems like a post release patch were blizzard is scared to make any meaningful changes because they might affect the balance.
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i think the +shield change is to help vs immortals in addition to oneshot zealot/stalkers again
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On February 09 2013 13:43 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 13:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 08 2013 21:38 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast... What are you trying to prove here? I know hellbat drops are very hard to defend, I've seen many pro players losing so much stuff to that. If all zerg got is 5 roaches then you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. He pulls drones, and you just catch them with speed medivac and drop on them. That's how you do. Oh and hellbats drops come from any amount of base play. Because you said hellbat drop is GUARANTEED to do damage, directly calling them imba. Four range 2 units moving at 2.25 speed and conical dps of 15 vs light backed by a medivac with 70mp is imba... Are you trolling? A queen (which you should already have) and four roaches can do same effin' thing!!! Forcing you to pull drones is doing damage in itself. Not to mention he can outmicro your 4 roaches and a queen. You can't really do shit. You're going to right click the queen onto the medivac and then all 4 battlehellions are going to melt it and then run away. He'll come back 2 minutes later and kill your mineral line.
So the Zerg loses to the better Terran.
I don't see a problem with this.
No more free lunch.
Everyone has brought up how Zergs get to "just drone up" without repercussion.
Not today.
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On February 09 2013 14:57 sYstim wrote:
i think the +shield change is to help vs immortals in addition to oneshot zealot/stalkers again
I am actually curious. Does the +shield actually do 35 damage to shields or do hardened shields prevent that?
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On February 09 2013 15:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 14:57 sYstim wrote:
i think the +shield change is to help vs immortals in addition to oneshot zealot/stalkers again I am actually curious. Does the +shield actually do 35 damage to shields or do hardened shields prevent that?
In the case of the widow mine the attack would ignore hardened shield, as it is still a spell (think emp damage). If it was added to, say a tank, then I have no idea how blizzard might implement it, but I believe hardened shield would block it by default (like if you made the change in the editor right now).
Edited for clarity.
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SC2 only has two real damage types, spell and non-spell. Things like +bio only change the amount of damage, they never (so far) change the type of damage. So if the attack is a spell, the +shield will be a spell, and if the attack is not, the +shield will not be. Blizzard has never had an attack that is part spell, and part non-spell, so I have my doubts they will start now.
Sorry, I just added this in case it helps someone understand.
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On February 09 2013 15:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 14:57 sYstim wrote:
i think the +shield change is to help vs immortals in addition to oneshot zealot/stalkers again I am actually curious. Does the +shield actually do 35 damage to shields or do hardened shields prevent that?
just tested, it it goes through hardened shields like a knife through butter...
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On February 09 2013 16:03 Digitalis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 15:04 blade55555 wrote:On February 09 2013 14:57 sYstim wrote:
i think the +shield change is to help vs immortals in addition to oneshot zealot/stalkers again I am actually curious. Does the +shield actually do 35 damage to shields or do hardened shields prevent that? just tested, it it goes through hardened shields like a knife through butter...
Ah nice I imagine this would help a bit verse immortals and mech being viable, but I could be wrong as I am no terran player :D
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On February 09 2013 14:27 TheSwagger wrote:
You can't try to fix every issue at the same time... Allow the scientific method its due process. Afterall, this is beta, no point in getting your dick in a twist until a month has gone by from launch and the game is broken.
Sure you can try to fix everything in one go ... but you have to a) think long and hard about what is wrong with the game atm and - most importantly - b) have zero holy cows when you do it. You MUST BE prepared to change everything ... no matter how much you like it or want it in the game. Blizzard has too many holy cows to actually do that and the "scientific method" they use is to "change stuff until the matchups are at 50% winrate (roughly)". That makes sense from a limited perspective, but does it also guarantee a satisfying and fun gameplay in the process? Does it guarantee that things like Medivacs healing Battle Hellions or Widow Mine bonus damage to shields (and no other Terran attack) make sense?
A good and healthy game community STARTS WITH A FUN GAME and only after that has been achieved should you think about the competitive side of things. Sadly Blizzard started with the second step and defined fun as "winning" and "bigger / more explosions".
---
Some people will know Dungeons & Dragons and the producers of this game have split their own community into two factions by releasing a controversial 4th edition a few years ago. They broke with every tradition by making all classes follow the same formula compared to keeping the "Wizards are more powerful but run out of spells quickly while Fighters can swing their sword all day long" principle. Why did they do that? Because people have started whining about "balance" after they started "PvP class comparisons" ... which is kinda pointless in an "us Players against them monsters" game. People were also complaining about "being forced to play a healer" and in the new edition you couldnt really play a pure healer anymore, which means that choice was lost for those who actually LIKE to play the healer.
I feel a similar mindset has been present in the Blizzard development team and this has created a less open gameplay for multiplayer in SC2. You cant play the Terran Siege game anymore and all the promises of Blizzard to make mech viable in TvP have resulted in buffs to some support units which again split the community. Bonus damage to shields and mech units becoming healable are really really terrible decisions which are necessary to keep their house of cards of bad design decisions standing. They really should throw all their holy cows overboard, take a deep breath and try to look at the gameplay objectively ... and then make the necessary changes.
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On February 09 2013 10:44 Excludos wrote:
Am I getting this right people. Are you whining about the WM + shield damage not being a pretty enough solution?! When in ever did "We have a balance issue, the best way to fix it is this" not become the right way of doing it? Do you have a better solution at hand that would effectively do the same thing?
Please. I'd rather have a fun and balanced game as opposed to one which you personally think is "right".
Well, flavor aside, there's the question of good design. Your statement that this is the "best way to fix it" is not a fact in evidence. Does it fix it? Yes. Is it the best way to do so? That requires some evidence.
The point, again aside from flavor, is that when you start getting very specific damage bonuses, the designers are clearly reaching for very particular tools that can lead to over-design. If the primary means you have of fixing a problem is slapping an arbitrary damage bonus on something, then what happens when that something already has a damage bonus on it? Do you put two of them on? Maybe three?
The tools of design need to extend beyond damage bonuses. And there are kinds of damage bonuses that should be off-limits. Personally, I'm fine with bonuses vs biological and shields.
On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:Some people will know Dungeons & Dragons and the producers of this game have split their own community into two factions by releasing a controversial 4th edition a few years ago. They broke with every tradition by making all classes follow the same formula compared to keeping the "Wizards are more powerful but run out of spells quickly while Fighters can swing their sword all day long" principle. Why did they do that? Because people have started whining about "balance" after they started "PvP class comparisons" ... which is kinda pointless in an "us Players against them monsters" game. People were also complaining about "being forced to play a healer" and in the new edition you couldnt really play a pure healer anymore, which means that choice was lost for those who actually LIKE to play the healer.
First, no. Every edition of D&D breaks the base. That's what it does. Every single edition, from AD&D 1st to D&D Next, has split the community. There are still people who think 1e is the best D&D ever and the rest is dumbed down drivel. Every edition is controversial.
Second yes, they broke traditions. But not the ones you claim. The tradition they broke was "Fighters are just pointless meatshields past level 10, while Wizards get to do all of the useful work." They allowed melee classes to actually have the same tactical and strategic depth as spellcasters.
Yes, some people want to play a boring, uncomplicated class. But some of us don't. And some of us who don't also don't want to be forced into playing Wizards just to get combat that's tactically interesting past 10th level. And some of us want our characters to meaningfully contribute past 15th level without being spellcasters.
In 4e I can do that. In 3e/Pathfinder, I can't. So while you can't play your pure healer, I get to play the class I always wanted.
On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:I feel a similar mindset has been present in the Blizzard development team and this has created a less open gameplay for multiplayer in SC2. You cant play the Terran Siege game anymore and all the promises of Blizzard to make mech viable in TvP have resulted in buffs to some support units which again split the community. Bonus damage to shields and mech units becoming healable are really really terrible decisions which are necessary to keep their house of cards of bad design decisions standing. They really should throw all their holy cows overboard, take a deep breath and try to look at the gameplay objectively ... and then make the necessary changes.
It is the "holy cows" (the term is "sacred cow." "Holy cow" is an exclamation) of SC1 that got them into this mess. I suspect if they had their way, Siege Tanks wouldn't even be in SC2. They're only here because they're a popular SC1 unit. We would have had the alpha version of the Thor, which was a big robot thing with a ton of Hp and an AoE barrage special ability.
The difference between 4e and SC2 is this: 4e was different, but it was well designed for it's specific purpose. You may or may not like that purpose, but it does the job it's intending to very well. SC2 is basically SC1 with some different, very foreign feeling stuff bolted on to it. Basically, there are two games fighting in SC2: SC1 and some other game with entirely different units and such. SC2 tries to do it half-way and fails because the middle-of-the-road approach doesn't work.
There are other areas that SC2 fails in, but that's not important for this point.
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On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 14:27 TheSwagger wrote:
You can't try to fix every issue at the same time... Allow the scientific method its due process. Afterall, this is beta, no point in getting your dick in a twist until a month has gone by from launch and the game is broken. Sure you can try to fix everything in one go ... but you have to a) think long and hard about what is wrong with the game atm and - most importantly - b) have zero holy cows when you do it. You MUST BE prepared to change everything ... no matter how much you like it or want it in the game. Blizzard has too many holy cows to actually do that and the "scientific method" they use is to "change stuff until the matchups are at 50% winrate (roughly)". That makes sense from a limited perspective, but does it also guarantee a satisfying and fun gameplay in the process? Does it guarantee that things like Medivacs healing Battle Hellions or Widow Mine bonus damage to shields (and no other Terran attack) make sense? A good and healthy game community STARTS WITH A FUN GAME and only after that has been achieved should you think about the competitive side of things. Sadly Blizzard started with the second step and defined fun as "winning" and "bigger / more explosions". --- Some people will know Dungeons & Dragons and the producers of this game have split their own community into two factions by releasing a controversial 4th edition a few years ago. They broke with every tradition by making all classes follow the same formula compared to keeping the "Wizards are more powerful but run out of spells quickly while Fighters can swing their sword all day long" principle. Why did they do that? Because people have started whining about "balance" after they started "PvP class comparisons" ... which is kinda pointless in an "us Players against them monsters" game. People were also complaining about "being forced to play a healer" and in the new edition you couldnt really play a pure healer anymore, which means that choice was lost for those who actually LIKE to play the healer. I feel a similar mindset has been present in the Blizzard development team and this has created a less open gameplay for multiplayer in SC2. You cant play the Terran Siege game anymore and all the promises of Blizzard to make mech viable in TvP have resulted in buffs to some support units which again split the community. Bonus damage to shields and mech units becoming healable are really really terrible decisions which are necessary to keep their house of cards of bad design decisions standing. They really should throw all their holy cows overboard, take a deep breath and try to look at the gameplay objectively ... and then make the necessary changes.
That feel. Miss old school D&D.
But it had to be done. Video games made people realize fighting was more dynamic than previously thought. A new way needed to be made.
Likewise WoL, has become stale because there was a FIXED method of dealing with X BO.
The excitement is dying from WoL because of the limitation of variables.
Every race SHOULD HAVE a unit or tactic which can do a disproportionate amount to it costs, think reaver drops, lurker ambush and spider mine baiting.
I for one, welcome the dynamism that HotS brings.
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On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 14:27 TheSwagger wrote:
You can't try to fix every issue at the same time... Allow the scientific method its due process. Afterall, this is beta, no point in getting your dick in a twist until a month has gone by from launch and the game is broken. Sure you can try to fix everything in one go ... but you have to a) think long and hard about what is wrong with the game atm and - most importantly - b) have zero holy cows when you do it. You MUST BE prepared to change everything ... no matter how much you like it or want it in the game. Blizzard has too many holy cows to actually do that and the "scientific method" they use is to "change stuff until the matchups are at 50% winrate (roughly)". That makes sense from a limited perspective, but does it also guarantee a satisfying and fun gameplay in the process? Does it guarantee that things like Medivacs healing Battle Hellions or Widow Mine bonus damage to shields (and no other Terran attack) make sense? A good and healthy game community STARTS WITH A FUN GAME and only after that has been achieved should you think about the competitive side of things. Sadly Blizzard started with the second step and defined fun as "winning" and "bigger / more explosions". --- Some people will know Dungeons & Dragons and the producers of this game have split their own community into two factions by releasing a controversial 4th edition a few years ago. They broke with every tradition by making all classes follow the same formula compared to keeping the "Wizards are more powerful but run out of spells quickly while Fighters can swing their sword all day long" principle. Why did they do that? Because people have started whining about "balance" after they started "PvP class comparisons" ... which is kinda pointless in an "us Players against them monsters" game. People were also complaining about "being forced to play a healer" and in the new edition you couldnt really play a pure healer anymore, which means that choice was lost for those who actually LIKE to play the healer. I feel a similar mindset has been present in the Blizzard development team and this has created a less open gameplay for multiplayer in SC2. You cant play the Terran Siege game anymore and all the promises of Blizzard to make mech viable in TvP have resulted in buffs to some support units which again split the community. Bonus damage to shields and mech units becoming healable are really really terrible decisions which are necessary to keep their house of cards of bad design decisions standing. They really should throw all their holy cows overboard, take a deep breath and try to look at the gameplay objectively ... and then make the necessary changes.
Agreed... Blizzard should fix what is wrong with the game first, not the balance. The game is not fun to watch, and streams show it blatantly. The game is almost dead now. Could the guy giving the Stream views statistics tell us how things are doing this month and the last few?
Do you guys really think adding ( and balancing) a few new units will help with the fact that the game is a mess right now? A good zerg gets maxed out in 11 minutes.. players start doing damage (excluding cheese) at around 5 minutes, which leaves only a 6 BLIZZARD minutes window to actually do some harass play. Not long enough, and that is without mentioning how boring those "macro" games are... two deathballs dancing and trying to engage the other one the most efficiently as possible. You're on 5 bases mr.Terran? I dont really give a shit, I've maxed out on 3 with about 70 workers, (you've got 90 SCVs because you play a MACRO style) I've defended your drops, now watch my unkillable 1a protoss deathball slaughter you? Oh you've got a better economy? more bases? I really don't care about that, you'll never re-max fast enough to give a resistance.
I've played PvTs against way stronger opponents than I was, and I've destroyed them with this stupid principle (and un-watchable from a spectator's view). Where's the macro? Where's the map control? Where is the good harassment ( multi-prong engagements is not an harassment)? This game has so few of all of it that most viewers got sick and tired of this.
And I'm sorry for bringing in the truth so harshly.. but with patches like this, with this constant ignoring of the fundamental flaws of this game, we are gonna see the death of this game. Who will actually care about this game in a year or two? Everyone will have moved on, and that's really sad considering the expectations we've been having since 2010. We wanted these OSL moments of the past for SC2, but Koreans have moved on to different games. They don't feel like watching a dumbed-down version of BW with some flashy fireworks and terrible terrible damage.
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On February 09 2013 14:27 TheSwagger wrote:
You can't try to fix every issue at the same time... Allow the scientific method its due process. Afterall, this is beta, no point in getting your dick in a twist until a month has gone by from launch and the game is broken.
How can you still say that? "its jsut beta". Sure if the beta starts and its imbalance its fine, but when you don´t see the game beeing pushed into the right direction, you should start thinkning. Because 1 month until release is nothing, when it comes to blizzards balancing.
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After yesterdays tournaments it seems that widow mine change didn't help mech enough.
With 2-3 patches to go this sadly means that mech TvP will remain a fringe strategy.
It wouldn't be so bad if Blizzard actually made a serious attempt at making it work but if the best they could do in anti-protoss department is +shield damage on a mine then the entire prospect was doomed from the start.
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On February 09 2013 17:13 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:On February 09 2013 14:27 TheSwagger wrote:
You can't try to fix every issue at the same time... Allow the scientific method its due process. Afterall, this is beta, no point in getting your dick in a twist until a month has gone by from launch and the game is broken. Sure you can try to fix everything in one go ... but you have to a) think long and hard about what is wrong with the game atm and - most importantly - b) have zero holy cows when you do it. You MUST BE prepared to change everything ... no matter how much you like it or want it in the game. Blizzard has too many holy cows to actually do that and the "scientific method" they use is to "change stuff until the matchups are at 50% winrate (roughly)". That makes sense from a limited perspective, but does it also guarantee a satisfying and fun gameplay in the process? Does it guarantee that things like Medivacs healing Battle Hellions or Widow Mine bonus damage to shields (and no other Terran attack) make sense? A good and healthy game community STARTS WITH A FUN GAME and only after that has been achieved should you think about the competitive side of things. Sadly Blizzard started with the second step and defined fun as "winning" and "bigger / more explosions". --- Some people will know Dungeons & Dragons and the producers of this game have split their own community into two factions by releasing a controversial 4th edition a few years ago. They broke with every tradition by making all classes follow the same formula compared to keeping the "Wizards are more powerful but run out of spells quickly while Fighters can swing their sword all day long" principle. Why did they do that? Because people have started whining about "balance" after they started "PvP class comparisons" ... which is kinda pointless in an "us Players against them monsters" game. People were also complaining about "being forced to play a healer" and in the new edition you couldnt really play a pure healer anymore, which means that choice was lost for those who actually LIKE to play the healer. I feel a similar mindset has been present in the Blizzard development team and this has created a less open gameplay for multiplayer in SC2. You cant play the Terran Siege game anymore and all the promises of Blizzard to make mech viable in TvP have resulted in buffs to some support units which again split the community. Bonus damage to shields and mech units becoming healable are really really terrible decisions which are necessary to keep their house of cards of bad design decisions standing. They really should throw all their holy cows overboard, take a deep breath and try to look at the gameplay objectively ... and then make the necessary changes. That feel. Miss old school D&D. But it had to be done. Video games made people realize fighting was more dynamic than previously thought. A new way needed to be made. Likewise WoL, has become stale because there was a FIXED method of dealing with X BO. The excitement is dying from WoL because of the limitation of variables. Every race SHOULD HAVE a unit or tactic which can do a disproportionate amount to it costs, think reaver drops, lurker ambush and spider mine baiting. I for one, welcome the dynamism that HotS brings.
The whole point of that D&D comparison is that you cant turn a pen-and-paper game into a computer game. They are different and they didnt realize it. One of the biggest complaints I had was that all the "utility spells" and "flexible spells" were taken out of the game without any replacement. You cant do "illusion spells" to trick an opponent in 4e "D&D" and thats the problem ... they lost a ton of flavor.
On February 09 2013 17:13 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:Some people will know Dungeons & Dragons and the producers of this game have split their own community into two factions by releasing a controversial 4th edition a few years ago. They broke with every tradition by making all classes follow the same formula compared to keeping the "Wizards are more powerful but run out of spells quickly while Fighters can swing their sword all day long" principle. Why did they do that? Because people have started whining about "balance" after they started "PvP class comparisons" ... which is kinda pointless in an "us Players against them monsters" game. People were also complaining about "being forced to play a healer" and in the new edition you couldnt really play a pure healer anymore, which means that choice was lost for those who actually LIKE to play the healer. First, no. Every edition of D&D breaks the base. That's what it does. Every single edition, from AD&D 1st to D&D Next, has split the community. There are still people who think 1e is the best D&D ever and the rest is dumbed down drivel. Every edition is controversial. Second yes, they broke traditions. But not the ones you claim. The tradition they broke was "Fighters are just pointless meatshields past level 10, while Wizards get to do all of the useful work." They allowed melee classes to actually have the same tactical and strategic depth as spellcasters. Yes, some people want to play a boring, uncomplicated class. But some of us don't. And some of us who don't also don't want to be forced into playing Wizards just to get combat that's tactically interesting past 10th level. And some of us want our characters to meaningfully contribute past 15th level without being spellcasters. In 4e I can do that. In 3e/Pathfinder, I can't. So while you can't play your pure healer, I get to play the class I always wanted. Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:I feel a similar mindset has been present in the Blizzard development team and this has created a less open gameplay for multiplayer in SC2. You cant play the Terran Siege game anymore and all the promises of Blizzard to make mech viable in TvP have resulted in buffs to some support units which again split the community. Bonus damage to shields and mech units becoming healable are really really terrible decisions which are necessary to keep their house of cards of bad design decisions standing. They really should throw all their holy cows overboard, take a deep breath and try to look at the gameplay objectively ... and then make the necessary changes. It is the "holy cows" (the term is "sacred cow." "Holy cow" is an exclamation) of SC1 that got them into this mess. I suspect if they had their way, Siege Tanks wouldn't even be in SC2. They're only here because they're a popular SC1 unit. We would have had the alpha version of the Thor, which was a big robot thing with a ton of Hp and an AoE barrage special ability. The difference between 4e and SC2 is this: 4e was different, but it was well designed for it's specific purpose. You may or may not like that purpose, but it does the job it's intending to very well. SC2 is basically SC1 with some different, very foreign feeling stuff bolted on to it. Basically, there are two games fighting in SC2: SC1 and some other game with entirely different units and such. SC2 tries to do it half-way and fails because the middle-of-the-road approach doesn't work. There are other areas that SC2 fails in, but that's not important for this point.
Sure, 4e was designed to be "computer compatible", but they lost a ton of flavor and flexibility which a computer game simply cant do. (see above) So designing a pen-and-paper game to be computer compatible was a bad idea. They had their grand plan of the "online dungeon system" where people could do the tabletop part of the game, but did that ever work? It reduces the game to the dumbest part of it and makes roleplaying totally impossible. That is what the core of an awesome D&D campaign is and not the fighting. The point of a D&D group is to survive the fights together and if your fighters feel like unimportant pawns it is the mistake of the DM to not threaten the mages enough and put them in their place. Mine did and I never had "awesome power" in those fights as a mage ... the Fighters did all the killing and that was good.
Why would the technology for Siege Tank production be lost in just a few years? Starcraft 2 is based on a STORY and this happens only a few years after the end of BW. Losing that kind of technology would have made as much sense as not having Science Vessels and Wraiths and Vultures with Spider Mines anymore does.
They decided to start with a clean sheet of paper when designing SC2 instead of starting with BW as a baseline and advance in small steps from there on. Thats the problem ... they designed a totally new game instead of improving on a popular and working one. They chose and chose badly, because no one can claim that "BW2.0 with some new units" would have been worse that SC2, but since that would have been a more solid starting point it would have been easier than starting from scratch.
If SC2 had been "BW2.0 with 3 new units for each side" would you have found that boring? I wouldnt.
The new bonus damage types are just a consequence of a flawed core system which relies far too much on masses of units being easily produced and controlled ... which they are afraid to change (= remove).
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On February 09 2013 11:25 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 08:56 Ulargg wrote:
I understand that some people are a little lost about the overlord speed, but I actually think that overlord speed was moved to hatch tech for zergs to be able to deal with widow mines more effectively.
Muta ling bane is not cost effective vs mines; but once you have overlords floating around it becomes a different story.
I hope the spore changes in combination with the infestor nerf is sufficient to prevent zvz from being a muta vs muta war.
Unlike what some people are saying; I believe it makes a huge difference; it's usually the first few mutas that make the difference vs the non-muta player.
Only thing that is missing is a hydra buff vs air (not vs ground). Once that is done, I think the skytoss issue vs zerg will be fixed.
Why throw 100/100 early into overlord speed against widow mines when you can build a spore crawler for 125 minerals? I just can't see a reasonable justification for it being hatch tech. The first 200 gas Zerg uses is crucial in every matchup. Depending how it is used it can win or cost Z the game.
A spore doesn't prevent your units from getting hit; especially early game this is an issue. Throwing away an overlord or two to soak up the damage of some mines can be quite cost effective.
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[B]
Terran
Widow Mine
-The primary target damage for Sentinel Missiles has been increased from 125 to 125 +35 vs. Shields.
12.
please i have enough problems vs widow mines already
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On February 08 2013 21:04 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 18:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I mean... why not make this + shields damage an upgrade for siege tanks at say armory? To give it to a unit that has splash damage and hits both air and ground + is cheaper and can be produced 2 at a time, that's too much... Isnt it obvious why they dont do this? They LOATHE the Siege Tank (why else did they buff everything else around it?) and want to get rid of it. The first - somewhat obvious - attempt was the Warhound, which featured the same kind of bonus damage, but was booed so much by the community that they removed it ASAP. The second attempt to "sneakily replace it" is by buffing the Widow Mine ... a unit which is powerful but doesnt synergize well with other units of an *army*. Siege Tank and Carrier are two "non-tier 1" remnants of core units from BW and they really really REALLY want to get rid of them. Why else did neither of them get buffed significantly? The Hydralisk is rather necessary as a ground based AA unit, so they cant get rid of it, but I guess they dont like it much either.
Wow... can't believe your even claiming that. If they hated Siege Tank so much it makes no sense that they would removed tanks instead...
Second, widow mines function NOTHING like a siege tank.
Third, Widow mines have great synergy with other units - especially siege tanks!
I had to ask you this in the other topic, but you kindly ignored it, do you even play HotS beta? Because your claims show you aren't aware of the current balance changes, you don't know the metagame, you don't know the synergy, you don't know how the new abilities work, and you have some real crazy claims like they hate siege tanks when they recently been buffed and can now have enough out early enough to stop any ~7 minute aggression if you scout the enemy, on top of being able to do their own aggression within 30 seconds of that.
On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:
Sure you can try to fix everything in one go ... but you have to a) think long and hard about what is wrong with the game atm and - most importantly - b) have zero holy cows when you do it. You MUST BE prepared to change everything ... no matter how much you like it or want it in the game. Blizzard has too many holy cows to actually do that and the "scientific method" they use is to "change stuff until the matchups are at 50% winrate (roughly)". That makes sense from a limited perspective, but does it also guarantee a satisfying and fun gameplay in the process? Does it guarantee that things like Medivacs healing Battle Hellions or Widow Mine bonus damage to shields (and no other Terran attack) make sense?
From every indication according to what you are saying, your just pissed off because they didnt give the bonus shield damage to the unit you wanted (siege tank)....
Have you played it to see how it works in action, to judge the synergy for yourself, and to be able to judge for yourself if it's fun or not?
I feel a similar mindset has been present in the Blizzard development team and this has created a less open gameplay for multiplayer in SC2. You cant play the Terran Siege game anymore and all the promises of Blizzard to make mech viable in TvP have resulted in buffs to some support units which again split the community. Bonus damage to shields and mech units becoming healable are really really terrible decisions which are necessary to keep their house of cards of bad design decisions standing. They really should throw all their holy cows overboard, take a deep breath and try to look at the gameplay objectively ... and then make the necessary changes.
You have claimed Terrans can't play siege game anymore in both TvP and TvZ in the other topic now... Which is blatantly not true. Your (again) ignoring other buffs Terran got....
What are your motives, man? All you do on these forums anymore is complain about design and balance, you aren't up to date on how things work, Your complaints aren't even backed up by specific problems or data indicating what an issue is. And you haven't had a single constructive post where you helped another user, or looked for solutions to a specific problem you were having.
All signs indicate to the fact that you don't even play the beta but yet are for some reason arguing about balance and design issues and acting like Terran has been unfairly treated, all things that you know absolutely nothing about if you aren't even playing...
On February 09 2013 18:38 Rabiator wrote:
If SC2 had been "BW2.0 with 3 new units for each side" would you have found that boring? I wouldnt.
The new bonus damage types are just a consequence of a flawed core system which relies far too much on masses of units being easily produced and controlled ... which they are afraid to change (= remove).
From everything you just said, including your comments about other games, it seems you are the one guilty of being afraid to change.
Besides, masses of units being produced is a problem of the economy/maps, not the damage types. Damage types are a result of unit/racial balance, not economy. Those are two completely different issues...
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Sadly Widow mine buff only really effects higher Tier protoss units. Ok so a mine can one shot gateway units, but you usually have 2-3 grouped anyway so 2 mines will still only kill 3-4 stalkers due to splash. Buff isn't as big as a deal as protoss is making it :x And the buff only applies to the single target damage. Just means protoss now loses a stalker for free if only tripping one mine. Also I think they now one shot oracles? That's the only other "huge" deal about the buff.
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On February 08 2013 10:32 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:30 Kireak wrote:
When the game is released blizzard will get a hefty balance hangover. It started out decent, you gave them the benefit of the doubt that they would work it out, but they screwed it royaly. Blizzard will have a pretty hefty balance wakeup when the game is released and tournaments start going. Pretty much this. It's very pitiful that the beta has been out this long and blizzard has been unwilling to make the necessary changes to make mech tvp viable. They refuse to listen and they will not listen it looks like until post-release when they realize mech tvp is still shit.
Why do people still say this? They've already made a statement months ago that they don't really care that people want BW mech and that they don't agree with that direction. They'd rather help the game grow towards a more bio-mech style, because it provides more flexibility and interesting games from their point of view, while a pure siege tank mech would be "too slow".
Do I agree with them? Hell no. But they said it, so at no point are these patches a betrayal of our trust. They've already come out and said it directly...to expect them to just randomly go back and give us mech is unrealistic from our side.
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On February 09 2013 18:38 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 17:13 NicolBolas wrote:On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:Some people will know Dungeons & Dragons and the producers of this game have split their own community into two factions by releasing a controversial 4th edition a few years ago. They broke with every tradition by making all classes follow the same formula compared to keeping the "Wizards are more powerful but run out of spells quickly while Fighters can swing their sword all day long" principle. Why did they do that? Because people have started whining about "balance" after they started "PvP class comparisons" ... which is kinda pointless in an "us Players against them monsters" game. People were also complaining about "being forced to play a healer" and in the new edition you couldnt really play a pure healer anymore, which means that choice was lost for those who actually LIKE to play the healer. First, no. Every edition of D&D breaks the base. That's what it does. Every single edition, from AD&D 1st to D&D Next, has split the community. There are still people who think 1e is the best D&D ever and the rest is dumbed down drivel. Every edition is controversial. Second yes, they broke traditions. But not the ones you claim. The tradition they broke was "Fighters are just pointless meatshields past level 10, while Wizards get to do all of the useful work." They allowed melee classes to actually have the same tactical and strategic depth as spellcasters. Yes, some people want to play a boring, uncomplicated class. But some of us don't. And some of us who don't also don't want to be forced into playing Wizards just to get combat that's tactically interesting past 10th level. And some of us want our characters to meaningfully contribute past 15th level without being spellcasters. In 4e I can do that. In 3e/Pathfinder, I can't. So while you can't play your pure healer, I get to play the class I always wanted. On February 09 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:I feel a similar mindset has been present in the Blizzard development team and this has created a less open gameplay for multiplayer in SC2. You cant play the Terran Siege game anymore and all the promises of Blizzard to make mech viable in TvP have resulted in buffs to some support units which again split the community. Bonus damage to shields and mech units becoming healable are really really terrible decisions which are necessary to keep their house of cards of bad design decisions standing. They really should throw all their holy cows overboard, take a deep breath and try to look at the gameplay objectively ... and then make the necessary changes. It is the "holy cows" (the term is "sacred cow." "Holy cow" is an exclamation) of SC1 that got them into this mess. I suspect if they had their way, Siege Tanks wouldn't even be in SC2. They're only here because they're a popular SC1 unit. We would have had the alpha version of the Thor, which was a big robot thing with a ton of Hp and an AoE barrage special ability. The difference between 4e and SC2 is this: 4e was different, but it was well designed for it's specific purpose. You may or may not like that purpose, but it does the job it's intending to very well. SC2 is basically SC1 with some different, very foreign feeling stuff bolted on to it. Basically, there are two games fighting in SC2: SC1 and some other game with entirely different units and such. SC2 tries to do it half-way and fails because the middle-of-the-road approach doesn't work. There are other areas that SC2 fails in, but that's not important for this point. Sure, 4e was designed to be "computer compatible", but they lost a ton of flavor and flexibility which a computer game simply cant do. (see above) So designing a pen-and-paper game to be computer compatible was a bad idea. They had their grand plan of the "online dungeon system" where people could do the tabletop part of the game, but did that ever work? It reduces the game to the dumbest part of it and makes roleplaying totally impossible. That is what the core of an awesome D&D campaign is and not the fighting. The point of a D&D group is to survive the fights together and if your fighters feel like unimportant pawns it is the mistake of the DM to not threaten the mages enough and put them in their place. Mine did and I never had "awesome power" in those fights as a mage ... the Fighters did all the killing and that was good.
It's not that Fighters in pre-4e D&D weren't "important" (though high-level mages could eventually get by without them). It's that they're not intelligent. What they have to do simply isn't that interesting. Oh, a guy's heading for the mages; better hit him. What attack do I use? Oh, that's right, I only have like 3 to choose from. And so forth.
As far as actual gameplay is concerned, Fighters are boring. Tactically, they have limited options for what to do at any one time, and those options never change. You're doing the same things at level 1 as you are at level 20. Whereas playing a 1st level mage is nothing like playing a 20th level one. I want to have a melee class that has a real range of tactical options, resources to manage, and other such things. You know, the stuff wizards get, only for melee classes.
As for you not having "awesome power", well, that's your fault for not making a good mage build. The fact that you personally didn't exploit your spell list very well doesn't mean that others didn't or haven't.
On February 09 2013 18:38 Rabiator wrote:Why would the technology for Siege Tank production be lost in just a few years? Starcraft 2 is based on a STORY and this happens only a few years after the end of BW. Losing that kind of technology would have made as much sense as not having Science Vessels and Wraiths and Vultures with Spider Mines anymore does.
Who cares why if it makes for a better game? I don't play StarCraft for the lore. I don't have any particular love for any of these units; I'm interested in the gameplay. If taking out Siege Tanks allows the developers the design space to make new, interesting units, then those STs should be able to go.
They weren't. They were considered "iconic" SC1 units and therefore they had to stay. And if that meant we had to lose good unit ideas, then we lost them.
You can always contrive some excuse for something not being available. Nobody makes SVs or Wraiths because they're obsolete or too expensive to make compared to the more economical Ravens or whatever. If someone needs some Fanwank explanation for why a competitive game is as it is, then one can be invented that fits within the universe.
I mean, you accept that EMPs can somehow affect psionic energy, which makes absolutely no sense. You accept that a race thousands of years more advanced than humanity somehow can be defeated by modern humans (consider taking a modern army against an army even 200 years old, let alone Roman legions. They'd get face-stomped). And so forth.
If you don't accept that new units replaced old ones, it would only be because you don't want to, not because it doesn't make sense.
On February 09 2013 18:38 Rabiator wrote:They decided to start with a clean sheet of paper when designing SC2 instead of starting with BW as a baseline and advance in small steps from there on. Thats the problem ... they designed a totally new game instead of improving on a popular and working one. They chose and chose badly, because no one can claim that "BW2.0 with some new units" would have been worse that SC2, but since that would have been a more solid starting point it would have been easier than starting from scratch.
No, they didn't. They started from SC1; the first thing they did was implement all the SC1 units. Then they added units and removed old ones.
Your problem is that you're looking at the game as it is now, not the game as it was developed the way Blizzard built it.
On February 09 2013 18:38 Rabiator wrote:If SC2 had been "BW2.0 with 3 new units for each side" would you have found that boring? I wouldnt.
I would have found it to be lazy design. And probably terrible besides, since SC1 had already taken up most of the unit design space.
On February 09 2013 18:38 Rabiator wrote:The new bonus damage types are just a consequence of a flawed core system which relies far too much on masses of units being easily produced and controlled ... which they are afraid to change (= remove).
That's just being ignorant of how SC2 was developed. The damage bonus system came first; it was part of the game back in the 2007 reveal. The macro mechanics that create "masses of units being easily produced" came much later, in 2008-09.
Also, breaking the game by gimping the UI is not an acceptable means of "improving" the game. If the only way to make a genre of game work is to break the UI, then such a genre is fundamentally broken.
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On February 09 2013 20:43 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:32 avilo wrote:On February 08 2013 10:30 Kireak wrote:
When the game is released blizzard will get a hefty balance hangover. It started out decent, you gave them the benefit of the doubt that they would work it out, but they screwed it royaly. Blizzard will have a pretty hefty balance wakeup when the game is released and tournaments start going. Pretty much this. It's very pitiful that the beta has been out this long and blizzard has been unwilling to make the necessary changes to make mech tvp viable. They refuse to listen and they will not listen it looks like until post-release when they realize mech tvp is still shit. Why do people still say this? They've already made a statement months ago that they don't really care that people want BW mech and that they don't agree with that direction. They'd rather help the game grow towards a more bio-mech style, because it provides more flexibility and interesting games from their point of view, while a pure siege tank mech would be "too slow".
Because even in that they have failed.
As is factory units in the TvP match-up see about as much usage as in WoL.
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On February 09 2013 20:56 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 20:43 mrjpark wrote:On February 08 2013 10:32 avilo wrote:On February 08 2013 10:30 Kireak wrote:
When the game is released blizzard will get a hefty balance hangover. It started out decent, you gave them the benefit of the doubt that they would work it out, but they screwed it royaly. Blizzard will have a pretty hefty balance wakeup when the game is released and tournaments start going. Pretty much this. It's very pitiful that the beta has been out this long and blizzard has been unwilling to make the necessary changes to make mech tvp viable. They refuse to listen and they will not listen it looks like until post-release when they realize mech tvp is still shit. Why do people still say this? They've already made a statement months ago that they don't really care that people want BW mech and that they don't agree with that direction. They'd rather help the game grow towards a more bio-mech style, because it provides more flexibility and interesting games from their point of view, while a pure siege tank mech would be "too slow". Because even in that they have failed. As is factory units in the TvP match-up see about as much usage as in WoL.
hellbats and widow mines are here to disagree :D
but yeah tanks still suck TvP and i dont know why they give mine + damage to shields instead of giving that to tanks...
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On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix.
How about qxc's idea that the community was so pleased with but that ended up being rejected by Blizzard: Snipe now does 50 damage, but with -15 to massive units. Obviously zerg is the only race with massive biological units, so it would have been directly targeted at zerg.
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On February 09 2013 21:14 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 20:56 pmp10 wrote:On February 09 2013 20:43 mrjpark wrote:On February 08 2013 10:32 avilo wrote:On February 08 2013 10:30 Kireak wrote:
When the game is released blizzard will get a hefty balance hangover. It started out decent, you gave them the benefit of the doubt that they would work it out, but they screwed it royaly. Blizzard will have a pretty hefty balance wakeup when the game is released and tournaments start going. Pretty much this. It's very pitiful that the beta has been out this long and blizzard has been unwilling to make the necessary changes to make mech tvp viable. They refuse to listen and they will not listen it looks like until post-release when they realize mech tvp is still shit. Why do people still say this? They've already made a statement months ago that they don't really care that people want BW mech and that they don't agree with that direction. They'd rather help the game grow towards a more bio-mech style, because it provides more flexibility and interesting games from their point of view, while a pure siege tank mech would be "too slow". Because even in that they have failed. As is factory units in the TvP match-up see about as much usage as in WoL. hellbats and widow mines are here to disagree :D but yeah tanks still suck TvP and i dont know why they give mine + damage to shields instead of giving that to tanks...
Because when people say factory units--they mean Siege Tank as a core unit.
Hellions and thors are used often in WoL. In fact, all three factory units are used a lot in all three matchups. (Except thors in TvP)
So they aren't complaining about factory units not being used, they're complaining that factory units are being used, designed, and implemented differently from BW.
When blizz put the war hound in, all terrans went factory centric play all day everyday. Why? Because blizz knew that a unit like the war hound would get people to play factory centered units. People complained because they didn't like it that a non-siege tank unit was being massed.
So no, these whines won't be stopping anytime soon.
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Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ?
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On February 09 2013 21:14 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 20:56 pmp10 wrote:On February 09 2013 20:43 mrjpark wrote:On February 08 2013 10:32 avilo wrote:On February 08 2013 10:30 Kireak wrote:
When the game is released blizzard will get a hefty balance hangover. It started out decent, you gave them the benefit of the doubt that they would work it out, but they screwed it royaly. Blizzard will have a pretty hefty balance wakeup when the game is released and tournaments start going. Pretty much this. It's very pitiful that the beta has been out this long and blizzard has been unwilling to make the necessary changes to make mech tvp viable. They refuse to listen and they will not listen it looks like until post-release when they realize mech tvp is still shit. Why do people still say this? They've already made a statement months ago that they don't really care that people want BW mech and that they don't agree with that direction. They'd rather help the game grow towards a more bio-mech style, because it provides more flexibility and interesting games from their point of view, while a pure siege tank mech would be "too slow". Because even in that they have failed. As is factory units in the TvP match-up see about as much usage as in WoL. hellbats and widow mines are here to disagree :D but yeah tanks still suck TvP and i dont know why they give mine + damage to shields instead of giving that to tanks...
Hellion drops didn't stop scouting factories from happening and neither will hellbats.
The most frustrating thing with HotS is that nobody forced Blizzard to work on mech.
They picked themselves that one job for terran but clearly didn't understand the issues that needed solving.
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On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ?
Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen.
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Pneumatized upgrade at hatch is pretty huge, imo. Allows really easy scouting early game at the cost of delaying lair/speed by 50 gas. Not bad.
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Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution.
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On February 10 2013 00:06 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 21:14 Decendos wrote:On February 09 2013 20:56 pmp10 wrote:On February 09 2013 20:43 mrjpark wrote:On February 08 2013 10:32 avilo wrote:On February 08 2013 10:30 Kireak wrote:
When the game is released blizzard will get a hefty balance hangover. It started out decent, you gave them the benefit of the doubt that they would work it out, but they screwed it royaly. Blizzard will have a pretty hefty balance wakeup when the game is released and tournaments start going. Pretty much this. It's very pitiful that the beta has been out this long and blizzard has been unwilling to make the necessary changes to make mech tvp viable. They refuse to listen and they will not listen it looks like until post-release when they realize mech tvp is still shit. Why do people still say this? They've already made a statement months ago that they don't really care that people want BW mech and that they don't agree with that direction. They'd rather help the game grow towards a more bio-mech style, because it provides more flexibility and interesting games from their point of view, while a pure siege tank mech would be "too slow". Because even in that they have failed. As is factory units in the TvP match-up see about as much usage as in WoL. hellbats and widow mines are here to disagree :D but yeah tanks still suck TvP and i dont know why they give mine + damage to shields instead of giving that to tanks... Hellion drops didn't stop scouting factories from happening and neither will hellbats. The most frustrating thing with HotS is that nobody forced Blizzard to work on mech. They picked themselves that one job for terran but clearly didn't understand the issues that needed solving.
They did make factory play (their goal) strong and powerful. Then people whined about war hound being too good and so they removed it. They know how to make factory play work--it's BW style mech play that they're avoiding.
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On February 10 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ? Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen.
Maybe the thing he's said they'll try to change since ... forever ... the corruptor?
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Since it's the most active thread, I'll just ask my question here:
Do widow mines still target cloaked units without needing detection?
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On February 10 2013 00:32 ZenithM wrote:
Since it's the most active thread, I'll just ask my question here:
Do widow mines still target cloaked units without needing detection?
No that changed a while ago.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 10 2013 00:32 ZenithM wrote:
Since it's the most active thread, I'll just ask my question here:
Do widow mines still target cloaked units without needing detection?
They haven't been able to since a few patches ago.
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Ok thanks, that's what I vaguely remembered
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On February 10 2013 00:24 Cloak wrote:
Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution.
I think widow mines should be renamed because people such as yourself keeps comparing them to spider mines.
For good or for bad, planetaries have taken over the role of Spidermines. Widow mines are diet siege tanks (in essence)
Now I have many qualms against widow mines.
-I don't like Terran having such a front loaded cloaked combat unit--sounds protoss ish to me.
-I don't like the flavor confusion of +35 to shields
-I don't like that its called a mine
-I don't like that it overlaps with the tank so much especially believing that simply cutting tank supply down to 2 and making tank splash 100% around the affected area will be much more interesting than what widow mine is currently doing.
-I don't like that they're stepping on toss toes flavor wise (Protoss have robots while Terran need drivers) the widow mine is an unmanned robot. That's just silly.
The list can go on, and along with the complaints I have many superior suggestions. But... Even still. I wouldn't compare widow mine to the Spidermines just because their name both has mine in it. It's much more similar to the shredder than the Spidermines.
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I'm Terran, and honestly, I wouldn't mined if the widow mine (or some sort of low cost low supply weak AoE space control thing) had gone to Protoss. I think they even needed it in a way.
I like that the new units/revamped units seem kinda overpowered. Like the hellbat or the voidray. We need more stuff to be powerful in SC2, not weaker than in WoL. If you have to balance something, create something equally ridiculous, don't destroy the unit like in WoL.
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On February 10 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ? Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen.
Mutas changed ?
And even then, that's not a lot of changes. But I'm not like most of the people on team liquid, I don't care about balance at all, I just want new stuff. For me, watching streams, it still seems too much like wol.
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On February 10 2013 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:24 Cloak wrote:
Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution. I think widow mines should be renamed because people such as yourself keeps comparing them to spider mines. For good or for bad, planetaries have taken over the role of Spidermines. Widow mines are diet siege tanks (in essence) Now I have many qualms against widow mines. -I don't like Terran having such a front loaded cloaked combat unit--sounds protoss ish to me. -I don't like the flavor confusion of +35 to shields -I don't like that its called a mine -I don't like that it overlaps with the tank so much especially believing that simply cutting tank supply down to 2 and making tank splash 100% around the affected area will be much more interesting than what widow mine is currently doing. -I don't like that they're stepping on toss toes flavor wise (Protoss have robots while Terran need drivers) the widow mine is an unmanned robot. That's just silly. The list can go on, and along with the complaints I have many superior suggestions. But... Even still. I wouldn't compare widow mine to the Spidermines just because their name both has mine in it. It's much more similar to the shredder than the Spidermines.
You can call them fluorescent giraffes for all I care. They resemble Spider Mines very strongly. Burrowed units that activate within proximity with an explosion. So long as those are the defining features, my mammalian brain is going to associate them.
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On February 10 2013 00:24 Uhh Negative wrote:
Pneumatized upgrade at hatch is pretty huge, imo. Allows really easy scouting early game at the cost of delaying lair/speed by 50 gas. Not bad.
How do you figure it's pretty huge, have you tried to come up with a good build order for it?
Early burrow was plagued by being hard to fit in to many builds before you would be able to get it otherwise because your sacrificing either your early queens (and 4 queens became ideal for a reason) or an early lair.
For any build that's not sacrificing defenses or economy, you only get it approximately 80 seconds earlier than before. No big deal. (Even David Kim said so himself when he proposed the change).
Also, in most cases your better off sacrificing a Queen for an early lair rather than the speed, and just getting an overseer and dropping a changeling. That way your not vulnerable to widows/etc and also getting tech.
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On February 10 2013 00:55 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 10 2013 00:24 Cloak wrote:
Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution. I think widow mines should be renamed because people such as yourself keeps comparing them to spider mines. For good or for bad, planetaries have taken over the role of Spidermines. Widow mines are diet siege tanks (in essence) Now I have many qualms against widow mines. -I don't like Terran having such a front loaded cloaked combat unit--sounds protoss ish to me. -I don't like the flavor confusion of +35 to shields -I don't like that its called a mine -I don't like that it overlaps with the tank so much especially believing that simply cutting tank supply down to 2 and making tank splash 100% around the affected area will be much more interesting than what widow mine is currently doing. -I don't like that they're stepping on toss toes flavor wise (Protoss have robots while Terran need drivers) the widow mine is an unmanned robot. That's just silly. The list can go on, and along with the complaints I have many superior suggestions. But... Even still. I wouldn't compare widow mine to the Spidermines just because their name both has mine in it. It's much more similar to the shredder than the Spidermines. You can call them fluorescent giraffes for all I care. They resemble Spider Mines very strongly. Burrowed units that activate within proximity with an explosion. So long as those are the defining features, my mammalian brain is going to associate them.
?? They're an underground missile launcher. Their closer to a StA Missile rack turned sideways to hit tanks. They don't work at all the same.
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On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ?
It looks like they in the fine-tuning phase right now. I think this is good because the real issues will become visible only after some esports tournament. We don't know if Blizzard then continues with small patches or if we see some bigger changes.
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On February 10 2013 01:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:55 Cloak wrote:On February 10 2013 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 10 2013 00:24 Cloak wrote:
Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution. I think widow mines should be renamed because people such as yourself keeps comparing them to spider mines. For good or for bad, planetaries have taken over the role of Spidermines. Widow mines are diet siege tanks (in essence) Now I have many qualms against widow mines. -I don't like Terran having such a front loaded cloaked combat unit--sounds protoss ish to me. -I don't like the flavor confusion of +35 to shields -I don't like that its called a mine -I don't like that it overlaps with the tank so much especially believing that simply cutting tank supply down to 2 and making tank splash 100% around the affected area will be much more interesting than what widow mine is currently doing. -I don't like that they're stepping on toss toes flavor wise (Protoss have robots while Terran need drivers) the widow mine is an unmanned robot. That's just silly. The list can go on, and along with the complaints I have many superior suggestions. But... Even still. I wouldn't compare widow mine to the Spidermines just because their name both has mine in it. It's much more similar to the shredder than the Spidermines. You can call them fluorescent giraffes for all I care. They resemble Spider Mines very strongly. Burrowed units that activate within proximity with an explosion. So long as those are the defining features, my mammalian brain is going to associate them. ?? They're an underground missile launcher. Their closer to a StA Missile rack turned sideways to hit tanks. They don't work at all the same.
My brother is in the army and is in engineering and does demolitions. If he could have a reusable, target-able landmine that could also deploy itself, he would take it in a second. If they could recall the mine back to home, like calling a dog, he would take that too. Since starcraft is in the future, I will accept they have made mines better than ever. Fucking smart, reusable and able to take care of themselves. Like Rumbas, but they make a mess, rather than clean it up.
The part that makes it a mine if that part where it buries itself under the ground and waits for its prey. How it messes up its prey is up to the mine.
Also, Protoss would get the "fluorescent giraffes" unit, getting one step closer to the disco party.
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On February 10 2013 01:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:55 Cloak wrote:On February 10 2013 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 10 2013 00:24 Cloak wrote:
Flat modifiers are okay so long as they don't become convoluted. I think it'll be inevitable for micro-adjustments, because there's only so many elegant solutions you can come up with. We also take for granted that the nature of attacks, while they have a pleasing visual relationship, are still arbitrary. Some things you can't visually appreciate, so subtle hints are required. With that out of the way, I still think these are all just bandaid fixes instead of just accepting the Spider Mine is better design (set count of mines on a minelayer), just make them microable for SC2, that'll be its evolution. I think widow mines should be renamed because people such as yourself keeps comparing them to spider mines. For good or for bad, planetaries have taken over the role of Spidermines. Widow mines are diet siege tanks (in essence) Now I have many qualms against widow mines. -I don't like Terran having such a front loaded cloaked combat unit--sounds protoss ish to me. -I don't like the flavor confusion of +35 to shields -I don't like that its called a mine -I don't like that it overlaps with the tank so much especially believing that simply cutting tank supply down to 2 and making tank splash 100% around the affected area will be much more interesting than what widow mine is currently doing. -I don't like that they're stepping on toss toes flavor wise (Protoss have robots while Terran need drivers) the widow mine is an unmanned robot. That's just silly. The list can go on, and along with the complaints I have many superior suggestions. But... Even still. I wouldn't compare widow mine to the Spidermines just because their name both has mine in it. It's much more similar to the shredder than the Spidermines. You can call them fluorescent giraffes for all I care. They resemble Spider Mines very strongly. Burrowed units that activate within proximity with an explosion. So long as those are the defining features, my mammalian brain is going to associate them. ?? They're an underground missile launcher. Their closer to a StA Missile rack turned sideways to hit tanks. They don't work at all the same.
Too much semantic argument for my liking, but I wouldn't really call the Widow Mine being an evolution of the Spider Mine as contentious, even outside of name, it's just a mine that refreshes itself, which in real life is closest to a rocket launcher, but in video game logic, mines can refresh themselves. I would say the Shredder is categorically different just by the nature of its attack being pure aoe, so it "shreds," not "blasts." Be that as it may, your points about too much frontload and Tank overlap are the most poignant. Everything Mech overlaps, and Blizzard is seeking balance choices over design choices, especially now that HotS is imminent.
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On February 10 2013 00:52 Basique wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ? Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen. Mutas changed ? And even then, that's not a lot of changes. But I'm not like most of the people on team liquid, I don't care about balance at all, I just want new stuff. For me, watching streams, it still seems too much like wol.
Mutas had their speed massively buffed and got passive regen. Their micro potential is much higher now than it is in WoL because regen means the benefits of saving individuals mutas are so much higher.
Ravens went from only really being for detection and army support with pdd, to being an extremely effective aoe damage caster/space controller who helps enormously against deathballs.
Void Rays had their entire core attack mechanic completely revamped, making them a much more capable core unit. In exchange, they had their supply cost raised to make them somewhat less effective when massed.
Medivacs got their speed boost which makes Terran harass much harder to stop, since the anti-air required to take out a Medivac before it can drop units and get away are now much higher.
Thors lost their useless ability and liability energy bars, and gained some additional utility against armored flying units.
Siege Tanks now no longer require an upgrade which means they come out earlier and with less investment required from Terran.
Hydra speed upgrade has boosted their overall utility, particularly in the midgame (and mid lategame, once you mix in Vipers).
Phoenixes have much higher range and are even better air superiority units now.
Terran air and vehicle armor upgrades were merged to make tech switching easier.
Overlord speed and burrow are now hatch tech, opening up additional early game scouting, defense and all-in options for Zerg.
Carriers had their micro capabilities improved to more closely resemble BW, Motherships had their recall reworked and traded vortex for timewarp.
Hellions weren't changed directly, but the introduction of the Hellbat transformation has radically expanded Hellion utility, both for harass, defense, and as part of a larger composition.
Ultralisks got a huge damage buff against light ground.
Infestors were seriously nerfed, with ITs losing their upgrade potential, their eggs losing health, and Fungal turned into a projectile.
DTs were made much cheaper to get.
Reapers lost most of their combat utility and were turned into pure scouts, albeit with better health and some regen to make them better at moving around an enemy base to get info without dying.
...How is that not a lot of changes? Short of a complete ground up redesign, the game has changed a great deal from WoL, even beyond the new units. Like half the units from WoL have been altered in some way, and in many cases those alterations have been quite substantial. Harass options for all 3 races have been tremendously improved, but so have scouting options and anti-air. Factory units are more flexible, and the new Raven has substantially improved Terran lategame. Zerg is less reliant on Infestor/Broodlord with the new Ultras and addition of Vipers, and in exchange Infestors were nerfed and numerous new counters to BLs were added. Numerous new anti-colossi units and options were added, at the same time as stargate was hugely buffed, pushing Protoss away from relying exclusively on robo+gateway and more towards air-heavy comps.
I dunno what game people are watching that they don't think it's changed from WoL. I see the new units being used all the time, and even the old ones are being used in new ways and in new builds.
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On February 10 2013 01:57 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 00:52 Basique wrote:On February 10 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ? Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen. Mutas changed ? And even then, that's not a lot of changes. But I'm not like most of the people on team liquid, I don't care about balance at all, I just want new stuff. For me, watching streams, it still seems too much like wol. Mutas had their speed massively buffed and got passive regen.
I wouldn't exactly use the word 'massively' where the speed increase is only 6.5%, it's really not that much. Just saying
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On February 10 2013 02:28 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 01:57 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 10 2013 00:52 Basique wrote:On February 10 2013 00:22 awesomoecalypse wrote:On February 09 2013 23:56 Basique wrote:
Dustin said in an interview that after looking at the new units they would revamped and change the old units. Do you think they will still do that, with less than one month ? Or what we have seen until now was the units being changed ? Ravens, Mutas, Void Rays, Medivacs and to a lesser extent Phoenixes and Hydras have all been changed from their WoL incarnation. If you meant something like "Colossus was changed from a 6 supply cliffwalking war of the worlds thing into a 4 supply nearly immobile mechanical slug that shoots scarabs that may or may not work" then no, that's never going to happen. Mutas changed ? And even then, that's not a lot of changes. But I'm not like most of the people on team liquid, I don't care about balance at all, I just want new stuff. For me, watching streams, it still seems too much like wol. Mutas had their speed massively buffed and got passive regen. I wouldn't exactly use the word 'massively' where the speed increase is only 6.5%, it's really not that much. Just saying
6.5% of really fast = super fast. Mutas were never slow.
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I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions?
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On February 10 2013 05:32 Baum wrote:
I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions?
Which basically means if you don't scout it, you are majorly screwed. And Z tech switches are damn hard to scout
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On February 10 2013 05:32 Baum wrote:
I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions?
One thing that I personally believe is underutilized is checkering buildings where you want to defend against Zerg attacks when the Zerg has ultras out. Ultras are just too strong when they can attack now, so you need to take advantage of chokes and the ultralisk pathing issues to win battles against them.
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On February 10 2013 05:53 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 05:32 Baum wrote:
I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions? One thing that I personally believe is underutilized is checkering buildings where you want to defend against Zerg attacks when the Zerg has ultras out. Ultras are just too strong when they can attack now, so you need to take advantage of chokes and the ultralisk pathing issues to win battles against them.
Well if you are turteling behind buildings you are not attacking and will die to broodlords later. If you say that a bio tank army can't fight ultras anymore then you might as well say that bio tank isn't viable anymore.
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Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed
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... Blizzard is really... not ... I dont even..
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Lunesta wrote:
I imagine most are curious as to why the hellbat wasn't even mentioned. Not a great patch imo. Hopefully other issues will be addressed before the game comes out.
I would have to agree with this. Hellbats are far to strong especially in the company of tanks and thors. It's almost impossible to break this as a zerg. Carrier's need to become nerfed imo I feel they make skytoss way to strong. Not feeling this patch. The carpace upgrade isn't going to help me much early on...
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On February 10 2013 08:06 DoNuTs84 wrote:
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed
You should really think about those first. Did you just finish the campain or something? First off, TechReactors are a bad idea. Double Marauders, Thors, or Battle Cruisers? Or other units that require a Tech Lab? Thats a big mistake.
And Auto-Refineries? lol So that Terran can just make a thousand Orbital Commands and get minerals with mules only and have a 200 supply army? Yeah right.
Protoss already have a good splash unit, the Archon. And tempest own hive tech zerg units anyways.
Infestor completely removed? So that they can't win any games at all? All pretty drastic changes for someone wanting Tech Reactors. Let me guess. You're Terran.
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On February 10 2013 09:48 KCCO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 08:06 DoNuTs84 wrote:
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed You should really think about those first. Did you just finish the campain or something? First off, TechReactors are a bad idea. Double Marauders, Thors, or Battle Cruisers? Or other units that require a Tech Lab? Thats a big mistake. And Auto-Refineries? lol So that Terran can just make a thousand Orbital Commands and get minerals with mules only and have a 200 supply army? Yeah right. Protoss already have a good splash unit, the Archon. And tempest own hive tech zerg units anyways. Infestor completely removed? So that they can't win any games at all? All pretty drastic changes for someone wanting Tech Reactors. Let me guess. You're Terran.
Let me guess, you've never come across sarcasm before?
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On February 10 2013 10:18 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 09:48 KCCO wrote:On February 10 2013 08:06 DoNuTs84 wrote:
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed You should really think about those first. Did you just finish the campain or something? First off, TechReactors are a bad idea. Double Marauders, Thors, or Battle Cruisers? Or other units that require a Tech Lab? Thats a big mistake. And Auto-Refineries? lol So that Terran can just make a thousand Orbital Commands and get minerals with mules only and have a 200 supply army? Yeah right. Protoss already have a good splash unit, the Archon. And tempest own hive tech zerg units anyways. Infestor completely removed? So that they can't win any games at all? All pretty drastic changes for someone wanting Tech Reactors. Let me guess. You're Terran. Let me guess, you've never come across sarcasm before?
he is new to it. be nice to him.
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On February 10 2013 09:29 GGY0UMAKE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Lunesta wrote:
I imagine most are curious as to why the hellbat wasn't even mentioned. Not a great patch imo. Hopefully other issues will be addressed before the game comes out. I would have to agree with this. Hellbats are far to strong especially in the company of tanks and thors. It's almost impossible to break this as a zerg. Carrier's need to become nerfed imo I feel they make skytoss way to strong. Not feeling this patch. The carpace upgrade isn't going to help me much early on...
raoch hydra viper actually destroys mech pretty bad if you dark swarm correctly and spread your units.
zerg can build like 5 evos and get infinite energy on vipers
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On February 10 2013 10:18 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 09:48 KCCO wrote:On February 10 2013 08:06 DoNuTs84 wrote:
Next patch:
Terran
TechReactors can now be added to any barracks, factory or starport for the cost of 75 minerals and 75 gas.
Refineries can now be upgraded to auto-refinery from Engineering Bay
Protoss
Tempest now does splash damage
Zerg
Infestor removed You should really think about those first. Did you just finish the campain or something? First off, TechReactors are a bad idea. Double Marauders, Thors, or Battle Cruisers? Or other units that require a Tech Lab? Thats a big mistake. And Auto-Refineries? lol So that Terran can just make a thousand Orbital Commands and get minerals with mules only and have a 200 supply army? Yeah right. Protoss already have a good splash unit, the Archon. And tempest own hive tech zerg units anyways. Infestor completely removed? So that they can't win any games at all? All pretty drastic changes for someone wanting Tech Reactors. Let me guess. You're Terran. Let me guess, you've never come across sarcasm before?
being sarcastic on the internet is just plain stupid
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Russian Federation11 Posts
It was this way since the last patch.
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On February 10 2013 06:47 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 05:53 JDub wrote:On February 10 2013 05:32 Baum wrote:
I can't seem to beat Ultras anymore. From what I have found you basically can stop marine production when ultras are out but that means you are even more vulnerable to an air switch and the infrastructure you need is insane. In WOL you wanted to have at least 4 to 6 techlab barracks while now you need at least 6 to 8 which means that if you get reactor barracks they are quite useless in the lategame if your opponent goes ultralisk. Any suggestions? One thing that I personally believe is underutilized is checkering buildings where you want to defend against Zerg attacks when the Zerg has ultras out. Ultras are just too strong when they can attack now, so you need to take advantage of chokes and the ultralisk pathing issues to win battles against them. Well if you are turteling behind buildings you are not attacking and will die to broodlords later. If you say that a bio tank army can't fight ultras anymore then you might as well say that bio tank isn't viable anymore.
You could use floating barracks and landing them to partially block off Ultras when you are out on the battlefield, but creep spread will usually prevent that on the Zerg half of the map at least. Creep really takes AGES to retreat after you killed the tumor/building that created it and there is no way to speed it up. Kinda "unfair" if you cant really use bunkers while attacking without having to spend a minute or two waiting for the creep to be gone.
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Theres nothing unfair about that. Bunkers are intended as a defensive structure. The game should not be rebalanced just so you can use bunkers more offensively. Creep needs to receed slowly to allow time for queens to replant tumors after they have been wiped out. Terran make so many command centres that they can mule and scan all day. If Terran hes the ability to scan and wipe out screen after screen of creep, I dont think its too unfair for them to have to consider doing a second pass of the area shortly after to take out any queens or new tumors moving in.
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I've been going reaper opening into marine ghost tank widow mine medivac raven in TvP and I've been having a LOT of fun doing it. Not come across late game skytoss yet but the addition of widow mines and the new hunter seeker missile along with a PDD or two is really deadly. Not to mention that if you side upgrade your tanks, you get really survivable medivacs and ravens.
Really enjoying it at my level of play. A lot more fun than pure mech.
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Hi. I know this should shouldn't be here but in the hots strategy section, but it is only a short question:
I play Random HotS and have the following Problem: As (Bio+Tanks) Terran, when my Opponent (Z) goes mass roach with swarm hosts, i seem to not be eable to break him even with a huge eco advantage (pushed my opponent back to 2 bases whereas I had 4) he just sieged and overrun my base. Of course i then went for a baserace but I could never kill off his army
What is supposed to be the counter to it? Or is ther not a simple answer but a complex strategy involved?
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On February 10 2013 22:21 Rollora wrote:Hi. I know this should shouldn't be here but in the hots strategy section, but it is only a short question: I play Random HotS and have the following Problem: As (Bio+Tanks) Terran, when my Opponent (Z) goes mass roach with swarm hosts, i seem to not be eable to break him even with a huge eco advantage (pushed my opponent back to 2 bases whereas I had 4) he just sieged and overrun my base. Of course i then went for a baserace but I could never kill off his army What is supposed to be the counter to it? Or is ther not a simple answer but a complex strategy involved?
You need to post a replay, otherwise people have no idea what went wrong.
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On February 10 2013 22:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 22:21 Rollora wrote:Hi. I know this should shouldn't be here but in the hots strategy section, but it is only a short question: I play Random HotS and have the following Problem: As (Bio+Tanks) Terran, when my Opponent (Z) goes mass roach with swarm hosts, i seem to not be eable to break him even with a huge eco advantage (pushed my opponent back to 2 bases whereas I had 4) he just sieged and overrun my base. Of course i then went for a baserace but I could never kill off his army What is supposed to be the counter to it? Or is ther not a simple answer but a complex strategy involved? You need to post a replay, otherwise people have no idea what went wrong.
well you are right sir, sorry.
Unfortunately I am ashamed to upload the replay I was refering too, cause 1. I made many mistakes since I was unranked I didn't care (my macro wasn't that good, alwhough better then his) and in the End there is a lot of whining and flaming :D
So if I upload the vid, I don't need to know my macro, micro was bad (maybe you could tell me how i scout if its infestors or swarm hosts but then there is maybe no possibility before they get scouted in their natural habit.
The situation was:
Basically it is about a choke point (hope I spelled that correctly)/ramp on Cloud Kingdom between natural and 3rd where he pushed up and I couldn't do anything against it
Question is more like: is Marine/Marauder Tank good against this or should i go for lets say banshees If i see it coming
Edit: ok I whined about it being unfair (although i know it isn't i just didn't figure out the counter yet, i played about 10 games in HOTS as Terran so I don't know everything yet), I guess whoever is interested in helping me can bear the bit of whining :D
where can i upload it?
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Its surprising that their a few major changes this close to the release date, i guess this means that Blizzard feel that HOTS is close to being balanced.
The + 35 damage to shields given to widow mines will help mech openers a lot against early P all ins however I expected the tank to get a similar buff to this as a lategame upgrage (EMP Shells) as i feel with the addition of vipers/tempests tanks have even more hard counters than they did in WOL.
I hope they make more significant changes before release (hydra buff in hp and remove the healing from hellbats) as well as making the widow mine more of a space control unit away from the main army rather than a support unit with a bio/mech ball.
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On February 10 2013 20:38 DeCoup wrote:
Theres nothing unfair about that. Bunkers are intended as a defensive structure. The game should not be rebalanced just so you can use bunkers more offensively. Creep needs to receed slowly to allow time for queens to replant tumors after they have been wiped out. Terran make so many command centres that they can mule and scan all day. If Terran hes the ability to scan and wipe out screen after screen of creep, I dont think its too unfair for them to have to consider doing a second pass of the area shortly after to take out any queens or new tumors moving in.
Rofl ... bunkers are more than a defensive structure. Their ability to be deconstructed and rebuilt elsewhere clearly suggests a more "mobile and offensive" role for that.
I wasn't suggesting that creep should recede instantly, but they could - maybe - add a creep removing capability to Psi Storm and EMP. That sounds about fair, because there is no way to speed up the removal process while there is to spread it (by planting more tumors close to each other or even dump the stuff from Overlords).
The rest of your "argumentation" is pure whining about MULEs (which has nothing to do with the functionality of creep receding or bunkers being built) and so on.
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Some terrans want a lategame upgrade for tanks, so I had a little idea to up this thing : give to siege tanks the building upgrades :
- Hi-Sec Auto Tracking : +1 or +2 range ? Tanks will have a bit more DPS cause they can shoot sooner.
- Building Armor : +2 armor ? +hp ? They will survive a bit longer.
These are small changes, but I think they're cool and will encourage T to do this upgrades.
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On February 11 2013 01:28 yolteotl wrote:
Some terrans want a lategame upgrade for tanks, so I had a little idea to up this thing : give to siege tanks the building upgrades :
- Hi-Sec Auto Tracking : +1 or +2 range ? Tanks will have a bit more DPS cause they can shoot sooner.
- Building Armor : +2 armor ? +hp ? They will survive a bit longer.
These are small changes, but I think they're cool and will encourage T to do this upgrades.
Tank range is already ridiculous and we have the Tempest with 15...so who cares? Try it out and see how it works out
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On February 11 2013 01:28 yolteotl wrote:
Some terrans want a lategame upgrade for tanks, so I had a little idea to up this thing : give to siege tanks the building upgrades :
- Hi-Sec Auto Tracking : +1 or +2 range ? Tanks will have a bit more DPS cause they can shoot sooner.
- Building Armor : +2 armor ? +hp ? They will survive a bit longer.
These are small changes, but I think they're cool and will encourage T to do this upgrades.
not the worst idea i ever heard
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On February 11 2013 10:15 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 01:28 yolteotl wrote:
Some terrans want a lategame upgrade for tanks, so I had a little idea to up this thing : give to siege tanks the building upgrades :
- Hi-Sec Auto Tracking : +1 or +2 range ? Tanks will have a bit more DPS cause they can shoot sooner.
- Building Armor : +2 armor ? +hp ? They will survive a bit longer.
These are small changes, but I think they're cool and will encourage T to do this upgrades. not the worst idea i ever heard
Building armor change - No
The Hi-Sec change - Actually one of the better ideas ive seen on these forums.
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what graphic setting is required to see the widowmines as dots on the ground without detection?
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Spore change was useless what a joke and wast of time, I'm GM on beta and zvz is still muta wars, Spores do nothing, Easy to micro around them.
unless 1 player wants to wast like their entire ecom to put spores to cover every inch of each of your bases/expos, the buff was useless. I still lose like 1 or 2 to 0 mutas when fighting zerg bases, once the muta flock gets large with upgrades i can 1 shot spores.
Only thing the spores did was prevent small 3-5 muta flocks (lol) from doing anything. such a bad patch.
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Blizzard just needs to give Hydras the range upgrade as default and it would help a lot of muta vs muta issues in ZvZ
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United States7166 Posts
that's not my experience with this patch, Lingblingbling. it seems like spores are very effective at shutting down muta harass. and when your muta ball gets big enough to 1 shot spores, it's so late that he's got a bunch of hydra/infestor and you'll just get fungaled if you try that
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On February 11 2013 13:51 Zelniq wrote:
that's not my experience with this patch, Lingblingbling. it seems like spores are very effective at shutting down muta harass. and when your muta ball gets big enough to 1 shot spores, it's so late that he's got a bunch of hydra/infestor and you'll just get fungaled if you try that
I'm only diamond and it's not difficult for me to use three different control groups if i'm going mass muta to prevent from losing them all to a single group of fungals. Not to mention hydras are shitty against mutas.
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On February 11 2013 13:51 Zelniq wrote:
that's not my experience with this patch, Lingblingbling. it seems like spores are very effective at shutting down muta harass. and when your muta ball gets big enough to 1 shot spores, it's so late that he's got a bunch of hydra/infestor and you'll just get fungaled if you try that
Well how many spores are you investing per base? I mean the way you said with spores makes it sound like 3 or so.
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On February 11 2013 13:51 Zelniq wrote:
that's not my experience with this patch, Lingblingbling. it seems like spores are very effective at shutting down muta harass. and when your muta ball gets big enough to 1 shot spores, it's so late that he's got a bunch of hydra/infestor and you'll just get fungaled if you try that
Yeah I had a theory before patch that 2 spores at each base should screw the muta timings long enough to get hydras for shutting down the Hydras, especially if you use the queens for healing. By the time they have enough Mutas, Hydras have a significant upgrade lead on the Mutas, and both range/speed Hydras are finished.
Seems to be working fairly well so far, although I only ran in to 3 or so ZvZ at this point.
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Wonder if blizzard wants to do something with tempest, or they consider useless broodlords in ZvP a normal thing.
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On February 11 2013 16:08 Alpina wrote:
Wonder if blizzard wants to do something with tempest, or they consider useless broodlords in ZvP a normal thing.
I dunno what they're trying to do with the Tempest. It started as a megascout that fired ball lightning, but then they turned it into a siege unit that slowly wore down an enemy from an absurd range. Thing is, Protoss already had a sort-of indirect-fire unit that honestly was much better designed and engaging, so it's just bleh.
They'll probably ignore the broodlord / battlecruiser problem until the 1.1 or something. They're more likely to screw with oracles again, since David and friends think we're just not using our heads when it comes to fighting skytoss.
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I think the next change will say that turrets will do bonus damage to medivacs with more than one hellbat in it....
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Anyone else think that with the addition of tempests, they could try removing energy bars from BCs?
All it really does is give BCs another hard counter in TvP, whereas the tempest is probably already the best counter for them in the game. They might actually have a place in the match-up this way as a surprise tech switch whereas maxed BC armies would still get owned by tempests.
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On February 11 2013 20:26 iRon aka bananajuice wrote:
I think the next change will say that turrets will do bonus damage to medivacs with more than one hellbat in it....
Slippery slope.
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On February 11 2013 16:08 Alpina wrote:
Wonder if blizzard wants to do something with tempest, or they consider useless broodlords in ZvP a normal thing.
funny i still see gm and hig hmaster play broodlords VERY successfull ...
for some zergs it seems to hard to ONLY build like 5-6 of them having them as SUPER STRONG support and not mass 20 and have a freewin
so: broodlords are totaly fine even vs tempest if you have a nice combo etc ... stop plz saying stuff you guys not really tested -.- so frustrating read all zergs cry because there mass 1-2 units a move win not work anymore ...
zergs now in hots really successfull so far but still alot zergs cry vs skytoss etc just cause they not switched to hots strategies
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On February 10 2013 20:38 DeCoup wrote:
Theres nothing unfair about that. Bunkers are intended as a defensive structure. The game should not be rebalanced just so you can use bunkers more offensively. Creep needs to receed slowly to allow time for queens to replant tumors after they have been wiped out. Terran make so many command centres that they can mule and scan all day. If Terran hes the ability to scan and wipe out screen after screen of creep, I dont think its too unfair for them to have to consider doing a second pass of the area shortly after to take out any queens or new tumors moving in.
Well, if I am not mistaken it takes about 30 seconds for creep to completely recede which is well enough time to plant new tumors. I think a minor decrease of the time it takes for creep to recede would not be unfair considering how fast creep spreads.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 11 2013 21:18 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 20:38 DeCoup wrote:
Theres nothing unfair about that. Bunkers are intended as a defensive structure. The game should not be rebalanced just so you can use bunkers more offensively. Creep needs to receed slowly to allow time for queens to replant tumors after they have been wiped out. Terran make so many command centres that they can mule and scan all day. If Terran hes the ability to scan and wipe out screen after screen of creep, I dont think its too unfair for them to have to consider doing a second pass of the area shortly after to take out any queens or new tumors moving in. Well, if I am not mistaken it takes about 30 seconds for creep to completely recede which is well enough time to plant new tumors. I think a minor decrease of the time it takes for creep to recede would not be unfair considering how fast creep spreads.
Were they not planning to do that in a patch once? Then after whatever event it was that MVP won they cancelled the patch for some reason.
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On February 11 2013 21:07 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 16:08 Alpina wrote:
Wonder if blizzard wants to do something with tempest, or they consider useless broodlords in ZvP a normal thing. funny i still see gm and hig hmaster play broodlords VERY successfull ... for some zergs it seems to hard to ONLY build like 5-6 of them having them as SUPER STRONG support and not mass 20 and have a freewin so: broodlords are totaly fine even vs tempest if you have a nice combo etc ... stop plz saying stuff you guys not really tested -.- so frustrating read all zergs cry because there mass 1-2 units a move win not work anymore ... zergs now in hots really successfull so far but still alot zergs cry vs skytoss etc just cause they not switched to hots strategies
Buidling BLs when toss has tempests? You should be kidding me. They snipe BL like nothing from 15 range. It's super hard counter to BLs, and it's just not worth building anymore at all. Better invest into any other unit.
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On February 11 2013 21:26 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 21:18 Baum wrote:On February 10 2013 20:38 DeCoup wrote:
Theres nothing unfair about that. Bunkers are intended as a defensive structure. The game should not be rebalanced just so you can use bunkers more offensively. Creep needs to receed slowly to allow time for queens to replant tumors after they have been wiped out. Terran make so many command centres that they can mule and scan all day. If Terran hes the ability to scan and wipe out screen after screen of creep, I dont think its too unfair for them to have to consider doing a second pass of the area shortly after to take out any queens or new tumors moving in. Well, if I am not mistaken it takes about 30 seconds for creep to completely recede which is well enough time to plant new tumors. I think a minor decrease of the time it takes for creep to recede would not be unfair considering how fast creep spreads. Were they not planning to do that in a patch once? Then after whatever event it was that MVP won they cancelled the patch for some reason.
Nah, they planned to nerf creep tumor range by 1. They've never adjusted the way creep recedes as far as I can remember.
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Hey guys, is there any online source (kept up to date) where we can read the current unit stats / spell effects / cost / etc.. of HotS beta units (including WoL revamped units)?
Going back through all the patch changes to see what holds now and what doesn't is a bit bothersome.
Anyway, what's the state of current Raven's seeker missile in beta patch #13? I remember that it costs 75 energy and is AoE again, but how much damage does it deal? Cooldown? Time to release the missile? Missile speed? etc..
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On February 11 2013 21:57 ZenithM wrote:
Hey guys, is there any online source (kept up to date) where we can read the current unit stats / spell effects / cost / etc.. of HotS beta units (including WoL revamped units)?
Going back through all the patch changes to see what holds now and what doesn't is a bit bothersome.
Anyway, what's the state of current Raven's seeker missile in beta patch #13? I remember that it costs 75 energy and is AoE again, but how much damage does it deal? Cooldown? Time to release the missile? Missile speed? etc..
4th post in this thread + Liquipedia for new units stats.
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On February 11 2013 22:00 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 21:57 ZenithM wrote:
Hey guys, is there any online source (kept up to date) where we can read the current unit stats / spell effects / cost / etc.. of HotS beta units (including WoL revamped units)?
Going back through all the patch changes to see what holds now and what doesn't is a bit bothersome.
Anyway, what's the state of current Raven's seeker missile in beta patch #13? I remember that it costs 75 energy and is AoE again, but how much damage does it deal? Cooldown? Time to release the missile? Missile speed? etc.. 4th post in this thread + Liquipedia for new units stats.
Oh missed it, nice.
I think Liquipedia should have a HotS section in each modified WoL unit's page.
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On February 11 2013 22:10 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:00 Alpina wrote:On February 11 2013 21:57 ZenithM wrote:
Hey guys, is there any online source (kept up to date) where we can read the current unit stats / spell effects / cost / etc.. of HotS beta units (including WoL revamped units)?
Going back through all the patch changes to see what holds now and what doesn't is a bit bothersome.
Anyway, what's the state of current Raven's seeker missile in beta patch #13? I remember that it costs 75 energy and is AoE again, but how much damage does it deal? Cooldown? Time to release the missile? Missile speed? etc.. 4th post in this thread + Liquipedia for new units stats. Oh missed it, nice. I think Liquipedia should have a HotS section in each modified WoL unit's page.
Yeah it would be nice, or even better whole separate page for all old and new Hots units.
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why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push
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On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push
I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong.
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On February 11 2013 21:07 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 16:08 Alpina wrote:
Wonder if blizzard wants to do something with tempest, or they consider useless broodlords in ZvP a normal thing. funny i still see gm and hig hmaster play broodlords VERY successfull ... for some zergs it seems to hard to ONLY build like 5-6 of them having them as SUPER STRONG support and not mass 20 and have a freewin so: broodlords are totaly fine even vs tempest if you have a nice combo etc ... stop plz saying stuff you guys not really tested -.- so frustrating read all zergs cry because there mass 1-2 units a move win not work anymore ... zergs now in hots really successfull so far but still alot zergs cry vs skytoss etc just cause they not switched to hots strategies
Whenever I read a race accusing another race of a-moving, I become instantly aware that that players has no idea how other races are actually played. Even if you think it's balanced, it doesn't mean that other players are losing to Skytoss because they aren't trying to think of strategies and want to instantly win. Necessary unit compositions have changed drastically, and you're bound to see people disagree about balance. So I agree with you that players have not yet adequately adjusted to HotS strategies, but I disagree that it's because they just want to "mass 1-2 units a move win."
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I've been hellbat dropped a few times, but if you react fast enough, it doesn't kill much because hellbats are sluggish. The problem is having units to actually deal with those things healed by the speed medivac :D
Though I've never had any trouble winning because my own hellbat drop comes earlier than my opponent's so I kill his army producing capabilities earlier.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 11 2013 07:04 mrjpark wrote:Tank range is already ridiculous and we have the Tempest with 15...so who cares? Try it out and see how it works out
Too bad that vs. Zerg even with your "ridiculous" range the tank barely fires 2-3 shots before he dies, making it not really cost-effective (unless manually targeting banelings/infestors - all of that while you are splitting your bio).
And does it make a difference against Protoss where his shells are barely tickling enemy units.
The tank is a piece of shit and everyone (good at the game) knows that. No wonder after 50% dmg reduction to light and some dmg reduction to armored.
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On February 11 2013 23:11 Elvin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 07:04 mrjpark wrote:Tank range is already ridiculous and we have the Tempest with 15...so who cares? Try it out and see how it works out Too bad that vs. Zerg even with your "ridiculous" range the tank barely fires 2-3 shots before he dies, making it not really cost-effective (unless manually targeting banelings/infestors - all of that while you are splitting your bio). And does it make a difference against Protoss where his shells are barely tickling enemy units. The tank is a piece of shit and everyone (good at the game) knows that. No wonder after 50% dmg reduction to light and some dmg reduction to armored.
And a range increase wouldn't even change that. Most of the time in non-mirror matchups, bar scans, you don't even have enough vision to use the full range.
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On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong.
may be the terrans in wood and bronze league?
every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt
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On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt
I don't know about hellbats in TvT, but map awareness - are you kidding me? ;p Boosted medivac comes into your main in like 2 seconds and even if you pull your workers, then he will just drop on them, so pulling workers if usually even worse.
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hmm these changes are fairly good.
Still hots as a whole kind of sucks.
Widow mines are useful in all matchups now without being too strong i guess. I still don't like the design of the unit being a bit too good against air harass and being a bit crappy lategame but at least it's not a terrible design anymore. It's a nice buff against protoss I didn't except they would ever use.
From a design point of view these changes are quite ugly as +shield damage and +biological air damage are just other words + damage vs P and + damage vs Z basically. I wonder what made them never use these options before but suddenly embrace them now, I guess they realise they don't know any other options then these. In the same line they can basically add tanks ignore hardened shields soon...
I really like these zerg changes to give them a little more early game oomph though. I doubt they will do much if at all but just small nudges to make zerg a little less predictable early on is good. With the new hots options they can at least (fake) some interesting tactics a bit more. OV speed on the way to lair can become pretty common but not a must which is exactly what upgrades like these should be, interesting decisions that are not a must. Especially agianst protoss it seems very useful for keeping your overlords alive.
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The harvester kills is really not the biggest deal. The most threatening hellbat drops are done with gas first on 1 base, so are rather all in. You can afford to lose 10 or so workers if you're on 2 bases. If you're on 1 base, I assume you can pay even more attention to your single mineral line and not lose much when they come in.
There is one big problem though. 4 hellbats + 1 medivac are not your usual 1 base harass force like 4 hellions, a banshee, 4 zealots in a warpprism, some DTs. 4 hellbats + 1 medivac is a fucking strong army early on, cost efficient against almost everything on the ground, that's the problem. I play the Terran side of things, so it's not like I'm complaining, but it's very rare for me to be cost inefficient with a 4 hellbat drop assuming I can keep my medivac alive at the end of the attack. Your 4 hellbats can just sit in the deserted mineral line for like a minute before your opponent has enough to deal with it. And if he makes the mistake to engage with a weaker force - that is to say everything that doesn't contain a hellbat (;D), a 1 base all in army, or air units -, you will murder him with minimal hellbat losses.
One thing though, Protoss and Zergs: you can actually try to kite this thing, the micro is intensive (for non-Terrans, that is, j/k j/k), but you should be able to kite a range 2 unit with a range 4 to 6 unit, and pick off the medivac slowly when he's close enough.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 12 2013 00:11 Markwerf wrote:
hmm these changes are fairly good.
Still hots as a whole kind of sucks.
Widow mines are useful in all matchups now without being too strong i guess. I still don't like the design of the unit being a bit too good against air harass and being a bit crappy lategame but at least it's not a terrible design anymore. It's a nice buff against protoss I didn't except they would ever use.
From a design point of view these changes are quite ugly as +shield damage and +biological air damage are just other words + damage vs P and + damage vs Z basically. I wonder what made them never use these options before but suddenly embrace them now, I guess they realise they don't know any other options then these. In the same line they can basically add tanks ignore hardened shields soon...
I really like these zerg changes to give them a little more early game oomph though. I doubt they will do much if at all but just small nudges to make zerg a little less predictable early on is good. With the new hots options they can at least (fake) some interesting tactics a bit more. OV speed on the way to lair can become pretty common but not a must which is exactly what upgrades like these should be, interesting decisions that are not a must. Especially agianst protoss it seems very useful for keeping your overlords alive.
I think the main reason they went with what they did is it was the only way of improving both of them without making them crazy good against everything else.
Spore crawlers are pretty damn good against every piece of air minus mass mutalisks as they can target them down so fast and widow mines damage wise were good both terran and zerg, however against toss due to the shield mechanic they could never really do the damage they needed to do. It's not a pretty way of balancing things, but it's not too much of a big deal as it solves the problems that were there (sort of).
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On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:
I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.
I think you are pretty deluded dude.
The battle hellion is very very strong together with the ferrarivacs, and it most definately need looking into. If there was only a way to make them do less damage to workers without changeing the whole game up.
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On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt
When did MLG become bronze league? If you can't be bothered to watch, at least read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397962
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On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt
You are a clown. I agree that you can dodge hellbat drops and it's not that hard the problem is that it's actually difficult to muster a proper defense. Zerglings, Marines and Zealots don't do anything against them at all. Stalkers, Marauders and Queens don't last too long either. I'm very curious how you are going to defend a hellbat drop when going for banshees.
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TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops?
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On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops?
Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah.
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On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops?
I hope you're joking because this is by far the worst comparison I have ever seen on TL. There is no resemblance between Hellbat drops and Reaver drops.
Try harder.
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On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah.
He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D
Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess.
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On February 12 2013 00:25 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt When did MLG become bronze league? If you can't be bothered to watch, at least read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397962
Well,to be fair, most of the players that have played so far are still focused on WoL so they have no idea about the HoTS meta.
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On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess.
If it was a joke, I can understand, but what's the point of the joke? That the community wanted strong stuff like reaver drop and that when they get something like hellbat drops then they complain? Like I said earlier, there's a huge difference. Small numbers of hellbats the way they are now are just too flexible versus pretty much everything early-mid game. I've said before that hellbat drops reminded me of when people complained about marauder drops, except with 10 more hp, aoe damage and better dps. One of the biggest complaints about a marauder drop was that small number of marauders basically "countered everything", allowing free reign for the mauraders to do whatever they wanted (which was a large overstatement btw). Now you have the same problem except exacerbated, with hellbats being able to destroy probes easily while being able to fight most units cost effectively due to being relatively tanky with medivac healing support. The thing is, hellion drops existed before hellbat drops and came even earlier, but hellion drops weren't cost effective versus fighting units, and it was hard to do damage with hellions without good micro. You could research blue flame to kill probes easier, but it set you behind economically and potentially gave you dead weight in hellion supply (if you weren't going mech). With hellbat drops, you all you have to do (differently) is build an armory, which gives you access to higher tech AND better upgrades, which is what you want when teching towards mech. Plus for the price of an armory, you get better probe killing power, cost efficiency versus core fighting units ALL FOR 50 LESS GAS AND A LOT FASTER BUILDING/RESEARCH TIME (comparing cost of blue flame upgrade and armory). Anybody else seeing the problem here?
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On February 12 2013 00:49 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:25 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 23:48 MiCroLiFe wrote:On February 11 2013 22:33 Excludos wrote:On February 11 2013 22:27 MiCroLiFe wrote:
why do so many NON terrans complain about hellbat drop? Everyone Over gold level should have the time to take the probes/drones away... AND do you hear us terran MOAN and cry about baneling drops? which are 10 times better? instant kill... WE terran learn to use the minimap and multitask... Now in hots all zergs cry and moan when i drop 3 plases at once.. JUST be better.. WE terran are always lower ranked than we should be, if you compare the skill.. I got the mechanics as a top master protoss/zerg but im stil just top dia.. WE cant A move to win.. we HAVE to multitask alot to even have a chance to win.. about time other races have to do the same..
Ultraisk is stril to strong vs bio. No one goes bio vs zerg anymore.. soo we have 1 strat vs zerg.. funn.... AND toss is stil to op if u cant kill them whit ur first push I'm sorry? Terrans are the worst whiners about hellbat drops because its ruining TvT more than anything else. Do your research please. I think its fair to say that once a race starts complaining about its own units, something is wrong. may be the terrans in wood and bronze league? every terran can easely dodge those drops cause we have minimap awarness... I never have problems dodging hellbat drops.. I go for banshe in tvt When did MLG become bronze league? If you can't be bothered to watch, at least read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397962 Well,to be fair, most of the players that have played so far are still focused on WoL so they have no idea about the HoTS meta.
I agree, they're not hots experts. None of us are to be honest. But they still have the best mechanics in the business. If they can't stop hellbat drops, I have a hard time imagining anyone being able to.
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On February 08 2013 10:05 avilo wrote:
Oh, and wait a minute, what? More early game buffs for Zerg? ....
Err...pretty much the opposite?
Spores deal bonus damage to biological...but there's only one race with biological fliers: Zerg! So...this only affects ZvZ and doesn't buff the race in any way shape or form.
Fungal gets nerfed. This is...pretty much a straight nerf to Zerg.
Pneumatized Carapace is the upgrade that a lot of pros never get (unless they are also getting drops). Like...seriously, even in the old 35-minute WoL games where pros got 3/3/3/3/3 (back when the range upgrade mattered), adrenal glands, burrow, chitinous plating, centrifugal hooks, and 5-10 overseers at any one time, Pneumatized Carapace was still often skipped for the full 35 minutes. And that's in long games when Overlords have more abilities. There really isn't anything you can do with speedy overlords when you don't have a Lair, anyway. You can't generate creep without lair, you can't research Ventral Sacs without lair. You could scout, but why not get a Lair and an Overseer instead? Assuming you were going to get the lair anyway, it's cheaper (50/50 instead of 100/100). Although sure: if you're willing to delay your lair you can get speed overlords 37 seconds before the Lair->Overseer route completes an overseer. This is like...imagine Blizzard trying to convince protosses to research hallucination before Warpgates if the Observer was a gateway unit unlocked by the Twilight Council. Not going to happen.
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On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess.
Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles
I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny
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i think the real change with pneumatized carapace that people are missing is that you can now research overlord speed and drop at the same time with one lair and one hatch
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On February 12 2013 04:54 summerloud wrote:
i think the real change with pneumatized carapace that people are missing is that you can now research overlord speed and drop at the same time with one lair and one hatch
You can and have always been able to do that (in WoL, too).
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On February 12 2013 04:54 summerloud wrote:
i think the real change with pneumatized carapace that people are missing is that you can now research overlord speed and drop at the same time with one lair and one hatch
No, you could always do that. Just need a lair. The upgrades themselves can be researched in hatcheries.
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On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny
Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA.
Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it.
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On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it.
Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny.
You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant.
They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny!
I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat
Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units.
But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it
So please, let's chill out and relax here.
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On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here.
No, seriously dude. Shuttles are nothing like medivacs and Reavers are nothing like Hellbats. It's as simple as that, it's a terrible comparison. Just let it go. -_-
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On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here.
*facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops.
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On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable.
I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted."
I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else.
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Thieving Magpie, in case you hadn't noticed, everything that Blizzard does in regards to SC2 is wrong. Everything.
They could perfectly replicate SC:BW with better graphics and the SC:BW with better graphics crowd would find something (purely placebo-based) to whine about for months, if not years. Ditto goes for the rest of the people whining on these forums with their own respective hang-ups. If Blizzard implemented exactly what they wanted, they'd be bitching about the implementation within days when it (inevitably) ended up playing out in a way that worsened the game.
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On February 12 2013 09:14 RampancyTW wrote:
Thieving Magpie, in case you hadn't noticed, everything that Blizzard does in regards to SC2 is wrong. Everything.
They could perfectly replicate SC:BW with better graphics and the SC:BW with better graphics crowd would find something (purely placebo-based) to whine about for months, if not years. Ditto goes for the rest of the people whining on these forums with their own respective hang-ups. If Blizzard implemented exactly what they wanted, they'd be bitching about the implementation within days when it (inevitably) ended up playing out in a way that worsened the game.
I wish this wasn't true
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On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else.
Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you.
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On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops.
Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops?
You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of
1) drop
2) harassment
3) AOE damage
And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.)
On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you.
It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with.
Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about.
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On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you.
Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA!
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On February 12 2013 04:54 summerloud wrote:
i think the real change with pneumatized carapace that people are missing is that you can now research overlord speed and drop at the same time with one lair and one hatch
Well if people can't immediately see the utility in something it must be stupid and useless .. .
I hadn't thought much about the change but that would be a great way to utilize and could lead to some interesting early game play.
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On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA!
Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos.
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On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
[quote]
Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA! Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos.
I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible.
Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it.
Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all
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If they do nerd hell at drop I hope they do something like making it so you can only load 2 hellbats in a drop ship(hellion unchanged) or that you can't load hellbats only hellions. This way t can keep the afterburners on Medivacs wich make old Terran unit comps like bio feel new agian. Also its so nice to actually be able to drop Zerg past the 12 minute mark agian.
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On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D
Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA! Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos. I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible. Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it. Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all
You are right in that it doesnt really matter if a drop goes badly in SC2, but your conclusion is wrong. Why was it such a big deal in BW when you lost the Reaver shuttle? Because you couldnt replace it easily. Thus the ECONOMY in SC2 is too big and needs to be nerfed. If Blizzard would do that there would be fewer units on the battlefield and keeping them alive would become more important.
Anyways ... it is PROTOSS which needs a good and droppable unit and not Terran, so Blizzard screwed up again.
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On February 12 2013 15:07 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:[quote] Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA! Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos. I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible. Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it. Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all You are right in that it doesnt really matter if a drop goes badly in SC2, but your conclusion is wrong. Why was it such a big deal in BW when you lost the Reaver shuttle? Because you couldnt replace it easily. Thus the ECONOMY in SC2 is too big and needs to be nerfed. If Blizzard would do that there would be fewer units on the battlefield and keeping them alive would become more important. Anyways ... it is PROTOSS which needs a good and droppable unit and not Terran, so Blizzard screwed up again.
warp prism with HTs and 3/3 chargelots is one of the most powerful drop in the whole game.
not to mention adding the mass warp ins
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On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you.
The defender of an attack harass almost always has to micro more than the attacker. The reason is that the attacker has to invest in the infrastructure, the units and depending on the harass additional tech for the timing. If he does no damage he is behind even if he does not loose his harass units.
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On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D
Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA! Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos. I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible. Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it. Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all
Cost wise it's about even. 400/100 to harass with a reaver, 500/100 to harass with hellions.
The difference is focus. Unless you babysat the reaver drop 110% you will lose it and the scarabs will auto attack a supply depot. Things are easier to multitask with SC2 so doing a hellbat drop does not ruin your macro the way doing a reaver drop ruins your macro.
More than anything it's the UI limitation. Both require about the same amount of micro--but when you micro a reaver in BW you couldn't afford to go back to your main to make pylons, make workers, send workers to harvest, produce units, reposition the main army, scout, and then go back to the shuttle. The shuttle didn't gain speed from a push of a button but instead reached top speed and was never allowed to decelerate (in order to maintain speed).
The micro and macro was harder which meant that focus was a precious commodity that reaver harass sucked up like a sponge.
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On February 12 2013 16:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 15:07 Rabiator wrote:On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:
[quote]
Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA.
Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it.
Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA! Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos. I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible. Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it. Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all You are right in that it doesnt really matter if a drop goes badly in SC2, but your conclusion is wrong. Why was it such a big deal in BW when you lost the Reaver shuttle? Because you couldnt replace it easily. Thus the ECONOMY in SC2 is too big and needs to be nerfed. If Blizzard would do that there would be fewer units on the battlefield and keeping them alive would become more important. Anyways ... it is PROTOSS which needs a good and droppable unit and not Terran, so Blizzard screwed up again. warp prism with HTs and 3/3 chargelots is one of the most powerful drop in the whole game. not to mention adding the mass warp ins
Throw in a DT if you want to be extra annoying.
Not to mention that Immortal drops are incredible strong. They are just not really good vs T and Z in WoL, because immortals aren't too good vs pure bio play and because Protoss has a really hard time to tech to immortals + drop and get a safe third vs Zerg.
But the units to drop are definatly there. Both micro intense snipers, as well as throw-away high costefficiency ones.
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On February 12 2013 16:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 15:07 Rabiator wrote:On February 12 2013 14:22 Excludos wrote:On February 12 2013 13:59 EleanorRIgby wrote:On February 12 2013 09:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:
[quote]
Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA.
Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it.
Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. Oh no!! Both players can't a-move! Run for the hills! IMBA IMBA IMBA! Lol yea, and its always gonna be harder to defend any harass. You know how hard it is to defend late game zealot warps in tvp and also burrowed infestors spamming IT at all your expos. I'm starting to wonder if the real reason we love reaver drops, but hate stuff like baneling and lollion drop is simply because losing reavers in bw was a huge deal. If you lost that shuttle with 2 reavers, you where in deep. In sc2, its very easy to just send one dropship full of hellbats to each location, and then simply not care what happens to them. Sure if you have some excess micro, you could do a bit more damage, and its always nice to save those extra minerals if you manage to pull out. But its not like its a huge blow if you happen to lose a couple of dropships. While the defender will be left completely crippled in his economy should he fail to deal with the drops perfectly, which if happening at different places all at once while he's poking your army at the front, is near impossible. Since increasing unit cost isn't really viable, how about increasing medivac cost a bit? How about having medivacs spawn without the booster, and having to install each one for, say, 100/100? (random number). That way medivacs used for the army stay the same in price, while those used for drops become increasingly valuable. It also potentially delays the hellbat drop a bit longer, as you'll either have to drop without the booster, or wait for it to finish. Giving the defenders, especially in TvT, those valuable extra seconds they need to get ready for it. Am I on to something here? I might be completely delirious. Its 6:20am after all You are right in that it doesnt really matter if a drop goes badly in SC2, but your conclusion is wrong. Why was it such a big deal in BW when you lost the Reaver shuttle? Because you couldnt replace it easily. Thus the ECONOMY in SC2 is too big and needs to be nerfed. If Blizzard would do that there would be fewer units on the battlefield and keeping them alive would become more important. Anyways ... it is PROTOSS which needs a good and droppable unit and not Terran, so Blizzard screwed up again. warp prism with HTs and 3/3 chargelots is one of the most powerful drop in the whole game. not to mention adding the mass warp ins
They arent DROP units ... they are warped in. Zealots are relatively slow at killing off buildings when compared to Marines / Marauders with stim. Zealots also are melee and not at all AoE damage units which is the point of the Reaver drop. With warping in Zealots you can deal damage, BUT it isnt microable as a Marine or Reaver drop is ... so the gameplay is totally different.
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Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation.
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On February 12 2013 19:18 DeCoup wrote:
Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation.
Why not? Just to point out what Protoss DOESNT have ...
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On February 12 2013 19:32 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 19:18 DeCoup wrote:
Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation. Why not? Just to point out what Protoss DOESNT have ...
Yeah, and they don't have marine drops either. Nor do they have F22 King Raptors or Kirovs.
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On February 12 2013 19:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 19:32 Rabiator wrote:On February 12 2013 19:18 DeCoup wrote:
Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation. Why not? Just to point out what Protoss DOESNT have ... Yeah, and they don't have marine drops either. Nor do they have F22 King Raptors or Kirovs.
Would it be comparable if hellbats had 9 range or if hellbats had 125 damage? Which one?
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On February 12 2013 19:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 19:47 Big J wrote:On February 12 2013 19:32 Rabiator wrote:On February 12 2013 19:18 DeCoup wrote:
Stop using reaver drops as an example. They are nothing like this situation. Why not? Just to point out what Protoss DOESNT have ... Yeah, and they don't have marine drops either. Nor do they have F22 King Raptors or Kirovs. Would it be comparable if hellbats had 9 range or if hellbats had 125 damage? Which one?
would need testing... It's a different game, a different unit on a different race. Even if it had exactly reaver stats, you might no be able to recreate reaver drop gameplay.
I just wanted "to point out what Protoss DOESNT have" apart from reavers. It sounded like pointing out what they don't have is already a great argument for giving them exactly that thing.
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On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about.
My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop.
EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game.
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On February 13 2013 01:09 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
[quote]
Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about. My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop. EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game.
They are similar and that's a fact. I think you should stop, and learn what the word "similar" means.
"Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical."
I'm not saying they're identical, that's another word and meaning, of which you are putting into my mouth. As you say, it's so ridiculous that I shouldn't even have to explain that I wasn't saying they are identical.
Also, do you realize how many things DON'T fall under having those 3 things?
It's hard to argue when you exaggerate to extremes like "nothing". By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense.
Anyways, you missed the point of my post, as I was pointing out that the quoted person was saying you cannot compare two similar things, but then goes on to do it himself. I was not and am not arguing the degree of how similar they are.
Here, you do it yourself too, by contrasting shuttles and medivacs and hellbats and reavers, but yet say they are NOTHING alike. Because you listed the differences between them, and acknowledge that both reavers and hellbats are droppable, for harass, and have AOE, they are indeed similar, and thus you are doing the same thing as the quoted (saying they are nothing alike, but going on to compare and contrast). Also the degree of which two things are similar does not change the fact that they are similar or not. A polar bear has a similarity to a human in that they're both living, they both eat, they both sleep. Very broad things, but then consider all the things in this world that DON'T live, don't eat, don't sleep (rocks, plants, etc.).
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On February 13 2013 02:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:09 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D
Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about. My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop. EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game. They are similar and that's a fact. I think you should stop, and learn what the word "similar" means. "Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical." I'm not saying they're identical, that's another word and meaning, of which you are putting into my mouth. As you say, it's so ridiculous that I shouldn't even have to explain that I wasn't saying they are identical. Also, do you realize how many things DON'T fall under having those 3 things? It's hard to argue when you exaggerate to extremes like "nothing". By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense. Anyways, you missed the point of my post, as I was pointing out that the quoted person was saying you cannot compare two similar things, but then goes on to do it himself. I was not and am not arguing the degree of how similar they are. Here, you do it yourself too, by contrasting shuttles and medivacs and hellbats and reavers, but yet say they are NOTHING alike. Because you listed the differences between them, and acknowledge that both reavers and hellbats are droppable, for harass, and have AOE, they are indeed similar, and thus you are doing the same thing as the quoted (saying they are nothing alike, but going on to compare and contrast). Also the degree of which two things are similar does not change the fact that they are similar or not. A polar bear has a similarity to a human in that they're both living, they both eat, they both sleep. Very broad things, but then consider all the things in this world that DON'T live, don't eat, don't sleep (rocks, plants, etc.).
I don't know how to explain how flabbergasted I am at your comments. I'm just speechless.So are we supposed to acknowledge every similarity even though they have nothing to do with each other? And what does that even have to do with the problem that I had, that USING REAVER DROPS TO JUSTIFY HELLBAT DROPS IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT. And no, I did not say you could not compare two similar things. I said using one similar thing to justify another similar thing is invalid because it's like comparing apples and oranges. I mean I've tried to avoid arguing in schematics, trying to define differences, and saying that even though two things seem similar, they have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PRINCIPLES. I mean just look at your silly generalized argument. You claim that hellbat drops and reaver are comparable because they fit the following principles:
1) drop
2) harassment
3) AOE damage
Wow. That has to be the biggest generalization I've seen in my entire life. You know what else fits that requirement? Normal hellion drops. HT storm drops. Overlord baneling drops. Colossus drops. Are we going to compare Colossus drops to Reaver drops now? They're pretty similar. 9 range, pick up drop micro, use of a shuttle/warp prism. Hey guys, Colossus drops are the same thing as reaver drops! Colossus drops have to have the same effectiveness of reaver drops, right? Sometimes I wish people would READ my arguments instead of violently reacting to everything they could take out of context :/
Oh and btw using "It requires a lot of micro" is not a valid argument either. It doesn't matter how much micro something requires, if mastering that micro give you an unfair advantage against your opponent then it shouldn't be allowed in the game. Just look at ghost snipe. Even though everyone acknowledged how much micro sniping took, the lead you could take by sniping key units was enough to justify its nerf (not to say that I agree with that snipe was overpowered, but I'm just giving an example). Every race should have access to that sort of micro potential if we're really going to try to justify it.
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On February 13 2013 02:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:09 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 00:27 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TL community asked for reaver drops.
Blizz gives them melee reaver drops.
TL community whines.
I guess TL doesn't like reaver drops? Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D
Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about. My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop. EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game. They are similar and that's a fact. I think you should stop, and learn what the word "similar" means. "Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical." I'm not saying they're identical, that's another word and meaning, of which you are putting into my mouth. As you say, it's so ridiculous that I shouldn't even have to explain that I wasn't saying they are identical. Also, do you realize how many things DON'T fall under having those 3 things? It's hard to argue when you exaggerate to extremes like "nothing". By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense. Anyways, you missed the point of my post, as I was pointing out that the quoted person was saying you cannot compare two similar things, but then goes on to do it himself. I was not and am not arguing the degree of how similar they are. Here, you do it yourself too, by contrasting shuttles and medivacs and hellbats and reavers, but yet say they are NOTHING alike. Because you listed the differences between them, and acknowledge that both reavers and hellbats are droppable, for harass, and have AOE, they are indeed similar, and thus you are doing the same thing as the quoted (saying they are nothing alike, but going on to compare and contrast). Also the degree of which two things are similar does not change the fact that they are similar or not. A polar bear has a similarity to a human in that they're both living, they both eat, they both sleep. Very broad things, but then consider all the things in this world that DON'T live, don't eat, don't sleep (rocks, plants, etc.).
THE ONLY SIMILARITY BETWEEN A SHUTTLE AND A MEDIVAC IS THAT THEY ARE FLYING UNITS THAT CAN CARRY OTHER UNITS. THAT'S IT. THE COMPARISON ENDS THERE. EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE UNITS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. And that's just a Shuttle vs Medivac the differences between Reavers and Hellbats are even more extreme. I AM NOT EXAGGERATING. YOU ARE.
EDIT: And before someone makes the claim I am angry, I am not. I simply think typing in caps may be necessary to get these things through your thick skull.
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I'm really curious why you two are having an unnecessary nerd battle. You're comparing two completely different games with entirely different dynamics. Just relax please and get back on topic.
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I don't know why people complain about Hellbat drops, Reaver/Shuttle drops were almost the same in broodwar, and cost less to boot.
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On February 13 2013 03:25 Harbinger631 wrote:
I don't know why people complain about Hellbat drops, Reaver/Shuttle drops were almost the same in broodwar, and cost less to boot.
oO
balls of steel posting this, just two posts after those rants... 
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On February 13 2013 03:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 03:25 Harbinger631 wrote:
I don't know why people complain about Hellbat drops, Reaver/Shuttle drops were almost the same in broodwar, and cost less to boot. oO balls of steel posting this, just two posts after those rants...
Got to admit, I smirked and smiled when I read it too. Kudos
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On February 13 2013 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 03:28 Big J wrote:On February 13 2013 03:25 Harbinger631 wrote:
I don't know why people complain about Hellbat drops, Reaver/Shuttle drops were almost the same in broodwar, and cost less to boot. oO balls of steel posting this, just two posts after those rants... Got to admit, I smirked and smiled when I read it too. Kudos
I cant tell if he is trolling. Also, from my reading on SC2, everything is like a Reaver Drop. Except DT drops, which are like DT drops.
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TBH I don't think that hellbat drops are imbalanced, or to be honest I don't know if they're imbalanced right now. What is imbalanced, even broken is EARLY hellbat drops. And it has nothing to do with the medivac speed. It's more the fact how easy it is to transition to and out of hellbat drops. Something as strong as hellbat drops just shouldn't be available to terran as a tool so early. Hellbat drops are just easier to perform and much more forgiving than two other fast harass options terran already had, normal/blue flame hellion drops and banshee harass. Plus you aren't punished for performing a hellbat than you would, say, a blue flame hellion drop because you don't have to worry about hellbats being dead weight in supply. Because of the just armory requirement to make hellbats, hellbats are just too exploitable early-midgame. Plus making an armory doesn't "set you behind" like researching cloak upgrade or blue flame upgrade would. You're going to end up making an armory anyway if you were making mech, or if you were going to get higher upgrades for your bio. Just make it so that you have to research blue flame upgrade to get the same power level that hellbats are right now and It would be fine with me.
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On February 13 2013 03:58 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
TBH I don't think that hellbat drops are imbalanced, or to be honest I don't know if they're imbalanced right now. What is imbalanced, even broken is EARLY hellbat drops. And it has nothing to do with the medivac speed. It's more the fact how easy it is to transition to and out of hellbat drops. Something as strong as hellbat drops just shouldn't be available to terran as a tool so early. Hellbat drops are just easier to perform and much more forgiving than two other fast harass options terran already had, normal/blue flame hellion drops and banshee harass. Plus you aren't punished for performing a hellbat than you would, say, a blue flame hellion drop because you don't have to worry about hellbats being dead weight in supply. Because of the just armory requirement to make hellbats, hellbats are just too exploitable early-midgame. Plus making an armory doesn't "set you behind" like researching cloak upgrade or blue flame upgrade would. You're going to end up making an armory anyway if you were making mech, or if you were going to get higher upgrades for your bio. Just make it so that you have to research blue flame upgrade to get the same power level that hellbats are right now and It would be fine with me.
I don't understand how spending 150/100 for an armory vs 150/150 for blueflame is that backbreakingly different?
I also don't understand how "going hellbat drop" doesn't set you behind when it sets you back as much as all other one base plays.
Pretty much anything that isn't 1RaxFE sets Terran's economy back...
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On February 13 2013 04:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 03:58 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
TBH I don't think that hellbat drops are imbalanced, or to be honest I don't know if they're imbalanced right now. What is imbalanced, even broken is EARLY hellbat drops. And it has nothing to do with the medivac speed. It's more the fact how easy it is to transition to and out of hellbat drops. Something as strong as hellbat drops just shouldn't be available to terran as a tool so early. Hellbat drops are just easier to perform and much more forgiving than two other fast harass options terran already had, normal/blue flame hellion drops and banshee harass. Plus you aren't punished for performing a hellbat than you would, say, a blue flame hellion drop because you don't have to worry about hellbats being dead weight in supply. Because of the just armory requirement to make hellbats, hellbats are just too exploitable early-midgame. Plus making an armory doesn't "set you behind" like researching cloak upgrade or blue flame upgrade would. You're going to end up making an armory anyway if you were making mech, or if you were going to get higher upgrades for your bio. Just make it so that you have to research blue flame upgrade to get the same power level that hellbats are right now and It would be fine with me. I don't understand how spending 150/100 for an armory vs 150/150 for blueflame is that backbreakingly different? I also don't understand how "going hellbat drop" doesn't set you behind when it sets you back as much as all other one base plays. Pretty much anything that isn't 1RaxFE sets Terran's economy back...
There's a huge difference between building a Reactor and an Armory and building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter in terms of your overall production ability and your tech advancements. Which would you rather have, a Factory with a Tech Lab researching Infernal Pre Igniter, or a Factory with a Reactor producing 2xHellions and an Armory that allows you to upgrade 2/2 infantry, 1/0 vehicles and gives all of your Hellions a free upgrade to Battle Hellions and all of your Tech Lab Factory's access to Thors.
There's just no arguing the point, nobody is building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter over building a Reactor and constructing an Armory anymore - the cost efficiency and tech advancement of the Armory is unmatched by any other tech structure.
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On February 13 2013 04:59 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 04:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 13 2013 03:58 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
TBH I don't think that hellbat drops are imbalanced, or to be honest I don't know if they're imbalanced right now. What is imbalanced, even broken is EARLY hellbat drops. And it has nothing to do with the medivac speed. It's more the fact how easy it is to transition to and out of hellbat drops. Something as strong as hellbat drops just shouldn't be available to terran as a tool so early. Hellbat drops are just easier to perform and much more forgiving than two other fast harass options terran already had, normal/blue flame hellion drops and banshee harass. Plus you aren't punished for performing a hellbat than you would, say, a blue flame hellion drop because you don't have to worry about hellbats being dead weight in supply. Because of the just armory requirement to make hellbats, hellbats are just too exploitable early-midgame. Plus making an armory doesn't "set you behind" like researching cloak upgrade or blue flame upgrade would. You're going to end up making an armory anyway if you were making mech, or if you were going to get higher upgrades for your bio. Just make it so that you have to research blue flame upgrade to get the same power level that hellbats are right now and It would be fine with me. I don't understand how spending 150/100 for an armory vs 150/150 for blueflame is that backbreakingly different? I also don't understand how "going hellbat drop" doesn't set you behind when it sets you back as much as all other one base plays. Pretty much anything that isn't 1RaxFE sets Terran's economy back... There's a huge difference between building a Reactor and an Armory and building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter in terms of your overall production ability and your tech advancements. Which would you rather have, a Factory with a Tech Lab researching Infernal Pre Igniter, or a Factory with a Reactor producing 2xHellions and an Armory that allows you to upgrade 2/2 infantry, 1/0 vehicles and gives all of your Hellions a free upgrade to Battle Hellions and all of your Tech Lab Factory's access to Thors. There's just no arguing the point, nobody is building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniter over building a Reactor and constructing an Armory anymore - the cost efficiency and tech advancement of the Armory is unmatched by any other tech structure.
Wait.. so your pumping double hellions and getting +1/+1 while getting an armory in time for +2/+2 while also pumping medivacs....
Um.... For free?
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On February 13 2013 03:08 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 02:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 13 2013 01:09 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
[quote]
Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:[quote] Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about. My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop. EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game. They are similar and that's a fact. I think you should stop, and learn what the word "similar" means. "Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical." I'm not saying they're identical, that's another word and meaning, of which you are putting into my mouth. As you say, it's so ridiculous that I shouldn't even have to explain that I wasn't saying they are identical. Also, do you realize how many things DON'T fall under having those 3 things? It's hard to argue when you exaggerate to extremes like "nothing". By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense. Anyways, you missed the point of my post, as I was pointing out that the quoted person was saying you cannot compare two similar things, but then goes on to do it himself. I was not and am not arguing the degree of how similar they are. Here, you do it yourself too, by contrasting shuttles and medivacs and hellbats and reavers, but yet say they are NOTHING alike. Because you listed the differences between them, and acknowledge that both reavers and hellbats are droppable, for harass, and have AOE, they are indeed similar, and thus you are doing the same thing as the quoted (saying they are nothing alike, but going on to compare and contrast). Also the degree of which two things are similar does not change the fact that they are similar or not. A polar bear has a similarity to a human in that they're both living, they both eat, they both sleep. Very broad things, but then consider all the things in this world that DON'T live, don't eat, don't sleep (rocks, plants, etc.). I don't know how to explain how flabbergasted I am at your comments. I'm just speechless.So are we supposed to acknowledge every similarity even though they have nothing to do with each other? And what does that even have to do with the problem that I had, that USING REAVER DROPS TO JUSTIFY HELLBAT DROPS IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT. And no, I did not say you could not compare two similar things. I said using one similar thing to justify another similar thing is invalid because it's like comparing apples and oranges. I mean I've tried to avoid arguing in schematics, trying to define differences, and saying that even though two things seem similar, they have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PRINCIPLES. I mean just look at your silly generalized argument. You claim that hellbat drops and reaver are comparable because they fit the following principles: 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage Wow. That has to be the biggest generalization I've seen in my entire life. You know what else fits that requirement? Normal hellion drops. HT storm drops. Overlord baneling drops. Colossus drops. Are we going to compare Colossus drops to Reaver drops now? They're pretty similar. 9 range, pick up drop micro, use of a shuttle/warp prism. Hey guys, Colossus drops are the same thing as reaver drops! Colossus drops have to have the same effectiveness of reaver drops, right? Sometimes I wish people would READ my arguments instead of violently reacting to everything they could take out of context :/ Oh and btw using "It requires a lot of micro" is not a valid argument either. It doesn't matter how much micro something requires, if mastering that micro give you an unfair advantage against your opponent then it shouldn't be allowed in the game. Just look at ghost snipe. Even though everyone acknowledged how much micro sniping took, the lead you could take by sniping key units was enough to justify its nerf (not to say that I agree with that snipe was overpowered, but I'm just giving an example). Every race should have access to that sort of micro potential if we're really going to try to justify it.
You are putting words into my mouth. No, I am not saying you should acknowledge every similarity, however it is necessary to do so to analyze via comparing and contrasting two units, to figure out each units' best roles, purposes, uses, strengths, weaknesses, etc.
I did not comment on whether or not I felt that reaver drops justify hellbats being balanced or not, because that is simply not my argument. I was only commenting on the part where you said "Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable."
And now you say "I did not say you could not compare two similar things". Which doesn't completely contradict the first one statement.
However... unless you can give me one example of two similar things that you CANNOT compare, you are wrong about that statement.
I hope this is clearer, I am not saying that two similar things justify each other. I am saying that you can always compare two different things as there's always similarities, and I was thus suggesting you be either clearer with your writing or not exaggerate as much.
You listed many similar things, like overlord drops and HT drops. These are indeed similar. However, of course, if you could somehow fit 30 banelings into one overlord and unload them all, you can still compare them. That does not mean that the HT drop being balanced justifies the 30 baneling in one overlord drop. By comparing these two, you could conclude things such as: 30 banelings in an overlord are good at killing bases, while HTs aren't.
Now, you didn't address some parts of what I said, so I'll just bring about the most relevant one. There are many things that are droppable, do AOE damage, and are harassment. But think of how many units do NOT fit those.
Phoenixes, Marines, Marauders, Zealots, Stalkers, Thors, Tanks, etc., or basically
anything that isn't a baneling, HT, archon, siege tank, hellion, colossus, ghost, infestor (that's roughly 15% of the units in the game)
Not very important, but those 3 criteria aren't as "broad" as you seem to be claiming. Even though dropping 4 banelings from one overlord is different from dropping 4 storm HTs from one warp prism, you can still compare their weaknesses and strengths.
One more thing: if you call my previous post a violent reaction, I don't know what your post is. Ad hominem, exaggeration, sarcasm, statement of being flabbergasted, etc.
On February 13 2013 03:17 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 02:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 13 2013 01:09 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 00:42 ZenithM wrote:On February 12 2013 00:39 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
[quote]
Are you talking about hellbat drops or mines? Because either way you're still comparing two different things. First of all, reaver drops came a lot later than hellbat or mine drops, so it was a lot easier to prepare for them. Also, reaver drops weren't really that cost effect against pure units like hellbats are. Plus they can't get healed by a shuttle. Plus you could only fit two reavers in a shuttle. You can fit four hellbats and mines in a medivac. Plus hellbats are just more reliable than reavers are. Aside from the buggy ai of the reaver, they are slow, clumsy and awkward (thus requiring shuttle support). I guess you can compare them to mines, but like hellbats, they are both a LOT cheaper to drop with than to drop a reaver. So, yeah, way to compare apples and oranges brah. He was joking. Nobody is comparing hellbats to reavers :D Although hellbats are like very smart invincible scarabs, I guess. Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. Far from in in fact. Assuming that you're "rushing" for that reaver drop, you still have to account for the time it takes to make each of the buildings too. Plus the fact that you have inflated economies (due to mules) of SC2 to factor in. See, you can't really build reavers until you get the robotics support bay, and you can't really use the reaver-shuttle to it's full potential until you get the speed upgrade for the shuttle, something you conveniently forgot in your cost, so you can add another 200/200 to the cost. Also you have to "buy" scarabs before you're even allowed to use the reaver. All of this takes a long time, compared to the hellbat drop where you can do everything at once. Plus, you have 4 hellbats, with reaver drops you have one reaver. Yes that makes a huge difference. With the huge aoe and constant attacking you essentially have a cone that has a bigger aoe than the "125 every few seconds" aoe. Plus the reaver would be easily sniped if it wasn't for the shuttle, not really the same case with the hellbat. The only reason reavers were still used is DESPITE all the downsides to the reaver the potential to do huge amounts of damage made up for it. Hellbat drops don't require nearly the same amount of apm, control, and time that reaver drops do. Reaver drops are nothing like hellbat drops. Did you really just say that you can't compare two similar things? Let alone any two things in existence? (All things have connections or similarities in some form.) And then you yourself go on to compare the two and say why they're NOTHING like hellbat drops? You can't just compare the costs like that either, there's so much more to consider such as still being able to defend certain attacks and harass and all. That's why the original comparison was so simple; all Thieving Magpie is comparing is that Hellbat drops and Reaver drops are both a form of 1) drop 2) harassment 3) AOE damage And that Hellbats and Reavers both need Medivacs/Shuttles to be able to be effective (catch up to the workers, dodge the defense, retreat, etc.) On February 12 2013 09:18 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 09:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 08:38 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On February 12 2013 07:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 12 2013 07:30 vRadiatioNv wrote:On February 12 2013 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:[quote] Mostly I was joking about having to run away from speed shuttles I mean, running away from a 400min/100gas shuttle reaver is not that different in cost from running away from a 500min/100gas medivac helldrop--which is why I thought it was funny Speed shuttles require an upgrade. Scarabs cost minerals. Scarabs can dud especially vs good sim city. Not to mention that was a completely different metagame with better forms of AA. Sorry but your comparison completely sucks and I see no humor in it. Whoa there soldier, taking this a tad serious are we? The funny is that people have always been asking for some strong aoe that needs a dropship to move around the map in order to be effective and now that they're given one that's melee in range they get upset--that's what's funny. You're getting all granular and overly specific with your "Reavers are perfectly balanced with their 9 range and 125 damage, it's the melee range Hellions that are OP!" rant. They are both AoE units that need dropships to move around in order to be effective, it's ironic that when people get what they're asking for they realize its not what they're asking for. That's what's funny! I mean, if you want to go the route of overly specific numbers you could say that Reaver Shuttle needs => Robo bay => Robo facility at the cost of 350/300 while Hellbats/Medivacs need Factory => Starport => Armory at the cost of 450/300 while the units themselves have a cost comparison of 400/100 for reaver/shuttle and 500/100 for medivac hellbat Total costs amounting to 750/400 for a reaver shuttle and 950/400 for a Hellbat drop with a difference of Reaver/Shuttle being 200 minerals cheaper than a hellbat drop, has 9 range, and deals 100 damage while Hellbat drops require dropping units in melee range and juggling multiple melee units in and out of medivacs in order to hit a few units. But I wasn't going to go there--mostly I wanted to joke about people asking for better splash and whining when they get it So please, let's chill out and relax here. *facepalm* You're still comparing apples and oranges at this point. Just because something is SIMILAR doesn't mean that they're comparable. I know--hence why it's a joke! Despite them having a similar cost and a similar use I didn't actually show up and say "This is the Reaver we've always wanted." I was pointing out that people have constantly wanted something that needs micro to use well. Juggling 2-4 firebats in a medivac that you use to chase down units is more micro than almost anything else in SC2; but people still whine about it. That is what's funny. People asked for a an AoE unit that moves by dropship and they were given it--but whined anyway, that's what's funny. You guys getting all upset for someone mentioning the reaver--that's perplexing more than anything else. Uh no, it doesn't take much micro at all. The whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a helluva lot more than the guy doing the medivac drop. Running and splitting workers and ground forces simultaneously is much harder than dropping and lifting Hellbats. On the other hand dealing with Reavers is much easier than dealing with Hellbats for obvious reasons that I shouldn't have to point out for you. It doesn't take much micro to put a turret next to your mineral line and run your workers away either. While the defender is able to (if he scouts or anticipates properly, hence is deserving to suffer minimal damage) prepare defenses before hand, the offender (unless he uses a costly scan) has to adapt and micro on the spot according to what defenses he has to deal with. Anyway, it's still subjective which is harder, and I don't agree that the whole point of the discussion is that the defender has to micro a lot more. Unless you just wanted to change the topic to that, a topic that Thieving Magpie was not talking about. My God. They're not similar. All you can say is "drop, harassment, AoE" do you realize how many things fall under those extremely broad categories? Shuttles are nothing like Medivacs, the harassment Hellbats do is nothing like Reavers, the AoE Hellbats do is nothing like Reaver AoE. I shouldn't have to even explain this, it's so ridiculous. Also you know 4 Hellbats kill a turret insanely fast right? MUCH faster than Reavers. Again, there is nothing similar between them at all. If all you can say is "a Shuttle is a type of dropship and so is a Medivac" you really should just stop right now. Shuttles =/= Medivacs and Reavers =/= Hellbats. Just stop. EDIT: I should also point out, I don't necessarily think that Hellbat drops are OP, but comparing them to other drops and forms of harassment is just stupid. Hellbat drops are Hellbat drops, that's it, there is nothing else "like" them in the game. They are similar and that's a fact. I think you should stop, and learn what the word "similar" means. "Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical." I'm not saying they're identical, that's another word and meaning, of which you are putting into my mouth. As you say, it's so ridiculous that I shouldn't even have to explain that I wasn't saying they are identical. Also, do you realize how many things DON'T fall under having those 3 things? It's hard to argue when you exaggerate to extremes like "nothing". By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense. Anyways, you missed the point of my post, as I was pointing out that the quoted person was saying you cannot compare two similar things, but then goes on to do it himself. I was not and am not arguing the degree of how similar they are. Here, you do it yourself too, by contrasting shuttles and medivacs and hellbats and reavers, but yet say they are NOTHING alike. Because you listed the differences between them, and acknowledge that both reavers and hellbats are droppable, for harass, and have AOE, they are indeed similar, and thus you are doing the same thing as the quoted (saying they are nothing alike, but going on to compare and contrast). Also the degree of which two things are similar does not change the fact that they are similar or not. A polar bear has a similarity to a human in that they're both living, they both eat, they both sleep. Very broad things, but then consider all the things in this world that DON'T live, don't eat, don't sleep (rocks, plants, etc.). THE ONLY SIMILARITY BETWEEN A SHUTTLE AND A MEDIVAC IS THAT THEY ARE FLYING UNITS THAT CAN CARRY OTHER UNITS. THAT'S IT. THE COMPARISON ENDS THERE. EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE UNITS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. And that's just a Shuttle vs Medivac the differences between Reavers and Hellbats are even more extreme. I AM NOT EXAGGERATING. YOU ARE. EDIT: And before someone makes the claim I am angry, I am not. I simply think typing in caps may be necessary to get these things through your thick skull.
You just admitted they are similar. Therefore, you were wrong, and me pointing out that you were wrong that they were "NOTHING" alike is right.
About your comment: I think it's funny you say that I have a thick skull, when you don't seem to realize that you just completely agreed with me.
Two of the three similarities I listed between a medivac and shuttle are that they are "ARE FLYING UNITS THAT CAN CARRY OTHER UNITS", which is what you said.
This is what I said: "By saying Shuttles are NOTHING like Medivacs, it's like you're saying that they don't fly, they can't pick up units, they aren't somewhat fragile to anti air defense"
There is a third similarity that I listed; putting turrets around your base, for example, is strong against both shuttles and medivacs. I think you'll agree with me here.
You still don't understand what a comparison is.
This is an example of comparing two different, non identical things:
Apples and oranges are both fruits. However, apples are red and oranges are orange. They both give different vitamins, but apples are more convenient to me because you don't need to peel them.
That does not mean that apples and oranges are THE SAME.
The same applies to medivacs to shuttles, and reavers and hellbats. I did not say anywhere they are the same, but you said they are NOTHING alike. I am saying there are similarities, and that you can compare them. And indeed you can compare them -- just like you did and still do. But instead you keep insisting I'm saying they are exactly the same and that you cannot compare them.
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EPT
