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On January 07 2013 09:11 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 08:47 CikaZombi wrote:On January 07 2013 08:05 ThomasjServo wrote:On January 07 2013 08:00 CikaZombi wrote:
How about they resign the Mine transformation upgrade, into a 200/200 upgrade that affects the Mine (obviously), Siege Tank, and Thor's transformation speed? It could be called Neosteel Servos or something.
I still don't think it would make Tanks or Thors strong enough but at least they are more versatile this way. I really don't follow. The mechling could shift a la Firebat, or siege tanks, and alter the form of damage it does and I assume not kill itself? Or do you mean to imply that it would set it self faster? Maybe something is going well above my head on what is being described here. Also siege tech is only 100/100 for cost, I would appreciate if you would elaborate here. I wrote it down while in the middle of something so perhaps I wasn't clear. The upgrade would be the same as now (reducing mine burrow speed from 3 seconds to 1), but it would also affect things like siege mode transformation speed and thor cannon change speed. Maybe even hellion to hellbat transformation speed. They are all quite long now, and while I realize tanks really need that siege to unsiege delay, I was just throwing it out there as food for thought  On the contrary it could be fun to make Tanks siege and unsiege instantly. Tank stutter step ftw.
Fun in a ums or something maybe. The last thing this game needs is another collossus. Lack of mobility and pushing forward methodically with well positioned siege lines is what defines mech. You gotta realize that limitations are just as important as strengths for creating dynamic, non deathbally units.
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maybe heres an idea. give thors a "haywire" mode where they lose their anti-air attack, their DPS is greatly reduced, but they have bonus haywire missiles that shred mech. so the thors could in theory shred immortal shields and no longer get countered by feedback creating a "soft counter" to immortals
people might say when the hell then how do you counter thors? well you get zealots and immortals, thors in haywire mode will be weak to zealots, then if he gets battle hellions to beat your zealots you add in collossi which perform well vs battle hellions
and immortals would still counter tanks in the 1/1/1 and as long as you combine zealots with immortals they arent "too weak" against thors
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I thought goliath siege tank combos in Brood War were a bit overpowered. Can't approach it from the air, can't approach it from the ground etc.
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On January 07 2013 10:37 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I thought goliath siege tank combos in Brood War were a bit overpowered. Can't approach it from the air, can't approach it from the ground etc.
It was certainly dominant in Tvt, but handily countered by upgraded mass muta / hydra lurk defiler from Zerg, and simple zeal goon Templar from toss (lack of mines hurts a lot).
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On January 07 2013 10:37 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I thought goliath siege tank combos in Brood War were a bit overpowered. Can't approach it from the air, can't approach it from the ground etc.
It depends on the situation but you counter this by mass expanding. It incredibly hard to max out on golliath and tanks. By the time terran get this army, you should be up 2 bases atleast and can just widdle him down as he push across the map. Yes, it is strong but for being how immobile and expensive it is, I think it a fair trade. You are thinking to much of unit X counter unit Y. Sc2 mech is not strong enough for being how immobile and expensive it is.
Edit: Zahir also pretty much covered how to deal with it
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United States4883 Posts
On January 07 2013 11:56 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 10:37 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I thought goliath siege tank combos in Brood War were a bit overpowered. Can't approach it from the air, can't approach it from the ground etc. It depends on the situation but you counter this by mass expanding. It incredibly hard to max out on golliath and tanks. By the time terran get this army, you should be up 2 bases atleast and can just widdle him down as he push across the map. Yes, it is strong but for being how immobile and expensive it is, I think it a fair trade. You are thinking to much of unit X counter unit Y. Sc2 mech is not strong enough for being how immobile and expensive it is.Edit: Zahir also pretty much covered how to deal with it
I just want to elaborate on what you said there. The biggest issue with mech is not being able to get anywhere on the map unless it's a mobile thor/hellion ball. With siege tanks involved, you practically have to have all of them in a group, slowly moving around and sieging when necessary. As a result, you never actually get anywhere because you can never permanently cover an area (which is why it's especially hard for mech to get a 4th or 5th base on most maps). That's why I believe that there's not really positional play in SC2. Either the tank needs a huge buff so that it can control space better or we just need to embrace that mech was never going to work the way it did traditionally and welcome back some form of mech walker.
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Personally, I still think:
Remove tank smart-fire, buff damage to 70 flat
Late-game upgrade for +shields to tanks
Widow mine hits ground only, supply to 1
Buff landed viking damage
Thor smaller and cheaper
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what about a unit for terren that was mainly anti air that could fire while moving but only in a short range if there were units right above it plus or minus a few hex. but if the unit was still for a certain amount of time lets say 2 seconds, its range vastly increased for the duration the unit for still. and this process starts over everytime you move the unit again
now i know this is a general idea but the numbers could be worked with. it seems to fit a general solution to alot of things people complain about new units. this unit would be a micro intensive unit. grouping them may have some benefit because of the short range but splitting them onto the edges of your mech army and near your tanks would also be a benefit. i understand its sort of like an anit air siege tank but the micro and commands could be made different enough and besides everyone seems to love the tank why not use it as bit of a template.
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That mechanic as a sort of soft siege is actually interesting, but isn't really a Terran design. Terran machines are usually unwieldy, inconvenient, and dangerous to the operator and allies. That kind of soft-siege design seems quite convenient and fluid, and feels Protoss to me.
Maybe that should be the Tempest? It has a shorter range attack until it stands still for a couple seconds, and this extends its range until it moves again? Then it has to stop and wait (not a deploy- it can still do other things, just not move) a couple seconds to extend its range again. Hold position micro would be critical- something relatively foreign to SC2 right now, except to stop your units from making you look like an idiot against siege tanks.
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On January 07 2013 03:00 Cosmos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:41 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 02:26 Lorch wrote:
It's not us that did a mistake, it's blizzard. I will never ever be able to wrap my head around how 1 week of fucking retards on reddit qqing (when only very few people where even playing the beta, let alone any really good people) can make you scratch a unit you spent 2 years on. Blizzard doesn't know what they are doing, and removing the warhound will hurt sc2 long term, maybe they'll realize by the time lotv comes around. They removed the warhound because he overlapped too much with the marauder. While I was initially against the removal, I think that the scrapping of the warhound will be good in the long term because it helps to keep each unit's roles more distinct. Also with the warhound, the already very flexible got even more stuff. Thee current approach with adding just 1.5 new units helps to fix the issue in Wol that terrans are much more exciting that the other two races. This isn't the right way tout think, you don't make a race less fun, you improve the others...
Terrans are more fun on Hots than in Wol, it's just that the other races got more additional options compared to Wol. Now the overall race flexibility is more even.
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On January 07 2013 12:23 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 11:56 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 10:37 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I thought goliath siege tank combos in Brood War were a bit overpowered. Can't approach it from the air, can't approach it from the ground etc. It depends on the situation but you counter this by mass expanding. It incredibly hard to max out on golliath and tanks. By the time terran get this army, you should be up 2 bases atleast and can just widdle him down as he push across the map. Yes, it is strong but for being how immobile and expensive it is, I think it a fair trade. You are thinking to much of unit X counter unit Y. Sc2 mech is not strong enough for being how immobile and expensive it is.Edit: Zahir also pretty much covered how to deal with it I just want to elaborate on what you said there. The biggest issue with mech is not being able to get anywhere on the map unless it's a mobile thor/hellion ball. With siege tanks involved, you practically have to have all of them in a group, slowly moving around and sieging when necessary. As a result, you never actually get anywhere because you can never permanently cover an area (which is why it's especially hard for mech to get a 4th or 5th base on most maps). That's why I believe that there's not really positional play in SC2. Either the tank needs a huge buff so that it can control space better or we just need to embrace that mech was never going to work the way it did traditionally and welcome back some form of mech walker.
It understandable if mech isnt what it is in BW and it might be like you said, impossible. But there is no way he hell is sc2 going to be better if warhound (current) is in the game. If mech is force to be nothing but thor, hellbat, and warhound (current) then we might as well not have mech. Even now, if mass thors + hellbat ever become viable, thor should be nerf again because honestly, that just terrible game play. It not just that it not the mech we truely desire but it lack any sort of skill to mass thor and hellbat and win. They are such slow unit that you simply cant micro or anything and take no skill. It worst then infestor BL because atleast with infestor BL, you have to actually spend APM to fungal. Thor hellbat is pretty much unmicroable and take very little skill to execute.
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On January 07 2013 18:25 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 12:23 SC2John wrote:On January 07 2013 11:56 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 10:37 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I thought goliath siege tank combos in Brood War were a bit overpowered. Can't approach it from the air, can't approach it from the ground etc. It depends on the situation but you counter this by mass expanding. It incredibly hard to max out on golliath and tanks. By the time terran get this army, you should be up 2 bases atleast and can just widdle him down as he push across the map. Yes, it is strong but for being how immobile and expensive it is, I think it a fair trade. You are thinking to much of unit X counter unit Y. Sc2 mech is not strong enough for being how immobile and expensive it is.Edit: Zahir also pretty much covered how to deal with it I just want to elaborate on what you said there. The biggest issue with mech is not being able to get anywhere on the map unless it's a mobile thor/hellion ball. With siege tanks involved, you practically have to have all of them in a group, slowly moving around and sieging when necessary. As a result, you never actually get anywhere because you can never permanently cover an area (which is why it's especially hard for mech to get a 4th or 5th base on most maps). That's why I believe that there's not really positional play in SC2. Either the tank needs a huge buff so that it can control space better or we just need to embrace that mech was never going to work the way it did traditionally and welcome back some form of mech walker. It understandable if mech isnt what it is in BW and it might be like you said, impossible. But there is no way he hell is sc2 going to be better if warhound (current) is in the game. If mech is force to be nothing but thor, hellbat, and warhound (current) then we might as well not have mech. Even now, if mass thors + hellbat ever become viable, thor should be nerf again because honestly, that just terrible game play. It not just that it not the mech we truely desire but it lack any sort of skill to mass thor and hellbat and win. They are such slow unit that you simply cant micro or anything and take no skill. It worst then infestor BL because atleast with infestor BL, you have to actually spend APM to fungal. Thor hellbat is pretty much unmicroable and take very little skill to execute.
Which brings back to the solution everyone wants and that is; BUFF SIEGE TANKS. The answer is so simple and their failure to consider this is appalling. If they were so concerned about early game imbalances, why not push it to later upgrade tech paths (starport requirement, research requirement), which will have no impact on all ins such as the 1 1 1.
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On January 07 2013 18:35 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:25 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 12:23 SC2John wrote:On January 07 2013 11:56 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 10:37 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I thought goliath siege tank combos in Brood War were a bit overpowered. Can't approach it from the air, can't approach it from the ground etc. It depends on the situation but you counter this by mass expanding. It incredibly hard to max out on golliath and tanks. By the time terran get this army, you should be up 2 bases atleast and can just widdle him down as he push across the map. Yes, it is strong but for being how immobile and expensive it is, I think it a fair trade. You are thinking to much of unit X counter unit Y. Sc2 mech is not strong enough for being how immobile and expensive it is.Edit: Zahir also pretty much covered how to deal with it I just want to elaborate on what you said there. The biggest issue with mech is not being able to get anywhere on the map unless it's a mobile thor/hellion ball. With siege tanks involved, you practically have to have all of them in a group, slowly moving around and sieging when necessary. As a result, you never actually get anywhere because you can never permanently cover an area (which is why it's especially hard for mech to get a 4th or 5th base on most maps). That's why I believe that there's not really positional play in SC2. Either the tank needs a huge buff so that it can control space better or we just need to embrace that mech was never going to work the way it did traditionally and welcome back some form of mech walker. It understandable if mech isnt what it is in BW and it might be like you said, impossible. But there is no way he hell is sc2 going to be better if warhound (current) is in the game. If mech is force to be nothing but thor, hellbat, and warhound (current) then we might as well not have mech. Even now, if mass thors + hellbat ever become viable, thor should be nerf again because honestly, that just terrible game play. It not just that it not the mech we truely desire but it lack any sort of skill to mass thor and hellbat and win. They are such slow unit that you simply cant micro or anything and take no skill. It worst then infestor BL because atleast with infestor BL, you have to actually spend APM to fungal. Thor hellbat is pretty much unmicroable and take very little skill to execute. Which brings back to the solution everyone wants and that is; BUFF SIEGE TANKS. The answer is so simple and their failure to consider this is appalling. If they were so concerned about early game imbalances, why not push it to later upgrade tech paths (starport requirement, research requirement), which will have no impact on all ins such as the 1 1 1.
How should TvT look with very strong siege tanks? 40 minutes turtle into 40 minutes of slow chess?
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If positional mech should be attempted to see if it is possible. If not, then make mech into something different. BW mech was defined by tank being the back bone and the slow push style. If that is not possible, then make mech into something that is different. Something that is interesting, different, and not 1-A. Perhap it would be so different that we wouldnt even address it as "mech" anymore. It just has to feels different from bio and not 1-A death ball. Maybe a heavy harassment defensive style? Maybe a aggressively expanding style? Maybe a sucidal mech army that when each unit dies they self destruct and deal small aoe damage? I dont know but just something interesting, different and feels different that isnt A-move and require some what skill to execute.
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A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them.
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Personally i belive a buff to tanks is all thats needed and may even be required in hots with the viper.
The other point the OP mentions is terrans lack of early game options and a solution could be to remove medivacs and put medics and dropships back into the game. This gives terran bio more early map presence and sustainability you can keep the dropship speed upgrade aswell. The only issue i see with it at the moment are baneling ling surrounds early on being possibly too powerfull and bio lategame getting a nerf and collosus being less effective vs T (you only need a starport for vikings), this may also increase reaper use as T has a lot more rax about and could use them as a way to get multi pronged agression to work as a pure bio force.
TLDR is
. Buff tanks in siege mode
. Get rid of medivacs bring back dropship and medic
Thoughts?
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On January 07 2013 18:57 [F_]aths wrote:
A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them.
It depends, many people actually like watching slow push style. During the time when sc2 first got release and tank marine was standard for TvZ, it was VERY exciting. TvZ was definitely the most exciting match up by far because it was also the most dynamic. Slow push style also increase skill cap of the game and make the game not a big snow ball affect. It require skill, strategy etc etc. Compare to ZvZ, a watch up of heavy micro in the beginning and then later on just come down to fungal war and a-move roach hydra (with little micro on forming concave). I would think that all BW fan would appreciate and like slow push style while most of the complaint are from the sc2.
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On January 07 2013 18:59 MarcH wrote:
Personally i belive a buff to tanks is all thats needed and may even be required in hots with the viper.
The other point the OP mentions is terrans lack of early game options and a solution could be to remove medivacs and put medics and dropships back into the game. This gives terran bio more early map presence and sustainability you can keep the dropship speed upgrade aswell. The only issue i see with it at the moment are baneling ling surrounds early on being possibly too powerfull and bio lategame getting a nerf and collosus being less effective vs T (you only need a starport for vikings), this may also increase reaper use as T has a lot more rax about and could use them as a way to get multi pronged agression to work as a pure bio force.
TLDR is
. Buff tanks in siege mode
. Get rid of medivacs bring back dropship and medic
Thoughts?
I don't think that SC2 gets better when it is partly reverted to BW.
Terran can wall himself in, preventing early scouting. He cannot have too many early options when the game should be a strategy game instead of a coinflip. And like in BW, it's not only the strategy but also the execution: Even if I know that he will do a certain strategy, I want to be required to execute my defense well.
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On January 07 2013 19:06 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:57 [F_]aths wrote:
A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them. It depends, many people actually like watching slow push style. During the time when sc2 first got release and tank marine was standard for TvZ, it was VERY exciting. TvZ was definitely the most exciting match up by far because it was also the most dynamic. Slow push style also increase skill cap of the game and make the game not a big snow ball affect. It require skill, strategy etc etc. Compare to ZvZ, a watch up of heavy micro in the beginning and then later on just come down to fungal war and a-move roach hydra (with little micro on forming concave). I would think that all BW fan would appreciate and like slow push style while most of the complaint are from the sc2.
Indeed, I remember some TvT (tank versus tank, hehe) games from earlier GSL seasons, some of them developing into a viking or even battlecruiser massacre. Those game were very exciting.
But to keep them exciting, they should be rare I think. If we can expect a tank turtle in a TvT, the game gets stale. I guess that Blizzard also is afraid of the watchability for new viewers who get confused by a tank versus tank game of chess. I hope that SC2 will not be too much driven into pure action and still allow for strategic setups with slow pushes, but those game should not happen too often.
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On January 07 2013 19:06 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:57 [F_]aths wrote:
A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them. It depends, many people actually like watching slow push style. During the time when sc2 first got release and tank marine was standard for TvZ, it was VERY exciting. TvZ was definitely the most exciting match up by far because it was also the most dynamic. Slow push style also increase skill cap of the game and make the game not a big snow ball affect. It require skill, strategy etc etc. Compare to ZvZ, a watch up of heavy micro in the beginning and then later on just come down to fungal war and a-move roach hydra (with little micro on forming concave). I would think that all BW fan would appreciate and like slow push style while most of the complaint are from the sc2.
I agree completly, a slow mech can only be a good thing for terran and SC2. The differant contrasting styles terran can use add dynamism to all their matchups and force differant styles of play from both P and Z as against an agressive bioing player they have to be safe and carefull but against a slow methodical meching player they need to be more agressive and expand more. How can that be bad for SC2?.
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EPT
